Hello everybody,

I started a thread to discuss the over all HHO Cell design in different variations: Cell Design, Discussion, suggestion box, Creation of a Designguide.

Lynx has proposed to ask a question about the insulation of the pipes here aswell:

Quote from Lynx on November 25th, 2016, 04:36 PM

Quote from Optimus on November 25th, 2016, 11:52 AM

Hello Lynx,

thank you for the welcome. I have met your suggestion and read the whole thread and I hope that gpssonar is also so experienced in the cell design as with the VIC. Hopefully he can help with the WFC aswell.
Furthermore I've edit my first thread a little bit. :)
One question is spinning in my mind after reading through the last month:
If the whole fracturing process is caused by the electrical field and not by the flow of electricity (bubbles appear in the middle), why not coat the complete steel parts, except of a small area to provide the needed amp leakage to start the process?

~Optimus~

Probably because you would want to have uniform polarization of the water molecules all throughout the cell as opposed to having it confined to a limited little area in the cell, though you should really ask this very question in gpssonar's thread instead ;-)

On this topic I also found an interesting video: Video

~Optimus~

Oh man,I would pay to see one of Ronnies board presentations.Did someone recorded them?

Optimums welcome to learning hell if you survive you will talk

Lol

Anything significant in the Skype conference not discussed in this thread?

Matt , can you tell us more?

Quote from haxar on November 27th, 2016, 07:47 PM

Anything significant in the Skype conference not discussed in this thread?

Nope

Quote from andy on November 28th, 2016, 02:13 AM

Matt , can you tell us more?

I think Matt has also given as much as he understands right now.

i have one project i have to complete with in the next month ( its paying the bills)  then ill be able to start testing theses things on the bench. 

in the mean time I'm still racking my brain around the things we have been thought, and i have gotten a new way of looking at things. 

Thanks to Ronnie and Matt, will get there.

Ronnie,

if you see your self having more time in the future ( you have been busy) ill keep going with my " checking my understanding"

i have more on the list.

~Russ

Things are starting to slow down at work alittle now. I went two days last week without getting called back in. I'll have more time once everything settles In for the heating season.

We will get back at it in a day or two.

Quote from ~Russ on November 28th, 2016, 09:06 AM

I think Matt has also given as much as he understands right now.

Pretty much, with just one little caveat that I never heard Ronnie mention as yet...

Y'all recall the formula as Stan presented it in his Tech Brief correct?

Those R's and Z's are different for a reason IMHO.

The R's are fixed regardless of the environment they are subjected to; the Z's are not.  They can (and will) deviate dependent upon frequency, phasing and wave reflection.  This is the reason, again IMHO, the VIC is designed as it is--too make the formula remain balanced through its entire operating range, i.e. through all the stages required to fracture water and make it a usable fuel gas.  Look at Eq. 8 carefully.  You will notice if the chokes are not designed properly, the characteristic impedance will drift radically away from the DC resistance.  It's this DC resistance we calculated for way back in this thread that we are trying to stick to, but if the chokes drift, the formula is a bust.

Quote from Matt Watts on November 28th, 2016, 05:36 PM

It's this DC resistance we calculated for way back in this thread that we are trying to stick to, but if the chokes drift, the formula is a bust.

Trial and error.

Quote

Under VIC Resistance (Tech Brief), Stan claims: The value of the Inductor (C), the value of the capacitor (ER), and the pulse-frequency of the voltage being applied across the LC circuit, determines the impedance of the LC circuit.

LC circuit Impedance = C + ER + voltage pulse-frequency;

Quote from haxar on November 28th, 2016, 09:03 PM

Trial and error.

That's one way yes.

Throwing out my opinion here some more...

It is my belief there is no such thing as resistance (a fixed value); everything is impedance.  This is what is really happening in an electronic component known as a resistor.  It is also what is happening in a mechanical device known as a critical orifice.  We perceive it as fixed because it does not change over a wide operating frequency, but it really functions internally as an impedance device, just as John Shive demonstrated in his wave machine.

This brings me back to the VIC.  My gut feeling is that Stan was looking for high inductance chokes/coils that were as close to air-cores as he could get while still having some sort of a core that would direct the magnetic field, i.e. provide flux coupling.  This coupling is as tight as possible between the primary (exciter) and L2, while being loosely coupled between the primary and the other two coils.  Tight coupling is also needed between the secondary and L1 to keep the mutual inductance as high as possible.  Somehow (still thinking about it) this design creates a situation that optimizes the usable range of the VIC so that it can track the changing dielectric property of water from 80 all the way down to 4.  Nothing else can do this over that full range.

What I'm getting at is that Stan could see the equation needed and found a way to keep it balanced over the range he needed to manipulate the water molecule and its wide dielectric property range.  Frequency is only part of this control mechanism; the water itself is the other.  The idea though is to use components that act as nearly fixed values (resistors).  By doing this, you don't create holes in the equation--meaning the formula stays operable through the whole range from 80 down to 4.  If your design has any dead spots where the impedance drastically changes, you can't push the water through all of its stages.  You'll get stuck and never produce any gas.

Quote from Matt Watts on November 29th, 2016, 09:37 AM

This brings me back to the VIC.  My gut feeling is that Stan was looking for high inductance chokes/coils that were as close to air-cores as he could get while still having some sort of a core that would direct the magnetic field, i.e. provide flux coupling.

If you "increase the turns on the secondary and [both] chokes, more voltage can perform work." @ 15m57s

youtube.com/watch?v=iaB5ME8kFGU&t=15m57s

Quote from Matt Watts on November 29th, 2016, 09:37 AM

What I'm getting at is that Stan could see the equation needed and found a way to keep it balanced over the range he needed to manipulate the water molecule and its wide dielectric property range.  Frequency is only part of this control mechanism; the water itself is the other.  The idea though is to use components that act as nearly fixed values (resistors).  By doing this, you don't create holes in the equation--meaning the formula stays operable through the whole range from 80 down to 4.  If your design has any dead spots where the impedance drastically changes, you can't push the water through all of its stages.  You'll get stuck and never produce any gas.

With no or nil turns, no work can perform.

13:23   (180 degrees out of phase)

I started tuning tonight....As usual it's monanteous and disappointing.

Even when I have everything setup correctly I still wonder if hitting resonance is possible?

I found a couple more interesting charts pertaining to the WFC.  Looks like plate cells will indeed work, just not as well.  More important is the spacing between the plates.

So Mr.Ronnie, if you are saying 180 degrees out of phase that is what a torid transformer allows is 180 degrees is it not? So would that be an applications to apply?  Or build into this system? Just curious. Because from what little i understand the torid transformer coil does provide 180.

https://youtu.be/iaB5ME8kFGU?t=14


13:25

"In order to do this it became very obvious, that all we had to do, was to expose the water molecules to opposite electrical voltage fields and shut of the flow of amps."

The work will be done by the electrical field, not by the amps.

So again: Why not coat the pipes to stop the flow of amps altogether?

To me it seems like, the biggest problem here is, that the WFC doesn't act like a capacitor in the LC circuit, because of the leakage amps. But if we stop the leakage amps by coating the pipes, shouldn't it be much easier to bring the LC to a swinging stage?

~Optimus~

i hope you guys realize that your pulse is actually comprised of many different frequencies, and that you need to characterize all of your coils over a wide range of frequencies, before and after hysteric distortion.... a full spatial fourier decomposition is required.... this will give you your pulse spectrum.... you will need to determine the spectral response at each individual coil.... you will also need to determine the properties of the water gap, considering it is a non-linear differential capacitance, this makes it respond uniquely to different input spectra, this is whats known as parametric resonance....

you guys man... HMS you have to understand stan was a genius that spent his whole life working in advanced electromagnetics research.... he spent 20 years developming this tech, he said plainly in a wfc memo it would cost 400 mil to develop in industry without him... if you think you can throw some stuff togethor and hope it works than you are beyond mistaken about the nature of this stuff....

optimus has been here for like a week and he already knows how it works... isent that amazing?

If people want to coat the cells with something go for it. While your at it throw away the choke coils they want be needed. Then you can just use a pulsing circuit with a car coil for your static voltage. See where that gets ya! People say they get frustrated at me. It frustrates me when people takes Stan's work and flips it on it head. No wonder people can't get this to work. I fell like it is a waste of time to even proceed. I mean really haven't we all been through coating tubs over and over. Someone please show me where Stan coated his tubes. If it can't be shown, then it has no business being in this thread. If people want to skin the cat a different way than Stan's way, then a thread can be created to skin the cat your way.

I've said it in my other thread. It's all about stripping electrons form the water molecule. The water molecule will not fall apart unless you equal the force that holds it together. (Period)

Quote from reverandkilljoy on November 30th, 2016, 03:42 AM

i hope you guys realize that your pulse is actually comprised of many different frequencies, and that you need to characterize all of your coils over a wide range of frequencies, before and after hysteric distortion.... a full spatial fourier decomposition is required.... this will give you your pulse spectrum.... you will need to determine the spectral response at each individual coil.... you will also need to determine the properties of the water gap, considering it is a non-linear differential capacitance, this makes it respond uniquely to different input spectra, this is whats known as parametric resonance....

you guys man... HMS you have to understand stan was a genius that spent his whole life working in advanced electromagnetics research.... he spent 20 years developming this tech, he said plainly in a wfc memo it would cost 400 mil to develop in industry without him... if you think you can throw some stuff togethor and hope it works than you are beyond mistaken about the nature of this stuff....

optimus has been here for like a week and he already knows how it works... isent that amazing?

Good points!
We know they are comprised of multiple frequencies through Fourier analysis of the square wave used. 

Nothing I have has been 'thrown' together...It's the result of years of work. I can design a VIC as I know all the requirements and calculations involved. My biggest problems have been in my driving circuit...which I think I recently figured out.

I think though...that even when you have everything correct tuning the circuit is a whole new challenge.

Ronnie, can you give us any advice on tuning and finding resonance?

I just did in my last post. You can under charge the water molecule and you want have enough attracting force to strip electrons, you can have to much force and you end up with a repelling force. That's what Stan means by tuning into the properties of water. Watch this video and you may get something out of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pd9HY8iLiCA&t=1286s