I'm not so sure that the water in the cell will have a fixed resistance. if we start the bubbling... we change the resistance and capacitance.

so we do the calculation for 78.54 ohms????

in the end we should do the calculation for the amount of gas we want... ?.?.  lol oh boy.

~Russ

Quote from ~Russ on November 12th, 2016, 10:04 PM

I'm not so sure that the water in the cell will have a fixed resistance. if we start the bubbling... we change the resistance and capacitance.

so we do the calculation for 78.54 ohms????

in the end we should do the calculation for the spot we are trying to make gas... ?.?.  lol oh boy.

Trying to improve Stan's formula already are you.   Not such a good idea me thinks.

BTW, are you monitoring chat?

Quote from Matt Watts on November 12th, 2016, 10:08 PM

Trying to improve Stan's formula already are you.   Not such a good idea me thinks.

BTW, are you monitoring chat?

not improve... understand lol

~Russ

I think this is more accurate way to show the water capacitor than what stan has given.
There seems to a great deal of research into the interaction of electrolytes with electrodes, it also seems that the capacitance is formed by a very thin layer of water molecules/ions ( only a few  hundred angstroms thickness) i.e. one or two water molecules thickness, right next to the electrodes. If anyone is trying to simulate the circuit I suggest they try as per picture below, i believe its a more accurate way to visualise the water capacitor. I'm convinced its a double capacitor, not acting as a single capacitor.

@ Matt 10 ohms in the primary is critical, you have to have 1 amp in the primary. At 10 volts/10 ohms gives you 1 amp. so the target voltage in the primary is 10 volts when you hit resonance. Because of things not being perfect the target may end up being 11 or 12 volts. If so the primary coil can still handle the amps. 12volts/10ohms=1.2amps which is the rating of the wire used. That's the reason Steven said "We found it to works better around 11 volts". Because of loses of things not being perfect.

If we use your example of 3 ohms in the primary we would have 3volts/12volts=4 amps in the primary so you can see the wire size 29 gauge is not rated for that. Therefore you would have to use a different wire size to handle the amps in the primary. Then you have to ask the question what effect would that have on the other working parts of the VIC.

We have to use the values from Stan's VIC that Don gave us in order to understand it. Even though we can change things to get the watts in and watts out, Just remember if we change things, what effect will it have on other things in the process.

Ronnie
3 ohms/12 volts give you 4 amps.
andy

You are correct Andy Thanks, I will change my post, it was early and I was rushing to get ready for work. It's good to have eyes looking over things, that way we can make things right when need be.

Ronnie
Many thanks for you for sharing with us your knowledge .
andy

It's not to say we can't have 4 amps, We would have to work out the time constants so we would know when to shut it down at 1 amp. It just makes it more complicated and throws more spokes in the wheel.

That's one thing I always found interesting.
Even with 12V & 1.2A your only using 14.4 watts of power...And don't forget he's using a 50% duty cycle which reduces the power even more when you look at it over time.

1 horsepower is 746 watts.....I think the buggy engine was a 50HP engine. Makes you think!

Brad, I have to kinda disagree about the 50% duty cycle reducing the power even more.

When you do the math for the time constants that it takes for an Inductor (Primary Coil) to reach 1 amp it also takes time constants for it to decay. That's your pulse on time and pulse off time. (Frequency)
So in other words 5 time constants during the pulse on time will reach 1 amp, then you have an Off time of time constants for it to decay.
Keep in mind the secondary is doing the opposite, during the off or decay time of the primary is when the on time is on in the secondary, which is the voltage source on the secondary side. So therefore you have time constants that needs to be considered to match the primary going into the choke during off time of the Primary. Keep in mind we have two different voltage sources with two different amp ratings.

I see what you mean.

Still...if you can power a 50HP engine with 14.4 watts that's amazing. I wonder if Stan was able to really get 50HP out of it?

That is a question that remains unanswered! All I can say is this, if he can Idle the buggy with the polarization process with that big tall cell, I can just imagine what it would do with the gas excitation process including the gas processor that also excites the ambient air. Who knows!!!!!!! Not Me!!!!! I just can't imagine him doing all that talking about diluting the gas and adding exhaust gases back into the mix to control the burn rate, if it wasn't more powerful than gasoline.

Quote from gpssonar on November 13th, 2016, 03:25 AM

@ Matt 10 ohms in the primary is critical, you have to have 1 amp in the primary. At 10 volts/10 ohms gives you 1 amp. so the target voltage in the primary is 10 volts when you hit resonance.

So until the system hits resonance, the input current continues going up along with the increased voltage.  And only at resonance does the current drop off.

So if there was some way to get into resonance quickly, then you could use the thinner wire on the primary.   Hmmm...

I'll have to think about that some more.

In order to use thinner wire, just close the gap up between the cells like he did in the injector plug.

Quote from gpssonar on November 13th, 2016, 03:25 AM

We have to use the values from Stan's VIC that Don gave us in order to understand it. Even though we can change things to get the watts in and watts out, Just remember if we change things, what effect will it have on other things in the process.

Yes, this was the part a few of us were struggling with last night in the chat session.  Trying to figure out what the actual process is.  Still very confusing when getting into the hardcore details.  For example, the two chokes sure look to me like simple low-pass filters, but when you run the numbers for their cutoff frequencies, nothing makes any sense any more.  Mainly because it's so hard to determine what the series resistance against these chokes actually is.  And without knowing the series resistance, the cutoff frequency can be all over the board from very high to very low.

So yes, a few of us are still struggling to get our heads wrapped around the methods the VIC uses to accomplish what it does.

simple question. Ronnie you wants told me this resonance is between L1 and the cell. but at some point L2 also becomes part of the resonance.  could you potentially try to explain your understanding of how those things work with each other and when. This might help me and Matt think more clearly about how the chokes resonate with the cell

There is some confusion.

Thanks!!

~Russ

Yes, when Xl and Xc equal zero lets say, current is at it's max, you will never get L1 or L2 to choke off all the current from rushing back, and that causes an oscillation between the two chokes. what's between the two chokes the water capacitor. It want be a huge amount of current because be don't have a huge amount of current in the secondary side anyway. But we do have a huge amount of voltage at this time. Just calculate the time constants of the L1 Charging and the time constant of it's decay time.  You better have a pulse coming in at the right time when the decay time starts to takes place or you will have current movement. I personally believe you will never get it to choke it all and stop all movement. That's where the term voltage stimulation comes from Stan talks about if you ask me! That little bit of current change is enough to allow the voltage to raise and lower a real small amount in the cell. (Voltage Stimulation)

If you reach this point, Just remember this old saying:

Mary had a steamboat the steamboat had a bell, Mary pulled the wrong chain and the steamboat blew all to H@$L.

So the moral of this story is, don't turn the wrong knob, or pull the wrong chain when you reach this level of resonance. LOL

Ronnie the best way I can get my head around this impeadance matching would be to compare it to a car eg first through to fourth gear we're picking up speed (L1 + cell voltage stimulation) upon reaching its max rpm engine to road speed then we select overdrive ( Resonance L2+cell+L1 begin to interact) and we have fifth gear overdrive....

Am anywhere near close????

More like going trough the gears and then throwing the rocket booster on.

Lol ya ok so basically getting the ratio correct.. so if the math works out how do we apply it? This is where I think we need to be able spark a spark plug and record our findings?

I'm probably jumping the gun a bit ??

Yes Dom. This is why we tune to a dry cell. To make sure we have it in the ball park.

~Russ

Let's do the math to find the time constants on the primary side of Stan's Vic.

According to Don's measurements:
Things we need to know.

Primary Coil Inductance=48.5mH with core @10kHz
Primary Coil Resistance=10 ohms
Primary voltage at 1Amp=10 volts
First thing we need to do is convert 48.5mH to Henry= 0.0485H
Next we need to divide the inductance into the resistance  0.0485/10=.00485s
.00485 is 63.2% of the rise in current and is the first time constant.
It takes 5 time constants to get to a full 1 amp in the coil
So take  .00485*5=.02425s
.02425s is the time period
Next we need to get the Frequency
The math for that is f=1/time
1/.02425=41.2371134Hz

Ok so once we get time constant on the primary do we apply the math to the secondary coils also or all we need is to know the primary??

That would be 5 pulses @ .2425 seconds each ?   (time constant) to get the 1 amp

Basically we want to put this into first gear and gain movement towards the next gear???

Sure you would Dom on the L1 choke, Just remember you will have a different voltage and resistance on that side. It must match the off time of the primary. If it don't the inductance is to high or to low or the resistance is to high or to low. This is where you get into "What do I do" LOL And no that don't mean 5 pulses. It means one pulse.