Russ,
H2 + Cl2 ?
Chlorine and Hydrogen is somewhat similar to Oxygen and Hydrogen.  If you don't have a high enough concentration or an intimate enough mixing nothing much will happen.  The troubling thing is that while hydrogen and oxygen require a spark or ignition source in order to get going, hydrogen and chlorine do NOT.  The Cl-Cl bond is pretty weak and the Chlorine molecules are easily broken apart into free radicals.  These radicals rapidly attack the hydrogen molecules and provide enough energy to break apart other chlorine molecules and form more HCl.  This leads to a chain reaction commonly known as an explosion.  The amount of energy needed to get this reaction going is so small that simple visible light in the blue end of the spectrum is enough to set it off.  If a test tube filled with equal parts H2 and Cl2 is stoppered in a dark room, if you shine a blue light onto the tube, it will explode.  
Large hydrogen-chlorine explosions reference:
http://www.kcaia.or.kr/upload/info05/download.asp?filename=1&nID=17000
Chan

Hi Russ , Chan , Remember that Papp only put 10 cc of mix in the cannon and 3 cc in the cylinders in the roser engine . I'm thinking you can vaccum the popper and may be put a small amount of helium and or argon . Put 1 or 2 cc's of deoxed water . last add 1 or 2 cc's of chlorine gas . After test vaccum it again sending all gases to the out doors but don't breath it for sure .I think every one has been lookyng for the answer in the wrong place . Nobody said it would be easy . The research goes on ED
PS disconnect the capators completely .

To Russ:
Reading your latest post,I'm confuse,it seems that in your youtube videos you were successful with noble gases ,H2 and air like Papp and Bob Rohner. We obviously have some kind of nuclear reaction. Why would you use H2+Cl2 and make a chemical reaction? or are you looking to some kind of catalyze for the nuclear reaction?

Recent experiments in superconductivity should concern the people who want to understand what is happening in a LENR lattice.

http://phys.org/news/2013-03-electrons-cuprate-superconductors-defy-convention.html#ajTabs

Since superconductivity and LENR have much in common, this new discovery could make life for the LENR theorist very difficult.

In superconductivity, the Luttinger theorem is being violated.

In physics, the Luttinger's theorem states that the number of electrons in a material is the same as the number of electrons in all of its atoms added together. Electrons are the sub-atomic particles that carry the current in a conductive material. Much-studied conducting materials, such as metals and semiconductors, hold true to the theorem.


From the superconductor experimental data, the experimenters tested it and indeed found discrepancies between the measured charge and the number of mobile electrons in cuprate superconductors, defying Luttinger.

This discrepancy increased in proportion to the density of the measured charge.

"This result is telling us that the physics cannot be described by electrons alone," the experimenter said. "This means that the cuprates are even weirder than previously thought: Something other than electrons carries the current."


Now the researchers are exploring possible candidates for current-carriers, particularly a novel kind of excitation called unparticles.

There are a growing number of physicists that believe that unparticles could be real.

In addition, a new math to describe unparticles is being developed.

Now, these physicists have tried to place constraints on what unparticles might be so that physicists might have an idea of where to look for them in new experiments, notably in the Large Hadron Collider.


In LENR, in some systems including the Rossi type reactor, the Papp engine, the Plasmatron, and the Keshe reactor. All show signs that more electrons come out of the system then go into them.

This production of extra electrons out of the vacuum energy has concerned me greatly.

Where are these extra electrons coming from?

There also seems to be a decoupling (delocalization) of charge, spin, and mass in the waves of electrons as these waves flow around on the surface of the lattice.

It just may be that when the vacuum energy is tapped in these systems, the heavy concentration of free electrons operating in a lattice taps into the unparticle generation mechanism and creates unparticles that decay into electrons.

The Unparticle for the electron (unelectron) is not all that different from the electron, except that it demonstrates unparticle behavior and, subsequently, does not fit in with the Standard Model of particle physics. While a particle has discrete parameters, the Unelectrons’ parameters are continuous. In this sense, the unelectron is itself a continuum, and can be thought of as a collection of many parts of electrons, each carrying a fraction of the electrons total value.

It is like electrons condense out of the vacuum energy from an electron vapor of a superposition of electron states made real by the presence of other electrons.


According to theory, these unparticles are scale invariant. This means that unparticles look the same at high energies and charge as they do at low energies and charge.

This means that they have factional electron parameters like mass, charge and spin; this fractal dimensionality to describe unparticles.

If unparticles are happening in LENR, the LENR theories have a hard row to hoe.

So far in the world of the standard model of particle physics, unparticle physics does not seem to address any urgent problems, and as such its discovery is not generally anticipated. However, these novel happenings in superconductivity and these other various LENR systems might make considering novel possibilities worthwhile when you are searching for the unknown.

To quote Louis Pasteur, ‘Chance favors the prepared mind.’

Papp update 20...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsvmGcGRf8E


my now "TOY" for measuring the distance... ( in the video)

funny thing is its this measures 6" and that's the travail of the piston i'm using... :) oh how things fall in place :)

here is the photo i talk about in this video. Interesting...
 [attachment=3553]

the goal of this test was to get the spark to work with the standard ignition coils. more testing is needed... i have some ideas that may help the consistency of the pop...

i should note that i was using a max of 350J where normally i was using 1Kj or so... just an FYI on the heat not rising in the wires and the like. more testing needed... but it was good to here that POP! i get a little giddy inside every time! musty be the HV and electromagnetism in the air!

enjoy, ~Russ

Ps. Still work to do on this circuit. Just trying some stuff and showing what happens!

Next time to add some caps to the HV so I get a nasty RF! ;)

Quote from Axil on March 21st, 2013, 12:25 PM

Now the researchers are exploring possible candidates for current-carriers, particularly a novel kind of excitation called unparticles.

There are a growing number of physicists that believe that unparticles could be real.

In addition, a new math to describe unparticles is being developed.

Now, these physicists have tried to place constraints on what unparticles might be so that physicists might have an idea of where to look for them in new experiments, notably in the Large Hadron Collider.

Not to take away credibillity, but i think it sooow old science to solve problems with inventing new particles and new forces. And those are always even harder to find and need more funding and energy to get proven existence somehow.
Breaking, smashing stuff, an old kind of frontier war like, oppressing testosterone way of looking at nature. Hit it with your largest hammer science?

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 22nd, 2013, 09:08 PM

Papp update 20...

Nice work Russ. Good to see that less joules still work. Maybe the ozone made you giddy.
Would be nice to also have a thing that can measure the force of the popp, maybe even in 2 ways, up and down. Some oil replacement? Like a shock-demper from a car?

Alongside the measuring rod for distance, you would then have the power readings, onces the schockobserver is callibrated in some way.

 Russ - nice to see it's almost warm enough to work without fingers and noses dropping off. Perhaps the spark electrodes need to be biased somewhat, so that one will spark to one electrode and the other sparks to the other. The gaps probably only need to be enough to withstand your 620V maximum (maybe the odd 1/2 mm) which would leave more voltage between the HV spark to jump the main gap better. To increase the impedance for the spark itself, you could use a saturable inductor, wound with thick wire on a very thin ferrite toroid. At low (spark) currents it would have maybe 2mH inductance (adjust for spark frequency), yet at the high-current pop it would have only a few microhenries and thus would not slow the start of the pop. This arrangement should make the spark jump between the main electrodes every time, and hopefully pop every time you fire the spark (I've had this going at 30 or so pops/second). I've tested this idea on small-scale, so should work for you on the higher energies.

That bit was cross-posted on the FB page....

Further bits are the EMP and the bang itself - you really need to tape the high-current wires together or twist them to reduce the loop area for the EMP you're generating. No proof, but I've a suspicion that it's not healthy. Ear defenders are also a very good idea, otherwise you'll tend to lose the ability to hear high-frequencies as the otoliths in your inner ears shatter with this sort of abuse - I know this having done a lot of hammering at various times. Even with the 100mJ or so I've been popping with, the sound is very sharp and makes a ringing in my ears. You're using over a thousand times more energy - it's got to hurt.

Hey guys, I have something I would like to help with

I am using muscle testing (Applied Kinesiology) to discover what types of radiation come off of the popper and how harmful they are to us and Russ. This harm/"Stress on the body" is determined by stating how stressful  "x" is to the person and by giving it a rating out of 10.  With Muscle Testing there are certain things I can obviously not ask, but with proper intent and questions the system is deadly accurate with factual stuff. Keep in mind i know nothing about radiation.

This is a list of radiations I have comprised. Keep in mind that if there is a type of radiation I am missing in the list I will get the one that is closest to it. I believe these would be all types that are relevant.
-Alpha Radiation
-Beta Radiation
-Epsilon
-EMF
-Gamma Radiation
-Neutron Radiation
- X Radiation

#1 When Russ is firing the system with ambient air, either sealed or open.
-The system produces a EMF discharge that is either safe or harmful depending on the frequency used and how much energy is discharged (also another variable that I am unaware of here). In its worst state case the maximum "Stress" it would cause on Russ' body is 2/10 which is decent (Noticeable effect on health with exposure to over 1 hour of constant firing). The stress would go to 0/10 if russ was over 10" away.
-No other forms of radiation present
-Titanium Rods emit a harmful vapor when system is not sealed. This vapor has a stress of 10/10 on Russ' body, Ventilation should be used!!!
-Tungsten are fine

#2 When Russ is firing the system sealed with piston and filled with 5 gas mixture (UNTREATED).
-The system emits Epsilon or Beta radiation depending of firing method which spans about 12'. When russ is outside of 12' radius the stress is 0/10. When Russ is inside the radius the stress is 3-10/10.(Noticeable effect on health with exposure to over 3 days of constant firing)
-The system emits very small amounts of Gamma radiation which spans a radius of 12'. When russ is outside of 12' radius the stress is 0/10. When Russ is inside the radius the stress is 2-8/10. (No noticeable effect on health)

So things seem to really vary a lot when when an aspect of the system is changed.



I "hypothesize" that as the system gets more refined and maybe if the gas gets processed that there will be little to no forms of radiation present

Quote from atanguy on March 21st, 2013, 09:58 AM

To Russ:
Reading your latest post,I'm confuse,it seems that in your youtube videos you were successful with noble gases ,H2 and air like Papp and Bob Rohner. We obviously have some kind of nuclear reaction. Why would you use H2+Cl2 and make a chemical reaction? or are you looking to some kind of catalyze for the nuclear reaction?

The original patent mention de oxygenated water mineral oil and chlorine so electrolysis may have taken place which produced hydrogen and maybe also chlorine gas which would be triggered by the UV from either the plasma or simply the spark. Also in the first patent I believe more than one spark was triggered per cycle.

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 22nd, 2013, 09:08 PM

Papp update 20...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsvmGcGRf8E

my now "TOY" for measuring the distance... ( in the video)

Some comments Russ:

Measuring...  You're a technician Russ, how about just an array of photo diodes with a rod that covers up the light path from bottom to top as the rod raises.  Seems pretty easy and would be extremely fast.  Certainly you could capture not only the maximum height but the profile as well.

Popper...  More simple design yes, still more complex than needed.  What you have is essentially my booster cap circuit except for two things:  1. I only need two electrodes, not four.  2.  My setup pops every single time, not once-in-while.  And it will pop up to 30 times per second without breaking a sweat.

One other note.  If you want to have your own custom CDI ignition and choose to use a MOSFET, use a MOSFET driver chip and your MOSFET won't get nearly so hot.  The reason is, this driver chip will slam the MOSFET on or off and not allow it to drag through the transition area--that's where all the heat gets generated.

Anyway, looking good.  Now back to running my Genset on water...  :P

To Dog-One
Did you publish your booster cap circuit somewhere?

Quote from atanguy on March 23rd, 2013, 07:14 PM

To Dog-One
Did you publish your booster cap circuit somewhere?

Roger that.
http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=3216

If you happen to follow along in the most time consuming project
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=883

You will see where I've pretty much mastered the booster cap mechanism.  For my purposes, 24 Joules per pulse is plenty sufficient; anything higher will blow my spark plug apart, but the concept can scale to however much energy you need and how fast you need it.

The "what was that?" was a triple shot after a long charging time.  I think I recall Bob saying something about getting multiple firings if there was too much energy in the cap bank and the first pop didn't discharge enough but left things in a state for another pop.  You got 2 such phenomena if my guess is right.

Quote from Dog-One on March 23rd, 2013, 07:41 PM

Quote from atanguy on March 23rd, 2013, 07:14 PM

To Dog-One
Did you publish your booster cap circuit somewhere?

Roger that.
http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=3216

If you happen to follow along in the most time consuming project
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=883

You will see where I've pretty much mastered the booster cap mechanism.  For my purposes, 24 Joules per pulse is plenty sufficient; anything higher will blow my spark plug apart, but the concept can scale to however much energy you need and how fast you need it.

A piece of video of that firing with 24 joules and 30 pops per sec would be nice to watch Dog.
And then we also can see how big of a pop you get with your way of doing this.

Secondly if you calculate with the 24 joules, and don't have a feedbackcurrent, how close are you then with your generator to self sustain the action?

To Dog-1
And then we also can see how big of a pop you get with your way of doing this.>
I Second,
Also did you use a water mist to get it going?

regards just testingHello everyone.My nickname is Ris and I am from Croatia so please forgive me on my English.I like this forum Congratulations to everyone for working together with contributions for a better future.I am now for the first time on a forum so please sorry if I make a mistake or something else most of the words understand but not every word.I have some knowledge of which could possibly help to make something good                                                                                            Greetings Russ and everything he does it is a noble thing.I have one question for Russ Do you ​​known amount of energy needed to a noble gas goes  into plasma  by volume in joul"s-or someone else.

Here's an update video that I posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsvmGcGRf8E

Here is Bob's two cylinder starting to fire. You can actually see that it will take off without the Starter motor running. Absolutely amazing. I noticed many of things in this video but don't have the time right now to write down all of my thoughts... Interestingly enough I have most of the parts at my house to actually build such a device. The gear down motor and controller I actually already have the rest of it looks like just machined parts. Simply amazing! I wish I could work on this full time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVdoJbv0nYM

Amazing bob thank you for posting this!

~Russ

Papp engine experimentation is like baseball.

It’s another season and springtime means new Papp engine experiments.

The weather is warming up and people interested in the Papp engine are able to conduct new experiments in their garages without enduring the pain inflected by the cold.

Both Russ and Bob Rohner have new videos out as shown above.



Rohner Group Current Progress on Twin Engine


Update 20 NGE Papp: "THE PLAN" & Ignition Set Up Test with Papp Timmer &…

The most impressive is the video that Bob R made. And even more important is the fact that Bob now realizes that the feedback current is what the Papp engine is all about.

It looks like Bob Rohner has moved far ahead of the pack with his two cylinder engine design.

I hope he came to this fundamental realization by looking at the open source web site.

The race is on, I am sure Russ will try to make up ground in the next few weeks as the weather warms. Russ is a warm weather type of guy and hates the cold. He does his best work when it is hot.

Like the twelfth root of two those pops are music to our ears.

To find out why Papp put that center screw on his piston try suspending a ball bearing between the 4 electrodes.

Looks like Bob is making good progress.
 
When will we get to see your 2 cylinder popper?  ;)

Quote from atanguy on March 21st, 2013, 09:58 AM

To Russ:
Reading your latest post,I'm confuse,it seems that in your youtube videos you were successful with noble gases ,H2 and air like Papp and Bob Rohner. We obviously have some kind of nuclear reaction. Why would you use H2+Cl2 and make a chemical reaction? or are you looking to some kind of catalyze for the nuclear reaction?

just pondering ideas... one wont know till they try... although i don't see me trying this one for a while...

~Russ

Quote from simonderricutt on March 23rd, 2013, 04:55 AM

Further bits are the EMP and the bang itself - you really need to tape the high-current wires together or twist them to reduce the loop area for the EMP you're generating. No proof, but I've a suspicion that it's not healthy. Ear defenders are also a very good idea, otherwise you'll tend to lose the ability to hear high-frequencies as the otoliths in your inner ears shatter with this sort of abuse - I know this having done a lot of hammering at various times. Even with the 100mJ or so I've been popping with, the sound is very sharp and makes a ringing in my ears. You're using over a thousand times more energy - it's got to hurt.

yes, i need to try this wrapping/twisting of wires. its has been mentioned before. the main prob is the leads come out at 180degreese from each other at about 1.5-2 feet from each other. ( you can bob dose this in his demo, or at least for some of it...)

ear plugs, yes. i was looking for some at the time i did not have any. just held my ears for the moment.

i still have aot of testing to do with the HV / LV circuit... spacing cap discharge ect. more to come on testing those different ideas.

thanks!!! ~Russ

Quote from jabowery on March 23rd, 2013, 09:20 PM

The "what was that?" was a triple shot after a long charging time.  I think I recall Bob saying something about getting multiple firings if there was too much energy in the cap bank and the first pop didn't discharge enough but left things in a state for another pop.  You got 2 such phenomena if my guess is right.

good thoughts. yeah, but even when the caps are fully charged i still only get one pop. it was like the thing just hit just right... i think with more testing we will see what happen...

~Russ

Is there anyone on that side who hear me.Nevermind I guess someone will hear.Update 11 or 12 NGE Russ says he uses about 800 joule for spark.1kwh=3600-kj or 1kj per second It means power of 1 kw generator will give every second 1 kj.For example some minimum number of ignition per cylinder per minute should be 2000 in minut so you need  1600 kj per minute so It's a lot of energy I found this information on the wiki and steam proportions something like that.My intention is to help Russ because not everyone can know everything but if we  combine our minds think we can do that this engine works.And I think it's a lot easier to do something if we have a valid and realistic data(Better yet a finished product that we can use in this project)I do not want to be too smart but I think I'm right.So what do you say.and one important thing we can lie on the videos and other items, but the math and physics do not lie.

Quote from Axil on March 24th, 2013, 08:22 PM

Papp engine experimentation is like baseball.

It’s another season and springtime means new Papp engine experiments.

The weather is warming up and people interested in the Papp engine are able to conduct new experiments in their garages without enduring the pain inflected by the cold.

Both Russ and Bob Rohner have new videos out as shown above.



Rohner Group Current Progress on Twin Engine


Update 20 NGE Papp: "THE PLAN" & Ignition Set Up Test with Papp Timmer &…

The most impressive is the video that Bob R made. And even more important is the fact that Bob now realizes that the feedback current is what the Papp engine is all about.

It looks like Bob Rohner has moved far ahead of the pack with his two cylinder engine design.

I hope he came to this fundamental realization by looking at the open source web site.

The race is on, I am sure Russ will try to make up ground in the next few weeks as the weather warms. Russ is a warm weather type of guy and hates the cold. He does his best work when it is hot.

I think that Bob is familiar with the feedbackcurrent from the start. He even got it loose and redirected it to an electromotor when doing his single popper.

What his dual video tells me is that he has not got the papp mixture of gasses the papp way..meaning prepped the right way.

And that's the only secret that really counts. So he is not ahead of us. He is ahead in the way that he knows where the feedbackcurrent is to be found, he is ahead in knowing a bit why and how to use the magnets. But that's almost all of his being ahead.

New to me is that he now switched to normal sparkplugs. (edit..13 mei 2013)....looked like it at the time but are not, still tungsten rods)
And new to me is how Bob sees a connection between electrical input and mechanical output and the balancing of them both.

But i predict that the winner will have had excess to a gaschromatograph

At all,

Please try to refrain from using the word race, and anything that pertains with and to competition.

I do not see this as a competition. It really disturbs me in general when I read people competing unless it's for fun.

This applies to all things that I do. I see that competition can be a good thing as it drives us forward but at the same time It can put up walls.

I do not want Bob or anyone else thinking that this is a race or competition. Yes we all strive to be the first but at the same time it's only teamwork that will make this happen.

I just wanted to bring that up to let everyone know how I feel

Carry-on.

Ris,

 We hear you. Sometimes it can be days before people get responses. Thanks for your contribution and I believe we can use less energy but were going to need to figure out more things all a work in progress

~Russ