Something I don't recall anyone mentioning...

I have always understood it to be true that in order to make a Hydrogen bomb (fusion), it is necessary to first have an Atomic bomb (fission).  Does anyone have a hunch if the Thorium Papp uses in the buckets is for the same purpose?  To create a fast enough initial reaction to precipitate the H+B fusion reaction?

Quote from simonderricutt on August 8th, 2013, 03:15 PM

Quote from jabowery on August 8th, 2013, 12:42 PM

Quote from Dog-One on August 8th, 2013, 11:17 AM

...if Russ can show some serious Aneutronic Fusion reactions without blowing himself up, that would certainly end the discussion.

The amount and form of H+B to put in the cylinder for the tests is the main question.

Here's my suggestion:

Look at what Papp wrote/did/said for clues as to how he might have gotten hydrogen and or boron into the cylinder for the Oklahoma test, because that is the best-documented run of his engine we have -- and it is also known to have been a failure until Papp showed up and did something to the fuel mixture.

The easiest way would be to add Diborane. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diborane. Wouldn't after all need much of it. Getting hold of it may be a bit tricky, though. It can spontaneously combust, is poisonous and reacts with moisture (note that Papp insisted on the gas being totally dry). Personally I feel that the trigger for p-B11 is too high unless we get plasmoids and compress them as Koloc stated. Useful to test it out, though.

Although I, myself, have previously suggested that Papp may have injected borane gas into his noble gas mixture as his secret to getting the Oklahoma test to run, if the mechanism is what I think it is, it may be that a simple borax solution in water would do the trick.

Basically, what I am suspecting is that Koloc's compression stroke is not necessary in Papp's plasmoid -- that the image currents in the cylinder, generated by the plasmoid formation, will provide compression that, during the initial spike, is the equivalent of magnetized inertial confinement, which creates the desired compression in a _very_ tiny region that, due to the dilute mixture, buns a small portion of the p+B11 in that tiny region.

This would, by the way, require burning only about 1 microgram of boron11 per second to sustain 100hp:

6.0221413e+23*8.7Melectronvolt/mole;12g/mole;100hp?ug/s
([{6.0221413E23 * (8.7 * [mega*electronvolt])} / mole]^-1 * [{12 * gramm} / mole]) * (100 * horsepower) ? (micro*gramm) / ...
= 1.0660154 ug/s

I should add that during my work with Koloc, he did _not_ have the kind of discharge apparatus necessary to produce the kind of magnetized inertial confinement I am talking about.  He was aware of this.  He was looking for a particular wave form that his circuit was unable to achieve.  I designed a circuit using SPICE that achieved the wave form with the intense initial spike and I described that circuit at this comment.  I did so while in Koloc's lab without telling him what I was doing, and when he walked by he immediately froze when he saw the wave form, saying "That's the wave form I want!"  Unfortunately, that was the last time I worked with Koloc as I discovered, during that same trip, that he had fabricated a key piece of evidence -- at which point I terminated our relationship.

"I should add that during my work with Koloc, he did _not_ have the kind of discharge apparatus necessary to produce the kind of magnetized inertial confinement I am talking about. He was aware of this. He was looking for a particular wave form that his circuit was unable to achieve. I designed a circuit using SPICE that achieved the wave form with the intense initial spike and I described that circuit at this comment. I did so while in Koloc's lab without telling him what I was doing, and when he walked by he immediately froze when he saw the wave form, saying "That's the wave form I want!" Unfortunately, that was the last time I worked with Koloc as I discovered, during that same trip, that he had fabricated a key piece of evidence -- at which point I terminated our relationship."

This comment is most interesting. I am a follower of Koloc's work and would like to know what information was fabricated. If you can share that it could be important as it may relate to what is happening.

Thanks - BobN

Why should Papp have been afraid for a run away reaction if he wasn't using
radioactive materials?

The Boron reaction could run away

So also Papp's fear speaks of the use of something like this...

We still need final proof for this but it doesn't look good for old Papp. Which is a bloody shame and a cruel joke. I waisted a year on this and i'm not a Stanley man. My guts say i have to go to Keshe now..one i hardly understand.

Grrr

Quote from BobN on August 9th, 2013, 12:44 PM

"I should add that during my work with Koloc, he did _not_ have the kind of discharge apparatus necessary to produce the kind of magnetized inertial confinement I am talking about. He was aware of this. He was looking for a particular wave form that his circuit was unable to achieve. I designed a circuit using SPICE that achieved the wave form with the intense initial spike and I described that circuit at this comment. I did so while in Koloc's lab without telling him what I was doing, and when he walked by he immediately froze when he saw the wave form, saying "That's the wave form I want!" Unfortunately, that was the last time I worked with Koloc as I discovered, during that same trip, that he had fabricated a key piece of evidence -- at which point I terminated our relationship."

This comment is most interesting. I am a follower of Koloc's work and would like to know what information was fabricated. If you can share that it could be important as it may relate to what is happening.

Thanks - BobN

This photograph is a CCD artifact, not a plasmoid:

Although Koloc did not fabricate the photograph, he did take 3 such photographs of CCD artifacts and represent them as 3 sequential video frames of a motion video -- the original tape of which he represented as having "lost".  The artifact occurs when the charge array from one frame is being shifted out during the exposure of the next frame, and a very bright flash occurs.  In that event, you get a profile of the flash spread out along the axis that the charge array is being clocked out along.  Since the flash starts small, grows and then shrinks in a time symmetric fashion, it appears diamond shaped.  The next frame is generally completely saturated exposure as it represents the stationary integration of charge over the whole flash event.  I suspect that when this first happened to Koloc, he genuinely thought he had produced a diamond shaped plasmoid but he never actually captured 3 consecutive frames with the diamond shape traveling -- as he claimed to me and to others.  He confabulated this "motion" from separate images that were taken at different phases of the CCD clock cycle.  It was this motion video "evidence" of a long-lived plasmoid, along with Bob Bussard's assurance that Koloc had, in fact, done legitimate work on the Spheromak project at the University of Maryland, that hooked me into spending time and money with Koloc in an attempt to reproduce the long-lived plasmoid.  After several years of such work (understand that our work together was occasional and over these years I invested less than $10,000 total including travel from California to his College Park, MD residence)  I finally was able to spend enough time with him that I was able gain unencumbered access to his lab to the point that I was able to find the "lost" VHS tape shortly after we had encountered the same CCD artifact, albeit in a very different scale.  The reproduced artifact had the appearance of very a small diamond -- much smaller than the original diamonds Koloc had produced -- that would appear for one frame only.  We determined these were CCD artifacts by turning the camera 90 degrees and noticing that the "motion" of the diamond changed along with the orientation of the camera.  While doing this diagnostic work I noticed Koloc's behavior becoming not merely erratic but downright schizoid.  He began exhibiting what I can only characterize as multiple (2 distinct) personalities -- one of which was "mischievous" at best and sinister at worst.  He began getting out his firearms claiming he was going to "shoot rats".  He also got out poison.  I took note of his strange behavior but it did not deter me as I was quite busy with 2 issues:  1) getting a SPICE circuit designed that produced the wave form Koloc claimed he had seen in lightning, and 2) digitizing the entirety of a VHS tape I'd found that had images from shots from the era I knew corresponded to the original "plasmoid motion video".  When I found the stills that he had put together to fabricate "motion", I merely said, "I found the original images you lost." without comment and showed them to him, playing dumb as I digitized them onto his computer.  I started getting concerned that he may have poisoned me at one point because he had gotten out "rat poison", had given me water to drink and my blood pressure was going up.  During this time another of Koloc's investors showed up, a Japanese fellow, and took off with some of his equipment, silently mouthing "HE'S CRAZY!!!" with a violent look on his face as he walked out.  I decided I'd make my escape myself at that point, called my brother, who was practicing medicine in Las Vegas, and talked to him about my blood pressure reading which was malignant hypertension.  I don't know for sure if the bp meter was accurate but that was all the excuse I needed to tell Koloc I had to leave to go home -- "doctor's orders" -- and I did.  Oh, and I also promptly warned everyone who I had influenced to be involved with Koloc of the situation.  There was another event that occurred prior to that trip that I can only characterize as shockingly premonitory of what I was to experience, but I'd rather not go into the details of that.  I only mention it to indicate that these events possibly had a paranormal twist to them.  (And the "benign" personality Koloc exhibited during these events was getting pretty focused on the a crucifix he wore around but normally didn't pay much attention to.)

Quote from FaradayEZ on August 9th, 2013, 01:02 PM

Why should Papp have been afraid for a run away reaction if he wasn't using
radioactive materials?

The Boron reaction could run away

Highly unlikely.

Quote from FaradayEZ on August 9th, 2013, 01:02 PM

So also Papp's fear speaks of the use of something like this...

I think all the evidence we need to respect the explosive danger is what happened at the China Lake Naval Station test of Papp's cannon.  What this says is that Papp had calibrated the mix, discharge character, etc. pretty well for his engine, but when he wanted to scale the explosion up, he didn't have a good model for how things scaled.  He erred on the side of a more powerful explosion and it blew the cannon barrel apart.

Quote from FaradayEZ on August 9th, 2013, 01:02 PM

We still need final proof for this but it doesn't look good for old Papp. Which is a bloody shame and a cruel joke. I waisted a year on this and i'm not a Stanley man. My guts say i have to go to Keshe now..one i hardly understand.

Grrr

You repeatedly claim that proof of a boron explanation for Papp's energy would be a "bloody shame and a cruel joke" etc.

An engine that can run for 10 days straight on 1 gram of boron+hydrogen doesn't seem like a bloody shame -- although Papp's deception may be a "cruel joke" in the sense that he made a lot of people waste a lot of time before they discovered the true source of power.

Quote from jabowery on August 9th, 2013, 05:55 PM

Quote from BobN on August 9th, 2013, 12:44 PM

"I should add that during my work with Koloc, he did _not_ have the kind of discharge apparatus necessary to produce the kind of magnetized inertial confinement I am talking about. He was aware of this. He was looking for a particular wave form that his circuit was unable to achieve. I designed a circuit using SPICE that achieved the wave form with the intense initial spike and I described that circuit at this comment. I did so while in Koloc's lab without telling him what I was doing, and when he walked by he immediately froze when he saw the wave form, saying "That's the wave form I want!" Unfortunately, that was the last time I worked with Koloc as I discovered, during that same trip, that he had fabricated a key piece of evidence -- at which point I terminated our relationship."

This comment is most interesting. I am a follower of Koloc's work and would like to know what information was fabricated. If you can share that it could be important as it may relate to what is happening.

Thanks - BobN

This photograph is a CCD artifact, not a plasmoid:

Although Koloc did not fabricate the photograph, he did take 3 such photographs of CCD artifacts and represent them as 3 sequential video frames of a motion video -- the original tape of which he represented as having "lost".  The artifact occurs when the charge array from one frame is being shifted out during the exposure of the next frame, and a very bright flash occurs.  In that event, you get a profile of the flash spread out along the axis that the charge array is being clocked out along.  Since the flash starts small, grows and then shrinks in a time symmetric fashion, it appears diamond shaped.  The next frame is generally completely saturated exposure as it represents the stationary integration of charge over the whole flash event.  I suspect that when this first happened to Koloc, he genuinely thought he had produced a diamond shaped plasmoid but he never actually captured 3 consecutive frames with the diamond shape traveling -- as he claimed to me and to others.  He confabulated this "motion" from separate images that were taken at different phases of the CCD clock cycle.  It was this motion video "evidence" of a long-lived plasmoid, along with Bob Bussard's assurance that Koloc had, in fact, done legitimate work on the Spheromak project at the University of Maryland, that hooked me into spending time and money with Koloc in an attempt to reproduce the long-lived plasmoid.  After several years of such work (understand that our work together was occasional and over these years I invested less than $10,000 total including travel from California to his College Park, MD residence)  I finally was able to spend enough time with him that I was able gain unencumbered access to his lab to the point that I was able to find the "lost" VHS tape shortly after we had encountered the same CCD artifact, albeit in a very different scale.  The reproduced artifact had the appearance of very a small diamond -- much smaller than the original diamonds Koloc had produced -- that would appear for one frame only.  We determined these were CCD artifacts by turning the camera 90 degrees and noticing that the "motion" of the diamond changed along with the orientation of the camera.  While doing this diagnostic work I noticed Koloc's behavior becoming not merely erratic but downright schizoid.  He began exhibiting what I can only characterize as multiple (2 distinct) personalities -- one of which was "mischievous" at best and sinister at worst.  He began getting out his firearms claiming he was going to "shoot rats".  He also got out poison.  I took note of his strange behavior but it did not deter me as I was quite busy with 2 issues:  1) getting a SPICE circuit designed that produced the wave form Koloc claimed he had seen in lightning, and 2) digitizing the entirety of a VHS tape I'd found that had images from shots from the era I knew corresponded to the original "plasmoid motion video".  When I found the stills that he had put together to fabricate "motion", I merely said, "I found the original images you lost." without comment and showed them to him, playing dumb as I digitized them onto his computer.  I started getting concerned that he may have poisoned me at one point because he had gotten out "rat poison", had given me water to drink and my blood pressure was going up.  During this time another of Koloc's investors showed up, a Japanese fellow, and took off with some of his equipment, silently mouthing "HE'S CRAZY!!!" with a violent look on his face as he walked out.  I decided I'd make my escape myself at that point, called my brother, who was practicing medicine in Las Vegas, and talked to him about my blood pressure reading which was malignant hypertension.  I don't know for sure if the bp meter was accurate but that was all the excuse I needed to tell Koloc I had to leave to go home -- "doctor's orders" -- and I did.  Oh, and I also promptly warned everyone who I had influenced to be involved with Koloc of the situation.  There was another event that occurred prior to that trip that I can only characterize as shockingly premonitory of what I was to experience, but I'd rather not go into the details of that.  I only mention it to indicate that these events possibly had a paranormal twist to them.  (And the "benign" personality Koloc exhibited during these events was getting pretty focused on the a crucifix he wore around but normally didn't pay much attention to.)

Thanks for the information, most interesting. What size of plasmoid was needed to get the desired results? Was there a specific goal?
If he doctored the results, was his efforts to bilk others of money?
Koloc's behavior sure was strange. I view Papp's behavior as also very strange, along with a few others working with High Voltages. I wonder if the constant exposure to the EMP pulses doesn't affect the brain. It seems like a real note of caution is needed for working in his area.

Theory wise, what he was doing made sense and it seemed like he was close.

BobN

I believe that the Papp engine gets its power from an increase in the number of electrons and their associated energy that are produced by the spark compared to the number of elections and their energy that goes into producing those electrons.

This is a violation of the conservation of charge(Lenz’s law). However, this increase in charge has been seen is superconductivity and it really baffles the people who study it.

Quote from jabowery on August 9th, 2013, 07:07 PM

Quote from FaradayEZ on August 9th, 2013, 01:02 PM

Why should Papp have been afraid for a run away reaction if he wasn't using
radioactive materials?

The Boron reaction could run away

Highly unlikely.

Ok, then he may have used something that reacts a little easier, he was afraid like we saw when the engine blew up that Feynmann witnessed.

Quote from jabowery on August 9th, 2013, 07:07 PM

Quote from FaradayEZ on August 9th, 2013, 01:02 PM

So also Papp's fear speaks of the use of something like this...

I think all the evidence we need to respect the explosive danger is what happened at the China Lake Naval Station test of Papp's cannon.  What this says is that Papp had calibrated the mix, discharge character, etc. pretty well for his engine, but when he wanted to scale the explosion up, he didn't have a good model for how things scaled.  He erred on the side of a more powerful explosion and it blew the cannon barrel apart.

Agreed, but with the Feynmann blow up the regulation of the engine was cut off and it brought a runaway proces, leading to an exploded engine and some death.

Quote from jabowery on August 9th, 2013, 07:07 PM

Quote from FaradayEZ on August 9th, 2013, 01:02 PM

We still need final proof for this but it doesn't look good for old Papp. Which is a bloody shame and a cruel joke. I waisted a year on this and i'm not a Stanley man. My guts say i have to go to Keshe now..one i hardly understand.

Grrr

You repeatedly claim that proof of a boron explanation for Papp's energy would be a "bloody shame and a cruel joke" etc.

An engine that can run for 10 days straight on 1 gram of boron+hydrogen doesn't seem like a bloody shame -- although Papp's deception may be a "cruel joke" in the sense that he made a lot of people waste a lot of time before they discovered the true source of power.

Its not OU in the sense that we are looking for. The radioactive side may be a big obstacle to ever get this to market now. Maybe thats why they used to recommend papp's engine for big irrigation pumps far away from the public?

Let them build that thorium reactor when they want to use radioactive input.

You may be right that there is still something to be done with it, but for me another santa claus just died, now the onelyone with proof of overunity is rossi?

Quote from FaradayEZ on August 10th, 2013, 05:14 AM

Quote from jabowery on August 9th, 2013, 07:07 PM

You repeatedly claim that proof of a boron explanation for Papp's energy would be a "bloody shame and a cruel joke" etc.

An engine that can run for 10 days straight on 1 gram of boron+hydrogen doesn't seem like a bloody shame -- although Papp's deception may be a "cruel joke" in the sense that he made a lot of people waste a lot of time before they discovered the true source of power.

Its not OU in the sense that we are looking for. The radioactive side may be a big obstacle to ever get this to market now.

There is no radioactivity involved in boron hydrogen fusion.  Both inputs are stable and the energy output is charged particles that go straight into current.

Quote from BobN on August 9th, 2013, 07:51 PM

Thanks for the information, most interesting. What size of plasmoid was needed to get the desired results? Was there a specific goal?

The object was simply to get a mechanically compressible plasmoid of any size.

Quote from BobN on August 9th, 2013, 07:51 PM

If he doctored the results, was his efforts to bilk others of money?

No, I witnessed him turn down money over terms of control over the technology.  I'm convinced 'he' (at least the benign personality) believed he was developing a legitimate technology.  The point at which he developed multiple personalities is the key question here.  He had narcolepsy and had been taking dextroamphetamine for years -- albeit in doses too small (15mg/day) to cause serious psychological damage in normal people.  He was also working with large amounts of mercury in his high power switches for years.  He also had some background with the national labs and the earliest laser work -- which would put him into potentially "compartmentalized" classified work with the attendant uncertainty as to what sort technologies he had actually worked on and the associated psychological techniques used to maintain security.

Quote from BobN on August 9th, 2013, 07:51 PM

Koloc's behavior sure was strange. I view Papp's behavior as also very strange, along with a few others working with High Voltages. I wonder if the constant exposure to the EMP pulses doesn't affect the brain. It seems like a real note of caution is needed for working in his area.

That has occurred to me as well.  It also, interestingly, was something Koloc mentioned.  Collective electrodynamic effects also involve macroscopic quantum mechanical phenomena -- something that may further entail the "paranormal".  An individual with whom I have had a long professional association and who held high level intelligence posts with the US govt. was very keen on Carver Mead's book by that name (and was even involved in getting Mead to complete it) and told me it was key to creating a theory of what people normally think of as "paranormal" phenomena.

I take these things seriously.

Quote from Axil on August 9th, 2013, 11:52 PM

I believe that the Papp engine gets its power from an increase in the number of electrons and their associated energy that are produced by the spark compared to the number of elections and their energy that goes into producing those electrons.

This is a violation of the conservation of charge(Lenz’s law). However, this increase in charge has been seen is superconductivity and it really baffles the people who study it.

Is there an experiment that is as economical as adding hydrogen+boron to the cylinder to test your belief?

Strong inference starts with multiple hypotheses and rationally determining the most economic experimental protocol that will discriminate between them.

Jim - thanks for the very interesting details. I think Koloc was certainly on a correct path to getting fusion, and currently Clint Seward seems to be taking those ideas to completion (although more slowly than he could possibly do so, for lack of funding). Koloc may be proved correct in a few years.
Koloc's problem with the CCD camera should be a nice example of why not to trust the instrumentation totally. With my video camera I've found it puts the odd "make-up" frames in, identical to the previous frame (not collecting the data within the correct time), so it's not the precise time-clock I thought it was.
Like BobN I'm somewhat wary of the health effects of high EMP and would design the system with very small high-current loops to reduce this as far as possible.
The main problem with the paranormal is trying to find a way to measure it so that it becomes science. When it's "feelings" it can't be quantified, though things like "remote viewing" can be at least verified as true or not - though I'm never certain of the veracity of the reports, not knowing the people involved. Since it seems unlikely to me that even with the connectivity of the brain such things as thoughts could not be classical physics but must have QM connections, it seems at least possible that measurements could be made.

Quote from jabowery on August 10th, 2013, 06:11 AM

There is no radioactivity involved in boron hydrogen fusion.  Both inputs are stable and the energy output is charged particles that go straight into current.

That's good news, and that i let my emotions speak is cause i'm getting fed up with the whole papp engine. Its taking so long that i hope that your test can be done quickly so there will be some solution, some breakthrough. It being in favor of Papp or not, i don't mind anymore, just let something happen here. :@

Quote from FaradayEZ on August 10th, 2013, 01:05 PM

Quote from jabowery on August 10th, 2013, 06:11 AM

There is no radioactivity involved in boron hydrogen fusion.  Both inputs are stable and the energy output is charged particles that go straight into current.

That's good news, and that i let my emotions speak is cause i'm getting fed up with the whole papp engine. Its taking so long that i hope that your test can be done quickly so there will be some solution, some breakthrough. It being in favor of Papp or not, i don't mind anymore, just let something happen here. :@

I understand.  Bob Rohner seems to be at an impasse as well, which is why I've suggested to Bob, as well as here, to pursue the clue presented by Papp explaining a powder observed after the run of his engine as boron "ash".

Quote from jabowery on August 10th, 2013, 06:11 AM

There is no radioactivity involved in boron hydrogen fusion.  Both inputs are stable and the energy output is charged particles that go straight into current.

The field reversed configuration is a plasmoid in a cylinder that is proposed to burn He3+D in a mostly-aneutronic reaction:



This plasmoid structure is very similar to that proposed by Koloc.

In addition to the borane possibility, another possibility for Papp is that one of his gasses was He3+D.

Quote from jabowery on August 14th, 2013, 10:35 AM

Quote from jabowery on August 10th, 2013, 06:11 AM

There is no radioactivity involved in boron hydrogen fusion.  Both inputs are stable and the energy output is charged particles that go straight into current.

The field reversed configuration is a plasmoid in a cylinder that is proposed to burn He3+D in a mostly-aneutronic reaction:



This plasmoid structure is very similar to that proposed by Koloc.

In addition to the borane possibility, another possibility for Papp is that one of his gasses was He3+D.

This reactor is a fusion/ fission hybrid using thorium breeding.

Quote from Axil on August 14th, 2013, 03:24 PM

This reactor is a fusion/ fission hybrid using thorium breeding.

No its not.  

See the Next Big Future links on the propulsion system for details.

Hey guys,

I have been following Russ's work with great interest and love seeing the progress. I was wondering if we have thought of applying Stan Meyers concept of light to the Papp apparatus. In other words you could excite the gas using light prior to ignition?

Just a thought!

Quote

In Video 23, I looked at the volt meter carefully. It looked to me like the voltage on the feedback current got into 4 digits for a split second.

Is it possible that the voltmeter is not sensitive to rapid voltage spikes?

I saw a number come up showing about 1800 on the meter in a flash.

Am I seeing things or is the meter to insensitive to properly record the feedback current spike.

If the meter is too insensitive, can a way be found to trap the maximum voltage value at the spike?

i can try using a much smaller cap for this. this will give us a better indication of the spike. my scope likes to stop working around this system so... im kinda out of luck on that. unless i can get a hold of a cheep hand held scope that will take the nasty stuff around this device...

Quote

A storage scope reading would be far better. We could go back over that in slow motion and get a pretty good feel for the feedback impulse hitting the large cap. We would need both voltage direct and voltage via a shunt for current. That would tell the story.

all in the next update :)

Quote

I looked at the 23 video again is stop motion and saw the meter read as high as 1892.

i think this is due to the nasty RF and stuff coming off the system... my guess.

Quote

Use of a memory scope would be good to see the nature of the voltage spike.

update 24... :)

Quote

As Ris has discovered, high pressure gas will need high voltage to produce a spark, but that high pressure gas will form a high voltage capacitive storage that discharges in nanoseconds and is very powerful in that discharge.

yes i have also tried higher pressures and even my system has its limitations.

Quote

And yes, I do think more work needs to be done to determine how best to capture the feedback current. What I mentioned a while back that Russ hasn't yet tried, is to place a scope across the outside cylinder coil, energize the coil to say 24 volts, fire the Popper and see if there is a fairly large jump in voltage produced within the cylinder coil. If it drops instead of jumps, reverse the polarity used to energize the coil.

Before we can walk , we need to learn to crawl, which is why I believe there is still a ton of experimenting yet to be done with the single cylinder Popper. This brings me to another aspect of all this: Wouldn't it be nice if we had a test apparatus that was producing the kind force we need to run the engine. I don't think Bob Rohner is even close to that yet. We should be able to figure out how to make a strong, repeatable POP, that delivers the force needed--lets completely ignore input power for the moment. Once we get the POP we need, then we can optimize reducing input power and collecting more feedback power. I recall those videos with the clear PVC/Plexiglas tubes and they were producing a considerable bang, enough where you could start tweaking input, gas mix, pressure, volume dimensions, etc and hone in on the best combinations. From there you can begin to consider building an engine, twin cylinder if you like.

yes we have a bunch of stuff to do first... and update 24 will be that start.

Quote

Working with high voltage produces a nanosecond fast powerful current that takes skill, the right equipment, and experience to measure.

Working with a high voltage popper requires a capacitor that should be rated at about 100,000 volts. The higher that voltage is the better.

Yes, such equipment is expensive. Those on a tight budget could learn how to rap their own HV capacitors. A distilled water capacitor is a possibility.

Use a tesla coil to charge the capacitor up.

But be warned, with high voltage comes danger.

Axil. if we need to do this for one pop... then it will be useless. we need to try keeping it simple. i mean Papp did it... so we continue to understand what he did...

Quote

FaradayEZ': Thanks for the reference. King likes Russ's paper: He thinks it is wonderful, just wonderful! He also thinks Russ is most likely to succeed. Russ's reputation as a Papp engine replicator is continuing to improve.

cant take all the credit here... :) yeah you know waht im talking about Axil...

Quote

Timing is everything. Imagine being there with Joe, Bob and Tom back in the 80's when that engine was running on the dyno. Makes you wonder why it's so hard to reproduce 30 years later. I think it says something about the decline of human abilities. I have a hunch if Bob OpenSourced everything he has, there would still be little to no progress and no running Papp engine today, or within the next couple of years. Kind of sad.

yeah but some just do it the way they do it ...  we can only keep trying.

Quote

EZ has a good point, if Russ can show some serious Aneutronic Fusion reactions without blowing himself up, that would certainly end the discussion.

hahaah :) yes it would lol :)

Quote

Hey Russ

I am eager to share information on the Papp engine with you to assist your efforts. It will be worth the call.

I am a Fusion Research Engineer.

sent you an email. did you get it?

Quote

That's good news, and that i let my emotions speak is cause i'm getting fed up with the whole papp engine. Its taking so long that i hope that your test can be done quickly so there will be some solution, some breakthrough. It being in favor of Papp or not, i don't mind anymore, just let something happen here. Angry

unfortunately i'm a volunteer so i only can work on this when time allows... :)

i can only do so much... :)

Quote

Hey guys,

I have been following Russ's work with great interest and love seeing the progress. I was wondering if we have thought of applying Stan Meyers concept of light to the Papp apparatus. In other words you could excite the gas using light prior to ignition?

Just a thought!

first welcome, and second yes this is what the "pree excitement" stage is for. but applying Stan work directly may not be helpful. but its all in the same world... :)



ok we ll now its time to start posting about update # 23

~Russ

Update 24:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwwz8ofIWrw

finally here... leave your feed back!!!!

~Russ

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on August 22nd, 2013, 02:25 AM

Update 24:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwwz8ofIWrw

finally here... leave your feed back!!!!

~Russ

Hey Russ,

Great to see the continuing efforts. Also be careful with those back voltage spikes. In the original video the guy talks about 1000 plus amps in terms of current that he was unable to use. If you are getting similar spikes you would want to make sure you take precautions...just saying :P

Otherwise great to see this stuff coming out but I cant see the video??? Am I missing something?

Quote from zaneaussie on August 22nd, 2013, 05:37 AM

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on August 22nd, 2013, 02:25 AM

Update 24:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwwz8ofIWrw

finally here... leave your feed back!!!!

~Russ

Hey Russ,

Great to see the continuing efforts. Also be careful with those back voltage spikes. In the original video the guy talks about 1000 plus amps in terms of current that he was unable to use. If you are getting similar spikes you would want to make sure you take precautions...just saying :P

Otherwise great to see this stuff coming out but I cant see the video??? Am I missing something?

Give it 10 min or so. It's Prossising...

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on August 22nd, 2013, 02:25 AM

Update 24:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwwz8ofIWrw

finally here... leave your feed back!!!!

~Russ

Russ:
Where can we download the 2 programs?

Hmmm...

What kind of data...that's a good question, and I had to think about that. I guess the main things that should be focused on is the energy input vs energy output, but I guess what could be just as important to find out is if it is putting out any types of radiation and if so in what quantities and at what levels.

The pressure transducer is a good idea but I have a feeling it might blow that thing right off the scale even with a hydraulic type setup, after all we are talking about a cavitation bubble collapsing at immense pressure.

I feel the most important things to focus in terms of data in order of priority is

1. Safety - Measuring radiation and back voltage spikes (then we can say for certain what measures have to be taken in order to operate it safely as well as what to do with the back voltage in terms of how much there is which will also be an important piece of information when it comes to energy input/output calculations) This will also allow us to work out if the back voltage spike can be used to further drive the system i.e charging a capacitor bank etc

2. Energy consumed in terms of joules (or jolts :P) vs energy output in terms of force. This will allow us then to do a simple unit conversion of total energy consumed vs total energy output.

3. Replication parameters: In other words what was done to obtain those results including things like frequency, duty cycles and voltage of the firing mechanism. What gas'es where used and at what pressure/vacuum with the above and most importantly which where more successful. This will allow us to further optimize the device as well as get a fairly accurate picture of what is actually happening.

the only other thing I would consider measuring is the difference between running the coils and not. Is there a difference?

Also I noticed in one of the papp updates..cant recall which one. But when you filled the chamber with gas the piston remained in it's position. In the video with Bob he actually fills the chamber with gas until the piston raises all the way to the top then he pushes the piston back down until he has roughly atmospheric pressure. Im not sure if this makes a difference in terms of making sure the entire cylinder is filled? Either way great work keep it coming :-)

Anyways just my thoughts what do you guys think?
 

OK, and thx Russ for the video.

Couldn't find the liveshow on your utube channel dow.

I know your a volunteer etc. and your only doing what ye can, but i thought there where more here who have a popper device and when it gets quiet around here or when someone like Jabowery has a testworthy idea to maybe find a breakthrough...it itches me to howler at the blue sky. :)

In the vid you also say you have to do a lot of preps for the Global BEM. I understand that it will be nice to concur with other people in this field. But further on it is also like preaching for the converted. If info from BEM would go mainstream etc. then it would be really something...not to piss on the parade, but just to relativice any too nice dreamed off outcome from it. (or spend too much time on preps for it) But already some new help and contacts can be worth it all.

To your feedback question:

I think you need to make some pilots-check-list when experimenting.

And yes, safety from the EM should be first.

(almost) Every test should have the input/output graph

Note which capacitors you use per test
Note the electrode spacing
Note the gassort
Note the amount of voltage and current and durations

Etcetera, just note every variable and with the outcomming data we get to draw some lines in the sand. Doesn't matter at what efficiency.

Test the triple spark and test the addition of Boron, those seem to me the most urgent tests.

Doing the Boron before BEM you would have some news for them, even if it doesn't deliver its something to get answered in means of a possible reaction.

And to Jabowery i want to point out the following video of Bob Rohner and a duration test in which he talks and shows some residue, blue (and white when perfect?) in colour.

Quote from zaneaussie on August 22nd, 2013, 06:21 PM

Hmmm...

What kind of data...that's a good question, and I had to think about that. I guess the main things that should be focused on is the energy input vs energy output, but I guess what could be just as important to find out is if it is putting out any types of radiation and if so in what quantities and at what levels.

The pressure transducer is a good idea but I have a feeling it might blow that thing right off the scale even with a hydraulic type setup, after all we are talking about a cavitation bubble collapsing at immense pressure.

I feel the most important things to focus in terms of data in order of priority is

1. Safety - Measuring radiation and back voltage spikes (then we can say for certain what measures have to be taken in order to operate it safely as well as what to do with the back voltage in terms of how much there is which will also be an important piece of information when it comes to energy input/output calculations) This will also allow us to work out if the back voltage spike can be used to further drive the system i.e charging a capacitor bank etc

2. Energy consumed in terms of joules (or jolts :P) vs energy output in terms of force. This will allow us then to do a simple unit conversion of total energy consumed vs total energy output.

3. Replication parameters: In other words what was done to obtain those results including things like frequency, duty cycles and voltage of the firing mechanism. What gas'es where used and at what pressure/vacuum with the above and most importantly which where more successful. This will allow us to further optimize the device as well as get a fairly accurate picture of what is actually happening.

the only other thing I would consider measuring is the difference between running the coils and not. Is there a difference?

Also I noticed in one of the papp updates..cant recall which one. But when you filled the chamber with gas the piston remained in it's position. In the video with Bob he actually fills the chamber with gas until the piston raises all the way to the top then he pushes the piston back down until he has roughly atmospheric pressure. Im not sure if this makes a difference in terms of making sure the entire cylinder is filled? Either way great work keep it coming :-)

Anyways just my thoughts what do you guys think?

Quote

. Energy consumed in terms of joules (or jolts Tongue) vs energy output in terms of force. This will allow us then to do a simple unit conversion of total energy consumed vs total energy output.

This advice is very perceptive.

Success of the Papp reaction is predicated on the amount of electrical energy input versus the amount of electric energy that can be reflected to the mated cylinder.  

That ratio must be over unity. This includes electrical energy produced from a generator powered by the mechanical action of the cylinder.

Progress is measured by reducing the difference in the magnitude between the input versus the output currents.

One cylinder must produce enough electrical power to drive the mated cylinder.