"Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"

~Russ

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #850, on December 2nd, 2016, 11:04 PM »
Quote from HMS-776 on December 2nd, 2016, 09:50 PM
Ronnie, can you verify if the resonant frequency changes when the applied voltage to the primary coil changes?
yes it dose, that's why Ronnie specified 2 things,

1. tuning with a dry cell first. ( removing a lot of variables) if your in the ball park you should smell ozone
2. tuning in 1-2v increments.



also, for fun, if you seem to find a resonance around 28hz, try adding a 7th harmonic frequency on that single  ... or any higher level harmonic.

testing will resume once i get this other project off my plate ( its paying the bills)

~Russ

BillB

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #851, on December 3rd, 2016, 01:24 AM »Last edited on December 3rd, 2016, 02:16 AM
Hello Guys - the very early pages of Stan Meyer's Water Fuel Cell Technical Brief (section 1) defines a lot of basic parameters of the 'pulse forming network'.  Page 1-2 indicates 'The value of the Inductor, the value of the capacitor (ER), and the pulse frequency of the voltage being applied across the LC circuit determines the impedance of the LC circuit.

The impedance of an inductor and a capacitor in series, Z series is given by

Z series = (Xc - Xl)

Where Xc = 1 over 2 pye divided by LC - and - Xl = 2 pye multiplied by fl

When i read that about a year ago, it seemed clear to me i have to build the cell first, measure the capacitance (dry and wet - at least), and then build my VIC impedance to match the capacitance of the cell.  Because i can measure the resistance in a winding by the wire length, but how do you measure the capacitance of the cell until you actually assemble the cell?

I don't know if this is relevant to all of Ronnie's work and teaching here - but it just seems to me building the cell first gives us constants with which we can complete the formulas for the inductor circuits - we then have some constants in the formula - primary voltage/amperage/frequency variables - and cell capacitance.  If the cell capacitance is unknown - how do we match the impedance?

I hope i'm not wasting you guys time with these posts… :o/

I admit - i just have not had time to read all the good info on this sight.  I will keep reading...

Peace - b

Matt Watts

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #852, on December 3rd, 2016, 03:01 AM »Last edited on December 3rd, 2016, 03:37 AM
Quote from BillB on December 3rd, 2016, 01:24 AM
When i read that about a year ago, it seemed clear to me i have to build the cell first, measure the capacitance (dry and wet - at least), and then build my VIC impedance to match the capacitance of the cell.  Because i can measure the resistance in a winding by the wire length, but how do you measure the capacitance of the cell until you actually assemble the cell?

I don't know if this is relevant to all of Ronnie's work and teaching here - but it just seems to me building the cell first gives us constants with which we can complete the formulas for the inductor circuits - we then have some constants in the formula - primary voltage/amperage/frequency variables - and cell capacitance.  If the cell capacitance is unknown - how do we match the impedance?
You can always go from physical dimensions of the cell(s), to capacitance this way:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capcyl.html#c1

The tricky part is considering this "capacitor" is also a wave guide, but at what frequency is it trying to guide?  The dielectric of which, determines the velocity factor.  And we know the dielectric can change from 80 clear down to about 4.  So with a fixed size "capacitor" that has a variable dielectric, what value do you want to shoot for?  Then how many of these cells do you want to put together in series?

Now suppose you have all the above figured out and you're ready to mate a pair of inductors to it.  Again, what resonant frequency do you want to shoot for?  Maybe a harmonic or maybe the fundamental?

And lastly, how does this all fit in with Coulombs Law?  Because if you recall Ronnie's statement, if you don't comprehend Coulombs Law, there's no point in going any further.

Hit a wall yet?

This is why a strategy is needed.  We need a fundamental principal in effect that guides all the rest of our decisions in building a VIC & WFC.  My current thinking is to look at the VIC as a low-pass filter that allows charge to flow through it and get to the WFC in the correct proportions.  And as a filter, it stops most of the current flow, but not all of it.  We need a little for the initial 1.23 volt per cell charge and polarization process.  This filter also redirects any reflections coming back from the WFC, puts them in-phase and resends them back to the WFC to create the resonant-rise condition.  This is how I look at the VIC.  It may be completely wrong, but until I hear the correct & complete method of operation that I can actually understand, I'll stick with it.

My feeling is that the water molecules, the electrons and all that deep stuff must be manipulated just a certain way.  You can't just go hitting it with any ol' signal and expect results.  If you do, the water will simply reject the signal and send it right back to you, potentially burning up your coils.  A properly designed and built system puts just what you need at just the right time.  It's an analog computer built specifically to split water.  Simple as that.  And being an analog computer, it can respond instantaneously via potential and at the speed of light via kinetic energy.  So gigahertz signals and terahertz charge potentials between the VIC & WFC are entirely possible.  Keep in mind you are trying to control the electron clouds around billions of water molecules.  How fast do you really think you need to be?

Yeah, pretty fast.




HMS-776

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #853, on December 3rd, 2016, 04:32 AM »Last edited on December 3rd, 2016, 09:52 AM
Matt,

I think your the only person I have seen mention the velocity factor. Glad someone else has looked that deep (I'm sure Ronnie has also).

As you probably already know, the dielectric of the water reduces the velocity of the em wave by a factor of 8.89 (if I remember correctly). I did this math a while back and noticed there may be a connection between the velocity factor and the total length of the vic circuit- close to 1/4 wavelength but since it was the length of all coils I'm not sure if it's contributing or not. 




adys15

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #854, on December 3rd, 2016, 11:27 AM »
Bill use that for measuring your cells...measuring weaves and vectors will get you in the woods..
http://hz00.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/957/117/232/1232117957_787.jpg?size=36001&height=500&width=700&hash=215f4e1ba5c7d34522c37f81ff4f6419

One cell of mine measures 18pF...Come on guys show your cells and measure them for real not make theories about how would it measure
Post real numbers not fairytales...Besides Russ no one showed what their measures empty...when posting real numbers  then we can compare our setups and find mistakes...for example i was rambling some time ago about why my primary  had 3.2mH(air core) with the same wire and wire lenght Stan had and the same meter Fifth Colum uses for measuring...no one answered...to find this out i had to buy another 100$ meter + 150$ 29 gauge wire from US mine was 28 gauge to find out that was the same...Flack but my salary is 200$...so....truly helpfull this open source forum



Ris

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #856, on December 3rd, 2016, 12:12 PM »
Quote from adys15 on December 3rd, 2016, 11:27 AM
Bill use that for measuring your cells...measuring weaves and vectors will get you in the woods..
http://hz00.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/957/117/232/1232117957_787.jpg?size=36001&height=500&width=700&hash=215f4e1ba5c7d34522c37f81ff4f6419

One cell of mine measures 18pF...Come on guys show your cells and measure them for real not make theories about how would it measure
Post real numbers not fairytales...Besides Russ no one showed what their measures empty...when posting real numbers  then we can compare our setups and find mistakes...for example i was rambling some time ago about why my primary  had 3.2mH(air core) with the same wire and wire lenght Stan had and the same meter Fifth Colum uses for measuring...no one answered...to find this out i had to buy another 100$ meter + 150$ 29 gauge wire from US mine was 28 gauge to find out that was the same...Flack but my salary is 200$...so....truly helpfull this open source forum
My salary is $ 400   
so what you do not understand related to induction



HMS-776

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #859, on December 3rd, 2016, 03:52 PM »Last edited on December 3rd, 2016, 05:02 PM
I have an insulated 6 cell unit similar to Ronnie's.

My cell measures around 180-190pF with distilled water.

Russ,
This is where I run into problems. Do the math and you find out my cell dry is around 2.1-2.3pF. It measures 2.11pF.

At 2.1pF and with a 1.262H choke resonance is 97 kHz. At that frequency the reactance is 769k ohms.. 
Say you hit resonance, if the voltage across the secondary coil were 2V we know the resistance is around 220 ohms.  This gives us 9mA current. 9mA @ 769k ohms will produce 6700v.
The problem here is the coil has about a 1:7 turns ratio so the primary coil would have to be pulsed at 289mV.....

My frequency generator cannot produce a decent square wave at those frequencies and my drive circuit does not work well at amplitudes that low.....I need to find something else with similar capacitance as my cell when it's filled with water?

Update: I tried a fixed capacitor which has 390pF. Still unable to hit resonance.....very frustrating....

Something is wrong somewhere in my circuit or vic???
VIC values:
Primary 9.9 ohms. 44.3mH
Sec 69.2 ohms.  1.205H
L1   73.2 ohms.  1.168H
L2   67.2 ohms.    1.054H


Might be time to give up for a few months.


Matt Watts

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #861, on December 4th, 2016, 09:08 AM »
Quote from HMS-776 on December 3rd, 2016, 03:52 PM
Update: I tried a fixed capacitor which has 390pF. Still unable to hit resonance.....very frustrating....

Something is wrong somewhere in my circuit or vic???
VIC values:
Primary 9.9 ohms. 44.3mH
Sec 69.2 ohms.  1.205H
L1   73.2 ohms.  1.168H
L2   67.2 ohms.    1.054H
If you shunt the diode, do you still see a lack of resonance?

HMS-776

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #862, on December 4th, 2016, 09:51 AM »
Your right....
I took some time away from it and thought about what might be going wrong.  I went back and measured everything again and did the calculations. Turns out I need to make a few adjustments to my coils and drive circuit.


~Russ

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #864, on December 4th, 2016, 09:25 PM »
Quote from HMS-776 on December 3rd, 2016, 03:52 PM
I have an insulated 6 cell unit similar to Ronnie's.

My cell measures around 180-190pF with distilled water.

Russ,
This is where I run into problems. Do the math and you find out my cell dry is around 2.1-2.3pF. It measures 2.11pF.

At 2.1pF and with a 1.262H choke resonance is 97 kHz. At that frequency the reactance is 769k ohms.. 
Say you hit resonance, if the voltage across the secondary coil were 2V we know the resistance is around 220 ohms.  This gives us 9mA current. 9mA @ 769k ohms will produce 6700v.
The problem here is the coil has about a 1:7 turns ratio so the primary coil would have to be pulsed at 289mV.....

My frequency generator cannot produce a decent square wave at those frequencies and my drive circuit does not work well at amplitudes that low.....I need to find something else with similar capacitance as my cell when it's filled with water?

Update: I tried a fixed capacitor which has 390pF. Still unable to hit resonance.....very frustrating....

Something is wrong somewhere in my circuit or vic???
VIC values:
Primary 9.9 ohms. 44.3mH
Sec 69.2 ohms.  1.205H
L1   73.2 ohms.  1.168H
L2   67.2 ohms.    1.054H


Might be time to give up for a few months.
Just something to think about. there WILL be higher frequency with in that cell. so its hard to say weather or not a low F input will be some harmonic of the resonant F that might be a lot higher.

i see that you updated your findings, any chance you can tell us what was " wrong" that you fund?

we can keep an eye on it for our own set up too?

~Russ

Gunther Rattay

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #865, on December 5th, 2016, 04:05 AM »Last edited on December 5th, 2016, 04:19 AM
I think those posts belong here and not to Steven Meyer thread:
Quote from gpssonar on December 4th, 2016, 09:56 AM
Stan never hide it Matt. It's in these drawings and others as well.
http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2807.msg41174#msg41174
Quote from Gunther Rattay on December 5th, 2016, 03:48 AM
so referencing the last pics Ronnie posted now it´s absolutely clear that the voltage diagram over the cell shows an AC waveform!

And as a consequence step charging of an AC waveform means that positive and negative amplitude get higher from AC pulse to AC pulse ... :) ... and ... diode doesn´t suppress that AC oscillation ;) AHA!

what does that mean for the RLC-circuit and the water???

oscillation dynamics change from pulse to pulse - either water resistance changes due to voltage/current dynamics or RLC electrical values change due to oscillation dynamics.

one thing is clear: water can´t store voltage potential/charge from pulse to pulse (and increase it from there) if it gets down to zero line and below into the negative ... :roll:
http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2807.msg41181#msg41181

Gunther Rattay

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #866, on December 5th, 2016, 04:13 AM »Last edited on December 5th, 2016, 04:28 AM
as a further logical consequence particle oscillation as meyer describes makes so much sense forcing the dipoles to continuously move back and forth between the electrodes distrubing/disrupting their natural bond by moving around the dipoles all time "tearing them apart" by influencing natural bonding timing dynamics for the single molecule.

gpssonar

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #867, on December 5th, 2016, 04:17 AM »Last edited on December 5th, 2016, 04:19 AM
Thanks Gunther, I'll pull the drawing into this thread as well this afternoon. For now it's off to work again.

Webmug

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #868, on December 5th, 2016, 04:59 AM »
Quote from Gunther Rattay on December 5th, 2016, 04:05 AM
so referencing the last pics Ronnie posted now it´s absolutely clear that the voltage diagram over the cell shows an AC waveform!

And as a consequence step charging of an AC waveform means that positive and negative amplitude get higher from AC pulse to AC pulse ... :) ... and ... diode doesn´t suppress that AC oscillation ;) AHA!

what does that mean for the RLC-circuit and the water???

oscillation dynamics change from pulse to pulse - either water resistance changes due to voltage/current dynamics or RLC electrical values change due to oscillation dynamics.

one thing is clear: water can´t store voltage potential/charge from pulse to pulse (and increase it from there) if it gets down to zero line and below into the negative ... :roll:
@Gunther,

"Alternating current (AC), is an electric current which periodically reverses direction, whereas direct current (DC, also dc) flows only in one direction."

What you wrote about AC isn't correctly formulated, I think you mean the "pulsating" or "Unipolar" waveform instead.


HMS-776

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #869, on December 5th, 2016, 05:17 AM »Last edited on December 5th, 2016, 05:23 AM
Russ,

I found my drive circuit was going below 0V.
Also, I'm not sure but I think my choke values were not right so I made some adjustments to the coils inductance values.

Gunther,
In one of Stans last news releases he explains particle oscillation as if it were the key to the whole process. We know accelerating charged particles produce em radiation....I have done a lot of reading on electric double layer capacitors....In some cases they exhibit oscillation and em radiation....interesting stuff.

HHO-Dan

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #870, on December 5th, 2016, 06:48 AM »
My two cents...
GPS has talked about impedance matching for weeks.....
I have to wonder if we are trying to get standing waves to stand on the cell with a 2-1 ratio
and a DC offset.

Note: I am rong most of the time...some day I will be correct.


Gunther Rattay

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #872, on December 5th, 2016, 11:03 AM »
Quote from Webmug on December 5th, 2016, 04:59 AM
@Gunther,

"Alternating current (AC), is an electric current which periodically reverses direction, whereas direct current (DC, also dc) flows only in one direction."

What you wrote about AC isn't correctly formulated, I think you mean the "pulsating" or "Unipolar" waveform instead.
No, what I mean is the alternating waveform as Stan shows in the pics Ronnie posted.

~Russ

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #873, on December 5th, 2016, 11:22 AM »
Quote from HMS-776 on December 5th, 2016, 05:17 AM
Russ,

I found my drive circuit was going below 0V.
Also, I'm not sure but I think my choke values were not right so I made some adjustments to the coils inductance values.
ah yes, ok, this is where the original driver circuit might help.

thanks for the info!

~Russ

~Russ

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #874, on December 5th, 2016, 11:45 AM »
well lets get back to "checking my understanding"

Ronnie, This is directed to you, got some more Q and A , if you see ANYTHING you disagree with please state so.
If some of this is a repeat, just answer it any way. please answer yes/no for each number. or reword it to make scene to you. 


1. The chokes are indeed amp restriction devices, using the magnetic flux, However Because the Capacitor is "variable" ( due to the gas bubbles being formed) the "bandwidth cut off" of the resonant frequency is out side the parameters needed to achieve resonance between L1,L2 and the "cap" .
But ONLY when in the "dead short" condition is there.

2. The change in capacitance/resistance will allow the resonant action to take place. its important to note that the chokes do not enter resonance until enough gas is generated to change the capacitance / bandwidth cut off to do so, this is automatic and by design.
   (this must be part of your design. parameters)
   
3. This is why we need to tune the system with dry cell's, This is how we check the resonance of the system.

4. Resonance only happens when we reach that sweet spot after we start making gas ( after the start the polarization process with our amp leakage)  and if the bandwidth cut off allows to go in to resonance.

5. Then things change when in resonance mode( The phase angle changes between current and voltage when things change in to resonance mode.)


6.  This is a Question: we can change the phase angle changes between current and voltage by having an imbalance of turns between L1 and L2???

more after this,

~Russ

PS, take your time