Quote from gpssonar on October 29th, 2016, 02:30 PM

@ sebosfato I'm sure with your Bachelor and Physics Course they taught you exactly how this works. It's annoying me see people with so much smartness that has been working on this for many many years still has put out nothing but their theories for years and years. Hope the best to you as well...! Keep throwing voltage to the water, your physics may someday cause a lighting bolt to happened a wala Huge amount of Gas!!!!!!!!

The physics tell nothing about this process but it clear up all the magic from the theories allowing the man to view the situation from a scientific perspective and be more effective in design what is needed to achieve the goal. Just wanted to incentive most here to take a step further than just try again! The cell is a spring and the coils for me is like mass so it's a resonant system, voltage is force or displacement and current is speed of the mass... the transformer make the system shake... the diode allow th system to only have current in one direction.... I truly hope you find real gas on demand too! I'm also after the atomic energy in water but for that gas production must be compared with faraday gas heating up water with a torch like... why don't you show you temperature rise and show how much energy you are using? Wouldn't it be enough for prove your point?
Another way of looking at it is as it follows... imagine a guitar string connected another string thru a spring (the cell) what makes the springs tensioned is a D.C. Souce so the strings work like  two chokes.... now how you make it sound ? And what happen to the spring holding the tensions ? Well some food for you thoughts...

Quote From Matt:

"Suppose I had a brute force electrolysis cell making about 3 liters per minute.  Now suppose I had a high voltage source connected to a dry WFC--any high voltage source, nothing special, no VIC required.  If I pushed the gas from this brute force cell into this otherwise empty WFC, what would happen to that gas once it was exposed to high voltage DC?   Would this gas become more energetic?  Enough to run an engine?"

Thanks Matt..
I've been thinking about this for 2 days. I have extra cells that can make 2-4 LPM
and a VIC....Just not sure if I can get my Vic up to 10,000V....
Might give it a shot next week..
Thanks again to GPS for all of the help.

Quote from HMS-776 on October 29th, 2016, 05:29 PM

Nav,

You bring up some great points.

I don't see the VIC as a flyback though.
The reason is because the flyback produces voltage in a different manner than the VIC.

A flyback depends on short high current pulses through an inductance...When the magnetic field collapses it produces a high current through the inductance.  V=L *di/dt shows you how the voltage is produced.

Yes Stans explanations are very similar...But I don't believe they describe a flyback.

In the VIC the voltage is generated by a small current flowing through a large reactance.  V=i * XL, V=i * XC

Do the math used for basic transformers....You'll find the turns ratio produces around 60V across the secondary coil....In a series resonant circuit at resonance the only impedance is the resistance in the circuit (around 220 ohms for the 3 coils).
Take 60V/220 ohms = 270mA .

Now...Stan states the cell uses up to 20kV
How much reactance would it take for the 1.262H choke to produce 20kV?

20kV/.27A = 74,000 ohms impedance
Now....What is the impedance of 1.262H at 10kHz?
Answer: 79,000 Ohms

That shows you using the actual measured valued of Stan's VIC & L1 choke that just below 10kHz the circuit will produce 20kV across the cell...If it's at resonance, that's the hard part!

Some interesting points to debate. Ronnie changed his coil configuration yesterday so that not only L2 opposes the secondary but now L1 also opposes the secondary too. Stan explained in his technical brief that the diode stops a dead short between the secondary and L1 during pulse off time, the way Ronnie has it configured you have positive to positive on the L1 side and negative to negative on the L2 side. What would we consider has a dead short? positive to positive?
Are we saying that the 3 secondaries on the VIC are not working in reverse bias while charging but are discharging during pulse on time? When is self resonance taking place?
The way Ronnie had the coils configured yesterday, they could work in reverse bias mode but today they are in forward bias mode. But the only probem with forward bias mode during pulse on time is that the voltage field and current can actually escape from the VIC into the load.
It's all got a bit confusing because Ronnie has changed L1's wiring configuration.

Quote from gpssonar on October 28th, 2016, 02:15 AM

Matt, the secondary and L1 are aiding each other and the secondary and L2 are opposing each other.
That's how you get a B+ voltage and B- voltage. Compare the two photos below and you can see the aiding and opposing.
The second photo came out of the Grobb book if you want to look it up. It's in the chapter 19 Inductance. It will also teach you how to calculate the mutual inductance of aiding and opposing coils. I'm not getting into the Math of it all, Right now I just want everyone to be able to Identify all the working parts of the VIC.

Yes Ronnie definately said L1 and the secondary aid each other and L2 and the secondary oppose each other with the above explanation. Now he has both chokes opposing the secondary. Glad the soldering iron hasn't come out yet, there would be solder everywhere lol.

I'll tell you guys what i'll do just for experiment sake. My VIC is complete in the way Ronnie told us to do it apart from the wires are not soldered together yet because I waited until the 24th to do that and i'm still kinda waiting to decide what to do because i'm not blowing it up.
I'll unwind the primary so the primary only has 100 turns on it and then i'll wind the feedback on top of it. My drive circuit just needs 2 resistors and a few wires moving about to re-create the reverse bias system or flyback drive system. I'll then see what the output of the VIC is and see if I can run a jacobs ladder for short periods of time, I can't be fairer than that. This way we can totally elliminate flyback theory and move forward if it doesn't work.

Nav, X-blade, whoever:

I really don't see the need to "prove" anything with regards to assuming that Meyer must have used a flyback circuit to start with, what could that possibly lead to anyway?

Let's say he did, or let's say he didn't, I'm good with either one of them.

Here Ronnie is telling us what he has found to be the way Meyer's VIC and WCF systems work and that's just fine with me, I don't feel a need to sort of categorise parts of his circuit or to find the original theories behind any given part of this technology, I'm just happy that I'm able to take part of all this the way it is, the way Ronnie has figured this out, that's what's important to me.

Once I have my cell up and running according to plan, then I can delve in what's what throughout the whole build, if I see a need to.

Meanwhile I'm all ears to what Ronnie has to say.

Quote from Lynx on October 30th, 2016, 04:48 AM

Nav, X-blade, whoever:

I really don't see the need to "prove" anything with regards to assuming that Meyer must have used a flyback circuit to start with, what could that possibly lead to anyway?

Let's say he did, or let's say he didn't, I'm good with either one of them.

Here Ronnie is telling us what he has found to be the way Meyer's VIC and WCF systems work and that's just fine with me, I don't feel a need to sort of categorise parts of his circuit or to find the original theories behind any given part of this technology, I'm just happy that I'm able to take part of all this the way it is, the way Ronnie has figured this out, that's what's important to me.

Once I have my cell up and running according to plan, then I can delve in what's what throughout the whole build, if I see a need to.

Meanwhile I'm all ears to what Ronnie has to say.

I agree Lynx, i've started my own thread investigating tv flybacks, this will allow Ronnie to get on with what is important to him. Cheers

Quote from nav on October 30th, 2016, 04:50 AM

I agree Lynx, i've started my own thread investigating tv flybacks, this will allow Ronnie to get on with what is important to him. Cheers

:thumbsup:

Back on topic i'd like to ask Ronnie a question about his VIC. Now that you've switched the polarity of L1 to oppose the secondary, can you explain its mode of operation after this quite significant change?
You said to Matt:

Quote

Matt, the secondary and L1 are aiding each other and the secondary and L2 are opposing each other.
That's how you get a B+ voltage and B- voltage. Compare the two photos below and you can see the aiding and opposing.
The second photo came out of the Grobb book if you want to look it up. It's in the chapter 19 Inductance. It will also teach you how to calculate the mutual inductance of aiding and opposing coils. I'm not getting into the Math of it all, Right now I just want everyone to be able to Identify all the working parts of the VIC.

Now the VIC has no aiding and opposing effect how is the B+ and B- voltage attained? Does the changing of polarity in L1 change your theory?

I agree with lynx.
try ronnies way as he describes and instead of a jacobs ladder put the scope on it and the water cell and play with it. Take notes and measurements then when you see the objective of the desired gas happen then look at all the data you record as you make changes. Once it does happen then you can push the olterations further to see if improvement or degregation occures. Once you have that data you can take an actual fly back circuit and compare the data.
i thought from what little science lab experience i had that it is best and most accurate to get a copy of a model working as per textbook first as base then modify and datalog from that base onwards.
Too many theories and too many changes at one time without trying one variable and datalog would lead to unknown variables not being noted or missed.

Scientific lab studies were not my strong suit but that was hammered at me as gospel. One  change at a time, collect data. Compare and analize data. Then change a second variable or next theory to test. A jacobs ladder may not behave the same as the water cell. You may loose some significant part altogether.

Take it for what it is worth.

Merc

Quote from Lynx on October 30th, 2016, 04:48 AM

Nav, X-blade, whoever:

I really don't see the need to "prove" anything with regards to assuming that Meyer must have used a flyback circuit to start with, what could that possibly lead to anyway?

Let's say he did, or let's say he didn't, I'm good with either one of them.

Here Ronnie is telling us what he has found to be the way Meyer's VIC and WCF systems work and that's just fine with me, I don't feel a need to sort of categorise parts of his circuit or to find the original theories behind any given part of this technology, I'm just happy that I'm able to take part of all this the way it is, the way Ronnie has figured this out, that's what's important to me.

Once I have my cell up and running according to plan, then I can delve in what's what throughout the whole build, if I see a need to.

Meanwhile I'm all ears to what Ronnie has to say.

Quote from sebosfato on October 30th, 2016, 01:54 AM

The physics tell nothing about this process but it clear up all the magic from the theories allowing the man to view the situation from a scientific perspective and be more effective in design what is needed to achieve the goal. Just wanted to incentive most here to take a step further than just try again! The cell is a spring and the coils for me is like mass so it's a resonant system, voltage is force or displacement and current is speed of the mass... the transformer make the system shake... the diode allow th system to only have current in one direction.... I truly hope you find real gas on demand too! I'm also after the atomic energy in water but for that gas production must be compared with faraday gas heating up water with a torch like... why don't you show you temperature rise and show how much energy you are using? Wouldn't it be enough for prove your point?
Another way of looking at it is as it follows... imagine a guitar string connected another string thru a spring (the cell) what makes the springs tensioned is a D.C. Souce so the strings work like  two chokes.... now how you make it sound ? And what happen to the spring holding the tensions ? Well some food for you thoughts...

exact science says it is impossible to obtain a high voltage in VIC with existing windings ratio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88_6SQKuTHk
but exact science is not exact science

Some scope shots would be handy trying to understanding what Ronnie is saying. I'd like to see the current across the primary for one during pulse on time, the secondaries during pulse off time too especially when the spark plug was being driven. It's hard to grasp without scope shots from all the different phases of the VIC. Scopes tell everything.

Nav,

Stan states in the tech brief that all coils are aiding each other.

None of his drawings show the diode reverse biased to make it a flyback.

Yes he does talk about the chokes producing a pulse during the off time....But any inductor does that.

I can see when you look at things there are alot of similarities....But the math also works the other way.

Have you done the math to calculate the voltage that would be produced if the vic were to operate like a flyback?

Quote from HMS-776 on October 30th, 2016, 09:50 AM

Nav,

Stan states in the tech brief that all coils are aiding each other.

None of his drawings show the diode reverse biased to make it a flyback.

Yes he does talk about the chokes producing a pulse during the off time....But any inductor does that.

I can see when you look at things there are alot of similarities....But the math also works the other way.

Have you done the math to calculate the voltage that would be produced if the vic were to operate like a flyback?

But Ronnie has them opposing each other.
Stan says this about it in his brief:

Quote

Blocking Diode (B) prevents electrical "shorting" to
 secondary coil (A) during pulse-off time since
the diode "only" conducts electrical energy in the direction of the schematic arrow.

Its all rather confusing isn't it?

Watch this video, then compare it to the drawing with the phasing dots that Stan has on his drawing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuZh1QnegC4

I'm with Ronnie, I think he has L1 and L2 opposing the secondary to restrict current flow then the diode only allows voltage to leave in the direction of the bias. I'm really interested to know what the secondaries are doing during pulse on time while the primary is building up the magnetic field though because those secondaries at some point will change polarity. Is the diode at reverse bias during pulse on or is it in forward bias? If the secondaries are in forward bias then the current is restricted apart from the leakage current that exists because L2 has fewer windings. That may be enough to allow brute force to line the cell walls with bubbles like Lynx mentioned then when resonance takes place the impedance is matched to gas not water. But are you not still left with the problem of all 3 secondaries jumping polarity during pulse off time? Surely that jump would put the VIC into reverse bias?

Quote from nav on October 30th, 2016, 10:13 AM

That may be enough to allow brute force to line the cell walls with bubbles like Lynx mentioned then when resonance takes place the impedance is matched to gas not water.

Let's just acknowlege that my theories are just that, theories, or to be specific they're more like  questions as I'm only ranting out loud here with no actual VIC/WFC setup to poke around with (yet).

Ronnie, if you wind all the coils the same way and you apply positive voltage to the primary as pictured below then all the other 3 coils follow suit. I know that because i've tested my VIC.
If you switch the positive to the other side of the primary then the 3 other coils follow suit. I think most people know this. The question is, are the coils additive (each negative is connected to the positive of its neighbour coil) or are they opposed (negative of secondary connected to negative of L2 and positive of secondary connected to positive of L1)

Quote from Ris on October 30th, 2016, 05:45 AM

exact science says it is impossible to obtain a high voltage in VIC with existing windings ratio

Correct Ris, unless you employ the concept of resonant rise.

This is why I highly recommend people build this VIC as Ronnie is describing it and demonstrate the same effect Ronnie shows here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5XP93XiSgk

Do this first.

Then let's work towards the next step of initiating electrolysis by tuning the negative choke.

I'm becoming more and more convinced the VIC actually sets up a condition at the atomic level of H₂O that creates stress on the molecule in a way no other device does.  We need to stick to the plan for now.  Once people have it working, then you all are free to pursue all sorts of variations.  I think what you'll find though is there is really only one mechanism at work here and until it is fully understood, any variation from this mechanism will prove to be a dead end.

Quote from Matt Watts on October 30th, 2016, 11:46 AM

I'm becoming more and more convinced the VIC actually sets up a condition at the atomic level of H₂O that creates stress on the molecule in a way no other device does.  We need to stick to the plan for now.  Once people have it working, then you all are free to pursue all sorts of variations.  I think what you'll find though is there is really only one mechanism at work here and until it is fully understood, any variation from this mechanism will prove to be a dead end.

What he said.
And then some.

Matt we need to build the vic,but like i said in the past,the friking  C core stops the build dead in his tracks.I build the 2 flyback cores vic ,Vic card with all the functions on it modify it to go to 50khz,i made the cores adjustable,same wire as stans bought from US,BUT I only got 17v on a 6series cells,no matter what i do,the voltage is soo weak it was not able to generate 1buble.
Can we gather more of us and  make an order for manufacturing flat C cores?

Adys15 how you had determined the primary wind turns?
Transformers are much more than simple turns ratio.

Quote from adys15 on October 30th, 2016, 12:16 PM

Matt we need to build the vic,but like i said in the past,the friking  C core stops the build dead in his tracks.I build the 2 flyback cores vic ,Vic card with all the functions on it modify it to go to 50khz,i made the cores adjustable,same wire as stans bought from US,BUT I only got 17v on a 6series cells,no matter what i do,the voltage is soo weak it was not able to generate 1buble.

So you put water in the cell I reckon.  Bad idea.  Run it dry and tune.  At least get some sparks if possible.

I may well have the same problem with my cores and will soon know.  I'm using Bridgeport Magnetics Amorphous C-cores, BMCC 50s.

I'll be wiring this as per Ronnie's direction.  If with his help I cannot achieve high voltage sparks, then I'll know the cores and/or the math is way off from where I need to be.  Maybe back to the drawing board, maybe not.  We will see when I get to that point.

Ronnie knows a lot more about what is critical and what is not.  I'm sure there is even more none of us know, so watch your step in the minefield for now and follow a path that has at least worked for Ronnie.

That part I dont understand, if you tune it without water it will change when there is gas or water and not air.

The only way I see that possiblity is to be related to the coil self resonance