Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on June 1st, 2013, 11:50 PM

Quote from element 119 on May 29th, 2013, 12:04 PM

Quote from Axil on May 29th, 2013, 08:17 AM

Quote from element 119 on May 29th, 2013, 06:25 AM

Due to the residue build up inside the cylinder any attempts to provide a highly polished surface to reflect light in a NGE is a waste of time.

So in my opinion I say, move along please. ;)

Besides you don’t really want the gas to stay expanded for a long time, this would hinder the piston from returning to BDC.

Interesting effect but better left to scientific study by a research lab.

element 119

In the Papp engine design as patented, the polished walls of the cylinder would have been wiped clean of residue by the movement of the piston. This would keep the walls of the cylinder bright.

Yes true but the main pop takes place when the piston is closest to the electrodes and therefore the shinny part would not be a factor.

More pops when the piston is approaching BDC in the shinny part of the cylinder may hinder the piston returning if the gas stays expanded.

See Bob’s video about the braking effect of the gas staying expanded to long.  

Just my opinion.

element 119



Note I edited 1st post to read TDC instead of BDC. Sorry for the confusion!!!

hummm. well I agree that we still don't know. lol

papp patent stated to do so Willard showed some good stuff but i it goo i don't know... :) more testing needed.

also FYI element 119, test and post results. try it all. thats what its about. so i will post every and all data i can so theses type of videos that may not be helpful to some will be helpful to all in the long run... :)

more to come. i did not have the time i thought i would for 22. more on 23 hope to "spill the beans" so to speak if all falls in place this week. a lot of work in the background happening... all takes time so we will get there.

Blessings! ~Russ

Don’t get me wrong testing and reporting results is good and much appreciated. ;)

I’m just saying that as far as a working engine goes the residue build up in the main part of the chamber would hinder any high reflective attempts. If a gas mix that does not leave behind a residue can be found then this may be a factor. Until then not much can be gained from this endeavor.

Time may be better spent finding minimum input for maximum power output. If time is an issue for you then why spend it in a direction with no beneficial results to come form it?

No matter what good results can be found from a high reflective surface, what good is it if the residue problem is not solved?

Logic would say max expansion at TDC with min expansion near BDC, residue build up would hinder this process.

Keep in mind the reason for exhaust valves in standard engine is to get rid of the expanded gas, in a system with no exhaust then keeping the gas expanded is bad.

Just my opinion!!!

element 119

Hi Russ , Great info in your 22 vidio . I wonder if you drop the capatance down to say 2 mf (like papp's ) and varie the voltage as much as your eqipment lets you do .Should be interesting . even if it not going the right way. I'm getting closer to testing my chlorine idea . got my distribtor and brush block made plus a 555 circiut to increase the freq. of the glideing  arc . Got a coating of fiber glass rosin iside the head and the top of the piston .Hope to order a total seal ring soon .The research goes on . Ed  PS Thanks to KC Dias who installed the vacuum port and septum for me . Still have more time than money .

Quote

Time may be better spent finding minimum input for maximum power output. If time is an issue for you then why spend it in a direction with no beneficial results to come form it?

Ahhhhh! Now your heading down the path I have been traveling.  

First question, did you learn anything from update 22? If yes what, if no we would never know the answer to question if answers yes.


Question 2, if you have a car but no tires. What do you do with the car in the mean time while the tires are in the mail? Nothing? No! You do what ever you can to make that car shine or tune it the best you can while it sits!! Try new fules! What ever!  

;)

Here's the deal. We are getting closer and it hads been a lot of work, but how can we tell it are getting more Efficient If we have no way to measure anything? (hint hint)  Guessing how far it jumps off the table?

;)

Time time time patients is the key.  

Go re-watch  update number 21... The second installment is coming. We just are having a lot to do to get it all up and running.

No worries element. We will get there.  

"Good things take time"

Hang in there bro! ;)

Blessings!

~Russ

Quote from edxhemphill on June 2nd, 2013, 08:12 AM

Hi Russ , Great info in your 22 vidio . I wonder if you drop the capatance down to say 2 mf (like papp's ) and varie the voltage as much as your eqipment lets you do .Should be interesting . even if it not going the right way. I'm getting closer to testing my chlorine idea . got my distribtor and brush block made plus a 555 circiut to increase the freq. of the glideing  arc . Got a coating of fiber glass rosin iside the head and the top of the piston .Hope to order a total seal ring soon .The research goes on . Ed  PS Thanks to KC Dias who installed the vacuum port and septum for me . Still have more time than money .

Fantastic stuff!

Yes will test more stuff. Low high ECT! Alot to do!

Keep up the good work Ed!!!

~Russ

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on June 2nd, 2013, 09:46 AM

Quote

Time may be better spent finding minimum input for maximum power output. If time is an issue for you then why spend it in a direction with no beneficial results to come form it?

Ahhhhh! Now your heading down the path I have been traveling.  

First question, did you learn anything from update 22? If yes what, if no we would never know the answer to question if answers yes.


Question 2, if you have a car but no tires. What do you do with the car in the mean time while the tires are in the mail? Nothing? No! You do what ever you can to make that car shine or tune it the best you can while it sits!! Try new fules! What ever!  

;)

Here's the deal. We are getting closer and it hads been a lot of work, but how can we tell it are getting more Efficient If we have no way to measure anything? (hint hint)  Guessing how far it jumps off the table?

;)

Time time time patients is the key.  

Go re-watch  update number 21... The second installment is coming. We just are having a lot to do to get it all up and running.

No worries element. We will get there.  

"Good things take time"

Hang in there bro! ;)

Blessings!

~Russ

Update –22 was fantastic! We always learn something from testing even if the results are bad.

But I feel I should point a downfall with going in a wrong direction. I’m sure you agree that for the long-term effect of a running engine the residue build up would hamper performance of a highly reflective chamber.

I’m not faulting you for doing the test I’m just saying in my opinion the idea of a highly reflective chamber would be a short term effect, so little benefit in a long running engine.

I’m not impatient I’m just saying don’t waste a lot time on this if other testing can be done. ;)

Press on bro.!

We’re still with ya. :)

Going live tonight?

element 119

Quote from element 119 on June 2nd, 2013, 12:44 PM

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on June 2nd, 2013, 09:46 AM

Quote

Time may be better spent finding minimum input for maximum power output. If time is an issue for you then why spend it in a direction with no beneficial results to come form it?

Ahhhhh! Now your heading down the path I have been traveling.  

First question, did you learn anything from update 22? If yes what, if no we would never know the answer to question if answers yes.


Question 2, if you have a car but no tires. What do you do with the car in the mean time while the tires are in the mail? Nothing? No! You do what ever you can to make that car shine or tune it the best you can while it sits!! Try new fules! What ever!  

;)

Here's the deal. We are getting closer and it hads been a lot of work, but how can we tell it are getting more Efficient If we have no way to measure anything? (hint hint)  Guessing how far it jumps off the table?

;)

Time time time patients is the key.  

Go re-watch  update number 21... The second installment is coming. We just are having a lot to do to get it all up and running.

No worries element. We will get there.  

"Good things take time"

Hang in there bro! ;)

Blessings!

~Russ

Update –22 was fantastic! We always learn something from testing even if the results are bad.

But I feel I should point a downfall with going in a wrong direction. I’m sure you agree that for the long-term effect of a running engine the residue build up would hamper performance of a highly reflective chamber.

I’m not faulting you for doing the test I’m just saying in my opinion the idea of a highly reflective chamber would be a short term effect, so little benefit in a long running engine.

I’m not impatient I’m just saying don’t waste a lot time on this if other testing can be done. ;)

Press on bro.!

We’re still with ya. :)

Going live tonight?

element 119

:)

im glad you posted your thoughts. its a good thing to voice your thoughts to try to keep us on track.

no live show this week. worked all weekend 2-12 hr shifts and ran lights at chirch from 7:30 am to 1 pm between shifts could not sleep tried to go to bed at 3:30 fell asleep some time after 4 and back up at 5:30 to leave for work... :)  Friday was my 5 year adversity so it has been cray busy. running on 1.5 hrs of sleep for the weekend... :) the rest of the week was not any better. i don't think i sleep 8 hrs all week... EGH

all most time for me to crash hard!!!

so i'm working with Tim on the second installment we are working hard to get everything set up and working for some basic testing but its seeming to be a bit more difficult than we thought and we have been having a lot of problems... just takes time to work out.

thanks!!!

~Russ

On the shiny surface...

Russ could just put the aluminum foil on the inside of his experiment. (instead of buying and waiting for some crystal...)

If we extend the piston walls to cover the whole cylinder at TDC, it could still wipe the surface clean and shiny...

If we aint sure yet how much shiny can have an influence..its still worth experimenting with...even if longterm shinyness is hard to reach.

Quote from FaradayEZ on June 4th, 2013, 04:40 AM

On the shiny surface...

Russ could just put the aluminum foil on the inside of his experiment. (instead of buying and waiting for some crystal...)

If we extend the piston walls to cover the whole cylinder at TDC, it could still wipe the surface clean and shiny...

If we aint sure yet how much shiny can have an influence..its still worth experimenting with...even if longterm shinyness is hard to reach.

That’s true!

He could install small rotary wiper blades on the piston and under the electrodes to keep them clean. That should make for a good heat engine. Pop the piston moves but can’t come back because of the pressure.

Not impatient, just making a case for the negative effects of a shinny chamber.

I recommend making everything out of black anodized aluminum for an engine. The blacker the better!!!

Then increase the pops between TDC and BDC.

However he could have a crossover tube port that opens when the piston reaches BDC and that sends the extra pressure to the other cylinder at TDC.  Kind of like a steam engine!!!

But in the end it’s true all testing has some value and should be explored.

element 119

Quote from element 119 on June 4th, 2013, 12:30 PM

Quote

Pop the piston moves but can’t come back because of the pressure.

Quote

But in the end it’s true all testing has some value and should be explored.

element 119

If shinyness would keep the clusters divided i.e. unclustered, then thats a good new inside in how things work.
Next would be to find which elements in light or radiation are to blame. Like in our case things point towards infrared.

So with an experiment that can't make an engine run, we find out things to increase the coming engine performance already.

We need confirmation b4 we blackening things. Who knows if other radiation works the other way round? In your guide we would not look any further...

But i agree there seem to be more important testings to wait around.

Wanna help? Make gasclusters and let someone with a popper test it. (thats my fastest thought route to success.)

;)






 

Thx Russ for another popper update.

...................

My thoughts after viewing:

Why does the voltage meter first jump into the negative quite heavily b4 it settles at some small amount of volts?

Is the system reacting like the spikings in a magnetic field, reaction and counterreaction?

Wasn´t the use of a capacitor earlier a bad idea cause of the form of the currents?

Can we harvest more current with more lines towards the meter, from a couple of points?

I still think that after 10 seconds of having your gasbottle upright, you only take helium out... ***
maybe put the needle in, turn the flasc by hand while opening the valve?

...................

I agree with the conclusions..its gas expanding and localised heat from the arc..

I thought that about 20% was to be gained with the feedbackcurrent, and it may differ with the amount of work the system does.

At this point i don´t have a new insight for an extra test. It would make live easier if you could get input-output readings automaticly.

Maybe the misfiring (fault) also takes some power out of the well-firings?

We can´t compare it with earlier poppings, only by feeling, it feels lesser?

Well, thats my 2 cents



add 4 juli *** In case the gases are in liquide form inside the bottle, the seperation time will likely be different. The ten seconds was estimated on the viewing of the different gases in balloons (as earlier seen here in a utube video)

For some reason (a software bug) I cannot see beyond page 98 on this thread; so conversation is not possible until the bug clears itself up somehow. This bug usually does clear up eventually but it is a real pain in the butt.

In Video 23, I looked at the volt meter carefully. It looked to me like the voltage on the feedback current got into 4 digits for a split second.

Is it possible that the voltmeter is not sensitive to rapid voltage spikes?

I saw a number come up showing about 1800 on the meter in a flash.

Am I seeing things or is the meter to insensitive to properly record the feedback current spike.

If the meter is too insensitive, can a way be found to trap the maximum voltage value at the spike?

A storage scope reading would be far better.  We could go back over that in slow motion and get a pretty good feel for the feedback impulse hitting the large cap.  We would need both voltage direct and voltage via a shunt for current.  That would tell the story.

I looked at the 23 video again is stop motion and saw the meter read as high as 1892.

Use of a memory scope would be good to see the nature of the voltage spike.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_rod

Early streamer emission (ESE) theory

Quote

The controversial[34] theory of early streamer emission proposes that if a lightning rod has a mechanism producing ionization near its tip, then its lightning capture area is greatly increased. At first, small quantities of radioactive isotopes (Radium-226 or Americium-241) were used as sources of ionization[35] between 1930 and 1980, later replaced with various electrical and electronic devices. According to an early patent, since most lightning protectors' ground potentials are elevated, the path distance from the source to the elevated ground point will be shorter, creating a stronger field (measured in volts per unit distance) and that structure will be more prone to ionization and breakdown.[36]

Papp used this Radium-226 method to gather the feedback current.

The radioactive isotopes method is not now necessary, circuits that provide pre-ionization for attracting the feedback current might be developed from this lightning arrestor reference.

http://www.faircloth.info/ieeprocvol145issue5sept1998.pdf

Greetings to everyone.
I'm back After a lots of testing and it is not easy to explain what we should do but I'll try.
if we want  engine to operate we need pressure without that none engine can not work It is a fact.
So I made a simulation of the cylinder in this(http://imgur.com/r/RedditDayOf/mRO9N   ) ,on the end I placed the tire valves and I pump up pure hydrogen  to 7bar, I let go inside discharged  220 volt 300uf--7jula with the intent to blow up but nothing happens,current will not skip between electrodes,Then I reduced the pressure on 2bar and Now I have a leaps of but only 3 times,Then I once again reduced the pressure,now I have a leaps of 4 times.
Then I gave up but after a few days of thinking I realized the problem but it can not examined due to lack of equipment,maybe one of you can try.

FORMULA is---If engine operation pressure is 100bar then we need,small container 35ml(One cylinder compression ratio) filled with gases under the pressure of 10bar and shoot him with power It means finding the right power supply for skiping the spark---why 10bar because we have no ionization-- correlation(if we have ionization Then we need a little gas and reversed)


I did not everything precisely explained Leave questions and comments

Ris - as the initial pressure rises you'll need more voltage in the spark. Find out how much more using the Paschen curves for Hydrogen. You can also get this firing by making the gap smaller as the initial pressure goes up.

Quote from simonderricutt on July 8th, 2013, 06:48 AM

Ris - as the initial pressure rises you'll need more voltage in the spark. Find out how much more using the Paschen curves for Hydrogen. You can also get this firing by making the gap smaller as the initial pressure goes up.

that's my problem I do not have the equipment one of you has,so one of you should try it gap was 2mm
Paschen curves for Hydrogen  that I needed and I did not know about it thanks man with this we can calculate all.

Now you will see what one hyperactive brain can do.

A conventional petrol engine we need connect the exhaust and intake to one container-1-2 liters Then we need to remove all the air and filled with pure hydrogen and a few milliliters of plain water


principle of operation--when Reinforced spark strikes hydrogen is created plasma, temperature of plasma 6000-10000c at this temperature Water breaks down into its constituent elements which means one drop of water will increase its volume 1800 times(or 1ml=1.8l) it is enough to torn engine.
fuel--an ordinary electrolysis  Only a small amount of hydrogen is lost through the piston rings


physics--all of the above does not violate any law of thermodynamics

This is my version of the  Ris Power--- new Steam Engine design
 So it is possible but the problem is to create at least to me
Are there any suggestions and questions If anyone sees a lack says

Quote from Ris on July 8th, 2013, 09:44 AM

Now you will see what one hyperactive brain can do.

A conventional petrol engine we need connect the exhaust and intake to one container-1-2 liters Then we need to remove all the air and filled with pure hydrogen and a few milliliters of plain water


principle of operation--when Reinforced spark strikes hydrogen is created plasma, temperature of plasma 6000-10000c at this temperature Water breaks down into its constituent elements which means one drop of water will increase its volume 1800 times(or 1ml=1.8l) it is enough to torn engine.
fuel--an ordinary electrolysis  Only a small amount of hydrogen is lost through the piston rings


physics--all of the above does not violate any law of thermodynamics

This is my version of the  Ris Power--- new Steam Engine design
 So it is possible but the problem is to create at least to me
Are there any suggestions and questions If anyone sees a lack says

The key to the Papp engine is the production and release of high voltage. The Papp engine can be thought as a pair of high voltage capacitors the transfer that voltage back and forth between them.

The concept of a petrol engine is counterproductive and misleading.

As Ris has discovered, high pressure gas will need high voltage to produce a spark, but that high pressure gas will form a high voltage capacitive storage that discharges in nanoseconds and is very powerful in that discharge.

In order to make this dual high voltage capacitor concept work, I am most concerned with optimizing the feedback current transfer between paired cylinders because that back and forth voltage transfer is the heart of the Papp reaction.

And yes, I do think more work needs to be done to determine how best to capture the feedback current.  What I mentioned a while back that Russ hasn't yet tried, is to place a scope across the outside cylinder coil, energize the coil to say 24 volts, fire the Popper and see if there is a fairly large jump in voltage produced within the cylinder coil.  If it drops instead of jumps, reverse the polarity used to energize the coil.

Before we can walk , we need to learn to crawl, which is why I believe there is still a ton of experimenting yet to be done with the single cylinder Popper.  This brings me to another aspect of all this:  Wouldn't it be nice if we had a test apparatus that was producing the kind force we need to run the engine.  I don't think Bob Rohner is even close to that yet.  We should be able to figure out how to make a strong, repeatable POP, that delivers the force needed--lets completely ignore input power for the moment.  Once we get the POP we need, then we can optimize reducing input power and collecting more feedback power.  I recall those videos with the clear PVC/Plexiglas tubes and they were producing a considerable bang, enough where you could start tweaking input, gas mix, pressure, volume dimensions, etc and hone in on the best combinations.  From there you can begin to consider building an engine, twin cylinder if you like.

Working with high voltage produces a nanosecond fast powerful current that takes skill, the right equipment, and experience to measure.

Working with a high voltage popper requires a capacitor that should be rated at about 100,000 volts. The higher that voltage is the better.

Yes, such equipment is expensive. Those on a tight budget could learn how to rap their own HV capacitors. A distilled water capacitor is a possibility.

Use a tesla coil to charge the capacitor up.

But be warned, with high voltage comes danger.

   

interesting but mostly wrong
"The concept of a petrol engine is counterproductive and misleading."--This is one of the ways that Majer  has made on its engine 90% secure-look up what I wrote on fuel.
"The key to the Papp engine is the production and release of high voltage"--not necessarily so, high current 100 000 volt is there only to carry this http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/capacitors-energy-power-d_1389.html     high current is only virtual wire
"Before we can walk , we need to learn to crawl,"-- yes I crawl with math and do not imagine anything but show reality---because of this  http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/capacitors-energy-power-d_1389.html  is pointless capture return current  but a potential problem of papp device is a discharge of gases because of too rapid discharge can not generate pressure, in a plastic cylinder that is not a problem because I only got three times papp Get it, noble gases are diamagnetic which means that react to magnetic fields with coil you moving gas from cylinder walls which prevents discharge in this I am not sure 100%
""The concept of a petrol engine is counterproductive and misleading.""on the contrary if Majer managed to make the motor run Its only because of plasma and plasma we have in both engines--why Majer used plasma because of this 900%efficient electrolysis of ordinary "it is a myth" still it is not enough for the engine running and for that we need so much power it is therefore easier to rearrange the engine to run on steam 100%can provably
 Now  you will tell he used ionization of this and that Why so clever a man did not see as I it can be used very little hydrogen or he saw and has made decoy,to whom are you going to sell it if it is very easy---Do you now see all the pieces(A conventional petrol engine we need connect the exhaust and intake to one container-1-2 liters Then we need to remove all the air and filled with pure hydrogen and a few milliliters of plain water
)
no not a theory I checked 75%several times and I will not stop until it's over(hiperaktiv disorder)Any help is appreciated
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=193333544160902&set=a.179551668872423.1073741828.100004527730274&type=3&src=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash4%2F1006233_193333544160902_1832869747_n.jpg&size=960%2C720

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=193333614160895&set=a.179551668872423.1073741828.100004527730274&type=3&src=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-frc1%2F600518_193333614160895_806526571_n.jpg&size=960%2C720
image of test ampoules I hope you can see the image

The second guest on this scarecrow show has a nice presentation about zero point energy and later on
is debating the papp engine and even Russ his approach..:)

For skipping go to minute 26 start presentation, or 1.08 papp or 1.12.45 for Russ

http://freeenergynews.com/SmartScarecrow/2013/07/11/

or via youtube

 

Quote from FaradayEZ on July 15th, 2013, 05:07 PM

The second guest on this scarecrow show has a nice presentation about zero point energy and later on
is debating the papp engine and even Russ his approach..:)

For skipping go to minute 26 start presentation, or 1.08 papp or 1.12.45 for Russ

http://freeenergynews.com/SmartScarecrow/2013/07/11/

or via youtube

FaradayEZ': Thanks for the reference. King likes Russ's paper: He thinks it is wonderful, just wonderful! He also thinks Russ is most likely to succeed. Russ's reputation as a Papp engine replicator is continuing to improve.





 

Quote from Ris on July 8th, 2013, 09:44 AM

when Reinforced spark strikes hydrogen is created plasma

I see one problem: The energy that you will spend to break the water molecule in the plasma, will probably be a lot higher that the energy you could get from the H2/O2 gases expansion effect on the piston...