"Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"


~Russ

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #752, on November 18th, 2016, 09:24 AM »Last edited on November 18th, 2016, 09:29 AM
Quote from Matt Watts on November 17th, 2016, 11:55 PM
You're right, I had to do some more playing with this thing.


I hooked-up a decent driver and put about 5 volts at 1 amp to it.  It started making a few real tiny bubbles in a little single cell I had laying around is all.  No matching or anything done yet, just point and shoot and see what sticks.

Pretty clear to me the charge ratio is well out of whack, but at least it's all together doing some semblance of a Stan Meyer VIC.

I'll scratch my head for a while and see if I can think of what the proper adjustment(s) should be...
Matt, i think its important that you try to tune the system with a value of resistance/capacitance  where the cell is, if you try ti with a dry cell ( as Ronnie states) it might work... just using the air resistance. however i have a feeling that if your making lots of gas the resistance will not change as much as you think, at least i feel it will not get as high as a cell with no water. but the charges play a lot of interesting rolls and things we dont understand.

i would suggest you use a Variable cap and a Potentiometer both in the ranges that the WFC will be,

for testing it might be helpful, I'm not sure. maybe we should just use a cell. but it will reveal some new results to think about...

oh by the way that charge ratio with a cap only Vs the cell, i think you will not see those ratios get back to 2:1 until you really start making gas. and even then i have a feeling there will be a lot of resistance, (more than an air cell) but at that point you tune it in... thats why the step tuning process is so important WITH THE CELL connected.

at least you seen a few bubbles. thats already good news. This proves that if you tune the cell to a 2:1 with a cap or dry cell, you have enough offset potential to start even a little electrolytes. ( your sending in AC so AC dont make gas) so thats a step in the right direction if you ask me...

you might not be able to measure the 2:1 now with the "dead short" but its there, those bubbles prove it. but its a resistor... so think how you measure that...

oh what traces are what on your scope there?

~Russ 

Matt Watts

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #753, on November 18th, 2016, 12:27 PM »
Quote from ~Russ on November 18th, 2016, 09:24 AM
at least you seen a few bubbles. thats already good news. This proves that if you tune the cell to a 2:1 with a cap or dry cell, you have enough offset potential to start even a little electrolytes. ( your sending in AC so AC dont make gas) so thats a step in the right direction if you ask me...
Yes, I can get a little bit of current to the cell even with the step-up and not burn anything up, so that is encouraging.
Quote from ~Russ on November 18th, 2016, 09:24 AM
you might not be able to measure the 2:1 now with the "dead short" but its there, those bubbles prove it. but its a resistor... so think how you measure that...

oh what traces are what on your scope there?
Yellow is B+ to reference; blue is B- to reference; purple is math difference between the two.

The B- trace is AC since you can see on the schematic there is no rectifier diode on that side.  B+ has the rectifier diode and is mostly DC--offset from zero.  The math trace is clearly all DC--that is what the cell is actually seeing.

What I may do next is connect a current probe just to get a feel for how much current is hitting the cell, then check the cell resistance.  I'm curious to know if it is the cell over-powering the VIC or the VIC over-powering the cell.

I really don't dare run things with the cell open (no water) at this time using the driver and only 10x probes--pretty sure the voltages will shoot up too high to deal with.  Maybe if I keep the power supply way low around 2 volts I'd be okay for quick peek.






adys15

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #758, on November 19th, 2016, 01:08 AM »
Ronnie what did you use on J input analog voltage?,i think you used the digital means board but we dont have that..did you know a cheaper way?i used a pot.but the voltage level did go only 9.45v

gpssonar

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #759, on November 19th, 2016, 02:24 AM »Last edited on November 19th, 2016, 02:26 AM
Adys15 Stan's variable voltage going to J is only around 10 or 11 volts, 9.45 volts will work just fine.

Matt Watts

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #760, on November 19th, 2016, 03:37 AM »
Quote from vortex on November 17th, 2016, 12:59 PM
is it possible to use high dielectric transformer oil........... :D
So put the whole VIC inside a oil bath??
I wouldn't think this is necessary unless you can't find any wire with fairly high-grade insulation, but...

You gave me a great idea for finding the capacitance of a multi-plate cell.   Transformer oil would provide an excellent dielectric to fill a cell with and get some accurate readings when you're not sure of the exact surface area or spacing.  Looks like the dielectric constant is 2.2.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/relative-permittivity-d_1660.html

mercury101

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #761, on November 19th, 2016, 06:57 PM »
Hmm. But how would you get all the residue out of your cell afterwards? If you know the value of water at a certan temperature and purity the clean up would be nonexistant. That is why i thought that chart i could not load but you did for me would allow you to further nail down the parameters you need. Because it is from 0 c to 100 c temperature range.

Or are you questioning its accuracy value wise and that is why you prefer the transformer oil?

Just curious
Quote from Matt Watts on November 19th, 2016, 03:37 AM
I wouldn't think this is necessary unless you can't find any wire with fairly high-grade insulation, but...

You gave me a great idea for finding the capacitance of a multi-plate cell.   Transformer oil would provide an excellent dielectric to fill a cell with and get some accurate readings when you're not sure of the exact surface area or spacing.  Looks like the dielectric constant is 2.2.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/relative-permittivity-d_1660.html

newguy

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #762, on November 19th, 2016, 07:23 PM »Last edited on November 20th, 2016, 12:24 AM
Quote from Matt Watts on November 19th, 2016, 03:37 AM
I wouldn't think this is necessary unless you can't find any wire with fairly high-grade insulation, but...

You gave me a great idea for finding the capacitance of a multi-plate cell.   Transformer oil would provide an excellent dielectric to fill a cell with and get some accurate readings when you're not sure of the exact surface area or spacing.  Looks like the dielectric constant is 2.2.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/relative-permittivity-d_1660.html
The dielectric constant of snow in the RF band may be more practical  :)  Maybe even a frozen cell with ice would be more in the ballpark at least for a period of time, phase or level of the process.
Makes me curious how even dry ice pressurized in a cell would simulate a level of it.
Endless ideas and points to make...even for instance a flushing cell may simulate to having ozone bubble up through the water.....ideas ideas ideas :0)


" The dielectric constant of a water molecule is dominated by the reorientation of the molecule due to its large dipole moment. H2O is anisotropic and, because it crystallizes in a hexagonal system, it is considered uniaxial.....  "

                                                  " Go ahead and put snow in there"

mercury101

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #763, on November 20th, 2016, 09:58 AM »
Lol if anyone is worried about coil integrity of insulation. Once you finalize the coil wraps, just get glyptol and either spray layers or dip coil and bake it with multiple cotes. It will help restrain the coil from moving much like they do in electric motor shops. Plus it adds more insulative quality.

Mr. Ronnie or anyone else out there. What is the effect on the coil if an external wrap of aluminum is placed around the coil? Will it affect the flux lines on coil in a more dense way? Does it change the timing of the collaps of the field?  I have not wound any yet to try and see effect. Just hypothesizing for now. I have foil tape that is does not hold lines of flux like iron does but it does relate to lenze laws.

mercury101

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #764, on November 20th, 2016, 10:01 AM »
Ozone is easy enough to produce. Just filter air through a dessicant first there was one of stans pattents that hinted to ozone. I cant find the patent i was looking at.

Merc
Quote from newguy on November 19th, 2016, 07:23 PM
The dielectric constant of snow in the RF band may be more practical  :)  Maybe even a frozen cell with ice would be more in the ballpark at least for a period of time, phase or level of the process.
Makes me curious how even dry ice pressurized in a cell would simulate a level of it.
Endless ideas and points to make...even for instance a flushing cell may simulate to having ozone bubble up through the water.....ideas ideas ideas :0)


" The dielectric constant of a water molecule is dominated by the reorientation of the molecule due to its large dipole moment. H2O is anisotropic and, because it crystallizes in a hexagonal system, it is considered uniaxial.....  "

                                                  " Go ahead and put snow in there"

andy

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #765, on November 20th, 2016, 03:33 PM »
Quote from gpssonar on November 11th, 2016, 11:52 AM
That is 100% correct Russ

The diode on the primary gives it a flywheel during the off time to suppress voltage spikes getting back into the driving circuit.

The core material must meet or exceed the required frequency your going to be using without saturating the core material. It also needs to be able to raise the inductance into the range needed for the LC circuit.
 
The other two I will have to get some material together to talk about them. If you have something together already you can discuss them and I will weigh in on it if I need to.
Ronnie
Can you continue the other two question,  maybe you get some material together to talk about them?
thank
andy

gpssonar

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #766, on November 20th, 2016, 05:48 PM »Last edited on November 20th, 2016, 07:46 PM
@andy, There are things that people still needs to know about the polarization process before we move into the other areas of the process. This is a two part process.
Most people don't know the L1 choke, with Direct Current the coil has no inductive reactance.
There is a reason there is an offset voltage. It's to get the process started and never let it fall below that voltage level. If it falls below that level you will lose the polarization process. So in other words as soon as you turn the unit on, it starts with a DC offset voltage and the process starts. Again the L1 choke coil has no inductive reactance with Direct Current. It's an RC circuit well before it becomes an LC circuit.

Matt Watts

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #767, on November 20th, 2016, 09:54 PM »
Quote from gpssonar on November 20th, 2016, 05:48 PM
It's an RC circuit well before it becomes an LC circuit.
Haha!

I was insisting that must be the case the other night in the chat session we had.

Let me throw something out here Ronnie and you guide me if my instincts are correct…


If you DC bias the primary, you have the ability to push that half of the core into saturation where you can modify the behavior of the L2 choke.  However, with a gap between the two core halves, the tendency to also saturate the other core half is much reduced, so what happens to the L2 doesn't happen or happens much less to the secondary and L1.

And why would anyone want to do this…?

I have been thinking about this question a lot.  Seems to me we have created quite a conundrum by having the L1 and secondary on the same core connected in-phase while the L2 hangs out there all alone on the secondary side.  As I see it, the L1 and secondary are working together as one big coil with a much higher combined turns ratio than the L2.  So we have more volts, but much less amperage to speak of.  So compared to the L2, how do we get the amperage up to about equal on the L1 and secondary?

Answer.  We don't.

Instead, we drop the amperage on the L2 without changing its voltage much, by introducing a DC bias to that particular core.  If we do it right, the B+ and B- current flow will the equal (from the reference point) and the differential between these two points will become zero--no current flow between B+ and B-, while still maintaining the two to one charge ratio.

That's my thinking anyway and I say this because it appears to me in my current setup, there is current flow between B+ and B-, which is why my L1/secondary voltage looks knocked down by the L2.  It looks that way because the L2 is actually overpowering the other side and pulling it down towards B-.  If I'm right about all this, adding the correct DC bias along with the proper core gap, should fix the problem I'm seeing.

Yes, no, maybe so?

Matt Watts

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #768, on November 20th, 2016, 10:35 PM »
Okay, so I told you guys that story, to tell you this one…

I'm looking at my stout Amorphous C-cores and I can tell you this much with surety:  I'll never hit saturation with these cores using the input power we are targeting.

I think this is why Stan chose to use those non-standard thin ferrite cores.  One half of this core would be relatively easy to put into saturation with just a small DC offset.

What say you?






haxar

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #774, on November 20th, 2016, 11:33 PM »
Diatomic hydrogen being sold at the pump! (fine print: not monatomic hydrogen)

Got this at the current Los Angeles Auto Show.

How's H70 better than 87 octane?