Quote from gpssonar on November 4th, 2016, 09:40 AM

Come guy's weight in on the question of the day.

A capacitor is the only device I know of where making one of the dimensions smaller, makes the capacity larger--distance between the plates.  We can go down the road of Eric Dollard and talk about dielectricity and counterspace if anyone wants to, or just accept the basic premise as fact.

Now with a water capacitor instead of actually changing the distance between the plates, we can say the water is actually part of the plates.  If we remove a portion of the water, we are in effect widening the plates and the capacity of the water capacitor is actually going down as more water is removed.  We hit a physical limit when all the water is removed, since the metallic portion of the plates are fixed in position.

On the other side of this limit is when the plates are fully saturated with water.  We can say the plates are so close together, they appear to be shorted.  Hmmm...   But like a spark gap, shorting is only a factor of the voltage applied.  At one volt, no short, but at two volts or higher, we arc across the gap.  We now see what for all practical purposes looks like a dead short, but it actually isn't, it's just a very tiny gap, one that only requires two volts to arc across.  So when the water capacitor is saturated with water, the capacity is at a maximum.  This maximum is set by the atomic arrangement of the water itself.  You physically cannot get the water molecules to pack themselves any closer together and decrease the distance between the plates or the water as an extension of the metallic plates.

Am I getting close Ronnie?

Quote from adys15 on November 4th, 2016, 10:01 AM

Russ i know what you are saying...but i'l give you a practical example of using tv flyback cores.With those flyback cores i get inductances of 10H to 13H.To get stans values you have to have a very big distance between the cores,so big that you loose almost all the mutual coupling so its not that KISS

we need to be very specific with the AL value of the cores. There are Manny Manny of 1000's of cores out there.  we need to find the ones that will work. fly back cores may not work as you said.

so i'm not sure where to go next except say that the right core for the job is needed, and that right core should be an off the shelf core, if it can be. thats all.

also, personally I'm gonna use the stuff i have to replicate. as it is indeed as close as it can be for now. the flat cores and the ones i used on the A.R. bobbin's,
http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=1963.msg26534#msg26534

those are " off the shelf" but currently as it stands the A.R. coils are 2 cores and not 1...

also for those who forgot, there was ALOT of work done on winding, cores, and everything else... see the spreed sheet HERE

also be sure to add to it and re upload!! see the tab " place your info here" this was the start of a database of coils but it seemed i was the only one who keep it up to date...




~Russ

Quote from gpssonar on November 4th, 2016, 03:57 AM

Question for today:
As the dielectric changes in the cell from water to gas, Does the cell capacitance change?
Everyone please chime in.

yes the dielectric changes .  the H is bonded to the O

I agree with you Russ of using off the shelf cores it is the best ideea,but for that to work we must use the same core all of us to be able to compare results and most important Ronnie must agree with the type of core we use..because if we use what we find available to buy for each of us...there will be a mess and mismatch with our testing and we get nowere..


Ronnie sorry for deviating from your capacitance question..but i have some unclear answers..you said
We know our line voltage is 12volts We can times this by the turn ration of 5.567 which is =66.816 Load Voltage
Now we have our load voltage.
Next we calculate the load watts
using formula (66.816 ^2)/310ohms= 14.4 watts


You calculated the turn ratio 1:5 but our vic is 1:30,or you refered to the chokes and wfc as a load.My question is how do you calculate the trasformer that puts out 350v on a 720 ohm load(10 cells in series) for the transformer to transfer all his power of 14w (350v and 40mA)
''

yes adys, and the entire point of this thread here was to do EXACTLY that:
http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=1961.msg26532#msg26532

so the original intent of the R.A. core's and bobbins was to have everyone on the same page.

so if it still stands, i still have bobbins and cores are out there, however that was for the 2 core VIC, so unless Ronnie things other wise, we can use those cores and bobbins...

i like the 1 core VIC better, but like you say, to get to the next step together we need to be on the same page with out equipment as well as out knowledge...

~Russ

oh also fire pinto had the right idea... use 4 cores to make a single core... kinda wack but it works...


i think ill work on this...



~Russ

Quote from gpssonar on November 4th, 2016, 09:44 AM

Thanks Russ, I'm about to explain something about this, and I needed some people that has done some real testing.

Well your comment Ronnie made me really want to lay it all out on the table.  So I did.

That's what I could find any how. The EPG and some controlers still on the shelf...

~Russ

Yeah... that was a tunable choke. ... :huh:

Quote from gpssonar on November 4th, 2016, 09:40 AM

Come on guy's weight in on the question of the day.s

Sorry. In class. I would have to say changing any dielectric material will change capacitance basinging it on  an air capacitor compared to paper as dialectric.

I don't think it changes.

If it did it seems that even a small difference in gas production would throw the cell out resonance.

Quote from HMS-776 on November 4th, 2016, 01:35 PM

I don't think it changes.

If it did it seems that even a small difference in gas production would throw the cell out resonance.

True provided the VIC can't see any feedback from the WFC.  And I'm not sure that is the case.

I just have a feeling whatever the WFC does, the VIC compensates for instantaneously.  And does it without the need for a major frequency change.  Only when something wildly out of normal happens in the cell would you need a PLL to compensate by adjusting the frequency.

Quote from gpssonar on November 4th, 2016, 03:57 AM

Question for today:
As the dielectric changes in the cell from water to gas, Does the cell capacitance change?
Everyone please chime in.

I would say the capacitance stays the same as long as the water  level is replenished at the same rate.

personally I'm gonna use the stuff i have to replicate. as it is indeed as close as it can be for now. the flat cores and the ones i used on the A.R. bobbin's,
http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=1963.msg26534#msg26534[/url

Russ any chance of getting the Gcode.. file so we can print the housings etc??
Cheers Dom

Quote from Dom on November 4th, 2016, 04:18 PM

Russ any chance of getting the Gcode.. file so we can print the housings etc??
Cheers Dom

http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=1960.msg26531#msg26531
http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=1961.msg26532#msg26532
http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=1963.msg26534#msg26534

everyone doing there part: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:415761
original's including .skp : here
someone else doing there part: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1023349

FIY to make this a 4 core VIC the bobbins will need to be turned to fit the cores 90 degrees... if some one changes the files let me know...

also to make a cool new housing for 4 ...

~Russ

Looks like we had a few to chime in on the question of today.
Some say's it does, and some say it don't.
Some say's it increases and Some say's it decreases and a few say's it stay's the same.
This is critical to know.
I remember many people saying it was a moving target years ago.
When I was doing my research on this, I made a few experiments.

1: Checked the cell's capacitance dry with no water just air.
2: Checked the cells capacitance full of water.
3: Checked the cells capacitance with different levels of water within the cells.

For those that think it stays the same, do these three experiments.
Once you do these experiments I think you will find the capacitance does indeed change.

For those that say's the capacitance does change, Can we all agree we have a variable capacitor?

already posted in my excel sheet : as posted here under the Russ 6 single cell mesurments TAB

using the cheep meter that seems more correct...

with out water:   =  16.69pf
with water:         = 1393pf 

and if you take 16.69 x 80.1 you get...  1336pf
16.69 x 78 = 1301pf

so i can trust that measurement...

and everything else in that sheet... individual, series, inside out, ect. 

series measurements of 6 cells... 

with out water: 2.20pf
with water : 239.8pf

 lower frequency  the higher the capacitance. in my testing...  but that meter seems to give measurements that i do not trust...

so yes its changes.

~Russ

Russ would you call that a variable capacitor if the ratio of gas increases and water decreases, changes the capacitance?

Good job thanks Russ..

Quote from gpssonar on November 4th, 2016, 05:54 PM

Russ would you call that a variable capacitor if the ratio of gas increases and water decreases, changes the capacitance?

i would call it a variable in our math, aka we need to know theses as even frequency play's a BIG roll on the capacitance.

~Russ

Quote from ~Russ on November 4th, 2016, 06:03 PM

i would call it a variable in our math, aka we need to know theses as even frequency play's a BIG roll on the capacitance.

~Russ

Exactly, Now you and other wanted to know how to tune the system.
What I am about to say and show is for manual tuning only, with no feedback coil or phase lock loop device.
I have stated many many times you have to start out at a couple volts and work your way up a couple volts at a time while tuning until you reach full voltage.
What I am about to show everyone is how to use a fixed L  to tune into a variable C It is all done by frequency.

As you can see at different voltage levels at different frequencies with a fixed L as the capacitance changes we can use a different frequency with a different voltage and still tune into resonance. If you do the inductance reactance and the capacitance reactance at each levels you will find it is still at resonance through out. Not only that you can see how the step charge is formed. (notice the five frequencies and five pulses) Those number of pulses is determined by the water gap. they can be more or less, all depending on the water gap.

yes, this is well know, we must match capacitance reactance with inductance reactance = electrical resonance


a "simple" concept...

electrical resonance basics 101.

~Russ

Ok, so if everyone knows this and it's basic 101, they why is no one using it?
My next question then is why no one has a working cell if they know this and are using it?

Can I make a guess as to something here Ronnie?

My hunch is the rate of this change you just showed in the chart is controlled by the turns ratio.

Yes?  No?   Maybe so?

Yes