Quote from HMS-776 on December 6th, 2016, 05:01 PM

Ok....So I decided to breadboard Stan's original vic drive circuit....There seem to be a few problems...Is the Vee supposed to be -12V?

Has anyone got that driver circuit to work?
It's figure 5 in the WO 92/07861 'Control and driver circuits' patent.

VDD is 5 volts
VCC is 10 volts
VEE is 12 volts
as far as i know of there is no -12volts on any of his boards and I've built them all.

Quote from HMS-776 on December 6th, 2016, 06:20 PM

Cool Thanks,

One thing I've always wondered....What's the purpose of the 3 transistors (2N2222 & two 2N3906's) before the TIP120?

     I know they drive the base. Do they also serve to keep the rise and fall times short?

That path in the cell driver circuit could be simplified and shortened. Since we don't have data on a reproduced fully working unit, I would keep it as is, until we get to a full understanding and that path could be omittted and simplified. Reverse engineering R&D procedure, in terms of redundancy.

If you don't have all of the components at your disposal, you could shorten it.

Rise and fall is not a problem.

Quote from Matt Watts on December 6th, 2016, 04:34 PM

Wet for sure.  I think a dry capacitance measurement is probably enough and just a rough estimate at that.


So Russ,

I'm modifying my Bob Volk Hybrid cell and I need some hard spacers that are about 1.5mm thick and can be secured to the face of the stainless steel plates.  Can you think of anything readily available that will work?

And another dumb question that I should already have the answer to but don't:  The resonant cavities--do they allow water fill only from the top or can water come up from the bottom?  I need to decide if I should plug these re-fill holes off or not.

Matt PCB fiberglass bord is about 1.5mm thick. Its a mess to cut but hard as crap. ~Russ

Quote from HMS-776 on December 6th, 2016, 06:20 PM

Cool Thanks,

One thing I've always wondered....What's the purpose of the 3 transistors (2N2222 & two 2N3906's) before the TIP120?

     I know they drive the base. Do they also serve to keep the rise and fall times short?

It's to help keep a DC bias in the primary.

Read back a bit in the thread. You might have missed that.

No worries. Keep going! ~Russ

Quote from ~Russ on December 6th, 2016, 07:21 PM

It's to help keep a DC bias in the primary.

Read back a bit in the thread. You might have missed that.

No worries. Keep going! ~Russ

Yes I must have.  That's why I thought it was not working correctly as I get a constant dc signal with small square waves on top of it.

Quote from ~Russ on December 6th, 2016, 07:19 PM

Matt PCB fiberglass bord is about 1.5mm thick. Its a mess to cut but hard as crap.

Good thinking Russ.  I have some uncladded vector board around here someplace.

Quote from ~Russ on December 6th, 2016, 07:21 PM

It's to help keep a DC bias in the primary.

Read back a bit in the thread. You might have missed that.

And another reason why you should not use a MOSFET driver as they like to be completely off or completely on, not somewhere in between like a bipolar transistor.

Quote from HMS-776 on December 6th, 2016, 08:08 PM

Yes I must have.  That's why I thought it was not working correctly as I get a constant dc signal with small square waves on top of it.

You should have both an offset pot and a gain pot.  That will allow you to get pretty much any kind of signal you need.

So, this DC bias?

I went back and read on it but stil have questions

Is it continually there with the pulses riding on top of it....Or is it just during the gate time?

The thing I don't understand is that dc will not transfer from coil to coil through a magnetic field...unless it's pulsed?

The only time the DC would show up is when the voltage & current through the primary coil is cutoff or reduced, collapsing the field.

The primary is DC biased on. The pulses turn off the coil.

Quote from HMS-776 on December 6th, 2016, 09:00 PM

So, this DC bias?

I went back and read on it but stil have questions

Is it continually there with the pulses riding on top of it....Or is it just during the gate time?

The thing I don't understand is that dc will not transfer from coil to coil through a magnetic field...unless it's pulsed?

The only time the DC would show up is when the voltage & current through the primary coil is cutoff or reduced, collapsing the field.

So think about it. What is an electro magnet.

And how do you keep the core magnetic?

Constant DC.

It's dealing with the idea that we want some flux in the core at all times.

Why is not clear (or I forgot already)

Matt why again do we want this. I seem to forget. Eyes going heavy.

zzzzz...

~Russ

Quote from HMS-776 on December 6th, 2016, 09:00 PM

So, this DC bias?

I went back and read on it but stil have questions

Yeap, that's where you get your DC bias upstream of the VIC.  Why we need this exactly I haven't fully figured out.  Seems to me we would want a DC bias on the cell itself; I found a much easier way to accomplish this if it's what we really want.

Quote from HMS-776 on December 6th, 2016, 09:00 PM

Is it continually there with the pulses riding on top of it....Or is it just during the gate time?

It's going to always be there regardless of whether you gate or not since this driver is at the tail-end of the pulse generation circuit.

Quote from HMS-776 on December 6th, 2016, 09:00 PM

The thing I don't understand is that dc will not transfer from coil to coil through a magnetic field...unless it's pulsed?

The only time the DC would show up is when the voltage & current through the primary coil is cutoff or reduced, collapsing the field.

Change in flux will cause induction no matter what, so any pulsing will get through, but on the secondary side I would think the DC bias would be gone.  Again, I don't fully understand Stan's method here because there is far easier way to get a DC bias at the cell.  Just place a battery with a parallel high voltage pulse capacitor in series with the cell and you'll get a DC bias that stays until the battery finally dies.  The pulse capacitor will mostly prevent the battery from getting wiped out from the fracturing process.

Matt,

Quote

Change in flux will cause induction no matter what, so any pulsing will get through, but on the secondary side I would think the DC bias would be gone.  Again, I don't fully understand Stan's method here because there is far easier way to get a DC bias at the cell.

That's what I was thinking....You can't pass dc though to the secondary side....The only way I see that being done is by pulsing the choke so it operates in continuous conduction mode???

Seems we need more clarification on this...

Quote from Matt Watts on December 6th, 2016, 04:34 PM

And another dumb question that I should already have the answer to but don't:  The resonant cavities--do they allow water fill only from the top or can water come up from the bottom?  I need to decide if I should plug these re-fill holes off or not.

The Cell's fill from the bottom.

http://open-source-energy.org/rwg42985/russ/Stan's%20WFC%2011/

apparently I'm missing a hole in those photos, but yes. water comes from the bottom, i did that back in 2009 or something,

there are bolts that go through the side wall that are for level measuring, you can see that in some of theses photos on this page. 

http://rwgresearch.com/open-projects/stanley-meyers-wfc-tec/photograpic-evadance-of-stanley-meyers-work/

~Russ

I don't see DC bias mentioned in the tech brief. Nor mention of pulses superimposed on a DC bias. This could be ruled out, unless otherwise noted.

It keeps occurring to me - I play music and a lot of this stuff - parts of the drive circuit especially - appear to be like pro audio stuff - or even stereos

1. Voltage control amplifier

2. Input gain

3. Frequency generator

4. Phase relationships

5. Transformers

7. Impedance matching

etc.

Components that are commercially available - cheap

You can buy old mixers for 50 bucks that have all these components multiplied by the number of channel strips and build your own strips eh

Also on Stan's strip he has an 'OFF SET' potentiometer - is this the adjustable L2 winding offset (variable resistor) that's meant to adjust and maintain cell polarity (DC bias?) - holding the water molecules in their aligned and charged state during pulse off?  Residual charge between L1 & L2 during pulse off? And/or phase adjustment between chokes to fine tune the cell resonance? Less offset = less current flow & more offset = higher DC bias/more current?

For what its worth…this is already understood i guess?

- b

Even so, adding a bias is simple.

Just place a pot between + and - on the circuit then the center lead to the base of the drive transistor. You have to get the right pot size and it's probably best to add a series resistor but then it gives you an adjustable bias.

I'm still confused as to how the dc gets to the secondary side of the circuit?

You can get an inductor to produce dc from a pulsed input if it's sized right.

If you got a diode after the secondary, this output would be rectified to DC. Otherwise, it's AC, even when the primary is unipolar pulsed. I see no other explanation.

If you simulate the equivalent circuit of the VIC you can get amplitude modulated AC, even with the diode in the circuit. The oscillation occurs in the chokes inductance and distributed capacitance.

I did it in multisim a while back.

Unfortunately that computer crashed and I lost the file....I remember the inductances and capacitances had to be specific values or else it would not give you amplitude modulated ac.

Russ,

Here's what I was talking about on Skype, but couldn't recall the terminology at the time.

This phenomena has me very confused as to what really happens in the VIC cores since we are using DC biased unipolar pulses.  The only thing that makes sense is what you mentioned about the relaxation time allowing the core to neutralize.  So if I were to take a WAG at this thing, I would say you find the frequency, then adjust the DC bias and/or the gate time to allow the core to partially zero itself.  Otherwise with no gating, the core likely walks into saturation on each half cycle.  Maybe this is by design and maybe it's something we have to compensate for, I don't know at this point.

With so many turns of rather small wire (relatively large resistance) on the primary, maybe the magnetizing current is substantially reduced and this doesn't become a problem.  Then again, if we have exact voltage and have calculated exact resistance, we are actually trying to walk the magnetizing current up to that fixed I = V / R level.  If we do that, then I speculate we are indeed passing through a DC bias to L2 and to some degree L1 and the secondary, though at reduced levels due to the core gap.

Here's some more information on the subject--take a deep breath and jump in:
http://www.consult-cpr.com/Additional%20Pages/Eng%20LinksB7.html

Quote from HMS-776 on December 7th, 2016, 05:41 PM

If you simulate the equivalent circuit of the VIC you can get amplitude modulated AC, even with the diode in the circuit. The oscillation occurs in the chokes inductance and distributed capacitance.

I did it in multisim a while back.

Unfortunately that computer crashed and I lost the file....I remember the inductances and capacitances had to be specific values or else it would not give you amplitude modulated ac.

this is exactly what the pics show that Ronnie posted 3 days ago. Here it´s (583/602).

Quote from Gunther Rattay on December 8th, 2016, 02:34 AM

this is exactly what the pics show that Ronnie posted 3 days ago. Here it´s (583/602).

Look at figure 7-8 in the Tech Brief....That's what I simulated years ago and when I got amplitude modulated AC across the cell.

I have searched and tried to find if I posted it anywhere but haven't found it....Maybe I'll have to build it again.

It is interesting because those are the waveforms GPS shows...and Andrija Puharich in his patent.

Quote from HMS-776 on December 8th, 2016, 05:41 AM

It is interesting because those are the waveforms GPS shows...and Andrija Puharich in his patent.

Even more interesting is this circuit appears to be a stepping stone for the final VIC.  Notice you have a hard point off the center-tapped secondary, through another diode and choke that leads to an actual zero volt reference point.  This must have been for initial tuning and once figured out, these components were removed in the final version.  Somewhere back in this thread I mentioned center-tapping the secondary and seeing this schematic is a good indication Stan knew it was necessary to have an electrical reference point to make measurements from.

My feeling the best way to center-tap the secondary is to wind two identical coils that are half the turns needed for the secondary and do it with two half sized bobbins.  This should maintain a consistent inter-winding capacitance and allow for a truly symmetrical secondary coil.  I don't think placing an actual tap on a single bobbin coil would be accurate enough.  In that image above it mentions "dual bifilar coils".  Sure this would also work, but be far more difficult to wind accurately with the turn-count needed.

Quote from Matt Watts on December 7th, 2016, 09:42 PM

Russ,

Here's what I was talking about on Skype, but couldn't recall the terminology at the time.

This phenomena has me very confused as to what really happens in the VIC cores since we are using DC biased unipolar pulses.  The only thing that makes sense is what you mentioned about the relaxation time allowing the core to neutralize.  So if I were to take a WAG at this thing, I would say you find the frequency, then adjust the DC bias and/or the gate time to allow the core to partially zero itself.  Otherwise with no gating, the core likely walks into saturation on each half cycle.  Maybe this is by design and maybe it's something we have to compensate for, I don't know at this point.

With so many turns of rather small wire (relatively large resistance) on the primary, maybe the magnetizing current is substantially reduced and this doesn't become a problem.  Then again, if we have exact voltage and have calculated exact resistance, we are actually trying to walk the magnetizing current up to that fixed I = V / R level.  If we do that, then I speculate we are indeed passing through a DC bias to L2 and to some degree L1 and the secondary, though at reduced levels due to the core gap.

Here's some more information on the subject--take a deep breath and jump in:
http://www.consult-cpr.com/Additional%20Pages/Eng%20LinksB7.html

again something new to test. but it seems like the right thing to me. now I'm starting to feel good about this testing phase that ill enter soon enough. if nothing else we will for sure have a lot of questions to get answers for to help our understanding.


~Russ

from that like you provided matt,

"Unbalanced drive volt-seconds causes the flux walking and therefore any resistance in series with the transformer primary helps to limit this process. The I•R voltage drop will be unbalanced in the opposite direction to that of the drive source. This effect can be helped further by putting a gap in the transformer core to lay the loop over and increase the I•R drop at a given gauss level. Remember, the core will continue walking until the applied volt-seconds (downstream of any I•R drop) is balanced."

I think you got it Russ and it makes me wonder about center-tapping the primary and intentionally driving it with a asymmetric push/pull driver.  If this flux walking effect is something we actually want, then using a push/pull would be the more precise/controllable way to achieve it.  I'm just not sure if Stan wanted this effect intentionally or if he instead discovered it and applied an approach (core gap) to compensate for it.

The thing to keep in mind is that Stan didn't have access to top-class push/pull driver chips and finding a pair of matched transistors without using a bipolar power supply would have been a true PITA.  We always need to keep the KISS principal in context at the time when the solution was developed.  He did things the easy way at the time and if we are able to find out exactly what it is he was attempting to accomplish, there may be far easier and more precise ways to do the same thing today.