Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board

~Russ

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #200, on December 31st, 2016, 12:14 AM »
Ok. Well I spent all night and trobble shot a bad ground wire.

In the end the voltage control is happy.

I would add some trimmer pots instead of the fixed 1k's on the 50k pot. Eazer to set to max and min.  All resistors are diffrent. Just a thought.

The hard part for me is that I did not have that opto you had so I never got it to drive right.

I'll order some. Then it should be happy.

~Russ

~Russ

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #201, on December 31st, 2016, 02:11 PM »
ok ordering parts, so far the 12V regulator needs to be 5A at least. of will blow up the regulator you haven there...

LM1084IT-12 seems to be a good choice.

unfortunately i can only find those from china.

next alternative is an adjustable one.

LM1084IT-ADJ
 
or we could use those cheep converters externally.  but i don't like that idea.


so why 5A ? because everything else is rated for no less than (max) 5A...

~Russ

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #202, on December 31st, 2016, 02:52 PM »
An LM338 will do 5 amps.  I'm going to try that approach and remove the TIP120 and 2N3055 since it is already an adjustable regulator.  If the waveform doesn't change, I'll go with that.

It was my understanding we are only driving about 15 watts to the cell under max conditions.  Seems odd we would need that much overkill.


Gunther Rattay

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #204, on January 1st, 2017, 09:45 AM »
Quote from ~Russ on December 31st, 2016, 02:11 PM
ok ordering parts, so far the 12V regulator needs to be 5A at least. of will blow up the regulator you haven there...

LM1084IT-12 seems to be a good choice.

unfortunately i can only find those from china.

next alternative is an adjustable one.

LM1084IT-ADJ
 
or we could use those cheep converters externally.  but i don't like that idea.


so why 5A ? because everything else is rated for no less than (max) 5A...

~Russ
there is a cheap alternative: LM2931

http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/LM2931-D.PDF

figure 20 at page 9 shows how to extend amp range from 100 mA to whatever current you need by choosing adequate transistors.
fig. 20 also serves short circuit protection :)

Gunther Rattay

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #205, on January 1st, 2017, 09:48 AM »
Quote from Matt Watts on December 31st, 2016, 02:52 PM
An LM338 will do 5 amps.  I'm going to try that approach and remove the TIP120 and 2N3055 since it is already an adjustable regulator.  If the waveform doesn't change, I'll go with that.

It was my understanding we are only driving about 15 watts to the cell under max conditions.  Seems odd we would need that much overkill.
I also thought about that years ago. but i think that pulsing from the switching transistor will force regulator into regulating oscillations while regulating (=power consuming) transistor won´t be interfered the same way due to "stupid" behavior instead of "intelligent" behavior of the regulator.

but needs testing of course ...

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #206, on January 2nd, 2017, 07:10 AM »Last edited on January 2nd, 2017, 07:15 AM
Okay, I swapped the Voltage Amplitude Control circuit for a simple LM338 setup and it seems to work fine.  Very accurate and adjustable voltage control now--1.2 volt all the way to VBAT - 1.2 volt.  The 1uF filter cap on the output is the same as in the VAC circuit.  The only issue I'm seeing at the moment is that the LM338 should probably be on a heat-sink.  It does get hot when you run a 10 ohm inductive load against it.  Surprisingly the TIP120 doesn't get hot at all--guessing because it is thrown into saturation unlike the LM338 regulator.

I also used a SN74LS221 dual monostable multivibrator for the gating signal generation into the PLL and it works flawlessly.  This design lets you set both the gate-on and normal run duration independent of each other and the pulse frequency.  I'm waiting on some logic chips to add to the circuit to prevent pulse truncation and should have some final results to report in a week or so.

For the feedback signal, I started with the LM741, which works semi-okay; an LM358 works a little better.  I ordered some LM393 comparators that I will setup as a true zero crossing detector which should work even better.  What I'm seeing so far is the better the feedback signal, the better the PLL locks to and tracks the resonant action of the output load (VIC).

So what I can say for the moment is:  I have a pretty solid all-in-one VIC driver circuit coming together.  The final board should be able to do everything we need to drive and tune a VIC.  Once Russ has an authentic replica of a VIC ready and an 11 cavity cell connected, the board I'm proposing should make it run.  From there we should all have a platform to test with.

Keep your fingers crossed guys, this may be the year we get'r done.


gpssonar

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #208, on January 2nd, 2017, 10:46 AM »Last edited on January 2nd, 2017, 11:10 AM
Matt that is the Gas feedback control circuit.
1: It has the pressure transducer hooked to it.
2: It maintains a certain low pressure limit.
3: If the pressure gets to a certain high pressure limit it turns the cell off.
4: It also has a pressure gauge hooked to it so you can see the pressure in the cell.


Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #210, on January 2nd, 2017, 10:07 PM »
I did some more playing with the PLL circuit tonight and I can tell you this much for certain--if the PLL is adjusted right and your feedback is good, the circuit will find resonance in a split second.  It will go right to the resonant point and lock anywhere in its configured bandwidth.  From there, as long as you stay in that bandwidth, it will stay locked.  You can change capacitance, duty cycle, whatever you want and the PLL will track the resonant point.

For testing I'm just using a wall transformer in step-up configuration and adding/subtracting capacitors on the high side with my current loop around it.  My feedback circuit isn't real good, but there's enough signal there for the PLL to find the rising edge and hang with it wherever I move it.




Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #214, on January 3rd, 2017, 05:50 AM »Last edited on January 3rd, 2017, 06:00 AM
Andy, this is the circuit I plan on testing next once my parts get here.  I'll drive it with 5 volts like everything else.  I expect it to work the best, but still need to run it through the paces.

I'm currently using Stan's circuit with the LM741 replaced by a LM358.  It's okay, but not the best.  Not real stable either--I notice the behavior change when I attach a scope probe.

The thing to keep in mind is that whatever signal the feedback circuit produces, that's the signal the PLL will track, so it's important the feedback circuit sees the right thing.  Part of this is the pickup coil or sensor and the rest is the feedback circuit itself.  With the circuit below, it's probably best to use shielded coax from the pickup coil back to the feedback circuit, which can be done pretty easily since one side is grounded.


Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #216, on January 3rd, 2017, 11:42 AM »
Quote from andy on January 3rd, 2017, 08:00 AM
Matt when scanning circuit change frequency of the PLL - then PLL seeks for max amplitude of signal and lock to this frequency of max amplitude ?
I'm not implementing the scanning circuit at this point.   From what I can see so far, the PLL does everything we need.  If the PLL is configured to have its capture range anywhere around the actual resonant frequency point, the PLL will find this frequency and track it automatically.  All that is needed is to adjust the PLL center frequency so that it's somewhere close to the actual resonant frequency of the VIC and WFC.  I'm currently looking at how to best adjust the capture range so the PLL doesn't attempt to lock on a harmonic, which can happen if the center frequency is set too high.

The PLL itself doesn't look at amplitude at all.  It finds the edge of the signal, typically at the zero crossing.  Hence, it's called a phase lock loop, because phase is what it is tracking.  The means it uses to do this is by adjusting its internal VCO frequency until the phase angles line up or match.  The output of the VCO drives the VIC and the feedback into the PLL phase detector determines how good a match it has and adjusts the frequency of the VCO accordingly.  What you get in the end is exactly like you said--maximum amplitude or a resonant condition with voltage and current exactly 90 degrees from each other.  This is the crux of impedance--a condition where at maximum voltage, there is zero current, which is why the voltage rises--there's nothing to stop it.  Resistance can "impede" current, but it cannot do anything to voltage.  So with no current, no resistance is felt by the tank circuit.  Keep in mind this is only true precisely where the current is zero; at any other phase angle this is no longer true--regular Ohm's Law rules apply.

Where I'm a little concerned about all this is the talk of frequency doubling.  What this is, is a wave traveling through the coils and bouncing back in such a way where you have two waves superimposed on each other--one came from the driver and the other is the reflected wave.  I suspect the feedback may see both of these waves; if it does, it will try to speed up the VCO to match the phase, which is not what we want.  I'm not real sure yet how Stan handled this unless by purely using a filter.  It should be possible to take the signal exiting the feedback circuit and divide this by two before sending it to the PLL phase detector.  I can't see that Stan did this or if he did, I'm not understanding how without using a D flip-flop or something similar.  Maybe based on where the pickup coil is positioned, the feedback circuit never sees the reflected wave.  Just not real certain at this point, but we will find out.


andy

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #218, on January 3rd, 2017, 01:51 PM »Last edited on January 3rd, 2017, 01:54 PM
Matt
Is the pickup coil and resonant feedback circuit see the ringing of LC circuit on its natural frequency after pulse from the primary coil from output "4" of PLL?
What is the task of signal going from primary coil thru 22k resistor and 330 pF cap to input "3" of PLL?

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #219, on January 3rd, 2017, 06:28 PM »Last edited on January 3rd, 2017, 06:31 PM
Quote from andy on January 3rd, 2017, 01:51 PM
Matt
Is the pickup coil and resonant feedback circuit see the ringing of LC circuit on its natural frequency after pulse from the primary coil from output "4" of PLL?
By way of the driver circuit yes, that's what should happen.

The VIC & WFC is the bell.  The pulse from the driver is the hammer that strikes the bell.  The pickup coil is the microphone and the feedback circuit is the amplifier.  What the PLL hears coming from the feedback circuit tells it exactly when to strike the bell with the hammer to get it ringing as loud and strong as is possible.
Quote from andy on January 3rd, 2017, 01:51 PM
What is the task of signal going from primary coil thru 22k resistor and 330 pF cap to input "3" of PLL?
The only thing I can think of is this little low-pass filter network is what keeps the PLL focused on the fundamental frequency as I mentioned earlier.  Otherwise it is fully possible the PLL might try to lock on both the main and the reflected wave, forcing it to speed up.

What I find disconcerting is the way this bodge is connected.  The VCO Output (pin 4) is connected to the Comparator Input (pin 3) which is right where this filter terminates, so it's pushing against another output which is typically not a good thing to do.  I have no idea what kind of signal strength might try to get through that filter.  It has the potential of popping the CD4046 chip with a strong enough impulse.  The diode in parallel with the primary is a must-have component with the filter connected.

I've seen a lot of electronic circuits over the years that are not correctly designed, even though they appear to work properly.  This may be one of those quick-n-dirty solutions Stan used to avoid having new boards fabricated.  The three decade counters is also another clue Stan didn't really know for sure what to expect when he connected up the VIC card to his system.  If he would have known in advance exactly what frequency range to expect, he would have designed the VIC card to run at that range and no other.  Like us now, Stan's card was a work-in-progress.

gpssonar

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #220, on January 3rd, 2017, 06:38 PM »Last edited on January 3rd, 2017, 06:48 PM
Let's not forget Matt, some of the other ViC's went to other things like the gas processor steam resonator ect. which would require different ranges but could use the same card if it had different ranges to work with.
Sorry I haven't been able to chime in on things lately, but I been trying to keep up with you guy's by looking in as much as I can.

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #221, on January 3rd, 2017, 06:57 PM »
It's all appreciated Ronnie.  The more we learn, the more we grow.

Yes, it does make sense that Stan would build multi-purpose boards.  I'm not quite at that level yet.  I like purpose-built things still.   :-)   Probably comes from being a software engineer for so many years.



Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #224, on January 3rd, 2017, 11:46 PM »
Quote from andy on January 3rd, 2017, 09:51 PM
Thank Matt
Your help is priceless.
You're welcome andy.  Hope it does some good somewhere down the road.
Quote from ~Russ on January 3rd, 2017, 10:49 PM
Oh no it's quite expensive. :)  hehe.
Boy ain't that the truth.  Equipment, parts and lots of time reading, studying, building and getting quite frustrated when things don't seem to come together.


So Ronnie, did you say crackling like bacon...?

I was playing around tonight with my circuit and noticed I couldn't run too long without a heatsink on my voltage control regulator, so I pulled it out and mounted a nice heavy copper heatsink to it.  After that, I cranked up the juice and decided to connect my wound bobbins and core (that I know won't work, but are good enough to tinker with) so I could see how the PLL, gating and feedback all work with real parts hooked to it.  I started at 2 volts and just slowly turned up the voltage watching the scope.  Everything except the feedback was working real good.  The feedback was all over the map causing the PLL to jump around constantly trying to lock onto the screwy signals.  What the heck, I figured I'd crank up the voltage some more and just see what happens, maybe the thing would settle down with a stronger signal.  That's not at all what it did though.  At about six volts the core was starting to hiss and squeal a little; by the time I got to ten volts the core was going nuts--popping, scratching, hissing like a pressure cooker about to blow.  The scope was just a blur of signals jumping all over the place.  It really made me think about "crackling like bacon".  If that kind of chaotic signal is what's needed to get the water to pop apart, it sure looks like this circuit can do it.  Hopefully it doesn't let too many demons out--they sure sound ticked off.