Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board

Webmug

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #425, on February 6th, 2017, 12:11 PM »Last edited on February 6th, 2017, 12:14 PM
Quote from ~Russ on February 6th, 2017, 11:51 AM
there will be 4 types of core set ups.

more once we get there. its not ready yet...
Matt dose not even know just yet what ill be sending him he he...

 :)

we will get to the bottom of this some tome... 

~Russ

PS. with the help of amazing fends we were able to get Matt a good set of original cores we ordered. as well as i have 2 different perm flat cores coming my way for testing ( borrowing them)....

~Russ
Great! :)


Importaint are the core materials specs, curve, type used for reference notes. I still have my two types of cores to compare. But coils are not the same you have, different apple, lol
Are you using red wire for the coils?
If you can test 10 cells with that new vic is a good start! :)


~webmug

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #426, on February 6th, 2017, 12:15 PM »
Quote from ~Russ on February 6th, 2017, 11:51 AM
Matt dose not even know just yet what ill be sending him he he...
Yawzaa!

Speaking of "not knowing", a package is heading your way this evening.  Hope you can use some more amps.   :-P

My biggest fear is that everything doesn't make it there in one piece.  I have my fingers crossed.  If the good Lord is willing and the creek don't rise...

~Russ

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #427, on February 6th, 2017, 02:05 PM »
Quote from Matt Watts on February 6th, 2017, 12:15 PM
Yawzaa!

Speaking of "not knowing", a package is heading your way this evening.  Hope you can use some more amps.   :-P

My biggest fear is that everything doesn't make it there in one piece.  I have my fingers crossed.  If the good Lord is willing and the creek don't rise...
yeah i seen that... 19lb for 5PS, im guessing the 45LB will get me a few more amps hehe,

at least you dont have the cores in those bobbins.. haha then i would be afraid. Els supper glue dose wonders :)
Quote from Webmug on February 6th, 2017, 12:11 PM
Importaint are the core materials specs, curve, type used for reference notes. I still have my two types of cores to compare. But coils are not the same you have, different apple, lol
Are you using red wire for the coils?
If you can test 10 cells with that new vic is a good start! :)
you only have one flat core right? the other is the china core?

red... well they might be brown or green... but they all still have 5 seeds...

~Russ

PS. I only have 7 ( 8 if you count the bodged one ) cells... so its what i got for now... I may be able to make up one more. i think i got the SS parts, i just need to get the plastics parts and such to do so...

Webmug

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #428, on February 6th, 2017, 02:27 PM »
Quote from ~Russ on February 6th, 2017, 02:05 PM
yeah i seen that... 19lb for 5PS, im guessing the 45LB will get me a few more amps hehe,

at least you dont have the cores in those bobbins.. haha then i would be afraid. Els supper glue dose wonders :)


you only have one flat core right? the other is the china core?

red... well they might be brown or green... but they all still have 5 seeds...

~Russ

PS. I only have 7 ( 8 if you count the bodged one ) cells... so its what i got for now... I may be able to make up one more. i think i got the SS parts, i just need to get the plastics parts and such to do so...
No china cores, just two type of material flat cores sets Dynodon measured dimensions.


Stan had red wire, so that is the coating, solderable red i assume ohh well... :)


~webmug

~Russ

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #429, on February 6th, 2017, 02:34 PM »
Quote from Webmug on February 6th, 2017, 02:27 PM
No china cores, just two type of material flat cores sets Dynodon measured dimensions.


Stan had red wire, so that is the coating, solderable red i assume ohh well... :)


~webmug
What Is the source for the other flat core and do you have any info on it?

yes well the wire is wire... we got stuff ( Matt Got) That has high dielectric coating... Matt can you post a direct link here? ( or in the "parts section")

Thanks!!

~Russ

Webmug

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #430, on February 6th, 2017, 02:52 PM »Last edited on February 6th, 2017, 02:53 PM
Quote from ~Russ on February 6th, 2017, 02:34 PM
What Is the source for the other flat core and do you have any info on it?

yes well the wire is wire... we got stuff ( Matt Got) That has high dielectric coating... Matt can you post a direct link here? ( or in the "parts section")

Thanks!!

~Russ
Wire is not wire, it coatings changes the self-capacitance of the coils.

One core set was from Per Ritter 2000 perm. and the other custom made same as you have.
~webmug

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #431, on February 6th, 2017, 04:54 PM »
Quote from ~Russ on February 6th, 2017, 02:34 PM
yes well the wire is wire... we got stuff ( Matt Got) That has high dielectric coating... Matt can you post a direct link here? ( or in the "parts section")
https://www.temcoindustrial.com/29-awg-copper-magnet-wire-5-lb-mw0534-magnetic-coil-gpmr200.html
Quote from Webmug on February 6th, 2017, 02:52 PM
Wire is not wire, it coatings changes the self-capacitance of the coils.
I sure hope it puts us in the ballpark.   My hunch is the process that Russ uses to wind these coils will be more critical than the coating on the wire itself.  Again, we won't know until we try it.  Whatever we do though, it has to be something we can all replicate, because if we get one replication working, that needs to be the beginning, not the end of what is to follow.




Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #435, on February 18th, 2017, 01:50 AM »Last edited on February 18th, 2017, 02:16 AM
Quote from haxar on February 17th, 2017, 07:51 PM
Yey. Time to debug.
Not too bad Hax, only four relatively minor issues:
  • Changed the resistor for the LED--was a tad too large for this green one.
  • Cut a trace and added a resistor to the bottom of the board to protect a transistor.
  • Had two caps reversed that control the gating.
  • Too small of holes for the terminal blocks--had to scrape the pins down with a knife to get them to fit.
Other than that it works.  PLL locks right in.  Yeah team!   Attached is the schematic as it currently sits.

Going from a breadboard to a PCB sure makes the same circuit far more stable.  I wouldn't have thought that only running in the audio range.



Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #438, on February 18th, 2017, 11:25 PM »Last edited on February 18th, 2017, 11:31 PM
Okay so I got to ask everyone:

Do you want just the board or the whole thing populated?  If populated, do you want them roughly tuned also?

Do you want me to order a newer slightly improved version that has the bugs I found fixed?

Do you want to wait for the "Russ requested version" that is nearly identical to Stan's circuits?

Do you want to wait until I have coils hooked to this so I can better demonstrate what it does?


I'm game to help with these boards however people prefer.  I have two unpopulated boards that aren't doing me any good at the moment if someone wants one of those.  I'm going to keep pressing forward regardless.  The goal is to eliminate any struggle people might have on the electronics side, by making something as close to plug-n-play as I possibly can.  I know that's what it will take to get some of you guys (uh hum, Lynx) fully onboard.


haxar

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #439, on February 19th, 2017, 04:05 AM »Last edited on February 19th, 2017, 04:12 AM
I'll take one.

I'll also take: Respun, populated and working as intended (tuned).

If that happens, you could tune all the boards the same way at the same time (quality check). We could all have a reference board to study on.

Once the board is set in stone, we could figure what to do from there. :clap2:

Webmug

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #440, on February 19th, 2017, 07:17 AM »
Quote from Matt Watts on February 18th, 2017, 11:25 PM
Okay so I got to ask everyone:

Do you want just the board or the whole thing populated?  If populated, do you want them roughly tuned also?

Do you want me to order a newer slightly improved version that has the bugs I found fixed?

Do you want to wait for the "Russ requested version" that is nearly identical to Stan's circuits?

Do you want to wait until I have coils hooked to this so I can better demonstrate what it does?


I'm game to help with these boards however people prefer.  I have two unpopulated boards that aren't doing me any good at the moment if someone wants one of those.  I'm going to keep pressing forward regardless.  The goal is to eliminate any struggle people might have on the electronics side, by making something as close to plug-n-play as I possibly can.  I know that's what it will take to get some of you guys (uh hum, Lynx) fully onboard.
Quote
Do you want to wait until I have coils hooked to this so I can better demonstrate what it does?
This question asked makes me confused how you tested the circuit in the first place?

You wrote the pll works by locking in...on what?? I tested multiple coils where the signal from the pickup coil should be in phase with the primary input pulse. Guess what...there are distortions of pulses...(converted ac to dc) were there is no phase sync. So if this occurs you cant test the pll. You want 50% du in and out...

This out off phase with harmonics occurs when the vic transformer coils are not tuned (capacitance, inductance) and each vic transformer has different capacitance, inductance. So one vic card cant be correctly calibrated for different vics.

Also all the ic chips must equal type of the same series, change the part and you have different operation of the circuit.

Also what still is unanswered, on what frequency the vic had resonance and also the doubling of frequency phenomenon. Right now with the capacitance, inductance and core I have a resonance frequency of 16kHz.

The circuit can only pulse 50% du, max. Approx. 10khz, after that dutycycle starts to change.I only can say, Matt try to test it first with a proper vic with fb coil and wfc and experiment with it before you start to sell that card. I want to see some scope measurements of in/out/phase signals and data first btw.

My opinion..
~webmug

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #441, on February 19th, 2017, 09:27 PM »Last edited on February 19th, 2017, 09:30 PM
Quote from Webmug on February 19th, 2017, 07:17 AM
You wrote the pll works by locking in...on what??
Any signal that passes through the current sense transformer.

Using this current sense transformer as a mixer has a huge advantage BTW.  You can connect the feedback to it and turn things on.  What will happen is the PLL will immediately lock at its base frequency of 1kHz thereabout.  With the feedback disconnected, the VCO will sit at the base frequency out of lock, but steady at 1kHz.  Now what is cool is you can use the feedback and let the PLL lock, then send another signal through the current sense transformer from your signal generator and walk the frequency all around.  If you disconnect the signal generator, the PLL will hold that lock at whatever frequency you were at when you disconnected the signal generator.  So what we have is a very slick-n-easy way to do frequency scanning while under PLL control.  If something in the VIC is resonating, the PLL will drift right to that resonant condition and stay there.

I haven't done this testing with the "real" VIC yet, but I have done it on my mockup VIC and it does just what I'm saying.  Another quite interesting thing you can do when your core is gapped is place the pickup coil anywhere near that gap on the outside and the PLL will lock.  If you close the gap which lowers the leakage flux, the PLL will come out of lock (no signal).  With my big cores pulsing at only two volts and a 2mm gap, I can be an inch out and away from the gap and the PLL with still sense enough signal to lock.  It gives you an idea just how much flux is escaping from the core when you have an air gap.
Quote from Webmug on February 19th, 2017, 07:17 AM
So if this occurs you cant test the pll. You want 50% du in and out...
The PLL will lock to any signal input regardless of duty cycle.  It's only looking for the zero cross of the current; that becomes the phase alignment the PLL attempts to sync with.

The output is no less than 50% duty cycle.  There is a pot I added that will stretch the range to about 60kHz before 100% duty cycle is reached, depending upon the make of the TIP120 used.  You can use the pot to set the cutoff however you like within reason.
Quote from Webmug on February 19th, 2017, 07:17 AM
So one vic card cant be correctly calibrated for different vics.
True, but it can be referenced to a starting point.  Gating, voltage level, center frequency and duty cycle cutoff can be set to known values.  I can tell you right now, if I populated one of these boards and sent it to you without this pre-tuning, you'd be pulling your hair out for a while trying to guess what all those pots do and which way to turn them.  I've been through it few times myself.  You have to know what kind of signals to inject, where to place your probes and what to look for.  My thought is to set minimal gating, two volt output, center frequency around 15 kHz with the duty cycle cutoff at 30kHz.  From there you could tweak things however they need to be for the VIC you connect it to.
Quote from Webmug on February 19th, 2017, 07:17 AM
Also all the ic chips must equal type of the same series, change the part and you have different operation of the circuit.
Margin of error.  I can tell you right now, I can produce two boards that are so very close in behavior and performance that I could not tell which one was which without marking them.  If we need precision greater than this to make the VIC function, we'll be swinging at bats in a dark room for a long time.
Quote from Webmug on February 19th, 2017, 07:17 AM
Also what still is unanswered, on what frequency the vic had resonance and also the doubling of frequency phenomenon. Right now with the capacitance, inductance and core I have a resonance frequency of 16kHz.
I don't think we can be sure "resonance" is the necessary condition where the splitting of the water molecules happens.  The frequency may be close to resonance in one of the coils, or all of the coils or someplace else.  I'm pretty sure there is some frequency where the magic happens.  We really have no choice but to let the test apparatus talk to us.  We have to sense what it wants, what it needs to do the thing we are after.
Quote from Webmug on February 19th, 2017, 07:17 AM
The circuit can only pulse 50% du, max. Approx. 10khz, after that dutycycle starts to change.
Fifty percent duty cycle minimum.  With the pot I added, you can control how this duty cycle cutoff behaves, which I still think is important.
Quote from Webmug on February 19th, 2017, 07:17 AM
I only can say, Matt try to test it first with a proper vic with fb coil and wfc and experiment with it before you start to sell that card. I want to see some scope measurements of in/out/phase signals and data first btw.
That's the plan.  If I had all of Ronnie's stuff sitting on my bench and working, we would be well ahead of the game.  I don't and won't, so we need to work a little slower and pull ourselves up inch by inch until we can see where we need to go next.  This board is my first crack at trying to elevate just one inch higher; that is all for the moment.  I've studied and played with the circuits Stan shows us in the patents and in his estate photos enough to say that this board I produced should be a step in the right direction.  We still have a long way to go.


HMS-776

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #442, on February 20th, 2017, 09:54 AM »
I like the work you guys are doing with the drive circuit and pll and I'll definately buy one. The only thing I wonder is if it will make things easier or more complicated?

Ronnie told me the first time he got his cell working he was using a very basic two channel function generator. His vic was an ots transformer and a set of chokes he made. He was not using any of Stan's circuits and got it working.

Does anyone know what he's using now?  Last I heard it was the PGEN?

But all of this tuning has been a nightmare. I would be pretty excited if all I had to do was connect a pll to get the cell working. I have not been working on the wfc lately but the last drive circuit I put together did show the duty cycle change.



Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #445, on February 23rd, 2017, 11:07 PM »Last edited on February 23rd, 2017, 11:11 PM
Here's is the latest-n-greatest PCB I just finished designing.  It has several bugs fixed.  It is smaller, cheaper and has test & jumper pins added to make it easier to get tuned.  It also uses a meshed copper pour on the bottom acting as a signal shield.

https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/lc5whvXr

Attached is a ZIP file with all the DipTrace design work--Component libraries, schematic and board layout.  Also in there is a bill of material file you can upload directly to Mouser.com to get the parts you need, though I caution buying in small quantities due to the heavy markup.  Get at least 10 of everything to save some money overall, then you can help a friend.   :blink2:

Once I have this PCB in my hand with all the components populated, I'll do some testing to make sure all the bugs are fixed and that everything performs as expected.  Then it's on to the more original version which will be larger, more complicated and more expensive.  I suppose after that we can do some comparison tests and see if there are features missing from one version or the other that is needed.

I still have this feeling if we seek frequency doubling, the PLL should be outputting half the frequency it sees on the feedback.  I haven't really seen a discussion here about this.  Stan's circuits have banks of divide-by-ten and whether those are actually used or not is still in question.  My thought is we should have a selectable (jumper) that inserts a D flip-flop between the comparator and the signal into the PLL.  I just wish I knew for sure if the "frequency doubling" is actually seen by the comparator or if this is an artifact we only see in the coils, not the core.  If we don't see it in the core, maybe we need to get our feedback signal from some other source, then we could be sure to have the PLL lock into the correct driving frequency.  The whole point of the PLL is to make this thing completely automatic, which it will do if it can see what it needs to lock into.


Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #447, on March 5th, 2017, 06:23 PM »Last edited on March 5th, 2017, 06:28 PM
I'm not certain yet, but I may have discovered an oversight in our thinking here.

I was researching various capacitive discharge circuits and came about the topology shown in the attachment below.

It dawned on me the VIC circuit has this same parallel diode across the primary and would have the same characteristic response as shown in Figure 5.  Basically we charge the primary and when it kicks back, the parallel diode holds the current in the primary until it dissipates and with a 10 ohm primary, that happens pretty fast.

What occurred to me is we are actually using a capacitive discharge circuit, but the "C" in Figure 4 is unknown.  We simply do not know how much charge the primary actually gets when the TIP120 conducts.  We know the voltage and we know the duration, but there is more to it than that.

I'm really wondering if a capacitive discharge circuit in this application would be helpful.  Then based on the value of the capacitor we would know exactly how many joules we just sent to the primary for each cycle/pulse.  Call it precision charge metering.  I'm actually working on a circuit based off the IR21844 to test this theory a little more in detail.  I don't know if any of this is important or not.   I just found it interesting when I stumbled upon it.

Gunther Rattay

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #448, on March 5th, 2017, 11:03 PM »Last edited on March 5th, 2017, 11:24 PM
It´s all about that single peak shown in figure 5. Sufficient maximum peak voltage over RC at secondary will do the job (like on a spark plug - but ionization instead of lightning).

so this is a crossroad point - some say high voltage is important for gas production others say high voltage is not important for gas production but another mechanism. Who´s correct - who´s wrong?

My opinion: voltage is most important and other mechanisms like resonance, impedance matching and frequency filtering/tuning are supportive methods to maximize voltage output on the secondary. Create > 1000 V over a single Stan Meyer dimentioned tube for a peak moment of time by using a mechanism like in a charge pump and you are done. Unfortunately to create that condition is more difficult than expected.

If someone has a system up and running as Ronnie said he has it´s not likely that peak output voltage is unknown. Indeed that´s the first measurement done in operation ;)

So once more - why are no voltages over the cell documented related to gas production yet???

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #449, on March 6th, 2017, 12:06 AM »Last edited on March 6th, 2017, 12:13 AM
Quote from Gunther Rattay on March 5th, 2017, 11:03 PM
My opinion: voltage is most important ...
I would agree Gunther, but as suggested in the later posts of this thread, voltage may not be all we think it is.  I would be willing to bet if two devices were built, one that generates T.E.M. waves and another that generates L.M.D. waves, very few people would recognize the differences in the output.  Both would produce measurable voltage but the effects of each device on various objects would be quite different.  If these two devices were in sealed black boxes where we had no idea of the circuitry contained within, most people would eventually give up trying to understand the differences.
Quote from Gunther Rattay on March 5th, 2017, 11:03 PM
Unfortunately to create that condition is more difficult than expected.
I'll go a step further.  If you create high voltage the wrong way, it will be impossible to achieve the effects you desire.


So Gunther, lets find out.


Ronnie, does your VIC output T.E.M. waves to your water fuel cell or does it output L.M.D. waves?