"Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"

~Russ

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #600, on November 11th, 2016, 11:08 AM »
Quote from adys15 on November 11th, 2016, 10:18 AM
Ronnie i dont know others but i learn and understand beter when i test and build something.I test something and when i read and learn i understand where and why i got wrong...Reading theories about a transformer that i will built after 1 year or two or never(because the frikin core)would get me no were.Its like in school if you learn for example ohm's law without building a circuit and learning the same time after 2 days you forget it entirely.No offense to no one but I'm more a technical guy and thats  only my point of view.
I'm 100% on the same page. and i agree with you, things dont stick in my head unless i  DO them!! i was saying the same thing in an past post
however if we dont have anything to think about we cant test it!!

will get there!!!

~Russ


gpssonar

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #602, on November 11th, 2016, 11:16 AM »Last edited on November 11th, 2016, 11:24 AM
Quote from adys15 on November 11th, 2016, 11:13 AM
These are my coils on the cores how can i get the primary and secoundary more closer ?They are on a flyback core.
http://open-source-energy.org/?action=dlattach;topic=876.0;attach=12544;image

I was geting 12v with cell atached,whiteout it 340v at around 20khz
Looking at your photo if that is the primary with the l2 choke on one set and secondary and L1 on the other, then the primary is not coupled to the secondary. flip the primary over to where it is close to the secondary. You also will have to get the primary as close to the secondary as you can.

If your primary is on the same core as the secondary, Then it is not coupled the way Stan's C core Vic is coupled. It can't be that way. The Primary and L2 has to be on one core and the secondary and L1 has to be on the other core. You see why I don't want to mix the two until everyone understand Stan's vic first?

~Russ

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #603, on November 11th, 2016, 11:24 AM »
Quote from gpssonar on November 11th, 2016, 11:16 AM
Looking at your photo if that is the primary with the l2 choke on one set and secondary and L1 on the other, then the primary is not coupled to the secondary. flip the primary over to where it is close to the secondary. You also will have to get the primary as close to the secondary as you can.
adys,

Ronnie is trying to say you need to move the coils closer together. ( Pri and secondary coils! )

this is how you fine tune the "charge" on the plates!! ( we are trying to get a 2:1 :charge" raito

looking at it you might even need to make your system configured to move the complete core and bobbins closer and further apart.

aka a another tuning parameter!!

let me draw it up using your photo.

~Russ

Ronnie, am i correct on what I'm saying here to Adys? please correct me if im wrong


gpssonar

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #605, on November 11th, 2016, 11:28 AM »Last edited on November 11th, 2016, 11:31 AM
First thing he needs to do is put the primary and L2 choke on the same core, and the secondary and L1 on the same core. place the primary and secondary close to each other as he can. then be able to move the primary back and forth from the secondary to do the fine tuning of the voltage in the secondary.

gpssonar

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #606, on November 11th, 2016, 11:33 AM »Last edited on November 11th, 2016, 11:35 AM
Getting back to Stan's Vic, Can everyone see how the gap between the cores controls the coupling from the Primary to the Secondary which in return controls and fine tunes the voltage in the secondary and L1. And if you follow through with this to the positive plate, it also fine tunes the charge on that plate.

~Russ

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #607, on November 11th, 2016, 11:38 AM »
Quote from gpssonar on November 11th, 2016, 11:16 AM
If your primary is on the same core as the secondary, Then it is not coupled the way Stan's C core Vic is coupled. It can't be that way. The Primary and L2 has to be on one core and the secondary and L1 has to be on the other core. You see why I don't want to mix the two until everyone understand Stan's vic first?
no he has it correct, L2 and Pri, one core,
and Sec and L1 on the same core,

BUT Adys, you need to put the Pri and Secondary close to each other!!!

and make that "tunable"

as in this fix of your photo


tell me if i'm wrong Ronnie, but i think i understand it.

~Russ

gpssonar

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #608, on November 11th, 2016, 11:44 AM »Last edited on November 11th, 2016, 12:07 PM
Ady15 because it is you, I will tell you all the variables you can control with the dual setup like you have.
1: on one core you have the primary and L2 choke coupled together. You can control the inductacne of L2 by grinding one of the legs by a thousands or two and even more if you need to. But don't grind the leg the primary is on. what ever you grind on the L2 leg place a brass or copper spacer of the same thickness as you ground off. That is one adjustment you can make to control the inductance of L2. Then you have turns you can take off or add to on the L2, that is another adjustment you can make.
2: you can repeat the same on the L1 choke leg by grinding some off and placing a spacer of the same amount you ground off but don't grind the secondary leg That allows you to control the inductance of L1. You can also add or take turns off the L2 choke.
3: place the primary close to the seconday move them as close to each other as you can. pulling them apart from one another is another adjustment you can make.
4: taking turns off the secondary and add turns is another adjustment you can make.

So now do you see what all you can do with the two core setup?
Now with that being said we need to get back to Stan's Vic in order to see what all these adjustments do.

~Russ

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #609, on November 11th, 2016, 11:46 AM »Last edited on November 11th, 2016, 11:50 AM
i would like to start a new phase in this thread, this is called the understanding phase.  i spent in to the wee hrs of the night making my understanding.

i would like to ask Ronnie one question at a time.

I'm asking specific feed back.
 if you agree with my question / understanding, say yes,
if you disagree say no, BUT then answer it the way it is correct. or explain it the way you see it. 

i have a LONG list, most of them are the things you already tried to express in this thread, i will get back to them shortly but first i want to start with a few things on the list you posted

"1: Core material
2: Diode on primary side
3: Diode on Secondary side
4: LC circuit
5: Tuning the LC circuit to the Fuel cell"

i want to start with #3.  you haven't got to it yet... but i wanna give i a go.

here it goes,

when in resonance mode*

The diode between the Sec and L1 (Positive choke) is acting as a one way valve, letting positive voltage go through but not back.
note the "DC resonant charging" when L1 is charged as it discharges it will charge the "cap" up to 2X the voltage of the input "source"
see this page for more details on this concept. http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/dcreschg.html

~Russ
PS. this one should be easy to answer :)



 

gpssonar

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #610, on November 11th, 2016, 11:52 AM »Last edited on November 11th, 2016, 12:08 PM
That is 100% correct Russ

The diode on the primary gives it a flywheel during the off time to suppress voltage spikes getting back into the driving circuit.

The core material must meet or exceed the required frequency your going to be using without saturating the core material. It also needs to be able to raise the inductance into the range needed for the LC circuit.
 
The other two I will have to get some material together to talk about them. If you have something together already you can discuss them and I will weigh in on it if I need to.

~Russ

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #611, on November 11th, 2016, 12:28 PM »
next understanding.

There needs to be more negative "charge"
 (charge is defined by the idea of having potential difference we can call it "voltage" but that gets confusing, so we use the term "charge" just to help us understand this, like Matt was saying "electrostatic" )
 the ratio 2:1 due to the fact that H2O Having two positive H charges and one negative O charge. (opposites attract) we must "match" the water charge differential. 2:1, in the cell.

~Russ


~Russ

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #613, on November 11th, 2016, 12:43 PM »
Next understanding.

The primary and L2 (negative choke) are connected on one half of the "core", this gives "100%" flux transfer between the choke and Pri

The Secondary and L1 ( positive choke ) are connected on one half "core", this gives "100%" flux transfer between - choke and Sec

those 2 things above are considered "closely" coupled inductors
 

adjusting the core gap of the cores will adjust the ratio of charges on the plates. this is a "fine tuning" parameter for the 2:1 charge ratio.

this is considered  "loosely" coupled inductors. 

~Russ


~Russ

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #615, on November 11th, 2016, 01:19 PM »
next:

a bigger tuning parameter for the 2:1 ratio is :

To raise the negative voltage, take turns off the L1 (positive choke) and placing them on L2 (negative choke) in order to control the charge on the negative plate. This works both ways, less on L2 less voltage on the negative plate.

We "move" turns from one choke to another to keep the impedance matching. You could also keep the impedance matching via changing the primary Resistance or doing it by adding a resistor across parallel or in series depending if its high or low. 


  we need to worried about resistance. more on this later but its all about impedance matching.

~Russ

Matt Watts

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #616, on November 11th, 2016, 04:46 PM »Last edited on November 11th, 2016, 04:51 PM
Russ and others, keep in mind the Stan Meyer VIC is accomplishing two tasks in one device.  You need to keep things straight in your head which task you are hoping to adjust/optimize and do it in a way that least impacts the task you already have working (hopefully).

Task 1.  You must create enough amp leakage to start basic electrolysis.

Task 2.  You must create a condition on the plates where there is a two to one charge ratio.

Because you are building one device that accomplishes two tasks, things become a minefield if you don't understand the relationships.  One component can contribute to both tasks, so if you adjust it and you already had one task working, you probably just screwed it up.

So there is some complexity here and to overcome it, you must do things in the correct sequence which Ronnie has been walking us through.  Once you get your hands dirty, it will become apparent this is an iterative process--a little adjustment here; a little adjustment there, then on to the next step.


I posted earlier the PDF about electrostatic measuring techniques.  What I want you all to glean from this is in the first page or two.  You will notice there is no mention of amperage, unlike what you will find elsewhere on the Internet when you search the word charge or Coulomb.  It says quite plainly:

"When we move one coulomb of charge from one point to another in an electric field, we are doing work on that charge.  The term we use for this is electric potential or voltage."

"Again, a volt is the amount of work it takes to move one coulomb of charge a certain distance through an electrical field E."


Voltage does do work, just like Stan said and the people that know how to measure electrostatics know this.  Now you do too.

You must think about charge and the VIC as a creator and distributor of charge, charge which you will separate in the proper proportions and put it where it needs to go.


What I found very confusing to me until it finally clicked is this unbalanced (two to one) charge ratio.  The reason for it being so confusing is because you have no reference point.  I think you actually could though by center tapping the secondary, but suppose you don't.  So what do I mean...

If you measure voltage across the two plates, you get a voltage differential.  Let's say for example the value is 200 volts.  Now look at this algebraically:

200  =  A  -  B

A and B have limitless possibilities to satisfy that equation.  If we add another equation:

A  =  2  *  B

Only then can we find values for both A and B that actually work--that actually "switch-off the covalent bonds".

We can do this because we can adjust the gap between the two cores and more fundamentally, we have complete control over what charges the VIC produces and where they go.  Let's look at this closer by referring back to the image Ronnie posted.

As you can see, the primary and L2 (negative choke) are fixed on the same core.  So we know immediately the negative plate will collect the maximum negative charge possible coming from the input signal.  It has to because it is directly coupled.  Now let's look at the positive plate...

As we can see here, the only way to get positive charge to the positive plate is to get the secondary to produce more voltage.  So let's place the two C-cores tightly together so that maximum coupling is achieved.  What do we get charge-wise?

Well, with 100% flux flowing through both C-cores, we can see the charge ratio between the two plates is pretty nearly one to one.  You'll get a voltage differential, but the ratio is no good.  This won't help us with water.  We need two to one charge ratio.

Okay, I glossed over this pretty quick didn't I?  I said one to one with the cores tightly pressed together.  Let's look closer...

L2 is outputting full negative charge; L1 is outputting full positive charge and the secondary is outputting half-and-half, equal positive and negative going each direction.  Let's forget about the diode for a moment and just think of it as a valve making sure charge is only moving in one direction on the rising impulse of magnetic flux.  On the decaying side of the magnetic flux, everything just sits still because the valve opens and stops any charge movement.  Hopefully now you can see one to one charge distribution when the cores are together.

When the cores are apart, again only negative charge is pushed out of the L2 choke; the L1 and secondary are no longer participating in the conversion of magnetic flux to electrical charge.

So we want a two to one charge ratio.  I'm hoping you guys are already ahead of me now that I have set the two possible limits, cores far apart and cores tightly together.  Now let's look at when the cores are separated apart by just the right distance...

As stated above, the L2 choke will always produce the maximum negative charge since it is stuck on the same core with the primary where the input signal is coming from.  Now go slow here, another minefield awaits.  What is it?

You're thinking turns ratio right?  Yes, you should because the turns ratio between the primary and L2 is slightly different than the turns ratio between the primary and the secondary.  Or I should say, it could be.  But don't get too tripped up here and fall off the wagon.  Here's another reason why Ronnie mentioned the secondary coils should all be similar turns count of similar wire.  If you took heed of this, you're still okay.

Now when you bring the cores together with a small gap, the L1 and Secondary begin to kick-in their contribution to the positive charge on the positive plate.  As stated above, there must be a spot where the negative charge produced at the negative plate is exactly twice in absolute value or strength as the positive charge produced at the positive plate.  This is your goal--task number two.  What's going on here with the gap is the manipulation of the coupling factor to achieve the desired charge ratio.  I can't tell you how touchy this adjustment might be, because I haven't done it yet, but I'm sure you will want to fill the gap with some kind of a sturdy material that will not compress, so once you have things dialed-in, they will stay that way.



~Russ

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #617, on November 11th, 2016, 05:01 PM »Last edited on November 11th, 2016, 05:03 PM
Quote from Matt Watts on November 11th, 2016, 04:46 PM
Russ and others, keep in mind the Stan Meyer VIC is accomplishing two tasks in one device.  You need to keep things straight in your head which task you are hoping to adjust/optimize and do it in a way that least impacts the task you already have working (hopefully).

Task 1.  You must create enough amp leakage to start basic electrolysis.

Task 2.  You must create a condition on the plates where there is a two to one charge ratio.
yes i agree, i call this the "mode change"


This is the mode where we go from starting the electrolytes mode to the resonance mode.


also on your task #2 you forgot to add that when in this mode of operation everything must match "resonance"  Xc=Xl

but during Task 1 or mode 1 this is not the case.

This is why we tune the VIC with no water in the Cell!!!

( i think we understand that)

good stuff. i'm gonna keep posting things for Ronnie to agree with or disagree with. I have a few more things to post but a lot to think about still.

after i'm happy with MY understanding of Ronnie's prospective of the VIC,
 then we can talk about the math. because the math and the mode go hand and hand. but it all starts with what we are trying to achieve. ( and understanding it so we can engineer it along the way!)


~Russ



Matt Watts

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #620, on November 11th, 2016, 06:11 PM »Last edited on November 12th, 2016, 12:08 AM
Quote from ~Russ on November 11th, 2016, 05:01 PM
yes i agree, i call this the "mode change"

This is the mode where we go from starting the electrolytes mode to the resonance mode.
I will contend there is no actual "mode change".  The VIC executes both modes simultaneously.  What happens is that task 1 dies out because the dead short begins to go away and the effect of task 2 takes over.  At some point the resistance of the cell becomes less than the dialed-in amp leakage.  This is the resistance band going from 80 to 4 as the dielectric property of water changes, but I assure you both VIC tasks are operational at all times.  This is also why I would conclude no other device does what the VIC does.  It has both ends covered when it comes to manipulating water.
Quote from ~Russ on November 11th, 2016, 05:01 PM
also on your task #2 you forgot to add that when in this mode of operation everything must match "resonance"  Xc=Xl
I would look at this term differently.  Instead of resonance, I would call it resonant-rise.

The analogy here is a spinning flywheel with little to no friction (resistance).  If you keep bumping the flywheel with a ratchet-type impulse device (diode), the storage device (capacitor) continues to charge, or in this case acquire charge.  You can in effect force (voltage) charge onto the flywheel until something gives way.  Or as Stan says, "up to the ability of the electronics".  All depends upon how sharp your impulse is.  If it's dull, you'll quickly hit a point where you cannot boost the speed of the flywheel any further, but if it's sharp, look out, you'll have more than coils crackling like bacon.

My preferred way to look at the chokes is they are low-pass filters, meaning that at the frequencies we are pulsing at, they always pass the voltage (the force to move charge), but they don't allow current flow, hence we call them chokes.  They choke-off current flow.  And as a reminder, what is current flow?  What are amps?

Think Ohms Law.  It means there is a resistance present.  And we fixed that problem already by impedance matching all the coils and the cell itself at DC (all frequencies and their harmonics).


Now these two chokes or low-pass filters allow charge through them no problem, but to fulfill task #1, they have to be offset just enough in accordance with the input frequency to allow some amp leakage.  No amp leakage, no process start.  You can send all the perfectly balanced charge ratio charge to the cell you want and it will all hit the dead short and re-arrange itself to equalize within the cell.  Game over.


newguy

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #621, on November 11th, 2016, 09:10 PM »Last edited on November 11th, 2016, 09:25 PM
Hello Mr.Walker,

Thank you for everything and most important.... your patience.I just wanted to ask if you would add to the list of understanding the oscillation you mentioned that happens at some point in the cell. My research and understanding has me believing an oscillation at some point ( specifically in Stans case "universal priming stage" ) is required.Id love to know if im off in my understanding of that.

It would help me just to know if it allways does that at some point in the process and what point is it or just anything about when the cell oscillates.


Dom

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #623, on November 11th, 2016, 09:30 PM »Last edited on November 11th, 2016, 09:33 PM
I believe that we're trying to overwhelm the dialectic in order to cause it to draw current at low voltage to start the process,

If the voltageacross a dielectric material becomes too great -- that is, if the electrostatic field becomes too intense -- the material will suddenly begin to conduct current.

Just a thought

~Russ

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #624, on November 11th, 2016, 09:50 PM »
Quote from Matt Watts on November 11th, 2016, 06:11 PM
I will contend there is no actual "mode change".  The VIC executes both modes simultaneously.  What happens is that task 1 dies out because the dead short begins to go away and the effect of task 2 takes over.  At some point the resistance of the cell becomes less than the dialed-in amp leakage.  This is the resistance band going from 80 to 4 as the dielectric property of water changes, but I assure you both VIC tasks are operational at all times.  This is also why I would conclude no other device does what the VIC does.  It has both ends covered when it comes to manipulating water.
ok i can agree to disagree but agree... lol

the point is, to make the point.

i'm just expressing that there is a change in operation.

AKA the change happens as the gas starts to be made, and I'm sure other things... at this point i'm racking my brain staying awake lol

just like Ronnie was trying to express in this photo!!

sleep time...

~Russ