https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hX--HLDHEOU&feature=youtu.be
 For those who think, NOT COPY
RIS

Quote from Dog-One on April 30th, 2013, 11:43 PM

Quote from d3x0r on April 30th, 2013, 10:59 PM

beautiful! no problems with pistons!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHxYqnev59g

That is pretty neat.  Bet that little turbine rotor would work well for HHO too.

I noticed Roberts stresses the Thorium and alpha particles; guessing those are still fundamental to making the Papp mixture expand as it does.

The engine used air in this demo?

Quote from d3x0r on April 30th, 2013, 10:59 PM

beautiful! no problems with pistons!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHxYqnev59g

At this point in the video he claims that input power vs output power can be calculated from the evidence in the video.

I didn't see how one could do that from the information in the video.

The rotary Papp engine is a poor design…no, let me be more emphatic…an unworkable design because the feedback current cannot be produced or captured.

The Papp engine must run in a two cylinder reciprocation cycle.

The "only" perfect rotary design for the Papp-proces...:


http://www.open-source-energy.org/?tid=823&pid=9924#pid9924

So cool how that thing works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9Z4RCbTAqQ

Unless Axil is right and you need those coils around the cylinder.  Hey, if that's the case, lets power it with HHO.  ;-)  Though the engine having 16 power strokes per revolution wouldn't be any bigger than a soda can.

It's a real beaut,

only downside is that it normally consumes great amounts of fuel.

That's why its so fitting for the Papp process, that then saves extra much fuel.

And its size and weight makes it possible to give an extra boost to the next

new stuff...




and also to engines that want to run underwater....





We need to take the details out of the animations of this MYT engine and 3D print the bugger.

And then onwards to casting iron.. and then our final victorie has come..Jawohl!! wir wurden be top off ze bill und rulen ze wurlt...hahaha

To all builders,

Regarding the new rotery engine that Dan Roberts has designed. I like to prove things mathematically. Here is an engine that I figure is consuming at least 4 hourspower in Jouels.  The only output he shows is 12 volts. There is no mention of what load he has on the 12 volts.  His theory holds no basis in scientific reality! As far as I am concerned it is a wast of Bob Rohners time building it as it is only the excess electricity recovered from the buckets that makes it possible for the Papp engine to run on its own power.

Willard
Ps: I am building a Papp Event Testing Unit with push button controls so I can change the parameters at the push of a button. I shall be trying other electrodes as opposed to thoriated tungsten and various ways to enhance Ionization. I will be posting pictures when I have it in operation.

Quote from Willard Elliott on May 2nd, 2013, 07:05 AM

...The only output he shows is 12 volts. There is no mention of what load he has on the 12 volts.

Thank you for confirming what I thought I saw that prompted my prior response.

If anyone has noticed anything in the video that would allow one to determine the output power, let alone the input power, please respond.

PS:  I expect that Bob Rohner is deliberately standing outside the frame of the video and avoiding comment as much as possible because he recognizes the credit for or discredit of this particular (rotary) approach and underlying "particle mechanics" theory does not belong to him.  He is merely serving as a fabricator and technical adviser.  

The only comment I would add is the crossover energy is collected by the buckets, right?
Both heads have buckets that could collect excess energy, right?
So my question is why does it need a piston to collect excess energy?
Bob has said several times that the coils don’t do what you think they do.
This could mean they are not part of the crossover process.

It has a 9-inch diameter wheel weighing about 20 pounds and the motor is rated at 3.2 HP @ 12 volts.
So can we assume that by generating 12 volts then the output is 3.2 HP or 1.6 HP for each head?
Then 3.2 * .746 = 2.3872 KW
2387.2 / 12 V = 198.933 amps.

With output at 1.6 HP for each head he has a long way to go to get 50 HP for each head.
Even without the crossover, lets say this motor was in a car using only four 12 volt batteries and we could drive it 24 hours a day for a week and then the batteries needed recharging. Wouldn’t that be better then buying gasoline to do the same?
If the coils are needed then the heads could be made longer instead of short ones close the main body.

element 119

For those of you who missed the Bob Rohner presentation on Smart Scarecrow, here it is, no longer live:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSFBvxQIh2M

And Bob's website:  http://www.rgenergy.com/

I asked what questions were on my mind and came away learning some things that I feel are important:

• Bore and stroke dimensions -- critical

• Proper sized cap bank -- critical

• Tungsten rod gap size -- critical

• Coil around cylinder, 24 volts at 5 amps -- very important

• This is a pressure device, not so much vacuum.  The gas should however rapidly normalize back to ambient conditions after an ignition pulse.

• Any non-ferrous material usable for cylinder

• Conductive material does not heat up from Eddy Currents which may indicate the shape and vector of the magnetic field

• Proper gas mixture makes for more power and less heat, but non-perfect mixtures will work

• Ignition changes can produce motion, back EMF or both depending upon how it is adjusted

[/list]

Hopefully there are some missing clues here you have been looking for.

To all builders ,

I finally am able to bring my video to you via YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOeVrDQ606

This is my test setup and it shows no temperature increase after appearent red hot contact with smoke coming off of it. Only one frame has the light flash on it.

Willard

To all builders,

My video didn't play in  my last post so here it is again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOeVrDQ6068

Willard

Looks to me like you are getting the correct effect.  The next trick is to add the energized coil and begin tweaking your mix and ignition until you get something that produces 1000 psi burst pressure and within milliseconds reduces back down to zero.  From what Bob said, that's the sweet spot necessary to run the motor.  When you can easily burst a sealed 3 inch ABS plastic tube, you're there.

To all builders,

Here is my other video which I call capture and hold. Unlike my first video this one has the reflective cover around the crystal ball to keep the light and other radio and ultraviolet and beond inside so it cannot be dissipated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPI3FBmVbDE

Iether the Papp engine is not a neculear reaction or I have stumbled upon another entierly unrelated effect!

Willard

Quote from Dog-One on May 3rd, 2013, 12:32 AM

I asked what questions were on my mind and came away learning some things that I feel are important:

• Bore and stroke dimensions -- critical

• Proper sized cap bank -- critical

• Tungsten rod gap size -- critical

• Coil around cylinder, 24 volts at 5 amps -- very important

• This is a pressure device, not so much vacuum.  The gas should however rapidly normalize back to ambient conditions after an ignition pulse.

• Any non-ferrous material usable for cylinder

• Conductive material does not heat up from Eddy Currents which may indicate the shape and vector of the magnetic field

• Proper gas mixture makes for more power and less heat, but non-perfect mixtures will work

• Ignition changes can produce motion, back EMF or both depending upon how it is adjusted

[/list]

Hopefully there are some missing clues here you have been looking for.

Interesting video.

Still not clear about the overunity question. But i trust what Bob said on FB, he has overunity only not yet in the amounts that Papp had.

He says here that he in the beginning, put some 600 Amps through the rods and that he nowadays is glad when he reaches one tenth of that. So can we derive that his inputpower is under 60 amps?

The multiple ignitions, 3 to preferably as much as possible, and the ones after the primary one need less current / amps from the capacitor.

The link to the gaslaws and there optimum points of combustion, and the way how a capacitor discharges

The correlation between mechanical power and electricity gain from the feedbackcurrent. Even that the engine can be made to only output electricity, may give new options...

The crossover being 20% of the poweroutput in joules at his setups.

That Papp makes more sense when building it and that the gasmixer is essential, and that his patents on the mixer then also may be trusted a bit more?

============
These things i think to also find in the video.

But i don't understand what you mean with point 7, the eddy currents. I thought Bob doesn't use a cylinder that prevents the magnetic field to enter. I mean where do the eddy currents (is that induction?) hook onto to heat stuff up?


Any how a lot to digest and think through on more.

~~~~~~~~

Still the practical thing of shrinking some gas stays the first thing we have to do. Next to harvesting the first crossovercurrent

But i guess no news yet on those fronts?

Quote from FaradayEZ on May 3rd, 2013, 05:40 PM

Quote from Dog-One on May 3rd, 2013, 12:32 AM

• Conductive material does not heat up from Eddy Currents which may indicate the shape and vector of the magnetic field

[/list]

But i don't understand what you mean with point 7, the eddy currents. I thought Bob doesn't use a cylinder that prevents the magnetic field to enter. I mean where do the eddy currents (is that induction?) hook onto to heat stuff up?

The same phenomena was noticed by Sterling Allen with the Yildiz magnet motor.

If you build a standard power transformer core with solid steel for instance, the core will heat up from the Eddy Currents.  If you make the core from thin laminations that are electrically insulated from one another, the core will not heat up.

Now think about how an induction stove works.  The cooking pan is nothing more than a shorted transformer secondary, specifically designed to capture the magnetic field and turn it into heat.  Now in the case of the Papp engine, you have a magnetic field passing into and out of an aluminum cylinder.  What is keeping this cylinder from acting like an inductive stove and heating up?  The only answer can be that the magnetic field must be passing through it perpendicular as to not induce Eddy Currents, i.e. heat.  The vector of the magnetic field is going the wrong way by 90 degrees.  So... this means the magnet field IS NOT passing through the cylinder wall, it is INLINE with the cylinder wall.  The direction of flux must be running from the cylinder head to the piston concentrated in the center axis.  And what does that mean...?   I'd say it means the magnetic field is holding the plasma along that center line as well.  Remember the Primer Fields videos?  Remember those bowl shaped magnetic fields and how they contain the plasma?  Same thing is happening inside the Papp cylinder.  One bowl is the cylinder head and the other is the piston and the field strength is coming from the coil wrapped around the cylinder.

At least that's how I see it.

Quote from FaradayEZ on May 3rd, 2013, 05:40 PM

The multiple ignitions, 3 to preferably as much as possible, and the ones after the primary one need less current / amps from the capacitor.

Now this one is cool.  What is happening is this:  When the gas mix is fully compressed, it takes X joules to create the plasma.  In creating the plasma, the gas expands, the piston moves, the ignition arc goes out, the plasma ceases, piston keeps moving, pressure drops.

Now this is the cool part.

When the pressure drops to some critical point, only X/3 joules is needed to create another ignition event.  Guess what, that's exactly how much juice is left in the capacitor bank and it fires again by itself and creates another plasma.

Now if you get all the dimensions, pressures, gap size, cap bank size correct.  You can get three ignition events to happen on every power stroke, but you only need to trigger the first one.  And that is why the Papp engine demonstrated so much torque at low RPM.  I'd be will to bet if you thought this through you could come up with a combination to get ten or more ignition events per power stroke and get really massive torque at low RPM.

Keep this concept in mind:  Pressure extinguishes the plasma arc.  So immediately after the initial plasma forms and the pressure builds, the arc goes out and you get to keep whatever is left in the cap bank.  When the plasma dies down due to the pressure dropping from the piston moving, a new arc strikes by itself and the process repeats.  You can do this all the way until BDC when the pressure can't drop any further and starts again to rise.  That's your signal to start charging the cap bank back up again.  But when you start charging, you need to electrically disconnect from the spark gap or else you'll start firing again before TDC.

My recommendation for Bob is to ditch the crossover charging and only use that as a supplement to the primary charging circuit.  That way you can make an ignition system that works for a single cylinder engine and just attach the crossover charging on multi-cylinder engines to improve efficiency a little.  That way you have a fail safe on a mutli-cylinder engine--it will keep running even if you drop a cylinder.

Quote from Willard Elliott on May 3rd, 2013, 05:38 PM

To all builders,

Here is my other video which I call capture and hold. Unlike my first video this one has the reflective cover around the crystal ball to keep the light and other radio and ultraviolet and beond inside so it cannot be dissipated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPI3FBmVbDE

Iether the Papp engine is not a neculear reaction or I have stumbled upon another entierly unrelated effect!

Willard

Why does it look like the balloon is starting to inflate before the discharge, when we hear the foil make a crumpling sound?

element 119

The reason that the balloon partially inflates befor the discharge is because the closing cap on the crystal ball is a quite flexible material and as I position the tungsten rod to a point where by rotating it it will contact the ground portion of the spark plug it compresses the air within the crystal ball by a slight amount.

Willard

Quote from Willard Elliott on May 4th, 2013, 06:39 AM

The reason that the balloon partially inflates befor the discharge is because the closing cap on the crystal ball is a quite flexible material and as I position the tungsten rod to a point where by rotating it it will contact the ground portion of the spark plug it compresses the air within the crystal ball by a slight amount.

Willard

Ok that makes sense Willard thanks for explaining.

I had an impression the glass globe was glued to the head and rigid.

I think you found a interesting phenomena with the reflective cover.

element 119

Quote from Willard Elliott on May 3rd, 2013, 05:38 PM

To all builders,

Here is my other video which I call capture and hold. Unlike my first video this one has the reflective cover around the crystal ball to keep the light and other radio and ultraviolet and beond inside so it cannot be dissipated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPI3FBmVbDE

Iether the Papp engine is not a neculear reaction or I have stumbled upon another entierly unrelated effect!

Willard

From the papp patent

Quote

The chamber 5 should be substantially gas-tight; in order to facilitate the attainment of a gas-tight seal, the lower portion 7 is shown provided with a steel liner 11 preferably having a highly polished or burnished, reflecting internal surface.

This reflection of UV light is important. It keeps the gas ionized. It looks like a kind of charge insulation.

Details, details, details... the Papp engine is full of important details. I hope somebody can remember them all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflectivity

It looks like aluminum reflects UV the best.

Quote from Dog-One on May 3rd, 2013, 12:32 AM

• Conductive material does not heat up from Eddy Currents which may indicate the shape and vector of the magnetic field

[/list]

Quote from dog-One

I'd say it means the magnetic field is holding the plasma along that center line as well.

I agree that the magnetic fieldlines will run parallel to the cylinder. But then the force from them will be a circular one, not one directed directly to the center or outwards...
But that wasn't my question, i agree with what you said about heating up, and i understand that eddy currents are the same as inductioncurrents. So any material that hooks onto magnetic lines will be influenced to some amount, the lesser, the more parallel to its surfaces or so.

Quote from dog-One

Keep this concept in mind:  Pressure extinguishes the plasma arc.  So immediately after the initial plasma forms and the pressure builds, the arc goes out and you get to keep whatever is left in the cap bank.  When the plasma dies down due to the pressure dropping from the piston moving, a new arc strikes by itself and the process repeats.  You can do this all the way until BDC when the pressure can't drop any further and starts again to rise.  That's your signal to start charging the cap bank back up again.  But when you start charging, you need to electrically disconnect from the spark gap or else you'll start firing again before TDC.

My recommendation for Bob is to ditch the crossover charging and only use that as a supplement to the primary charging circuit.  That way you can make an ignition system that works for a single cylinder engine and just attach the crossover charging on multi-cylinder engines to improve efficiency a little.  That way you have a fail safe on a mutli-cylinder engine--it will keep running even if you drop a cylinder.

I agree, and the crossover can be something just to power the general charging of the buffer that can supply energy where and when needed. Like a battery.

Say Dog,

Do you already feel some urge to try your hand at the noble gases? I mean, you have the ignition means for it.... ;)

Quote from Willard Elliott on May 3rd, 2013, 05:38 PM

To all builders,

Here is my other video which I call capture and hold. Unlike my first video this one has the reflective cover around the crystal ball to keep the light and other radio and ultraviolet and beond inside so it cannot be dissipated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPI3FBmVbDE

Iether the Papp engine is not a neculear reaction or I have stumbled upon another entierly unrelated effect!

Willard

Yep, interesting find.
One side wants to let the mix collapse early and so give another/multiple ignition, whilst this appliance will prolong the expansion.

Hmm

Quote from FaradayEZ on May 5th, 2013, 06:46 AM

Say Dog,

Do you already feel some urge to try your hand at the noble gases? I mean, you have the ignition means for it.... ;)

What I would like to do initially (not anytime soon though) is:

• get a three inch diameter clear PVC tube, five inches long

• seal both ends

• drill and tap one end for spark plug

• drill and tap the other end for a fill/pressure tube

• fill it with Argon

• wrap a large bobbin with 1000 turns or so of 24 ga mag wire

• put the coil around the cylinder

• energize the coil to about five amps

• fire plasma spark

• see if I can blow the darn thing to pieces

[/list]
I'm still not at all sure how to build that kind of pressure.  If I could get that far, then the next trick would be to figure out how to get the gas(es) to rapidly normalize back to ambient pressure, just not too rapidly that I can't see it.

Still a lot to learn.  I wish I could convince Bob to invite me out to his shop for a couple of weeks to get some hands-on experience.

Quote from Dog-One on May 5th, 2013, 12:25 PM

Still a lot to learn.  I wish I could convince Bob to invite me out to his shop for a couple of weeks to get some hands-on experience.

Dog-One - have you asked Bob if you can go see him? He might require an NDA but he's pretty hospitable - he invited me last year before he knew me. I'd like to visit him myself, but just costs too much from here. Note that he's now got a crowdfunding drive on at http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/gyrokinetic-plasma-engine so may be a wee bit overstretched right now.

Quote from Dog-One on May 5th, 2013, 12:25 PM

What I would like to do initially (not anytime soon though) is:

• get a three inch diameter clear PVC tube, five inches long

• seal both ends

• drill and tap one end for spark plug

• drill and tap the other end for a fill/pressure tube

• fill it with Argon

• wrap a large bobbin with 1000 turns or so of 24 ga mag wire

• put the coil around the cylinder

• energize the coil to about five amps

• fire plasma spark

• see if I can blow the darn thing to pieces

[/list]
I'm still not at all sure how to build that kind of pressure.  If I could get that far, then the next trick would be to figure out how to get the gas(es) to rapidly normalize back to ambient pressure, just not too rapidly that I can't see it.

There are easier ways to build a bomb.:/ Say, why do you need a bomb? Or wish to build a new implosion/expansion plasma motor? Isn't a noble gas motor complicated? Tanks, pressure-control, Exhaust-system, plasma/gas control, where to get the gases from on the fly/trip + electricity for light and instrumentation or at least smaller motors for window wipes required anyway. So why not a electricity only system - much easier and more robust. (Unless driving through the  Van-Allen-Belt or solare flares ... :))

Wait, perhaps light could be done with noble gases too. So a noble-gas only system. Okay, if so, I'm convinced. ;)

Quote from jonardaron on May 5th, 2013, 08:04 PM

There are easier ways to build a bomb.:/ Say, why do you need a bomb? Or wish to build a new implosion/expansion plasma motor? Isn't a noble gas motor complicated? Tanks, pressure-control, Exhaust-system, plasma/gas control, where to get the gases from on the fly/trip + electricity for light and instrumentation or at least smaller motors for window wipes required anyway. So why not a electricity only system - much easier and more robust. (Unless driving through the  Van-Allen-Belt or solare flares ... :))

Wait, perhaps light could be done with noble gases too. So a noble-gas only system. Okay, if so, I'm convinced. ;)

True, i don't understand also why building a bomb will proof much, but for the rest of your noble engine remarks....you clearly don't grasp the concept yet Jonardaron...

I suggest you look at some video's over at bob rohners site, or read more in this popper thread, the noble gas engine doesn't consume noble gas!