Dom
Ronnie say that primary and L2 on one core , and secondary and L1 on the other. Or I miss something?

Andy
Yes he may have, All I can say is he has his name on the diagram and that's how I have been operating my coils.
We need Ronnie to varafy which is correct.
That could be why I couldn't get past the polarisation stage...
more testing to be done.

Hi guys! Here they have ferrite U cores
http://powermagnetics.co.uk/pace-components/ferrite-cores/u-cores/u60x55x15-cf138

Why Ronnie dont answer. He is our teacher.

Asking aside where do you get the diode? I got some TVS diodes from ebay and they were small semiconductor types rated 500 watts DC. I wanted to put them between the power supply and the generating build. They worked for about 5 minutes and then bulged at less that 50 watts. Fortunately
the isolation furthered the validation in the 5 minutes and I have 4 more. For a diode does ac or dc matter they seem to be used for both but usually semiconductor boards are in DC.   

Looks like when you guys finish with electronics bump into the core problem at The end that i was ranting for mounths..but no one wants a flat core and puling their hair out with complicated 2 core setup where you have 4 gaps to tune instead of 2 and inductances going trough The roof at 13H insted of 1.2H even with a gap

Adys15,

I had a flat core but got rid of it. It was just too brittle to mess with, cracked too easily.

I'm looking for a different core right now. Until we hear from Ronnie on the coil configuration I'm not going to waste my time testing.

In the mean time I'll be looking for a core that can fit all four coils on it. If I find any I'll update you guys.

The biggest problem with finding a core is finding one with the right characteristics....If the AL is too high getting the right inductance values will result in too much loss of coupling.

That's why Stan used a core with such a small area.

You are Right HMS..I feel the same
I posted this some Time but maibe it helps
http://www.tme.eu/gb/details/u93_76_16-3c90/ferrite-cores/ferroxcube/

U93-76-16

That is a good size, just about what we need.

The Al is 3400nH per turn so 609 turns would be enough for the L1 choke but then your turns and resistance would be off.

We could buy some then have the legs cut to make them 16mm x 16mm square and cut 12mm off the ends to make them 16mm x 16mm as well. That would make them closer to Stan's size and reduce the AL value.

Quote from andy on January 23rd, 2017, 02:50 AM

Why Ronnie dont answer. He is our teacher.

I talked to Ronnie about a week ago. He's got alot going on right now and is busy with other things. He'll be back though, just not sure when.

This may just be a wild off-the-wall idea, but I some feelings about the coils and cores used in the VIC.

If we look at the two chokes as antenna loading coils that are slightly out-of-phase with each other, then the gapped core really is only there to provide a mechanism to get the chokes to oscillate at their SRF.  One of the chokes (L2) basically vibrates at the input frequency.  The other choke (L1) vibrates at the same SRF as the secondary.  The diode between the secondary and L1 keeps these two coils from acting like a single coil which would have a much lower SRF.  In my viewpoint, the core becomes a transfer medium to get these vibrations to propagate.  If the flux that jumps the gap overpowers the SRF of the secondary and L1, you're sunk.  If the flux is too weak to jump the gap effectively, you're sunk.  So the core must have just the right characteristics to allow the gap to be relatively easy to adjust--probably in the range of 2mm to 10mm.  My feeling is with the wrong core, you can't tune the VIC by adjusting the gap width.  With a proper core (whatever that turns out to be), it should be real easy to find the proper gap setting that will allow the two chokes (specifically the L1) to work as they need to.

Quote from HMS-776 on January 23rd, 2017, 08:15 AM

The biggest problem with finding a core is finding one with the right characteristics....If the AL is too high getting the right inductance values will result in too much loss of coupling.

That's why Stan used a core with such a small area.

I think you are exactly correct HMS.  There is a sweet spot where things are easy to tune.  Anything else and you really have your hands full or simply can't get it to work.

Good points there Matt.

Stan's core really is a one off design. He needed the high number of turns to reduce the voltage between them...But he also needed a high permeability core to get a good coupling and at the same time a small AL value.

Finding a core with similar characteristics might not be possible. The way I see it we can have them specifically made or we can buy something then cut it to a smaller size.

My only issue is that the thin core like Stan had is brittle (my original one broke) so I want to find something else that all coils can fit on.

Quote from Dom on January 22nd, 2017, 04:35 AM

Here are my coils i have removed them from my housing as the secondary coil is splitting and needs to be replaced.
The second pic is how i have wired it.

Brad,

Please do place your coils like this photo Dom posted.

I was able to get some interesting results as you watched in my live streams from Manny years ago.

i will post all of them here now just so there in one place.

my cores were in isolated holders as well.

my conclusion was that any resistance killed the resonance.

Here are all those videos: its a lot but scan through them.

scroll down to about 2 years ago. there are video after video of this duel core set up.

https://www.youtube.com/user/RWGresearchLive/videos

also remember that you can get all bobbins on theses Chinese cores... by going like this:


small changes and we are good to go... about the best you can do with those cores...

we all already have...

Russ
This setup of cores has the gaps in improper place - in the middle of the each coils.

I tend to agree with andy.  You have two too many gaps and those gaps look way too big for that type of core.  Don't think those will work based on my current understanding of how the VIC possibly works.

Matt
We can make the bobbins shorter and gap will be smaller but still the gaps will be in the middle of each coils.
Stans VIC have 2 gaps beetwen 2 pairs of coils.

Quote

"small changes and we are good to go..." ~Russ

This was just a demonstration :facepalm: ...

~Russ


PS if they were not clear you would not have know lol

the bobbins turn to put it all the way in ... theses were already glued

We get something to work and many variations people can actually source parts for and build will be on the table.

It seems that all coils have to be coupled for this to work.

I have been looking into other cores that could hold all four coils but it's difficult to find anything near what Stan was using.

If we use a different size core it might be possible to use a different gauge wire to get the same number of turns and resistance as Stan's. The only concern then is coil capacitance. Compare 27 and 29AWG and you find it would take 500ft more of 27awg wire to get the same 76.7 ohms resistance.
So the difference in capacitance might prevent it from working....arrrrgh!

Adys15 posted a link to a large ferrite core. It's properties are similar to the China U cores were using now, but it has a higher AL value.

One problem I am seeing, and something which makes sense about Stan's custom made cores is this: When you have a core with a high AL value and you try to gap it to tune the inductance as the gap changes the AL tolerances also change. This makes tuning even more difficult, you can imagine that any vibration or even the smallest change in the gap will change the inductance values and could prevent resonance...Even the vibration the coils create in the core could do this.

That is why Stan needed a core with a large surface area but a small volume. Do the math and you find his ferrite core had an AL value of around 100-120.
Most ungapped ferrite cores have an AL value over 2000.

I've been asked about my drive circuit. So here it is. You will likely have to change some of the resistor values to get it working correctly. I just drew it up without checking the values in my circuit as I've made so many changes to it over the last few weeks. It drives the coil just fine but no resonance so no guarantees it will work.

Lately Matt and others have discovered that Stan's Drive circuit changes the duty cycle as the frequency changes, mine does not do that.
The work continues, now you guys know how to get variable amplitude pulsing during the off time though!

Also, if you want to add a DC bias simply connect a pot from Vdd to gnd then put the center pin on the base of the Tip120, that's what I'm doing, using a 5k pot with a 1K resistor at the Tip120 base.

Quote from HMS-776 on January 28th, 2017, 05:37 PM

Lately Matt and others have discovered that Stan's Drive circuit changes the duty cycle as the frequency changes, mine does not do that.

My suspicion is this tapered duty cycle relates to the L1 & L2 coils:  pulse-off-time effecting the L2 & pulse-on-time effecting the L1.  Just a hunch at this point.  What is clear to me though is Stan's circuit manipulates the duty cycle for a reason, else he would have used a much more simple drive mechanism.

Ronnie did mention somewhere among the hurricane of posts that impedance match has two criteria:  One when the pulse is on and the other when the pulse is off.  Again, there must be a reason and I suspect the chokes and duty cycle play into this.



I want to apologize for slacking off as of late.  My desk is in total disarray with bobbins, wire, bread-boards, parts and test equipment.  If that weren't enough, dentists and psychotic computers have zapped a good portion of my time.  Hoping to get focused again here soon.  I have a bunch of supplies to send to Russ and he has graciously offered to wind my bobbins on his Pro Winder machine.  When that is done and I have real stuff to begin testing with again, we may just get a few answers to some of my theories.
Then it's on to doing a final VIC Driver Board design and getting some boards fab'd and populated.  Still need a decent cell to test with, but one step at a time they say...

Quote from HMS-776 on January 28th, 2017, 05:37 PM

I've been asked about my drive circuit. So here it is. You will likely have to change some of the resistor values to get it working correctly. I just drew it up without checking the values in my circuit as I've made so many changes to it over the last few weeks. It drives the coil just fine but no resonance so no guarantees it will work.

Lately Matt and others have discovered that Stan's Drive circuit changes the duty cycle as the frequency changes, mine does not do that.
The work continues, now you guys know how to get variable amplitude pulsing during the off time though!

Also, if you want to add a DC bias simply connect a pot from Vdd to gnd then put the center pin on the base of the Tip120, that's what I'm doing, using a 5k pot with a 1K resistor at the Tip120 base.

Quote from HMS-776 on January 15th, 2017, 10:42 PM

Webmug,

I use a dual channel frequency gen....First I put the Hf and Gate through a 4011 and 4013 ic to sync the two then combine them two using a few 2n2222's which drive the base of a TIP120.

It's all on a breadboard right now so I don't have a schematic yet....I'm waiting on a smaller value pot because the TIP120 is not switching the lower amplitude pulses. Still refining things a bit, but so far I get clean square waves to the TIP120 base unless I take the voltage too high.

Quote from HMS-776 on January 28th, 2017, 09:32 AM

Adys15,

I use a dual channel signal gen to produce the high and low frequency pulsing. The +10V supply rail first goes through a 10k resistor, the circuit then splits, one leg goes to the collector of a 2n2222 which base is driven by the high frequency signal. The other leg off the 10k resistor goes through a pot then to the collector of another 2n2222 that is driven by the low frequency signal. The pot controls the pulse amplitude during the "off time".
The center post of the pot drives the base of another 2n2222 which drives the base of the TIP120.

I'll draw up a basic schematic later if you need, just let me know. Right now it's all on a breadboard.

Looks like the circuit schematic you posted isn't complete...
~webmug

Quote from Matt Watts on January 15th, 2017, 10:15 AM

Doesn't matter Russ.  Scope through the driver circuit and you will see the 50% duty cycle is maintained all the way through until you get to the base of the TIP120--that's where you'll see duty cycle gets altered.

Matt, I checked the base of the TIP120 in my circuit, I don't see any change in duty cycle as I increase the frequency?

Are you sure it's not part of the voltage amplitude control circuit?
To me it seems that's where it's coming from, the capacitor resistor diode network there?

I would like to integrate it into my circuit if there's a way. Right now building the whole thing is out of the question until I order more components.


Webmug, you can use the same logic Stan used and it will do the same thing. I just wanted to do things differently, see how well that worked lol, Still searching for resonance.

Btw, I'm still working on the circuit...I might need to change the TIP120 to something else. When I adjust the amplitude during the gate I don't see any pulsing on the primary during the gate until the amplitude reaches close to the amplitude of the typical incoming pulses to the tip120 base, then it pretty much just saturates. 
I think a darlington won't work if your trying to adjust the pulse amplitude like I am doing.

Quote from HMS-776 on January 30th, 2017, 04:14 PM

Matt, I checked the base of the TIP120 in my circuit, I don't see any change in duty cycle as I increase the frequency?

Are you sure it's not part of the voltage amplitude control circuit?

Positive.

Build the VIC circuit as we have posted in this thread and scope through each transistor.  Until you get to the TIP120, you will see a nice 50% duty cycle.  At that final drive is where you'll see the voltage shift that causes the TIP120 to lag at turn-off.  As you up the frequency, you'll get to a point where the output of the TIP120 is always on--100% duty cycle.  To me this behavior looks clearly by design.  It's a linear tapering of the duty cycle controlled by the frequency.  What that means is you can precisely control the duty cycle to PPM resolution by adjusting the frequency.  And as I mentioned before, my theory is the off-time should sync with the L2 and the on-time with the L1--the L2 being slightly higher frequency (shorter wire length).  I honestly think the wire length on those two chokes is far more important than anyone has considered to this point.  They control the exact phasing the cell sees.  Brettly posted some wavelength numbers in the centimeter range that is critical to water disassociation.  So we're talking phase shift frequencies in the gigahertz range.

Quote from Matt Watts on February 1st, 2017, 01:09 AM

Positive.

Build the VIC circuit as we have posted in this thread and scope through each transistor.  Until you get to the TIP120, you will see a nice 50% duty cycle.  At that final drive is where you'll see the voltage shift that causes the TIP120 to lag at turn-off.  As you up the frequency, you'll get to a point where the output of the TIP120 is always on--100% duty cycle.  To me this behavior looks clearly by design.  It's a linear tapering of the duty cycle controlled by the frequency.  What that means is you can precisely control the duty cycle to PPM resolution by adjusting the frequency.  And as I mentioned before, my theory is the off-time should sync with the L2 and the on-time with the L1--the L2 being slightly higher frequency (shorter wire length).  I honestly think the wire length on those two chokes is far more important than anyone has considered to this point.  They control the exact phasing the cell sees.  Brettly posted some wavelength numbers in the centimeter range that is critical to water disassociation.  So we're talking phase shift frequencies in the gigahertz range.

Thanks for the reply, looks like I'll be building that circuit.

Where does the voltage shift come from?