Complete VIC schematic and pcb

Webmug

RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #125, on March 28th, 2012, 09:42 AM »
Quote from Jeff Nading on March 28th, 2012, 07:27 AM
Quote from Sharky on March 28th, 2012, 06:55 AM
Just uploaded the last version of the project, made some small changes, now it is locking in up to 5.2KHz, beyond that there is no lock but should not be a problem as resonance is probably a lot lower. I hope to have a first test pcb in by the end of next week. If that tests out allright we can make the V1.0 design final.
Where did you upload it to Sharky?
Start of this thread.
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=311&pid=2628#pid2628

Br,
Webmug


Jeff Nading

RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #126, on March 28th, 2012, 10:38 AM »
Quote from Webmug on March 28th, 2012, 09:42 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on March 28th, 2012, 07:27 AM
Quote from Sharky on March 28th, 2012, 06:55 AM
Just uploaded the last version of the project, made some small changes, now it is locking in up to 5.2KHz, beyond that there is no lock but should not be a problem as resonance is probably a lot lower. I hope to have a first test pcb in by the end of next week. If that tests out allright we can make the V1.0 design final.
Where did you upload it to Sharky?
Start of this thread.
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=311&pid=2628#pid2628

Br,
Webmug
Thanks.

Webmug

RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #127, on March 28th, 2012, 10:55 AM »
Quote from Jeff Nading on March 28th, 2012, 05:29 AM
Also Tony, what is meant by an AM waveform just above resonant frequency, could you explain, thanks.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but how do you charge a capacitor with AM waveform?
Not with AC voltage.

Br,
Webmug

danielgpalacios

RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #128, on March 28th, 2012, 11:25 AM »
Quote from Sharky on January 18th, 2012, 06:05 AM
Several people already have build their VIC circuits based on pictures and the schematics from WO9207861. If we want to replicate Meyers work and get the cell to work we need the complete schematics. Since 'they' only sell their complete VIC schematics and do not give the full design for free its time to work it out completely and offer it for FREE (yes i share the thoughts of Russ that this will only work if all is available for free).

Haxar already did some fine work in tracing the VIC card. I now started to completely design the entire VIC with KICAD. I choose this toolset because it is available on Linux/Windows, it is open-source, reasonable easy to learn, it supports nested schematics, it comes with a good autorouter function and has the abillity to generate gerber files for pcb manufacturing. Anyway, ... if you do not like KICAD it is your problem :P, else download it at http://kicad.sourceforge.net. I used KiCad-2011-12-28-BZR3254-stable-Win_full_with_components_doc_install.exe from http://iut-tice.ujf-grenoble.fr/cao/ . If you download the snapshots the libraries will not get installed. Download the project zip file and use the unarchive option in the KiCad main menu to load it.

Complete:
- variable pulse generator
- gated pulse generator
- phase lock loop circuit
- pulse indicator circuit
- resonant scanning circuit
- Voltage Amplitude Control
- cell driver circuit

Schematics build on prototype board and verified:
- variable pulse generator
- gated pulse generator
- phase lock loop circuit
- pulse indicator circuit
- resonant scanning circuit
- Voltage Amplitude Control
- cell driver circuit

PCB:
- Components to modules complete for current schematic
- Components placed and traces made
- Generated Gerber files

Latest KiCad project file date: 28 march 2012

Regards,
Sharky
Sharky: thank you for you job. In the cell driver the bc556 is ok? Because the emisor is conected to gnd and colector to vcc. Is the PNP transistor. Is polarized in inverse.

Jeff Nading

RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #129, on March 28th, 2012, 11:43 AM »
Quote from Webmug on March 28th, 2012, 10:55 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on March 28th, 2012, 05:29 AM
Also Tony, what is meant by an AM waveform just above resonant frequency, could you explain, thanks.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but how do you charge a capacitor with AM waveform?
Not with AC voltage.

Br,
Webmug
One reason why I am asking for clarification.

TonyWoodside

RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #130, on March 28th, 2012, 11:55 AM »Last edited on March 28th, 2012, 11:57 AM by TonyWoodside
@Webmug - The only way that I have gotten the cell to charge is when I was testing with the 8XA circuit which produced a pretty AM waveform are 2.2khz - 2.6khz. The cell would charge to over 800v pk-pk and I would get a little HHO. The diode in the circuit keeps the current in one direction instead of allowing it to swing. You usually get an AM signal just above the resonant frequency and in Stan's documents he says XL > XC, so this tells me that the circuit has to be totally inductive. As you know at resonance XL = XC, so its not resonance in a sense. Also from further testing I noticed that the 2.2khz - 2.6khz that I was getting could be done without the cell connected, meaning the resonance was taking place in the coils itself.
one other thing, in Stan's VIC Circuit he didnt use the 4017's in the PLL circuit. I think I know why, it looks like the 4017's dont produce a 50% duty cycle. The only way to get 50% duty cycle is to run it straight off the PLL.

Jeff Nading

RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #131, on March 28th, 2012, 12:03 PM »
Quote from TonyWoodside on March 28th, 2012, 11:55 AM
@Webmug - The only way that I have gotten the cell to charge is when I was testing with the 8XA circuit which produced a pretty AM waveform are 2.2khz - 2.6khz. The cell would charge to over 800v pk-pk and I would get a little HHO. The diode in the circuit keeps the current in one direction instead of allowing it to swing. You usually get an AM signal just above the resonant frequency and in Stan's documents he says XL > XC, so this tells me that the circuit has to be totally inductive. As you know at resonance XL = XC, so its not resonance in a sense. Also from further testing I noticed that the 2.2khz - 2.6khz that I was getting could be done without the cell connected, meaning the resonance was taking place in the coils itself.

one other thing, in Stan's VIC Circuit he didnt use the 4017's in the PLL circuit. I think I know why, it looks like the 4017's dont produce a 50% duty cycle. The only way to get 50% duty cycle is to run it straight off the PLL.
Thank you Tony, this helps.

Webmug

RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #132, on March 28th, 2012, 12:28 PM »Last edited on March 28th, 2012, 12:47 PM by Webmug
Quote from TonyWoodside on March 28th, 2012, 11:55 AM
@Webmug - The only way that I have gotten the cell to charge is when I was testing with the 8XA circuit which produced a pretty AM waveform are 2.2khz - 2.6khz. The cell would charge to over 800v pk-pk and I would get a little HHO. The diode in the circuit keeps the current in one direction instead of allowing it to swing. You usually get an AM signal just above the resonant frequency and in Stan's documents he says XL > XC, so this tells me that the circuit has to be totally inductive. As you know at resonance XL = XC, so its not resonance in a sense. Also from further testing I noticed that the 2.2khz - 2.6khz that I was getting could be done without the cell connected, meaning the resonance was taking place in the coils itself.
Yes, you are correct on the INDUCTIVE part Xl > Xc !
The chokes must overcome the capacitor.
But capacitor has effect on the chokes when connected, but not much I think.
So even unconnected VIC has it's own resonance frequency.
Choke NEG should be tuned to get the voltages equal but opposite due one side of the capacitor (dielectric) I think.

We PULSE the primary coil to get resonance at the secondary coil.
So we have AC at the secondary coil. Maximum voltage amplitude!
The secondary coil is on resonance and charges the chokes with AC very quickly with a number of "pulses" (=AC swings)

The chokes can handle a charge to a point when it doesn't charge anymore.
Resistance to current change!

Then when we GATE the PULSE (AC secondary) the energy stored in the chokes is discharged to the WFC. The discharge is in the form of UNIPOLAR pulse because its a critically damped RLC system and the chokes are opposite of each other and we getting double pulse because of bouncing off the DIODE. This critically damped choke has it's own resonance frequency, what do you think this is??? Hint secondary...
All the coils are on resonance at the same frequency. Here the PLL comes into play.

This UNIPOLAR pulse is charging the WFC on both sides at the same time. So amps are restricted at the same time on double pulses and it can't flow through the WFC!

So the signals we had seen before (opposite AC signals from the chokes) are just the start of tuning the chokes!

Stan called this VIC --> Voltage Intensifier circuit, very clever.

Note:
When PULSE is GATED the PLL is shutdown by the inhibit pin.

Br,
Webmug

Jeff Nading

RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #133, on March 28th, 2012, 01:05 PM »
Quote from Webmug on March 28th, 2012, 12:28 PM
Quote from TonyWoodside on March 28th, 2012, 11:55 AM
@Webmug - The only way that I have gotten the cell to charge is when I was testing with the 8XA circuit which produced a pretty AM waveform are 2.2khz - 2.6khz. The cell would charge to over 800v pk-pk and I would get a little HHO. The diode in the circuit keeps the current in one direction instead of allowing it to swing. You usually get an AM signal just above the resonant frequency and in Stan's documents he says XL > XC, so this tells me that the circuit has to be totally inductive. As you know at resonance XL = XC, so its not resonance in a sense. Also from further testing I noticed that the 2.2khz - 2.6khz that I was getting could be done without the cell connected, meaning the resonance was taking place in the coils itself.
Yes, you are correct on the INDUCTIVE part Xl > Xc !
The chokes must overcome the capacitor.
But capacitor has effect on the chokes when connected, but not much I think.
So even unconnected VIC has it's own resonance frequency.
Choke NEG should be tuned to get the voltages equal but opposite due one side of the capacitor (dielectric) I think.

We PULSE the primary coil to get resonance at the secondary coil.
So we have AC at the secondary coil. Maximum voltage amplitude!
The secondary coil is on resonance and charges the chokes with AC very quickly with a number of "pulses" (=AC swings)

The chokes can handle a charge to a point when it doesn't charge anymore.
Resistance to current change!

Then when we GATE the PULSE (AC secondary) the energy stored in the chokes is discharged to the WFC. The discharge is in the form of UNIPOLAR pulse because its a critically damped RLC system and the chokes are opposite of each other and we getting double pulse because of bouncing off the DIODE. This critically damped choke has it's own resonance frequency, what do you think this is??? Hint secondary...
All the coils are on resonance at the same frequency. Here the PLL comes into play.

This UNIPOLAR pulse is charging the WFC on both sides at the same time. So amps are restricted at the same time on double pulses and it can't flow through the WFC!

So the signals we had seen before (opposite AC signals from the chokes) are just the start of tuning the chokes!

Stan called this VIC --> Voltage Intensifier circuit, very clever.

Note:
When PULSE is GATED the PLL is shutdown by the inhibit pin.

Br,
Webmug
Wow Webmug, very cool explanation, now I think we are getting somewhere.

~Russ

RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #134, on March 29th, 2012, 12:35 AM »Last edited on March 29th, 2012, 12:35 AM by ~Russ/Rwg42985
so technical! lol grate job on this thread guys! i was planing on setting my circuit up with the iron cores i have but its been really busy today and i don't think I'm going to get to it today...

also, sharky do you have the PBC done in the new upload? i may go for a test run with the PCB i have... got that double sided PCB clad Board awaiting the go ahead!

grate! now we are getting some where! god speed and blessings to all! ~Russ

Sharky

RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #135, on March 29th, 2012, 02:56 AM »
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 29th, 2012, 12:35 AM
so technical! lol grate job on this thread guys! i was planing on setting my circuit up with the iron cores i have but its been really busy today and i don't think I'm going to get to it today...

also, sharky do you have the PBC done in the new upload? i may go for a test run with the PCB i have... got that double sided PCB clad Board awaiting the go ahead!

grate! now we are getting some where! god speed and blessings to all! ~Russ
Yes the pcb is there. Open pcbnew from kicad and just select print, select both layers and off you go ...

Webmug

RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #136, on March 29th, 2012, 07:44 AM »
Hi,

More to think about how the chokes are designed.

"The pulse (chokes UNIPOLAR) and charge status of the water/capacitor never pass through an arbitrary ground."
So he said it! Critically damped :exclamation:

If this is true then there is no choke coil oscillation! No frequency!
When we have no frequency we have UNIPOLAR PULSE.
But we can charge them up with a pump frequency !

If we want to design a choke to comply with these specs, we must have high resistance. What he said about making use of the dielectric properties of water, there is resistance between the plates a gap size. Lookup the variable plate WFC.

On the injectors WFC there is little resistance so he build large resistance choke coils to satisfy the design rule making UNIPOLAR pulse. I guess charging the choke requires higher pump frequency to get higher kV voltages.

Also the WFC capacitance is important because we have different water types in it.
This effects the capacitance. I think he designed the chokes for a few water types but not all. Tap water is higher in capacitance then Rain water, so
the RLC is adjusted for it.

For the square bobbin VIC transformer type he makes use of the fixed gap size (resistance) in the RLC circuit. Combine this with the choke coils R.

Example:
L=1.22H, C=15.7nF, we need R=17.5kOhm to get UNIPOLAR PULSE.

I need more feedback on this, let me know what you think :exclamation:

Br,
Webmug

Jeff Nading

RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #137, on March 29th, 2012, 08:02 AM »
Quote from Webmug on March 29th, 2012, 07:44 AM
Hi,

More to think about how the chokes are designed.

"The pulse (chokes UNIPOLAR) and charge status of the water/capacitor never pass through an arbitrary ground."
So he said it! Critically damped :exclamation:

If this is true then there is no choke coil oscillation! No frequency!
When we have no frequency we have UNIPOLAR PULSE.
But we can charge them up with a pump frequency !

If we want to design a choke to comply with these specs, we must have high resistance. What he said about making use of the dielectric properties of water, there is resistance between the plates a gap size. Lookup the variable plate WFC.

On the injectors WFC there is little resistance so he build large resistance choke coils to satisfy the design rule making UNIPOLAR pulse. I guess charging the choke requires higher pump frequency to get higher kV voltages.

Also the WFC capacitance is important because we have different water types in it.
This effects the capacitance. I think he designed the chokes for a few water types but not all. Tap water is higher in capacitance then Rain water, so
the RLC is adjusted for it.

For the square bobbin VIC transformer type he makes use of the fixed gap size (resistance) in the RLC circuit. Combine this with the choke coils R.

Example:
L=1.22H, C=15.7nF, we need R=17.5kOhm to get UNIPOLAR PULSE.

I need more feedback on this, let me know what you think :exclamation:

Br,
Webmug
Stan also said sea water could be used, this would let electrons flow freely, lower resistance than tap water.


Webmug

RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #138, on March 29th, 2012, 08:05 AM »
Quote from Jeff Nading on March 29th, 2012, 08:02 AM
Stan also said sea water could be used, this would let electrons flow freely, lower resistance than tap water.
Yes, as long as you restrict amps! But you need more choke resistance, I think.

Br,
Webmug


Jeff Nading

RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #139, on March 29th, 2012, 09:18 AM »
Quote from Webmug on March 29th, 2012, 08:05 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on March 29th, 2012, 08:02 AM
Stan also said sea water could be used, this would let electrons flow freely, lower resistance than tap water.
Yes, as long as you restrict amps! But you need more choke resistance, I think.

Br,
Webmug
Yes, could be the reason for the adjustable choke.


adys15

RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #140, on March 29th, 2012, 11:37 AM »
Sharky.can i use 74LS123 IC for gated pulse gen, i cant find 74LS122 .Btw in the gated pulse gen original pcb there are 7IC's not 5 like in the patents,and your skematics!!!

TonyWoodside

RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #141, on March 29th, 2012, 02:27 PM »Last edited on March 29th, 2012, 03:02 PM by TonyWoodside
Quote from adys15 on March 29th, 2012, 11:37 AM
Sharky.can i use 74LS123 IC for gated pulse gen, i cant find 74LS122 .Btw in the gated pulse gen original pcb there are 7IC's not 5 like in the patents,and your skematics!!!
This is a nice little circuit I came up with that outputs a adjustable triangle signal that can be inputted to the 4046. It has amplitude, frequency, and extended frequency capabilities.
Based on my calculations, the scan-time can be extended to as low as 0.0859 Hz (11.65 sec.). R3 = 5k, R4 = 100k, C1 = 10uF

adys15

RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #142, on March 30th, 2012, 02:16 AM »
what this got to do with what i said?The point is that the schematic in the patent is not complete,a litle analisys of patent,original gating ckt pictures and your skematic:patent skematic has 5ic's,your skematic has 3,original skematic has 7ic's,see att

haxar

RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #143, on March 30th, 2012, 03:49 AM »
Quote from adys15 on March 30th, 2012, 02:16 AM
what this got to do with what i said?The point is that the schematic in the patent is not complete,a litle analisys of patent,original gating ckt pictures and your skematic:patent skematic has 5ic's,your skematic has 3,original skematic has 7ic's,see att
Not every gate in the schematic is its own Integrated Circuit.

The 4001 IC has 4 NOR CMOS gates to utilize. Same for the 7408 IC which has 4 AND TTL gates.

TonyWoodside

RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #144, on March 30th, 2012, 10:15 AM »
on the Gate card the 7432 wasn't used, you can see where Stan cut the traces. The card also has a section of the Safety Control System on it.

Sharky

RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #145, on March 30th, 2012, 11:19 AM »
Quote from TonyWoodside on March 30th, 2012, 10:15 AM
on the Gate card the 7432 wasn't used, you can see where Stan cut the traces. The card also has a section of the Safety Control System on it.
Hi,
Tony is correct, you have to remember the vic was an engineering system and not all IC's and/or components are used or connected or as in this case it first was but for some reason he took it out by cutting the traces.

This why the complete trace along side the patent circuits is so important. About the 74122, it can not just be replaced by a 74123, both are retriggerable monostable multivibrators but their pin layout and workings is different. How come you can not get one of the 74ls122's? If i check mouser or farnell i find them at arround $0.50 to $1.00, almost all online electronics suppliers have them. Where are you situated?

Regards,
Sharky

adys15

RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #146, on March 30th, 2012, 11:49 AM »
Thanks verry much Tony and Sharky,I saw there are little scraches on the board,but was not sure,as for the 74122 i have to order the parts from another town,i search their sites and stuch with what they have to offer:( verry frustating(i am from Romania btw),and in this country this ''hobby'' is dyeing,so verry little shops and verry little parts, i hardly found parts for 8xa and that's why i was asking you guys what can i use instead of a SCR,i am moving verry hard.Thanks verry much again guys for all the info you are verry kind!

TonyWoodside

RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #147, on March 30th, 2012, 06:56 PM »Last edited on March 30th, 2012, 07:01 PM by TonyWoodside
Adys15,
If you want to use a 74123 in place of the 74122, you can connect it like I show in the attached drawing. If at all possible, use a 100k Pot for R1 and a 10uF variable capacitor for C1.

-Tony Woodside

http://www.GlobalKast.com
Haha...I forgot to add the image..lol...here it is...if you have any questions just let me know.

adys15

RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #148, on March 31st, 2012, 12:11 AM »
Quote from TonyWoodside on March 30th, 2012, 06:56 PM
Adys15,
If you want to use a 74123 in place of the 74122, you can connect it like I show in the attached drawing. If at all possible, use a 100k Pot for R1 and a 10uF variable capacitor for C1.

-Tony Woodside

http://www.GlobalKast.com

Haha...I forgot to add the image..lol...here it is...if you have any questions just let me know.
Thanks Tony,again,i will buy the 74123 and rest of parts and get working,how you are doing whith your experiments?
RE: Complete VIC schematic and pcb (work in progress)
« Reply #149, on March 31st, 2012, 01:32 AM »
Tony I have another Q:why do you use 7402(Quad 2-Input NOR Gates) because stan used 7404(SN7404 - These devices contain six independent inverters)or amplifier or something...,and another Q:in the patent skematic there 4  IC gates ,2 pairs of gates,1 pair is a single IC ?(,and if so the skematic contains a total of 3 ICs),or there is 2 separate IC's conected together,and if so the skematic contains a total of 5 ICs.Sorry for the dummy Q but all the skematics that i have from patent sharky,and you dont mach:d,waiting reply