Quote from Matt Watts on November 12th, 2016, 10:42 AM

To satisfy my curiosity about something here.  Has anyone burned up a VIC coil?

And if you have, can you tell us exactly which coil or coils burned up?

Did it burn up from arc-over between windings (short out) or did it simply pass too much current (open circuit) ?

The reason I ask is because knowing where amperage or voltage went when it was not supposed to could be helpful in the tuning process.

mostly in coils so I heard

I have burn up a few in my time. LOL Always in the secondary. Never had a L1 or L2 or primary to burn up. And it always happened in the center of the coil for some reason.

Quote from gpssonar on November 12th, 2016, 10:59 AM

I have burn up a few in my time. LOL Always in the secondary. Never had a L1 or L2 or primary to burn up. And it always happened in the center of the coil for some reason.

So what's the reason it burned? Unbalanced chokes?

~webmug

Quote from gpssonar on November 12th, 2016, 10:59 AM

I have burn up a few in my time. LOL Always in the secondary. Never had a L1 or L2 or primary to burn up. And it always happened in the center of the coil for some reason.

So it burned open, like with too many amps correct?

Not arc over short from too many volts cooking the insulation?

always from arc over shorted, due to screwing up tuning the thing to resonance. And also that time i had it working and hit the frequency knob, that was the big one, that brought out the smoke. All the other times was just due to going the wrong way in frequency while making a voltage change. The closer you get to reaching you max voltage input, there is not room for mistakes.

Thanks very much Ronnie and Russ for advices,i tried geting the coil closer,no difference,still 12v,and 340v with no load.Grinded one leg of each set,put a cooper shim ..the voltage was a bit lower...again without the proper  core there are too many variables.

you see it does not matter You are fed a certain amount of energy in primary winding ,probably a smaller amount not above allowed values for a given diameter of the wire I think who would want to deliberately destroy the windings. It is a bloody to strange

Thank you Ronnie.  So it is definitely voltage internal to the secondary that shoots through the insulation.  Very good to know.

The phasing dots on the Secondary and L1 needs to go toward the B+. I am at work right now don't have anything here. But If I remember right the secondary and L1 phase goes toward the cell and is in phase with the Primary. I will check when i get home. I hate working weekends.

I hate working weekends
lol welcome to my world, My working week ended a few hours ago and now it's snowing in my place

Back to the subject I did not mean to enter any misunderstanding in Ronnies work
restrict dead short or reduce current in WFC is a very important part of the process Even common sense says so
but after that process My sense says There might be a serious amount of energy in transformer or cells.
I also noticed 2 to 1 between hydrogen and oxygen is not correct ratio  in quantity of  charge difference
choking coils in my calculation have little difference in resistance 8-10%
whether anyone knows the difference in mass of hydrogen and oxygen    it is 8-10% hydrogen and 90% oxygen
so regardless of what we do with the charge rules of classical physics can be applied

something to think about... ( not related to the VIC...  but water related and with HV)

see link

http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2803.msg40858#msg40858

not to distract so post replayed there on that thread

~Russ

Quote from gpssonar on November 12th, 2016, 11:48 AM

The phasing dots on the Secondary and L1 needs to go toward the B+. I am at work right now don't have anything here. But If I remember right the secondary and L1 phase goes toward the cell and is in phase with the Primary. I will check when i get home. I hate working weekends.

I'm working weekends too, as always.  Just home for dinner at the moment, then back to the tar pit.

In that schematic view of the VIC, I want to keep the phasing dots all aligned as they are and just move the connections around to properly match-up with the VIC.  When I look at your coil/core drawing, I keep getting confused between start/finish and the phasing dots you put on there, so my schematic diagram is probably not correct, but you see what I'm shooting for I hope.  Something that I can study when thinking of resonance, filters, DC resistance, etc.  I may even incorporate this schematic on my spreadsheet so when you have calculated the values, it shows you immediately on the schematic what they are.  This all helps to get instant feedback when asking yourself what-if questions.  May also be good when attempting simulations and such.

I'm afraid we have some convincing to do before we can get Russ to fully engage on this project.  He's seen and done so much that if we don't show him something that he realizes he clearly missed, he'll stay on the sideline for a bit longer.  Can't say I blame him, I would do the same thing.  But I'm completely green so it doesn't hurt me any to get dirty, bloody, scraped, pinched, confused, electrocuted, etc.    ;)

Quote from Matt Watts on November 12th, 2016, 04:48 PM

I'm afraid we have some convincing to do before we can get Russ to fully engage on this project.  He's seen and done so much that if we don't show him something that he realizes he clearly missed, he'll stay on the sideline for a bit longer.  Can't say I blame him, I would do the same thing.  But I'm completely green so it doesn't hurt me any to get dirty, bloody, scraped, pinched, confused, electrocuted, etc.    ;)

my goal

1. understand the VIC the way Ronnie states it workings. (when i say understand i mean make sense of the functions in my head or on paper, understanding the way to tune it. this dose not mean i need to understand the fundamental wood work of reality.... )

2. Do the math on my own using the understanding of #1 as a guide to design from ( any good engineer makes a list of thing that a system must do before ever starting to build the project, a flow chart if you like, something to help guide the project)

3. make sure the number 1 and number 2 work together, on paper. ( looking at phase changes frequency how it effects the system, make some charts, just check that the math and the understand at least makes scene)

4. pick up my soldering iron and start the tuning process...  (step 4 will be a weekend project if i can get 1,2,3 in place... i got so Manny coils laying around i surly can just change a few turns to get it going...)

so lets get back to my list...

i did not get feed back on the last post i made ( directly from Ronnie) so i will re post it.

~Russ

Ronnie, I'm still checking my understanding.

please read this and agree or disagree so i can keep going down my list. I'm taking it slow so its easier for you to respond.

next:

a bigger tuning parameter ( we know the fine tuning is core movement)  for the 2:1 ratio is :

To raise the negative voltage, take turns off the L1 (positive choke) and placing them on L2 (negative choke) in order to control the charge on the negative plate. This works both ways, less on L2 less voltage on the negative plate.

We "move" turns from one choke to another to keep the impedance matching.

  we need to worried about resistance. more on this later but its all about impedance matching.

~Russ

Yes that is right, you can move turns from any coil as long as they are put back on somewhere. You must maintain the resistance in the secondary circuit in order to maintain the impedance match.

thanks,

i'm kinda jumping ahead but... lets briefly talk about impedance matching ( you already kinda answered this in the above post... but... )

next:

keep in mined that we always need to keep a "DC" impedance match.  This is between the primary and the rest of the VIC
Sec,L2,L1,C = Pri   we can say "DC" resistance.  because its when its in resonance, that is reatance in the cap and inductor cancel each other out.
 Xl=Xc, so the only thing left is resistance... kinda like we remove "impedance" the Z. impedance is normally AC resistance...

i have a fallow up question on this but first... yes / no ?

~Russ

Yes if I understand you correctly.

i think you do, but if not just reword what I'm trying to understand in your own words, that's will be helpful for both of us.

basically I'm asking how to impedance match.

so we know that to impedance match we want the source resistance and the load resistance to be equal.

and we know that in an LC resonant circuit... the Xc = Xl . this is dependent on frequency, at this frequency where Xc=Xl the only resistance left is the "DC" resistance. ( the wire)

so this resistance must be = to the primary. to have an impedance match.

 if the primary is 10 ohms the load needs to be 10 ohms
to my knowledge that is how an impedance match works???


so that brings me to something i don't quite understand, ( a few but ill ask them one at time)

Q. we need to have the primary = the Sec+L1+L2+ resistance in the cell. correct?? ( this is of coarse at resonance)

OK i'm editing this post due to the understanding of the "power matching" and not necessarily " impedance matching" 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_power_transfer_theorem

i was stuck on matching the resistance, however we can fix that by looking at the link above. and the attachment in my post 2 down from this one.

more studding for me...

~Russ

Russ, use the watts-in equals watts-out power formula.  This will take care of your turn ratio problem you are missing.

Quote from Matt Watts on November 12th, 2016, 07:47 PM

Russ, use the watts-in equals watts-out power formula.  This will take care of your turn ratio problem you are missing.

Aparently I missed that.

Can you please give an example.

Ronnie I think coverd this so I need to go back and look. Or you can just explain right quick.

This is to impedance match?


Thanks Matt!

ok i just found your notes... ill re attach them...

Now as far as I know, 10 ohms is not any kind of magic number, it's just a starting point in Ronnie's method.

My spreadsheet shoots for whatever turns ratio you want and finds a workable impedance match for the wire/bobbins you physically plan to use.  So you may very well end up with a primary resistance of some crazy thing like 3.587 ohms, but it will match and the watts-in/watts-out will be spot on.


Some may find this version of my spreadsheet useful or interesting.  It handles primary / secondary wire of different gauges and you can adjust the bobbin parameters and exact wire specs as needed.  The chart is just a baseline, so put in the numbers that match your actual physical components.

The numbers currently in there are what I am targeting at the moment.  What you will notice right away is that the 78.54 Re is much larger than the resistance of the coils.  Will this even work?   The heck if I know without trying it.

i edited my last posts.. have a look...

the reason Ronnie picked 10 ohms is due to the fact that stan did the same... 10.5 ohms of wire,  220 ohms of resister in parallel = 10.02 ohms.

i need to dig in to the math a bit before i can ask more questions.

Thanks!!

~Russ

Ps i forgot i had forgot this... but once i forgot i knew... its coming back to me now ( slaps him self with a big fish)

Using the goal-seek in Excel makes is possible to not have to start with a fixed primary resistance.  You could spend days trying to match something up without that feature.  So I'm sure that's why Stan just picked a number and worked everything forward from there.  I'm also pretty sure that's why Ronnie did the same thing.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Also, you still have the option of connecting a parallel resistor across the primary, but only if it turns out the primary resistance is too high to match up with the secondary coils.  If you start fiddling with taking turns off, you'll get things so balled up you'll end up starting over.