Quote from Webmug on March 23rd, 2012, 04:10 AM

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 23rd, 2012, 01:10 AM

Quote from Webmug on March 22nd, 2012, 12:03 PM

It looks like the "voltage amplitude control" circuit is working as Stan described it in the tech brief.

"Variable voltage range (32a xxx 32n) from one(1) up to twelve (12) volts"

Voltage can be adjusted with external pulse frequency duty cycle control. 1% to 99% translated to analog voltage amplitude 1V to 12V.
Minimal voltage offset and gain adjustable going into the cell driver circuit that drives the VIC primary coil.

Br,
Webmug

Webmug, are you using what we have in the schematics posted? if not could you please post the schematic your using. i know your pulsing it from 1-99% so i believe your using the circuit in the patents.

thanks!

~Russ

Russ,

I have (re)build the circuit from the patent WO 92/07861 Fig 4 "Voltage amplitude control"

I pulse the input "J analog voltage" with 0 to + 5V on a fix pulse frequency.
Then duty cycle is adjusted 1% to 99% with my pulser on that pulse frequency to regulate the voltage amplitude going to TX1 (primary input)
 
Br,
Webmug

ok, that's what i thought, thanks!

also, are you building all the PLL circuitry also?

~Russ

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 24th, 2012, 01:19 AM

Quote from Webmug on March 23rd, 2012, 04:10 AM

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 23rd, 2012, 01:10 AM

Quote from Webmug on March 22nd, 2012, 12:03 PM

It looks like the "voltage amplitude control" circuit is working as Stan described it in the tech brief.

"Variable voltage range (32a xxx 32n) from one(1) up to twelve (12) volts"

Voltage can be adjusted with external pulse frequency duty cycle control. 1% to 99% translated to analog voltage amplitude 1V to 12V.
Minimal voltage offset and gain adjustable going into the cell driver circuit that drives the VIC primary coil.

Br,
Webmug

Webmug, are you using what we have in the schematics posted? if not could you please post the schematic your using. i know your pulsing it from 1-99% so i believe your using the circuit in the patents.

thanks!

~Russ

Russ,

I have (re)build the circuit from the patent WO 92/07861 Fig 4 "Voltage amplitude control"

I pulse the input "J analog voltage" with 0 to + 5V on a fix pulse frequency.
Then duty cycle is adjusted 1% to 99% with my pulser on that pulse frequency to regulate the voltage amplitude going to TX1 (primary input)
 
Br,
Webmug

ok, that's what i thought, thanks!

also, are you building all the PLL circuitry also?

~Russ

I have all the circuits needed for the resonance wfc!

Br,
Webmug

Quote from Webmug on March 24th, 2012, 07:32 AM

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 24th, 2012, 01:19 AM

Quote from Webmug on March 23rd, 2012, 04:10 AM

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 23rd, 2012, 01:10 AM

Quote from Webmug on March 22nd, 2012, 12:03 PM

It looks like the "voltage amplitude control" circuit is working as Stan described it in the tech brief.

"Variable voltage range (32a xxx 32n) from one(1) up to twelve (12) volts"

Voltage can be adjusted with external pulse frequency duty cycle control. 1% to 99% translated to analog voltage amplitude 1V to 12V.
Minimal voltage offset and gain adjustable going into the cell driver circuit that drives the VIC primary coil.

Br,
Webmug

Webmug, are you using what we have in the schematics posted? if not could you please post the schematic your using. i know your pulsing it from 1-99% so i believe your using the circuit in the patents.

thanks!

~Russ

Russ,

I have (re)build the circuit from the patent WO 92/07861 Fig 4 "Voltage amplitude control"

I pulse the input "J analog voltage" with 0 to + 5V on a fix pulse frequency.
Then duty cycle is adjusted 1% to 99% with my pulser on that pulse frequency to regulate the voltage amplitude going to TX1 (primary input)
 
Br,
Webmug

ok, that's what i thought, thanks!

also, are you building all the PLL circuitry also?

~Russ

I have all the circuits needed for the resonance wfc!

Br,
Webmug

ok, so your still working on putting all together? just asking as it would be good to have even more testing and trouble shooting... as i know you are. are you going off the schematics sharky/me are working on or re-tracing Stan's circuits?

thanks Webmug!

~Russ

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 24th, 2012, 08:18 PM

Quote from Webmug on March 24th, 2012, 07:32 AM

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 24th, 2012, 01:19 AM

Quote from Webmug on March 23rd, 2012, 04:10 AM

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 23rd, 2012, 01:10 AM

Webmug, are you using what we have in the schematics posted? if not could you please post the schematic your using. i know your pulsing it from 1-99% so i believe your using the circuit in the patents.

thanks!

~Russ

Russ,

I have (re)build the circuit from the patent WO 92/07861 Fig 4 "Voltage amplitude control"

I pulse the input "J analog voltage" with 0 to + 5V on a fix pulse frequency.
Then duty cycle is adjusted 1% to 99% with my pulser on that pulse frequency to regulate the voltage amplitude going to TX1 (primary input)
 
Br,
Webmug

ok, that's what i thought, thanks!

also, are you building all the PLL circuitry also?

~Russ

I have all the circuits needed for the resonance wfc!

Br,
Webmug

ok, so your still working on putting all together? just asking as it would be good to have even more testing and trouble shooting... as i know you are. are you going off the schematics sharky/me are working on or re-tracing Stan's circuits?

thanks Webmug!

~Russ

My intentions are to follow the circuits from Stan, as close as possible, with the information provided by Dynodon.

As you know the circuit specs are matched to the VIC transformer and WFC, so it is difficult to see all the circuits working together with the correct parameters.

:rolleyes: The VIC transformer is the most difficult part!

Br,
Webmug

Quote from Webmug on March 25th, 2012, 01:55 PM

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 24th, 2012, 08:18 PM

Quote from Webmug on March 24th, 2012, 07:32 AM

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 24th, 2012, 01:19 AM

Quote from Webmug on March 23rd, 2012, 04:10 AM

Russ,

I have (re)build the circuit from the patent WO 92/07861 Fig 4 "Voltage amplitude control"

I pulse the input "J analog voltage" with 0 to + 5V on a fix pulse frequency.
Then duty cycle is adjusted 1% to 99% with my pulser on that pulse frequency to regulate the voltage amplitude going to TX1 (primary input)
 
Br,
Webmug

ok, that's what i thought, thanks!

also, are you building all the PLL circuitry also?

~Russ

I have all the circuits needed for the resonance wfc!

Br,
Webmug

ok, so your still working on putting all together? just asking as it would be good to have even more testing and trouble shooting... as i know you are. are you going off the schematics sharky/me are working on or re-tracing Stan's circuits?

thanks Webmug!

~Russ

My intentions are to follow the circuits from Stan, as close as possible, with the information provided by Dynodon.

As you know the circuit specs are matched to the VIC transformer and WFC, so it is difficult to see all the circuits working together with the correct parameters.

:rolleyes: The VIC transformer is the most difficult part!

Br,
Webmug

ok, thats what i thought, and you will also be posting all schematic once your happy with the schematic? or are you posting a step by step prosses as you get each part done?

as you know me ans sharky are doing the same but it would be good to all be on the same page of the testing/building to varafy each part... and also, once we have the cores this will make it better. still working out the details over at the VIC thread.

thanks Webmug, Best!!

~Russ

As Russ and i had trouble getting the 4046 to lock in i decided to go a step back to the basics. How does the 4046 lock on and what influence do the components have on its behaviour? I build a very simple circuit to show and test that (got my new GW-INSTEK GDS-1102A, 100MHz digital scope in, ... indeed a very nice piece of equipment for that price (about 650 euros). The signal that normally comes from the feedback coil is now generated by a 555 timer. Besides the 4046 there is also the lock-indicator circuit. See the youtube video to see its workings:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5ZbPe4QMxE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Next step is to replace the scan and hold network by the Meyer Resonant Scanning circuit and have it behave the same. Then the next step will be replacing the 555 pulse signal by the real feedback signal from the Pulse Indicator circuit. The last step will be reconnecting the gating signal.

Quote from Sharky on March 26th, 2012, 05:07 AM

As Russ and i had trouble getting the 4046 to lock in i decided to go a step back to the basics. How does the 4046 lock on and what influence do the components have on its behaviour? I build a very simple circuit to show and test that (got my new GW-INSTEK GDS-1102A, 100MHz digital scope in, ... indeed a very nice piece of equipment for that price (about 650 euros). The signal that normally comes from the feedback coil is now generated by a 555 timer. Besides the 4046 there is also the lock-indicator circuit. See the youtube video to see its workings:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5ZbPe4QMxE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Next step is to replace the scan and hold network by the Meyer Resonant Scanning circuit and have it behave the same. Then the next step will be replacing the 555 pulse signal by the real feedback signal from the Pulse Indicator circuit. The last step will be reconnecting the gating signal.

Nice!!! I can see how mine keeps going crazy! Lol! The other circuit that is... Strange thing is that the feed back signal is allways pulsing the circuit... So one would think there would only be a lockin when the pulses got high. As if it was a t resonance. Any way, good work!!! Thanks for the video and information! We got to learn the system from the ground up!

As far as the gating, it looked as if the second gating chip was for the duty cycle of the frequncy gen??? I'm I looking at this correctly?
 
Also, don't know what hapen but I fixed the video link. It was busted... ~Russ

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 26th, 2012, 06:56 AM

As far as the gating, it looked as if the second gating chip was for the duty cycle of the frequncy gen??? I'm I looking at this correctly?

If you mean the 74122  then you are right that its purpose is to adjust the duty cycle of the gating frequency.

Quote from Sharky on March 26th, 2012, 07:38 AM

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 26th, 2012, 06:56 AM

As far as the gating, it looked as if the second gating chip was for the duty cycle of the frequncy gen??? I'm I looking at this correctly?

If you mean the 74122  then you are right that its purpose is to adjust the duty cycle of the gating frequency.

OK, then those seem to work good now that we have the right cap in place! :)

 ~Russ

Also. I think i want to redue the adjustable power schmatic. It will get more complacated but that's ok. I don't like the way it is now.

Webmug,

Can you post your schmatic of what you have done with this part of the schmatic.

I know your using a sig gen to get the duty cycle but we will use a 555 timer or somthing in the final set...

Thanks all! ~Russ

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 26th, 2012, 08:27 AM

Also. I think i want to redue the adjustable power schmatic. It will get more complacated but that's ok. I don't like the way it is now.

Webmug,

Can you post your schmatic of what you have done with this part of the schmatic.

I know your using a sig gen to get the duty cycle but we will use a 555 timer or somthing in the final set...

Thanks all! ~Russ

Yes, you can do this also. Takes a couple of more components. :) It works in combination with the "cell driver circuit".

The input J should have a adjustable duty cycle DU pulse 0 to 5V and frequency about 1kHz. This 1 to 99% DU controls the voltage amplitude.
You can do this with a 555 timer instead of a signal generator.

Offset is the min. voltage amplitude on the primary coil and gain the time it takes to go to max voltage amplitude, when you set it to 1%

This voltage amplitude control has a useful function, because it adjust the voltage "analog" and not in increment steps what disturbs the voltage.

I have problems keeping the DU signal 50% from the "cell driver circuit" when the PLL adjust frequency (scanner). 31 to 42% This is very important because this 50% gives us perfect resonance and is picked-up at the pickup- coil where the PLL locks-on.

I tested the pickup circuit with a AC signal from my signal generator going into the pickup circuit. I have pulse from the opamp in phase with the AC voltage, but it has a lot of noise in/on it. The lock-on circuit response on this is not good!:huh:

In my video you can see the scanner active (yellow) and the pickup pulse(blue) from the AC voltage from signal generator at 2kHz.

I want the PLL to lock-on the AC voltage. (pickup coil simulation)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRYf8nZ2Qt8

Br,
Webmug

Quote from Webmug on March 26th, 2012, 10:12 AM

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 26th, 2012, 08:27 AM

Also. I think i want to redue the adjustable power schmatic. It will get more complacated but that's ok. I don't like the way it is now.

Webmug,

Can you post your schmatic of what you have done with this part of the schmatic.

I know your using a sig gen to get the duty cycle but we will use a 555 timer or somthing in the final set...

Thanks all! ~Russ

Yes, you can do this also. Takes a couple of more components. :) It works in combination with the "cell driver circuit".

The input J should have a adjustable duty cycle DU pulse 0 to 5V and frequency about 1kHz. This 1 to 99% DU controls the voltage amplitude.
You can do this with a 555 timer instead of a signal generator.

Offset is the min. voltage amplitude on the primary coil and gain the time it takes to go to max voltage amplitude, when you set it to 1%

This voltage amplitude control has a useful function, because it adjust the voltage "analog" and not in increment steps what disturbs the voltage.

I have problems keeping the DU signal 50% from the "cell driver circuit" when the PLL adjust frequency (scanner). 31 to 42% This is very important because this 50% gives us perfect resonance and is picked-up at the pickup- coil where the PLL locks-on.

I tested the pickup circuit with a AC signal from my signal generator going into the pickup circuit. I have pulse from the opamp in phase with the AC voltage, but it has a lot of noise in/on it. The lock-on circuit response on this is not good!:huh:

In my video you can see the scanner active (yellow) and the pickup pulse(blue) from the AC voltage from signal generator at 2kHz.

I want the PLL to lock-on the AC voltage. (pickup coil simulation)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRYf8nZ2Qt8

Br,
Webmug

Good work, the feed back signail is a square wave. Not a sign wave, so try the square wave. Seems everyone has that sig gen! Lol I find that funny! It's a good one! But my Chanel one is out! Hope the warrantee is good...

Thanks
~Russ    

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 26th, 2012, 11:28 AM

Good work, the feed back signail is a square wave. Not a sign wave, so try the square wave. Seems everyone has that sig gen! Lol I find that funny! It's a good one! But my Chanel one is out! Hope the warrantee is good...

Thanks
~Russ

What happens on resonance and what does the signal look like at the secondary coil when you pulse it with 50% square wave on the primary?

You get AC voltage. The pickup coil sees this and this is what you want. Keep it on resonance.
The pickup circuit gets AC and translate it to DC pickup pulse and we measure the phase between coil driver pulse, the PLL should correct. Then we have resonance.

The pulse 50% DU generates AC harmonics on the secondary coil when out of resonance so this bandwidth is not so wide windowed from the resonance frequency. The scanner go up en down in frequency if out of resonance.

That what I understand????

See http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=3818#pid3818 for charging choke coil with AC.

Br,
Webmug

Added circuit from the VIC PCB reversed engineered by Tony.
This is the PCB circuit with modifications on the patent circuits.

The "voltage amplitude control" is not part of Tony's PCB.

Sharky, did you get the circuit information from the patents or from the estate photos or both?

Hope this helps!

Br,
Webmug

Quote from Webmug on March 27th, 2012, 05:13 AM

Added circuit from the VIC PCB reversed engineered by Tony.
This is the PCB circuit with modifications on the patent circuits.

The "voltage amplitude control" is not part of Tony's PCB.

Sharky, did you get the circuit information from the patents or from the estate photos or both?

Hope this helps!

Br,
Webmug

If you open the KiCad project you will find a schematic with the name: Voltage Amplitude Control Original.sch

That contains the schematic as it was in Meyers patents, the digital to analog is missing though, ... that is probably why it did not work :). To work arround it at that moment i changed it to a much simplier version to be able to continue, when the other work is done i will retry the original amplitude control.

All the information comes from the patents, the images and the fine trace done by Haxar on the original vic card.

Quote from Sharky on March 27th, 2012, 08:48 AM

Quote from Webmug on March 27th, 2012, 05:13 AM

Added circuit from the VIC PCB reversed engineered by Tony.
This is the PCB circuit with modifications on the patent circuits.

The "voltage amplitude control" is not part of Tony's PCB.

Sharky, did you get the circuit information from the patents or from the estate photos or both?

Hope this helps!

Br,
Webmug

If you open the KiCad project you will find a schematic with the name: Voltage Amplitude Control Original.sch

That contains the schematic as it was in Meyers patents, the digital to analog is missing though, ... that is probably why it did not work :). To work arround it at that moment i changed it to a much simplier version to be able to continue, when the other work is done i will retry the original amplitude control.

All the information comes from the patents, the images and the fine trace done by Haxar on the original vic card.

Yes, I found it in the files, nice!

At the input J we need a Variable duty cycle (probably you already know this)
Frequency didn't do much, can be 1kHz.

Stan said the Voltage Amplitude Control should use it's own power supply, not the same as the driver etc. !
p3-5 WFC 422 DA
...electrically isolated (crossover voltage from separated power supplies)...

Br,
Webmug

Hi,
if it helps, I have attached the schematic from Tony Woodside that is in the Eagle Files he released yesterday.

Quote from wfchobby on March 27th, 2012, 07:40 PM

Hi,
if it helps, I have attached the schematic from Tony Woodside that is in the Eagle Files he released yesterday.

ah, good, thanks! i was hoping some one would do this!!

lets take what tony has done in to concentration but also look over everything as we don't want to copy tony, but more or less use it as a reference,

 i want to say thanks to tony for all his hard work and doing it in the open like the rest of us!! i now it took tony a lot of hard work and research for a lot longer than we all have been messing with this circuit.   Blessings tony and thank you for going for the Full Open source way as i know the things that that can involve... :) god bless you man! ~Russ

Thanks Russ! I should have released all this info sooner, but like you said in your video today, sometimes we do stuff that we later regret. I had planned on releasing this months ago but I didn't want my guy Spencer to be mad at me about it cuz we worked on a prototype version of this together March of last year. Before we purchased the photo's from Don back last year, we had already figured out all the IC's used, all we needed were the correct resistor & capacitor values in the circuit. I will probably continue to sell the bare VIC Circuit boards with no components on my site for around $50 each, which that isn't a bad price at all.

Well if theres anything I can help ya with just let me know on here or drop me an email at tonywoodside@gmail.com

Quote from Webmug on March 27th, 2012, 09:19 AM

Yes, I found it in the files, nice!

At the input J we need a Variable duty cycle (probably you already know this)
Frequency didn't do much, can be 1kHz.

Stan said the Voltage Amplitude Control should use it's own power supply, not the same as the driver etc. !
p3-5 WFC 422 DA
...electrically isolated (crossover voltage from separated power supplies)...

Br,
Webmug

Yes but i do not think he actually means a different physical supply, remember we are working on a system to be put in a car here working of the car battery. The traced connections indicate that using it's own power supply here means that the Voltage Amplitude Control is connected directly to the 12V car battery and driving the primairy coil. The rest of the circuits are connected to the 10V voltage regulator and not influenced by the battery power fluctuations.

Something else to be carefull with is power fluctuations between components, on the original vic there are 33nF capacitors between power and ground at all IC's, why? Well the 4046 and 555 and 318 and 741 all depend with there output signal on the power supplied to it. If for example the 4046 is fed with 15V for a moment instead of 10V it will output a 15V pulse instead of a 10V pulse. That may very well be the spikes you had in your signal. So to work with clean signals all IC's need to be decoupled as close as possible to the IC itself with a 33nF capacitor. It is not in the current uploaded project version yet but i will upload the latest version as soon as possible.

Quote from Sharky on March 27th, 2012, 11:46 PM

Quote from Webmug on March 27th, 2012, 09:19 AM

Yes, I found it in the files, nice!

At the input J we need a Variable duty cycle (probably you already know this)
Frequency didn't do much, can be 1kHz.

Stan said the Voltage Amplitude Control should use it's own power supply, not the same as the driver etc. !
p3-5 WFC 422 DA
...electrically isolated (crossover voltage from separated power supplies)...

Br,
Webmug

Yes but i do not think he actually means a different physical supply, remember we are working on a system to be put in a car here working of the car battery. The traced connections indicate that using it's own power supply here means that the Voltage Amplitude Control is connected directly to the 12V car battery and driving the primairy coil. The rest of the circuits are connected to the 10V voltage regulator and not influenced by the battery power fluctuations.

Something else to be carefull with is power fluctuations between components, on the original vic there are 33nF capacitors between power and ground at all IC's, why? Well the 4046 and 555 and 318 and 741 all depend with there output signal on the power supplied to it. If for example the 4046 is fed with 15V for a moment instead of 10V it will output a 15V pulse instead of a 10V pulse. That may very well be the spikes you had in your signal. So to work with clean signals all IC's need to be decoupled as close as possible to the IC itself with a 33nF capacitor. It is not in the current uploaded project version yet but i will upload the latest version as soon as possible.

Here's a simple voltage control circuit that I came up with instead of using the one Stan has in his VIC circuit. The reason I didn't include Stan voltage control in my circuit was because it really wasnt needed for testing. But this circuit works just fine for me. It uses a 1k and 10k resistor, a 50K POT, and a 2N3055 transistor.

Quote from TonyWoodside on March 28th, 2012, 12:15 AM

Quote from Sharky on March 27th, 2012, 11:46 PM

Quote from Webmug on March 27th, 2012, 09:19 AM

Yes, I found it in the files, nice!

At the input J we need a Variable duty cycle (probably you already know this)
Frequency didn't do much, can be 1kHz.

Stan said the Voltage Amplitude Control should use it's own power supply, not the same as the driver etc. !
p3-5 WFC 422 DA
...electrically isolated (crossover voltage from separated power supplies)...

Br,
Webmug

Yes but i do not think he actually means a different physical supply, remember we are working on a system to be put in a car here working of the car battery. The traced connections indicate that using it's own power supply here means that the Voltage Amplitude Control is connected directly to the 12V car battery and driving the primairy coil. The rest of the circuits are connected to the 10V voltage regulator and not influenced by the battery power fluctuations.

Something else to be carefull with is power fluctuations between components, on the original vic there are 33nF capacitors between power and ground at all IC's, why? Well the 4046 and 555 and 318 and 741 all depend with there output signal on the power supplied to it. If for example the 4046 is fed with 15V for a moment instead of 10V it will output a 15V pulse instead of a 10V pulse. That may very well be the spikes you had in your signal. So to work with clean signals all IC's need to be decoupled as close as possible to the IC itself with a 33nF capacitor. It is not in the current uploaded project version yet but i will upload the latest version as soon as possible.

Here's a simple voltage control circuit that I came up with instead of using the one Stan has in his VIC circuit. The reason I didn't include Stan voltage control in my circuit was because it really wasnt needed for testing. But this circuit works just fine for me. It uses a 1k and 10k resistor, a 50K POT, and a 2N3055 transistor.

Hi Tony,

Do you have an voltage amplitude OFFSET of 1V with this circuit?
On top of this offset the pulse/gate signal?
Voltage Amplitude Control

Br,
Webmug

Also Tony, what is meant by an AM waveform just above resonant frequency, could you explain, thanks.

Just uploaded the last version of the project, made some small changes, now it is locking in up to 5.2KHz, beyond that there is no lock but should not be a problem as resonance is probably a lot lower. I hope to have a first test pcb in by the end of next week. If that tests out allright we can make the V1.0 design final.

Quote from Sharky on March 28th, 2012, 06:55 AM

Just uploaded the last version of the project, made some small changes, now it is locking in up to 5.2KHz, beyond that there is no lock but should not be a problem as resonance is probably a lot lower. I hope to have a first test pcb in by the end of next week. If that tests out allright we can make the V1.0 design final.

Where did you upload it to Sharky?