Power speed popping!

80-100J was the best for the voltage I was using...

Just for fun...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XdAnXmVi40

Just look at the last 20 nge carefully.My opinion is that we could already draw information from existing technologies such as a plasma cutter. Important tungsten electrodes in a condition with air can not endure 2 hours konstant work.    What do you say to this last link   http://peswiki.com/index.php/News:Blog:Inteligentry_Raided_by_FBI        

To Russ:
"Power speed popping! " Bravo! I just hope that there are no dangerous radiations in these pops. I can send you a Geiger counter if you need one.

Quote from atanguy on March 26th, 2013, 04:50 PM

To Russ:
"Power speed popping! " Bravo! I just hope that there are no dangerous radiations in these pops. I can send you a Geiger counter if you need one.

dude... you have an extra?

i was lucky enough that my buddy pete funded me one. so im good. but its so hard to detect those tinny changes and all my electronic devices don't like this nasty EMF! my big TV monitor reset its self... crashed from the nasty EMP RMF ECT! i i must be carfare on how often and how much i use this popper...

whats the best way to measure EMP pulses? there fast so an analog meter will not work. i need a digital higher speed meter... would be good to get.

!?!?!

~Russ

Quote from Ris on March 26th, 2013, 04:58 PM

Hello guys.I read almost the whole forum and my eyes turned out.I must say serious s" happen here.but all that somehow going in an odd direction.All I saw has lot of sense but also a lot of things do not fit into a realistic mathematics and Physics.With my example I'll try to focus on some things.These are the real information and can be easily verified and some are simply logical.      My car at 100 km has a fuel consumption 320Mj when we returned 90 percent of fuel(repeated recombined exhaust gases and heat)you could drive a very long time.               If it works NGE all that done in the every working cycle. QUESTION-HOW MUCH ENERGY IS REQURED TO IGNITE THE GASOLINE--NOBLE GASES???         Germans have developed a heating on ice and in my opinion it is a good recombining system((working something like this: has tank with 12m3 water, in the tank pipe, into the pipe spec liquid something like refrigerants sistem, then refrigerants go to the pump, releases heat,heated house,after the heat released is returned to the tank and slowly freezing water.SISTEM ONLY REQUIRES ENERGY TO RUN PUMP. I hope you understand the principle I do not know 100% how working. It is important that water freezes several months.when all the water is frozen then it should be defrosted and this is done after a few months with the solar heat panel  and the process continues.
VERY IMPORTANT--When the water goes from ice to liquid releases energy 300kj 1 kg--When the water goes from liquid to vapor releases energy( Or requir when we heated)2300kj 1 kg--When the water goes into hho or gas 11000kj 1kg--NOW WHAT DO YOU THINK THE ENERGY REQUIRED FOR STATE OF PLASMA---HYDROGEN IONIZATION 72160kj 1 KG
300--2300--11000--72160 CONCLUSION WHEN WE GOING FORWARD WE NEED MORE ENERGY It is a good But it requires a large input ENERGY(for STARTING plasma) WHAT IS ALSO GOOD We can make a powerful machines*********BUT MOST IMPORTANT IS ENERGY EQUILIBRIUM*******All we can do in these processes is affect the time and it is important to restore the energy consumed .    I hope I got hit in the heart of the problem. IF ANYONE OUT THERE PLEASE LET THE NOTICE  TO RUSS

the only thing we can do is try... so far it the entire energy level goes up... its dose not mater wherw we sit as long as we can keep that energy level going... you see this "crossover"  is where we substain this high level of energy... once its stared it will keep going...

i believe energy is everywhere, we just need to let it flow through our system and use it as it passes... like wind and a win turban. like the sun and photovoltaic process... all things just get converted as they flow through the system. nothing is losed nothing is gained. energy is not created nor destroyed. only constantly changing.

so weather we are at  1j or 100mj its still just flowing from one state to the other... use it as it flows through the system... " crossover" this is where we gain out efficiency's... same as bob describes in his last video.  as of right now i do agree on this.

~Russ

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 27th, 2013, 03:29 AM

Quote from atanguy on March 26th, 2013, 04:50 PM

To Russ:
"Power speed popping! " Bravo! I just hope that there are no dangerous radiations in these pops. I can send you a Geiger counter if you need one.

dude... you have an extra?

i was lucky enough that my buddy pete funded me one. so im good. but its so hard to detect those tinny changes and all my electronic devices don't like this nasty EMF! my big TV monitor reset its self... crashed from the nasty EMP RMF ECT! i i must be carfare on how often and how much i use this popper...

whats the best way to measure EMP pulses? there fast so an analog meter will not work. i need a digital higher speed meter... would be good to get.

!?!?!

~Russ

Maybe put a chicken wire cage around the TV or maybe around the popper it's self?  If that works at least a camera can still see through :)

"dude... you have an extra?" No extra but not using it right now... A faraday cage around the popper,with some doors, seems to be a good solution to try.

A cheap solar powered calculator (TI -1795 or equivalent) will have the display go all nutso when brought near the offending conductors - possibly useful as an EMI sniffer - your mileage may vary.

kcd

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 27th, 2013, 03:44 AM

Quote from Ris on March 26th, 2013, 04:58 PM

Hello guys.I read almost the whole forum and my eyes turned out.I must say serious s" happen here.but all that somehow going in an odd direction.All I saw has lot of sense but also a lot of things do not fit into a realistic mathematics and Physics.With my example I'll try to focus on some things.These are the real information and can be easily verified and some are simply logical.      My car at 100 km has a fuel consumption 320Mj when we returned 90 percent of fuel(repeated recombined exhaust gases and heat)you could drive a very long time.               If it works NGE all that done in the every working cycle. QUESTION-HOW MUCH ENERGY IS REQURED TO IGNITE THE GASOLINE--NOBLE GASES???         Germans have developed a heating on ice and in my opinion it is a good recombining system((working something like this: has tank with 12m3 water, in the tank pipe, into the pipe spec liquid something like refrigerants sistem, then refrigerants go to the pump, releases heat,heated house,after the heat released is returned to the tank and slowly freezing water.SISTEM ONLY REQUIRES ENERGY TO RUN PUMP. I hope you understand the principle I do not know 100% how working. It is important that water freezes several months.when all the water is frozen then it should be defrosted and this is done after a few months with the solar heat panel  and the process continues.
VERY IMPORTANT--When the water goes from ice to liquid releases energy 300kj 1 kg--When the water goes from liquid to vapor releases energy( Or requir when we heated)2300kj 1 kg--When the water goes into hho or gas 11000kj 1kg--NOW WHAT DO YOU THINK THE ENERGY REQUIRED FOR STATE OF PLASMA---HYDROGEN IONIZATION 72160kj 1 KG
300--2300--11000--72160 CONCLUSION WHEN WE GOING FORWARD WE NEED MORE ENERGY It is a good But it requires a large input ENERGY(for STARTING plasma) WHAT IS ALSO GOOD We can make a powerful machines*********BUT MOST IMPORTANT IS ENERGY EQUILIBRIUM*******All we can do in these processes is affect the time and it is important to restore the energy consumed .    I hope I got hit in the heart of the problem. IF ANYONE OUT THERE PLEASE LET THE NOTICE  TO RUSS

the only thing we can do is try... so far it the entire energy level goes up... its dose not mater wherw we sit as long as we can keep that energy level going... you see this "crossover"  is where we substain this high level of energy... once its stared it will keep going...

i believe energy is everywhere, we just need to let it flow through our system and use it as it passes... like wind and a win turban. like the sun and photovoltaic process... all things just get converted as they flow through the system. nothing is losed nothing is gained. energy is not created nor destroyed. only constantly changing.

so weather we are at  1j or 100mj its still just flowing from one state to the other... use it as it flows through the system... " crossover" this is where we gain out efficiency's... same as bob describes in his last video.  as of right now i do agree on this.

~Russ

MAN(it is not when, I tried everything but can not find that word)  YOU awakening up.   I just want to point out some things that might be a good clue and I think we are on the right path that really coincides with my theory on which I recently worked.Plasma instead I thought something else used I'll tell you what ,if this NGE fails to function.(That's why I joined the forum because it's amazing that different people and opinions come to the same decision.RETAIL ELECTRONICS  IS NOT CLEAR TO ME But never mind I was just wondering if Helium requests 2372 k

Russ - I decided it was too much hassle trying to build and calibrate a Geiger counter, so I bought one. It's a neat little box, and looks to be excellent design - should do all you need.
http://www.dosimeter4you.com/geiger-counter-radiation-detector-soeks-defender-p-93.html
Note there is also a cheaper version that does not have the dose totalisation. They are around half the cost of any equivalent I've seen, and I'd suspect the Russians have become pretty good at building them, anyway.

I doubt that there's any need to check for alphas (this detects higher-energy betas, gammas and X-rays), but if that does become necessary then a detector is easy to build.

Bob did it again, released a fantastic video showing little to no heat build up with the popper running.
https://www.youtube.com/user/bjrohner

Maybe now that the other guy is out of the picture Bob will release more updates showing his setup and progress!!! We can only hope and hats off to Bob.

Russ with your new 3d printer you could print out a popper body. :D

No need to Teflon insulate the electrodes with an ABS body. Do you think the ABS would hold up to the pressures?

element 119

Quote from element 119 on March 29th, 2013, 02:27 PM

Bob did it again, released a fantastic video showing little to no heat build up with the popper running.
https://www.youtube.com/user/bjrohner

Maybe now that the other guy is out of the picture Bob will release more updates showing his setup and progress!!! We can only hope and hats off to Bob.

Russ with your new 3d printer you could print out a popper body. :D

No need to Teflon insulate the electrodes with an ABS body. Do you think the ABS would hold up to the pressures?

element 119

I'm not sure if ABS would hold up, wasn't Bob saying he was pushing against 400 some PSI?  I've pressure tested a PLA 3d print under water at 100 PSI with only minor leaks.  That was gradual increases and not explosions.  PLA is stiffer and more brittle than ABS, so that comparison could be way off.

Nate

So we have left to discover the mystery box and the secret sauce.  Shouldn't be all that tough to figure out.

Quote from Dog-One on March 29th, 2013, 06:41 PM

So we have left to discover the mystery box and the secret sauce.  Shouldn't be all that tough to figure out.

I agree Dog-1 to find out what is in the magic box would be interesting. I suggested an ABS popper body but Firepinto pointed out he did not think it would hold up to the pressures. After re-watching Bob’s latest I noticed some of his wiring setup.

I was not sure where the cap supplying the bleed off motor was getting its power. I now can see that both (buckets) are wired together and going to the cap + and the cap – is wired to the popper body. So apparently whatever extra voltage is floating around inside the popper body goes to the bleed-off cap and motor.

This would (maybe) indicate that both the HV and DC are going to the 2 electrodes maybe with a diode setup like you have in your Gen-set arrangement.

Anyway it is fun watching videos of both Russ and Bob as they work with the NGE.

element 119

Quote from element 119 on March 29th, 2013, 08:29 PM

I was not sure where the cap supplying the bleed off motor was getting its power. I now can see that both (buckets) are wired together and going to the cap + and the cap – is wired to the popper body. So apparently whatever extra voltage is floating around inside the popper body goes to the bleed-off cap and motor.

element 119

This is a very important observation!  It is what I observed also, and I am very glad you have pointed this out for discussion. In previous videos, it was not clear where the motor was connected, but now we know.  

The next step is to connect a scope and observe two traces, the first, a trace that would be representative of the current in the discharge, the second, a trace of the voltage going to the cap/motor (or possibly the current feeding the cap).

If the motor voltage or current occurs at the same time, and only during the discharge, then we may have to suspect that the buckets have only served the purpose of getting in the way of the discharge and siphoning off some of the voltage.  The arc itself is a voltage divider:  ground on one electrode, and the cap discharge voltage on the other.  Any electrode (radioactive filled bucket or otherwise) placed at the midpoint of the two electrodes should 'pick up' a voltage that is half of the cap discharge voltage.

But, if the motor voltage is seen to occur some time after the main discharge, then, and only then, can we begin to attribute this to some strange 'back emf' associated with a collapse of the plasma, etc.

I am not being critical of Bob's tests - i give him Kudos for conducting such tests and making the results public.  Of all the people working on this, including myself, only Bob and Russ have been the ones to be the most prolific with the video production.

Thanks for reading,

kcd

Quote from heero yueh on March 29th, 2013, 04:36 PM

To Bob Rohner and Russ and the builders in the group,

I have done the experiment of dumping a 32,000 Microfarad capacitor into plain air and I get no temperature rise whatsoever. The initial flash is very bright. I have a balloon on my chamber and it inflates instantly, and after 3.5 seconds it returns to its initial drooped position indicating return to the exact atmospheric pressure that existed at the start.
The air or any gas can expand due to heat or it can expand by another procses and be heated by the new pressure that it is under. When the force that caused this new pressure goes away (after the 3.5 seconds) the contracting of the gas exactly removes the heat caused by the pressure. My theory is that the Papp process is entirely electrostatic! The nobel gasses are very good Insulators electrically. Therefor a static charge is deposited on the molecules of the gasses and causes them to repel each other. This repelling causes the increase in pressure and as the static charge leakes back into the electrodes or surrounding metal to zero charge the pressure slowly reduces to equal atmospheric pressure again. I will assume that it is a negative charge caused by the high concentration of current at the positive electrode.  This high concentration causes each electron received by the anode to knock two or three or more others off of the tungsten electrode. This is similar to Photo multipliers used in image enhancers where each electron knocks off several electrons that are all attracted to the next stage for further multiplication till after the last stage the signal is approximately 1 Volt P to P.    This is also used in Image Orthicones used in TV cameras of the 1960's age. As the problem seems to be the long delay in return to atmospheric pressure, if this theory is correct all that needs to be done is to add some conductive material or gas to the mixture of nobel gasses so that the charge will leak off quicker. Then the RPM could be increased to a much higher value. I hope that this helps. The world needs this technology, so I will do whatever I can to further its development.

Willard[/size][/font]

Quote from heero yueh on March 29th, 2013, 04:36 PM

The feedback current motor stopped spinning near the end of the video. This is concerning because something is stopping the feedback current generation.

In a two cylinder Papp engine, the feedback current should be constant to power the other cylinder.
----------------------------------------------------

Bob Rohner said in the video comments:

To continue. People have joined with me to get this done and hopefully make a profit for their effort. I am a believer in greed, I am a believer in incentive, I am a believer in the American system of free enterprise. I do not believe in open sourcing. It results only in a free ticket for the rich to control and provides no incentive to bring a product to market. Anything I say to you tonight could be on someone else's provisional patent tomorrow. I appreciate your comments.

Does anyone know patent law?

I thought that Papp had all this stuff covered in his patents. How can Bob Rohner claim intellectual property on this technology when so many others have covered the same subject with patents that have expired?

Quote from Axil on March 30th, 2013, 12:22 PM

The feedback current motor stopped spinning near the end of the video. This is concerning because something is stopping the feedback current generation.

In a two cylinder Papp engine, the feedback current should be constant to power the other cylinder.

Or we need to measure and verify where it is coming from before loosing to much sleep over it....

The evolution of strange phenomenon:

1) Wow that's cool!
2) What could it be?
3) It looks like (fill in the blank)
4) Let's verify that!
5) Let's tell everyone!!!

We are at step #3.  Need to do step #4 before moving on to step #5.

Just saying...

kcd

edited to remove redundant post...

Quote from Axil on March 30th, 2013, 12:22 PM

I thought that Papp had all this stuff covered in his patents. How can Bob Rohner claim intellectual property on this technology when so many others have covered the same subject with patents that have expired?

Axil - let's say I invent a widget that makes the engine run much better. The basic idea of the motor is public knowledge, but it won't work well without the widget. That widget should be patentable. Lots of patents are small improvements on stuff that is pretty well-known - I have a patent on a paper-sensor idea that I thought was pretty obvious at the time. The important thing is to get the critical things into a patent, and that should pay for all the effort it took to get to this point. Bob has a lot of research in how the gas-mixture reacts, and how things need to be built. Kudos doesn't pay the rent.

It needs to be seen to be worthwhile to invest money in inventions, otherwise it's only crackpots like us that will discuss things in public.

Quote from Bob Rohner

To continue. People have joined with me to get this done and hopefully make a profit for their effort. I am a believer in greed, I am a believer in incentive, I am a believer in the American system of free enterprise. I do not believe in open sourcing. It results only in a free ticket for the rich to control and provides no incentive to bring a product to market. Anything I say to you tonight could be on someone else's provisional patent tomorrow. I appreciate your comments.

It's unfortunate he feels this way; begs the question, "Who are these videos actually being made for?"

Apparently, Bob doesn't realize "the American system of free enterprise" is dead.  Ron Paul has stated this many times and you don't need to be a genius to see what has replaced it.

I would bet my life someone on this forum would more likely help me get a NGE generator up-n-running in my basement, long before any of the Rohner brothers do.  Keep at it guys.  Your smarts and your work will be appreciated.

Quote from k c dias on March 30th, 2013, 12:48 PM

Quote from Axil on March 30th, 2013, 12:22 PM

The feedback current motor stopped spinning near the end of the video. This is concerning because something is stopping the feedback current generation.

In a two cylinder Papp engine, the feedback current should be constant to power the other cylinder.

Or we need to measure and verify where it is coming from before loosing to much sleep over it.  

The evolution of strange phenomenon:

1) Wow that's cool!
2) What could it be?
3) It looks like (fill in the blank)
4) Let's verify that!
5) Let's tell everyone!!!

We are at step #3.  Need to do step #4 before moving on to step #5.

Just saying...

kcd

We are beyond #4 because we can see the wheel on the feedback current motor spinning.

It is verified; the Papp reaction produces feedback current.

Bob Rohner’s two cylinder motor won’t work until he can fix what is killing the feedback current.

This video shows the popper working but does it begin to fail as time goes on? We have no evidence that it retains its power production over a long timeframe.

The failure of the feedback current may indicated that the popper is losing power over time.

Quote from Ris on March 30th, 2013, 05:43 AM

My observations on heat.Every liter of noble gases HAS POTENTIAL THERMAL CAPACITY 0.900J-1J  roughly 250cc have 0.250J of heat
Carbonsteel 1kg 450J--ALUMINIUM 1kg 900J  heat capacity If you submit TEMPERATURE FROM SPARKS WE NEED 3600 IGNITIONS TO raise the temperature of 1 degree not yet taken into account the thermal conductivity of Aluminium And how much in SPARKS THE HEAT SIZE CYLINDER PISTON TIME NO IGNITION  AIR TEMPERATURE TUNGSTEN CONDUCTION.Forget FIGURES-,PARTICLE NUMBER IS IMPORTANT THAT WE DO.The universe is a terrible cold, but no particleswhich would have carry the COLD.BECAUSE I THINK Since WE have a little particle We can QUICKLY warm and cool Which is very important for this model.
NOT UNDERSTAND EVERY TIME FROM VIDEO WHAT IS THE PROBLEM(And from conversations)  Would be good if someone tells me the exact problem.
So where are you Russ man,talk with me whether is valid what I am writing.
SO WHAT DO YOU SAY.

Youre right, what's the problem, what's the deal here? We already know there isn't much heat in the papp reaction. So testwise etc. this video isn't showing much to get new insights.

If Bob would show some different mixtures and show how they perform and put the numbers along with it, then we would have gotten some new information.
Even if he would give the electric input numbers it would be worth looking at, but he's not open sourcing, he is just showing and staying within the realm of what he agreed to share with his co-developers/investors.

So we can't really hassle him about giving more info

What we can find in this and other video's is how he gets the feedback current.

We Russ-poppies haven't found that with proof yet, but could easily make that little milestone victory the coming time.

Quote from FaradayEZ on March 30th, 2013, 02:34 PM

Quote from Ris on March 30th, 2013, 05:43 AM

My observations on heat.Every liter of noble gases HAS POTENTIAL THERMAL CAPACITY 0.900J-1J  roughly 250cc have 0.250J of heat
Carbonsteel 1kg 450J--ALUMINIUM 1kg 900J  heat capacity If you submit TEMPERATURE FROM SPARKS WE NEED 3600 IGNITIONS TO raise the temperature of 1 degree not yet taken into account the thermal conductivity of Aluminium And how much in SPARKS THE HEAT SIZE CYLINDER PISTON TIME NO IGNITION  AIR TEMPERATURE TUNGSTEN CONDUCTION.Forget FIGURES-,PARTICLE NUMBER IS IMPORTANT THAT WE DO.The universe is a terrible cold, but no particleswhich would have carry the COLD.BECAUSE I THINK Since WE have a little particle We can QUICKLY warm and cool Which is very important for this model.
NOT UNDERSTAND EVERY TIME FROM VIDEO WHAT IS THE PROBLEM(And from conversations)  Would be good if someone tells me the exact problem.
So where are you Russ man,talk with me whether is valid what I am writing.
SO WHAT DO YOU SAY.
Youre right, what's the problem, what's the deal here? We already know there isn't much heat in the papp reaction. So testwise etc. this video isn't showing much to get new insights.

If Bob would show some different mixtures and show how they perform and put the numbers along with it, then we would have gotten some new information.
Even if he would give the electric input numbers it would be worth looking at, but he's not open sourcing, he is just showing and staying within the realm of what he agreed to share with his co-developers/investors.

So we can't really hassle him about giving more info

What we can find in this and other video's is how he gets the feedback current.

We Russ-poppies haven't found that with proof yet, but could easily make that little milestone victory the coming time.

but because would not to accede to the problem mathematical(refer me to the problem)--Maybe it's no problem,sorts of things that is going on the forum I do not know really more who helps whom and for what reasons- i have no interest for money only engine is running.GREETINGS

Something I messed it up--What exactly does this mean(QUOTE THIS MESSAGE IN A REPLY)  (QUOTE THIS POST) (POST REPLY) (PREVIEW POST)





TO ME Easter arrived a little while ago So I wish all the best to everyone. RIS

Hello all,
Outstanding job. I have been lurking on the forums and youtube channels for a while now and following Russ's progress with the popper replication in particular, with avid interest. With all the "fuelless generators" that have been propposed and ultimatly failed to come to market, I think the Papp process shows the most promise of actually delivering a viable alternative to the ICE.

I totally understand Bobs stance on wishing to capitalize on all the years of hell and heartache he has invested in this, however I cannot help but feel "something" will pop up and this entire approach will be blocked from ever seeing the light of day. That is why i am so impressed with the efforts of all of you to open source this and help out anyone that feels they have the skillset required to replicate the device. I feel that Without independent experimenters like all of you shining light on it for all to see, this technology will never be available as an "off the shelf" device. As paranoid as that sounds, history has proven that the established "powers that be" have an incredible desire for self preservation. Any practical device that comes to market utilizing this technology will undoubtably be seen as "revolutionary" and will not be embraced with open arm by governments or big oil, regardless of all the positive bennifits associated with a cheap and easy, totally green, energy system. It would completely render all the current infrastructure useless, and destroy billions of dollars of anual revenue. The initial damage to the economy alone would almost guarantee that whoever tries to bring this to market will be either quietly bought out or otherwise "discredited" as a fraud... Regardless of the validity of the science.

I am an experienced machinist, with access to all kinds of toys to fabricate all the metal bits, but have a serious lack of skills when it comes to whipping up the electronics end of things. I will eventually correct that shortcoming, as I really have a strong desire to build something practical for my own personal use that capitalizes on the unique expansion and collapes phenomena of the noble gas/ plasma reaction. While I would love to be the first to engineer a sellable, practical device, I am realistic enough to understand that there are others far more qualified to do it than I am. I would settle for being able to run down to Home Depot and buy one. No discredit to Bob, but I just do not ever see that happening in my lifetime.

 I believe he has succesfully shown that whatever Joe Papp stumbled upon is viable and real, and regardless of whether or not it is ever classed as "overunity", his machine creates a very efficient way to capitalize on recycling a pressure differential and creating usable work. I would love to have a very small, multi cylinder version of it quietly chugging away under the hood of my Nisan leaf 24/7... When I plug it in at night, it would quietly give back to the grid, and keep my beer cold. :)

Anyway, thanks for all your effort Russ.  This is an extremely talented and varied group of individuals that have all been united by a common vision and gathered together to cheer you on.... Bring it out of the dark and hand it to the world to do with what it will.

~Winger~