Quote from Ris on January 12th, 2017, 09:27 AM

http://www.vodoskok.hr/prodajni-program/sustavi-opskrbe-prirodnim-plinom/cijevi-za-opskrbu-prirodnim-plinom/
exact inner diameter   outside diameter is slightly larger ie twice thicker than your specifications  it should not be a problem By the way  you have room for cover mounting  that is another plus
This company is in my country but the it does not matter plastic gas pipes should be the same all over the world
so find an acquaintance someone who works on construction field  If you ask nicely they'll  surely give you a piece of pipe

Brad, just a question. if you use any plastic that like to be static charged, and you add some AL foil to it, are you not just making it wore?

i was able to show how much the human interference messes with capacitance.  its not extreme enough that if you have things spreed out from where your working, you should be ok... ??

see around 49 min.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBtbj6kzzHA

~Russ

Russ, I'll look into the duty cycle anomaly on my prototype and see if I can replicate what you see or not.


I see something quite clear in your testing that we are looking for frequency ratios.  I don't know what they should be and how they change with voltage adjustments.  Mutual inductance of the coils is the other factor obviously.  From your ping test I roughly get:
   L2  --  4x
   L1  --  5x
   S  --  6x

I get the feeling we need to try several ping tests at different voltages and see if these change and if they try to converge on some common ratio.

how  many loops does that single wire have?

i hope you  realize that your  scope now is its own RLC circuit.... and your VIC  resonance  will not coincide with your scope resonance.... your  scope has capacitance and inductance..... its its  own circuit now....  what i  wory  is that your scope "loop"  is interfering with the VIC's space flux density distribution... how could it not??

this testing techniques has an air of ronnie walker to it.... did he tell  you about this?

plz research this technique in standard literature.... i can guarentee you  wont find anything... it doesent make sense

Russ,

The shielding is not just for stabilizing the capacitance, it's to prevent energy from getting out and making you sick by overexposure to emr.

Quote from Matt Watts on January 12th, 2017, 02:50 PM

Russ, I'll look into the duty cycle anomaly on my prototype and see if I can replicate what you see or not.

Yeap.  Confirmed.  Get's worse as the frequency goes up.

I don't have differential inputs so I had to do each one separately.  First one is straight from the VCO output; second shot is between the TIP120 output and ground.  Again, because I don't have differential scope probes I always have to connect ground to power negative, so I really can't scope directly across the primary.  The signal to the primary is actually inverted from the second scope shot--duty cycle is increasing with frequency.

This behavior must be intentional Russ.  It's the first real reason I can see for all those transistors in the driver circuit.  I thought it was strictly to create delay and that's partially true--it's a delay that alters the duty cycle.  So best I can tell, Stan was interested in keeping a certain pulse duration regardless of frequency.  I'll try to find out what that duration is.  Maybe it will tell us something important about how the VIC needs to be tuned.

Just checked and on my VIC driver the duty cycle seems to be on a curve that peaks at 100% spot on at 16kHz.  So this is the max frequency the driver could ever output given a 50% duty cycle from the PLL's VCO output.

Which tells me there is no point in testing the VIC beyond 16kHz to the primary.  Any frequency higher than that would be just solid on to the primary winding.

This is by-design; I'm sure of it.

So it's the duration of the off-time that is critical to operation of the VIC.  The off-time and the repetition rate of that off-time must exactly match what the VIC is expecting.  Anything else and you're dead in the water.

I know I haven't been able to chime in much lately, But you guy's are doing a great job at figuring it out. Keep on keeping on.

Quote from gpssonar on January 12th, 2017, 05:28 PM

I know I haven't been able to chime in much lately, But you guy's are doing a great job at figuring it out. Keep on keeping on.

Ronnie, I'm not going to pester you about not chiming-in every other post, because I know you must be grinning ear to ear watching us struggle--learning this way is the only way to really get one's head wrapped around it.

I do thank you for the encouragement and occasional  :thumbsup: when we head in the right direction.  If we do approach a really difficult part, please do drop us a little hint.   ;-)

Quote from Matt Watts on January 12th, 2017, 06:40 PM

Ronnie, I'm not going to pester you about not chiming-in every other post, because I know you must be grinning ear to ear watching us struggle--learning this way is the only way to really get one's head wrapped around it.

I do thank you for the encouragement and occasional  :thumbsup: when we head in the right direction.  If we do approach a really difficult part, please do drop us a little hint.   ;-)

Agreed. 100%

And when we're totally off tracks.  Do chime in. Lol

:)

~Russ

yeah Matt mine was the same. Some of my scope shots are odd becise I Mesuring across the secondary. So they seem inverted if I'm not carful.

~Russ

Great work guys,

A few observations from my testing this morning:

With the 520pF wfc I hit resonance around 7.6kHz....but the oscillations between pulses are around 23kHz (SRF of the choke coils).

When I put a 390pF cap in place of the cell I hit resonance at 8.3kHz....the oscillations are the same 8.3kHz.

In real resonance the oscillations should be the same frequency as what we're putting in....so, something is not quite right in my cell or VIC. I'll look into it further later today.

Quote from Matt Watts on January 12th, 2017, 01:29 PM

More good hard data Russ.  Awesome work!

Here's an annotated schematic for the ping test to study.  Hope I have the data points correct.

Just looking at this from a distance with an untrained eye, it would appear you have the greatest number of windings on the L2, less on L1 and the fewest on the secondary.  I'm sure that's not the case, but I'm curious as to why the numbers come out like that.  It has to be the interwinding capacitance responsible for the these ring points.

well there are MANNY factors for theses rings right?

so not just inner capacitance.
we have the interaction between coils to think about too.
core coupling

theses will effect the SRF

also note that the Sec is not wrapped as nicely as the L2/L1 in my set up

however,

for fun i could start trying to match everything to be resonant as in Brad's description.

more to do more to learn...

~Russ

Russ,

I've adjusted my coils L values several times but don't see any major changes in the way the circuit is operating.

I keep seeing oscillations 2-3x the frequency of resonance. We should be seeing the same frequency at resonance that were putting into the circuit.

When I use a regular cap the oscillations are in phase and match in frequency....but with the cell....

brad. What are you using as a driver?
~Russ

I built my own circuit. It uses 2 ic's, 3 2n2222's and a tip120. It's all on a breadboard right now. I have two different dual channel signal/ function generators that I use with it depending on the accuracy I want.

It works like it's supposed to when I use a regular capacitor but with the cell I keep seeing the chokes SRF. More work to do.

If I get time tomorrow I'll make a video showing what the circuit can do, it's got alot of functionality. 

ok, looking forward to the video

me and Matt are starting to see that Stan's driver circuit... well is doing a patucular funtion... so as we learn you will need to make sure you understand why it is and what its doing... so you can be on the same track... just an FIY...

Thanks!

~Russ

Cool, I noticed Matt said the duty cycle increases as frequency increases right?

Quote from HMS-776 on January 13th, 2017, 04:37 PM

Russ,

I've adjusted my coils L values several times but don't see any major changes in the way the circuit is operating.

I keep seeing oscillations 2-3x the frequency of resonance. We should be seeing the same frequency at resonance that were putting into the circuit.

When I use a regular cap the oscillations are in phase and match in frequency....but with the cell....

you all have a fundamental error in understanding of resonance
classical type of resonance is only constant repetition of the LC process which in itself is nothing special
and it can reproduce by any person in this world with a modest knowledge of electronics

see what Tesla says
No, I did not use that method when I was transmitting energy.  I used it only in the production of those freaks for which I have been called a magician.  If I had used merely undamped waves, I would have been an ordinary electrician like everybody else.

Ris,

Not sure I understand what your saying. We need to put the same frequency in the circuit that is its natural frequency.

We might see frequency doubling but my circuit has oscillations 3X the input freq....Only resonance I'm seeing is the chokes SRF at 22kHz. My circuit should hit resonance around 7.7kHz. It does hit a peak there but the 23kHz oscillations show up.


Russ, what are you seeing your primary current at when your running a 50% duty cycle at say 5kHz with no gating?

Here's my drive circuit:

https://youtu.be/aCV98ajnTA0

So Ris, the questions become:

What is this other method?

How do we generate it?

And how do we recognize it when have successfully generated it?

Yeah RIS

I agree with that.

I wanted to go back to this "mode change" I was talking about a while back.

we know this change happens due to the changing in capacitance of the WFC.

When the cells are dry you can use your hand to change the capacitance of the system. There was something very strange happening that didn't really make sense until thinking about it now. If you go back and watch the video I published when I was doing tests you see me reach my hand towards the cells I can knock everything out of resonance or into resonance.

This is very important because this is the function between getting the process started and resonance taking place after you change capacitance by creating some initial bubbles.

This also happens in other systems but not quite the same. This one is designed specifically for the water.

Just something to think about. ~Russ

brad. No. It's never 50%

Please take the time to scan my video I posted here.  You can see it change.

If I get time I will go through each 1khz and check the duty. ~Russ

Oh by the way. This "mode change" was NOT somthimg that was "slow" it was like a "snap" in and out of resonance.  Normally when you use your hand to tune resonant circuts it's slow to change. This was not that. ~Russ

Quote from ~Russ on January 14th, 2017, 09:44 AM

brad. No. It's not 50% for most of the time. There might be a spot where it is but not much of the band with.

Please take the time to scan my video I posted here.  You can see it change.

If I get time I will go through each 1khz and check the duty. ~Russ

Quote from ~Russ on January 14th, 2017, 09:44 AM

brad. No. It's never 50%

Please take the time to scan my video I posted here.  You can see it change.

If I get time I will go through each 1khz and check the duty. ~Russ

Done.   See here:
http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2820.msg42061#msg42061