Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board

HMS-776

Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« on December 9th, 2016, 05:56 AM »Last edited on December 21st, 2016, 01:34 PM by ~Russ
~Rues Edit Here:
This is a branch of this thread:

http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2785

moved here for more discussion and less mess in that thread.

original post:


Has anyone here got Stan's vic drive circuit to work?

I breadboarded it last night, double and triple checked everything and it was not working right....

I had an input signal that was 10V high unipolar pulses with a positive 10V gate just like the diagram shows. I used two 2N3906's, one 2N2222 and a TIP120.

Output across the coil was like a continuous pulse with small dips between pulses???





gpssonar

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #1, on December 9th, 2016, 09:00 AM »Last edited on December 11th, 2016, 06:15 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on December 9th, 2016, 05:56 AM
Has anyone here got Stan's vic drive circuit to work?

I breadboarded it last night, double and triple checked everything and it was not working right....

I had an input signal that was 10V high unipolar pulses with a positive 10V gate just like the diagram shows. I used two 2N3906's, one 2N2222 and a TIP120.

Output across the coil was like a continuous pulse with small dips between pulses???
It all works on the VIC card. Adam made a video of it all working that I seen.
Did you build the voltage amplitude control too?
Did you use an inverted gated input signal to the cell driver as shown?

HMS-776

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #2, on December 9th, 2016, 01:20 PM »
Glad it went well Ronnie.

I don't have the voltage amplitude control circuit but have 2 adjustable power supplies.

I did put an inverted signal to the driver circuit.

I'll play around with it more this weekend.

Once again....Does anyone know the reason for the 2N3906'S and 2222. I know the Q8 2N3906 drives the Tip120 base but what is the reason for the others?

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #3, on December 9th, 2016, 01:30 PM »
Quote from HMS-776 on December 9th, 2016, 01:20 PM
Once again....Does anyone know the reason for the 2N3906'S and 2222. I know the Q8 2N3906 drives the Tip120 base but what is the reason for the others?
Pretty sure those three transistors setup a fixed DC bias that keeps the TIP120 partially turned on at all times.  This in turn keeps the primary slightly energized or should I say, provides leakage current.

Russ and I have been trying to figure out how this leakage current makes it way over to the secondary side, hence all the talk about flux walking.

HMS-776

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #4, on December 9th, 2016, 02:00 PM »
Quote from Matt Watts on December 9th, 2016, 01:30 PM
Pretty sure those three transistors setup a fixed DC bias that keeps the TIP120 partially turned on at all times.  This in turn keeps the primary slightly energized or should I say, provides leakage current.

Russ and I have been trying to figure out how this leakage current makes it way over to the secondary side, hence all the talk about flux walking.
That's what I don't quite understand. My simulation of the drive circuit in multisim does not give me a dc bias. I wonder if it's further back in the circuit or my sim is incorrect?

Looking at Ronnie's waveforms it's hard to tell if there is a bias there...Ronnie, on your scope shots where are you measuring the yellow trace? Is it across the primary coil?

If Stan wanted a dc bias he could have just added a resistor from a positive voltage source to the base of the tip120.
This is where I get confused because I've never seen anything in Stan's literature about a dc bias?

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #5, on December 9th, 2016, 02:03 PM »
Putting this out there because for some silly reason I never noticed it before.
Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #6, on December 9th, 2016, 02:25 PM »Last edited on December 9th, 2016, 02:37 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on December 9th, 2016, 02:00 PM
This is where I get confused because I've never seen anything in Stan's literature about a dc bias?
Figure 4 (high-side) of the patent sure shows the gain and offset components going to the primary coil.  Figure 5 (low-side) also connects to the primary coil on the opposite side.  So I think you need both circuits, best I can tell.  Doesn't look to me like either side of the primary coil actually connects to ground or positive power.  The high-side can be hard switched to the plus battery, but I don't think you want it that way for testing--there would be no way to start at a low voltage and work up if you did.

With two circuits like this on each side of the primary, it makes sense why there is a 10 volt reference (VEE).  You only need less than two volts of DC bias at the most.  Ronnie said about 1.23 volts is plenty.

~Russ

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #7, on December 9th, 2016, 02:33 PM »
Brad, can you re post
" Looking at Ronnie's waveform it's hard to tell if there is a bias there...Ronnie, on your scope shots where are you measuring the yellow trace? Is it across the primary coil? "

thanks,

also the Dc bias may not show up till after some cycles , so the sim need to be bale to "flux walk" 

else you will see what you described in your last post i think.

"Output across the coil was like a continuous pulse with small dips between pulses???"

let me try to test mine when i get time this weekend., are you checking the Sig with a coil connected?

~Russ


gpssonar

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #8, on December 9th, 2016, 03:31 PM »Last edited on December 9th, 2016, 03:35 PM
Brad, I may have made a mistake on the VEE voltage.
Try -5 or -10 volts for the VEE I'm thinking it was -5 volts.
Let me know if either works out so i can go back and change my post that I made.

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #9, on December 9th, 2016, 03:54 PM »Last edited on December 9th, 2016, 04:18 PM
Quote from gpssonar on December 9th, 2016, 03:31 PM
Brad, I may have made a mistake on the VEE voltage.
Try -5 or -10 volts for the VEE I'm thinking it was -5 volts.
VEE is normally referenced to the emitter of an NPN transistor (VSS--source for N-type MOSFET), so yeah, it should be near ground level.  And since it is connected to the emitter of a PNP transistor, it must be higher voltage than the collector side which is at zero volts.  I'm guessing more likely +5 volts--can't be below zero.  Okay, I don't "think" it is below zero.



All this talk is good though:  I think I see now how Stan possibly avoided or controlled flux walking.  He has essentially a bipolar configuration by driving the primary from both sides.  Being able to shift the voltage around is how you balance the volt-seconds.

IEEE Standard Letter Symbols for Quantities Used in Electrical Science and Electrical Engineering  See page 26.

gpssonar

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #10, on December 9th, 2016, 04:03 PM »
I'll get with Adam or Dom, they have the VIC card up and running. I'll get one of them on skype and see what the VEE voltage is for sure. Dom sent me a VIC card but I haven't got around to hooking it up yet.

~Russ

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #11, on December 9th, 2016, 05:33 PM »
oh well crap... the first load of test stuff is going home to the tiny shop... one VIc, one cell, ( already there) , Cell driver circuit, and VIC card we made years back, currently gonna test with Iron cores, no need to snap the only ferite one i have... this will tell some stories,

O scope PS and Sig gen is there awaiting me already...

Brad, keep me posted on your driver, ill fallow your foot steps and see if we can get the same results,
FIY... everyone else should also start there, its the 1 thing that EVERYONE can replicate...

~Russ

HMS-776

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #12, on December 9th, 2016, 05:46 PM »
Russ,

I'll keep you posted.  Hopefully I'll get time this weekend to work on it.

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #13, on December 9th, 2016, 06:08 PM »Last edited on December 9th, 2016, 06:14 PM
Quote from ~Russ on December 9th, 2016, 05:33 PM
oh well crap... the first load of test stuff is going home to the tiny shop...
Woohoo!  Russ is back in the game!   :clap:
Quote from ~Russ on December 9th, 2016, 05:33 PM
FIY... everyone else should also start there, its the 1 thing that EVERYONE can replicate...
Sounds good.

Ronnie, you guys made up some boards right?   You still have any for sale?   Otherwise I'll have to use my version that I haven't made yet.

When someone has the exact values for all the VDD, VCC, VEE, etc, please post that info.  I'll start working on a PSU card/board using linear regulators, unless one already exists.  It should only have +battery and ground inputs.


gpssonar

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #14, on December 9th, 2016, 06:16 PM »
We don't have anymore VIC Cards, but we can always order more if we need to.

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #15, on December 9th, 2016, 06:23 PM »
Okay.  Let me kick things around in my head for a bit.

I may just design up a single all-in-one board that has everything necessary for bench testing.  Just analog, no laser accelerator card or anything like that.

If I do this, anyone else want such a thing so I know in advance how many to order?

haxar

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #16, on December 9th, 2016, 06:36 PM »
Order 2 plz. Also price. Ronnie board or your board, Matt? Clarify plz.

~Russ

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #17, on December 9th, 2016, 06:39 PM »
Matt. I would advise to use the vic card we made. It's basically all hand tunable.

Also Tony woodside's schematics.

It Be Nice if Ronnie had all of his work on hand so he could post all of the schematics. Maybe Neil has some that he's willing to share. I know it's a replica of Stan's work but it'd be nice to have all pcbs and information. A lot of hard work went into that along with all the stuff we've done in the past of which is posted on this forum

Don't re invent the weel Matt ;) trying to save you some time. 

~Russ

haxar

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #18, on December 9th, 2016, 06:40 PM »
If everyone uses the same board, we can replicate the same results.

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #19, on December 9th, 2016, 11:44 PM »
Quote from ~Russ on December 9th, 2016, 06:39 PM
Don't re invent the weel Matt ;) trying to save you some time.
Yeah, yeah.  I've lost more than a couple of years I'll never get back on this already.

VCC = 12 volts
VEE = 10 volts (adjustable via LM317)
VDD = 5 volts

Figure 10 is wrong.  Hook things up according figure 1 block diagram.

So it looks to me like we need:
  The final portion of figure 3 from P1 on out to connector J, attached to figure 4.
  All of figure 4 connected to the primary high-side.
  All of figure 5 connected to the primary low-side.
  The input of figure 5 at connector G can be an inverted signal from your signal generator or
    It can come from figure 12, but will have no gating.

So to me, I think we need a single board test solution that incorporates figures 4, 5, 6 & 12, plus the necessary voltage regulators.  From what Ronnie says about the gating, I don't think it's necessary at this point, so we can easily drop figure 6 and just add an inhibit button to manually gate if needed.  Pots should have a low resistance series trimmer to go with them for fine adjustment.  If this can be done properly, all those decade counters on figure 12 can be removed, though it would be good to have one D flip-flop just to make sure we have a solid 50% duty cycle.


~Russ

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #20, on December 10th, 2016, 08:01 AM »Last edited on December 10th, 2016, 08:24 AM
Well. It sounds like we will all be having a "new" single bord test solution.

Also. Make sure your able to have  50% AND adjustible Pulse with


I made that mistake on the rustic custom. But using mosfets as well. Another nono

~Russ
Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #21, on December 10th, 2016, 08:25 AM »
You should make a schmatic all in one so we can all agree on it. Then make a small order. It that's the way we wanna go.

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #22, on December 10th, 2016, 11:35 AM »Last edited on December 10th, 2016, 12:06 PM
I'm not sure what way you guys all want to go.

There are some things in these circuits that leave me saying "hmmm...." to myself.  They may be important; they may be inconsequential.  I'm just afraid if we don't do it as close to exactly the way Stan did, we'll all be asking Ronnie why it doesn't work.  I can see why Ronnie chose to build the whole thing out now.  Some of this is just not obvious to the naked eye.

Dom

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #23, on December 10th, 2016, 01:59 PM »Last edited on December 10th, 2016, 02:06 PM
These are our VIC boards they work as far as we can tell.  However we don't need it at the moment what we do need is a frequency and gate board and to match the impeadance etc... 
we can build VIC boards till the cows come home.. The Vic board also requires the othe boards to work correctly accell board, regulated power supply, pressure sense.... not to mention feed back which we have to find a way to fool it into locking into resonance. 
so all I can say is without a matched and tuned setup vic is useless.. 
sorry can't seem to put pic up ATM???
Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #24, on December 10th, 2016, 02:46 PM »
pics