Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board

haxar

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #300, on January 15th, 2017, 01:06 AM »Last edited on January 15th, 2017, 01:08 AM
Quote from Matt Watts on January 15th, 2017, 12:18 AM
Notice Stan has something there too, but placed just before the TIP120.  My guess this resistor was bundled in the nest of wires in the VIC cage.  I haven't seen any reference to what its value should be and if I was going to hide a really important tuning variable, that's where I'd hide it.
This is a pull-down resistor. The TIP120 does this internally. Thus, omitted from the card.


Webmug

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #302, on January 15th, 2017, 08:35 AM »
Quote from andy on January 15th, 2017, 08:08 AM
Matt
Stan was said many times:
We are working from 0 to 10 kHz range.
I thing there is no need to go beyond 10 kHz.
Quote from Webmug on December 23rd, 2016, 02:41 PM
My findings using this driver is that it only worked pulsing below 10khz. If you go higher 50%du is no longer maintained due transistor bias etc. Way to complex! So designing the cell and coils resonance freq. must be below 10khz. Unfortunately my setup uses higher frequency and i switched to mosfet instead.
~webmug

Webmug

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #303, on January 15th, 2017, 08:53 AM »
Quote from Matt Watts on January 11th, 2017, 03:39 PM
It seems to.  At gate you can see the PLL start to hunt a little, but it comes right back in unless you aggressively gate, then the PLL looses its mind.

Starts at about 1kHz and goes up beyond 50kHz.  I don't know if that is enough range or not, but this particular chip handles a much wider bandwidth than the CD4046B.

That's still a bit of an open-ended discussion as to what Stan was trying to accomplish.  I left them out on this board, but may try to shoehorn them back in with a jumper selection.  I personally didn't like the idea of slamming output signals together.  If this signal needs to be filtered and fed back in, it should IMHO go through some sort of dedicated mixer.
So the PLL function was not tested on a LC tank circuit? If the du (duty-cycle) of 50% is not there how can you lock-in?
I tested the PLL (with the circuit Stan used and a mosfet circuit) and could not get it to lock after gating the pulses. Gunther had the same problem getting the PLL locking-in after gating. Solution is inserting a lower pulse signal in the gate time so the PLL sees the resonance.
I noticed Brad has the same signal I used in his YT video. https://youtu.be/aCV98ajnTA0?t=73

What Stan was trying to accomplish is getting the pulse signal in the primary at 50% du , because else you can't get it into pure resonance. I think the cap and resistor was there to get the 50% du feedback syncing the signals in the PLL from the primary. Kinda strange...

@Brad,
How did you generate those signals? :)

~webmug

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #304, on January 15th, 2017, 10:15 AM »Last edited on January 15th, 2017, 10:27 AM
Quote from ~Russ on January 15th, 2017, 12:55 AM
so now its the 2n222... yours is an A version... ill look at mine, but i think its not the A version...
Doesn't matter Russ.  Scope through the driver circuit and you will see the 50% duty cycle is maintained all the way through until you get to the base of the TIP120--that's where you'll see duty cycle gets altered.
Quote from haxar on January 15th, 2017, 01:06 AM
This is a pull-down resistor. The TIP120 does this internally. Thus, omitted from the card.
Yeap.  And if 16kHz is high enough for the VIC & WFC, you're probably good to go.

What we do know is if different manufacturers of the TIP120 used different internal resistors.  The ST version I have has 7k + 70 internal.  The OnSemi uses 8k + 120.  So there is the difference in pull-down values and why Stan probably had that in his patent--because it depends on where you source your components.
Quote from Webmug on January 15th, 2017, 08:53 AM
So the PLL function was not tested on a LC tank circuit? If the du (duty-cycle) of 50% is not there how can you lock-in?
It locks using mode II which is only interested in the phase angle.  It doesn't care about the pulse width at all.

I can drive the PLL circuit by way of the feedback from my signal generator and it will track whatever I do, with any duty cycle I send it.  So with normal feedback from the VIC, if there is any resonance there, the PLL will go straight to it.  The only catch is the driver has to let through the frequency the VCO is generating and at the moment that frequency is capped by the driver, not the VCO/PLL.


Webmug

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #305, on January 15th, 2017, 10:21 AM »Last edited on January 15th, 2017, 10:24 AM
Quote from Matt Watts on January 15th, 2017, 10:15 AM
Doesn't matter Russ.  Scope through the driver circuit and you will see the 50% duty cycle is maintained all the way through until you get to the base of the TIP120--that's where you'll see duty cycle gets altered.



Yeap.  And if 16kHz is high enough for the VIC & WFC, you're probably good to go.

What we do know is if different manufacturers of the TIP120 used different internal resistors.  The ST version I have has 7k + 70k internal.  The OnSemi uses 8k + 120k.  So there is the difference in pull-down values and why Stan probably had that in his patent--because it depends on where you source your components.



It locks using mode II which is only interested in the phase angle.  It doesn't care about the pulse width at all.

I can drive the PLL circuit by way of the feedback from my signal generator and it will track whatever I do, with any duty cycle I send it.  So with normal feedback from the VIC, if there is any resonance there, the PLL will go straight to it.  The only catch is the driver has to let through the frequency the VCO is generating.
This is with gate where there are no pulses present?  :)
120ohm instead of 120kohm
http://sensitiveresearch.com/elec/DoNotTIP/index.html




~Russ

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #309, on January 15th, 2017, 12:20 PM »
Quote from Matt Watts on January 15th, 2017, 10:15 AM
Doesn't matter Russ.  Scope through the driver circuit and you will see the 50% duty cycle is maintained all the way through until you get to the base of the TIP120--that's where you'll see duty cycle gets altered.
Cool I'll test this with my 4 channial scope. Also I have a 2 types of tip120. I'll test them both.

Good find Matt. ~Russ

~Russ

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #310, on January 15th, 2017, 09:42 PM »
ok, i have an ST version its got a R1 7K +R2 .07K of 7.07K its top cut off is 35ish khz
 i have an fairchild version its got a R1 8K +R2 .12K of 8.120K its top cut off is 22ish khz

im going to use the ST version.

also my 2n222 are not the A version

and i had my L2 wired backwards so my last tests were nall....

~Russ




haxar

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #312, on January 15th, 2017, 09:54 PM »Last edited on January 15th, 2017, 09:58 PM
If Stan used a TIP120 in this circuit, that would mean the total bandwidth of the VIC circuit would be below the highest frequency cutoff of the TIP120 used.

35kHz or 22kHz cutoff as Russ mentioned.

50% duty cycle must be persistent throughout all frequencies. The PLL does this cleanly.

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #313, on January 15th, 2017, 10:25 PM »
Quote from haxar on January 15th, 2017, 09:54 PM
50% duty cycle must be persistent throughout all frequencies. The PLL does this cleanly.
I wouldn't be so quick to state that.  The rolloff of the duty cycle going to 100% allows for an intersection between frequency that is linear and gate off time that is not.  This forces a point where the two plots must cross within a fairly small range of frequencies.

The PLL/VCO always outputs 50% duty cycle, the VIC driver does not.  This is no accident.


Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #315, on January 15th, 2017, 10:36 PM »Last edited on January 15th, 2017, 10:50 PM
Quote from ~Russ on January 15th, 2017, 09:43 PM
oh and yes its just the tip120 that messes up the PW. agreed matt
Yeap.  The smaller the resistance the higher the cutoff frequency.

We can be pretty certain this creates a sweet spot in the frequency range.  What we need to find out now is what part of the VIC the frequency is the dominant factor and what part of the VIC is the off-time the dominant factor.  If I had to make a guess, I would say it has to do with polarization via the phase angles, but that's just a guess at this point.  I say that because duty cycle is a direct proportion of the full cycle time which is indicative of phase angle.  And phase angle indicates where you have plus versus minus in the sine wave.

With two chokes in the VIC, if one could always push positive charge and the other always push negative charge at a specific frequency, then you have the recipe for charging a capacitor.  Make L2 slightly out-of-phase from L1 and use duty cycle to do what you want from each of them?   You got it man, bring on the HHO.

haxar

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #316, on January 15th, 2017, 10:42 PM »Last edited on January 15th, 2017, 10:46 PM
Just to note, sound cards in the 1980s didn't exist in Stan's era. Maybe MIDI. The VIC could be powered by a simple sound card. It's bandwidth is up to 24kHz, which is the limit of the TIP120.
Quote from Matt Watts on January 15th, 2017, 10:36 PM
Yeap.  The smaller the resistance the higher the cutoff frequency.
If Stan says to wind more wire on the secondary, the bandwidth to achieve resonance will be lower.

HMS-776

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #317, on January 15th, 2017, 10:42 PM »
Webmug,

I use a dual channel frequency gen....First I put the Hf and Gate through a 4011 and 4013 ic to sync the two then combine them two using a few 2n2222's which drive the base of a TIP120.

It's all on a breadboard right now so I don't have a schematic yet....I'm waiting on a smaller value pot because the TIP120 is not switching the lower amplitude pulses. Still refining things a bit, but so far I get clean square waves to the TIP120 base unless I take the voltage too high.

~Russ

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #318, on January 16th, 2017, 10:01 AM »Last edited on January 16th, 2017, 10:04 AM
also please note that my other testing the L2 was wrong.

it now connected per Don's sketch.

and i do get out of phasing as expected from the chokes...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrmpUNoATDg

but to be honest the VIC did not react as well as i hoped lol

right at about 15Khz was both chokes resonant, but less voltage than before.
i also had the tape in the cores still.

Dry cells as well

~Russ

Webmug

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #319, on January 16th, 2017, 10:52 AM »
Quote from ~Russ on January 16th, 2017, 10:01 AM
right at about 15Khz was both chokes resonant, but less voltage than before.
i also had the tape in the cores still.
~Russ
Question do I understand this correctly: "you also used tape to create air-gap between the MN67 core halves of the 5 coil VIC?" why, it already has a low k factor flat core?

Looking at your measurements of that VIC has too high turn counts.

Your measured Cd (self-capacitance) isn't right, only when you find the SRF (self resonant frequency) of the coil, you can calculate the Cd. Now it is based on the test frequency of the LCR meter. Cd @SRF should be in the 100pF .. 106pF range...hmm?? your series cells..hmm??

But by now you probably know this...

~webmug

~Russ

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #320, on January 16th, 2017, 11:00 AM »
webmug " But by now you probably know this..."

do me a favor, assume i know nothing. this is good :)

keep poking at this with me... we need all the help we can get!

yes, I'm using a small piece of tape, i did this because when you close the gap the inductance go way past what we want in my opinion. ( to large)
i need to find a smaller shim tho. the tape is to much and there to (to small)

indeed i wrapped a lot more wire than i needed because the resistance is closer to what Stan used, but planed on unwraping a lot, i wanted to have the ability to take some off :)

with that said. my next step is to get a smaller shim. more inductance, lower the F ???

keep thinking webmug, ill keep testing some stuff!!!!

~Russ 

HMS-776

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #321, on January 16th, 2017, 11:40 AM »
Russ, it's interesting that your seeing peaks at 15kHz now...Was the only change you made reversing the L2 choke?

If Stan is telling the truth all coils should be aiding. So if  you short the chokes on one end then measure the inductance you should get over 2H (depending on k factor). Mine measure around 4H.

~Russ

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #322, on January 16th, 2017, 11:44 AM »Last edited on January 16th, 2017, 11:47 AM
thats it, the only thing i did was change the leads on the L2 coil.

there was other points of interest but that was the best point where Both L1 and L2 were giving off the max peak...

"If Stan is telling the truth all coils should be aiding."
well according to what don had on his sketch...

~Russ


Webmug

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #324, on January 16th, 2017, 11:58 AM »
Quote from HMS-776 on January 16th, 2017, 11:40 AM
Russ, it's interesting that your seeing peaks at 15kHz now...Was the only change you made reversing the L2 choke?

If Stan is telling the truth all coils should be aiding. So if  you short the chokes on one end then measure the inductance you should get over 2H (depending on k factor). Mine measure around 4H.
Are you sure about aiding? It is not aiding but its opposing according to Dynodon sketches.
I tried all different coil positions, this series opposing gets me opposite but equal voltages only. I won't argue with you.
This is just my opinion :)

~webmug