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Thank you Andy!

There is the STL file I used for the power magnectics U60x55x15 C cores

Thanks X-blade The U60x55x15 C core looks like a good core.... And it's cheap...Well with USA shipping (21Eu?) not that cheap.

I might get one If GPS thinks it might work and it's not to big.

If GPS likes it hopefully all of us could use the same core so there will be a standard core for us to use.
Also....... Thanks for the STL.

Hello HHO-Dan.

 I paid 18€ (~$20) including shipping to Europe.
-there are other suppliers but the price is quite expensive.

I draw it on FreeCAD if anyone interested I can put the Project file or change something by request.

Quote from Webmug on January 16th, 2017, 06:17 AM

edited: 01/30/2017
Here is a lot of information of the VIC and WFC. This is a (resonance) AC analysis without the BLOCKING DIODE placed in the circuit.

If you noticed the WFC in the circuit Fig 7-8 Matt posted from the TB. You see the WFC with a Cp and a Re. Cp is the parasitic (parallel) capacitance and not the cell capacitance. Re is the resistance of the cells or ESR (Equivalent series resistance).

Now using a model in LTSpice, I match or balance the B+ and B- choke outputs using the properties of Cd, L of the coils. Two equal |Z| peaks at highest voltage and lowest current. Using a k (core coil coupling factor of 0.53 or 53% based on opposing coil mutual inductance).

The result is a charge curve.

Quote from Webmug on January 16th, 2017, 06:17 AM

So how does it behave in a real setup?

Well it looks like this with blocking diode. (see attachment)

~webmug

Am I mistaken or do you have it figured out?

Not obvious to me what sets the maximum voltage.  Your scope-shot looks like you are approaching 1000 volts.  How do we boost that one order of magnitude?

Quote from Matt Watts on March 15th, 2017, 12:27 PM

Not obvious to me what sets the maximum voltage.

There is a 2kV predetermined maximum voltage claim in Stan's international patent.

I think you can have as much voltage, but to a set upper limit _before_ the plates produce any sparks.

Yep. The international patent advises to set an upper voltage limit.

AFAIK, a Tesla coil has no such limit.

Another keyword in there is "core design."

I'm not sure in that example, how 2kV to 5kV is relevant to an out-of-resonance condition, when any voltage below 2kV could cause the same, with contaminants.

That may need a correction, as well as many in these patents. This patent is from late 1990.

Patents are indeed one-time pad; set in stone, until someone scoops it up.

Hence, source code.

Quote from Matt Watts on January 15th, 2017, 10:11 PM

Dig a little deeper hax.  What frequency does DC operate at?   It will pass through an inductor, but not a capacitor.  So it must be 0 Hertz then right?

Well, if it's zero Hertz and it's not a sine wave, it must contain every possible harmonic in existence, but yet it still cannot pass through a capacitor in steady state.  So let's change the type of capacitor.  Let's use instead a negative inductor, DC can pass through that.  Do we know of such thing that appears to have capacitance yet is a dead short to DC?

We sure do.  Stan's WFC.   Actually a negative inductor.

This negative inductor then at its SRF is a very high impedance and can charge up, but the moment that resonance is taken away, it's a dead short to itself, current flows, the capacity it has accumulated has to go somewhere.  Me thinks it makes gas man.

Here's where things get tricky.  We need the VIC to have the same SRF as the WFC, then by way of sympathetic vibration, the WFC will resonate in-phase with the VIC.  The WFC charges up, then we break resonance with a gate and bam, the WFC charge implodes in on itself.

What we don't want is the VIC and WFC becoming a tank circuit where they need each other to function in resonance.  Instead the VIC is a tank circuit by itself, as is the WFC.  We just want both of them to operate at the same frequency in-phase.  We pump the VIC up to its SRF and the VIC will do the same to the WFC since it's connected.


Just thinking out load here.  If this is all hogwash, I mean no harm.

Very interesting what you've written. Think about what Tesla wrote about stored voltage in coils when the magnetic field is cancelled, think about a capacitor and also a lightning strike. Understanding the difference between ac, dc and electrostatic voltages is important.
Think about a tank circuit between a capacitor and an inductor to begin with, the inductor sets the frequency of the tank because it resonates at its own self resonant frequency and the value of the cap always has to be a match for the reactance of the inductor. But here is an interesting observation about capacitors that scientists have discovered: Quantum entanglement studies have shown that when there is interaction between a positive and negative charge potential such as a capacitor, when Q+ potential sits on a capacitor plate Q- is not a linear consequence of it but an entanglement issue. Entanglement means that two particles that are related through charge react to each other instantaneously even if they are seperated by the entire Universe. It is no secret that Tesla measured the electrostatic voltage charge released from inductors where the magnetic vectors cancelled each other out at many multiples the speed of light. If this is the case then you have to ask yourself what are the wires actually doing in a tank circuit between the cap and inductors?
We know that current travels at just short of light speed in copper and aluminium wire but that is current not voltage, we don't actually know how voltage behaves on its own down a wire because the resistance of the wire itself brings OHM's law into the equasion and current will always return unless you create a super conductor with zero resistance.
The closest thing we know are the writings of Tesla and he states that an inductor has capacitive voltage of Q+ and Q- stored either side of enamel layer using such a layer as a dielectric barrier, he also states that in the cross section of wire is a resistive element which forms the inductance but here is the key which he states:
When an inductor collapses its magnetic field the direction of both current and voltage is linear down the wire BUT When the magnetic field is static through cancellation the inductance field which is across the cross section of the wire remains in a static position because of the dielectric layers and cannot move 90 degrees out of phase to its normal linear function. Tesla states that when this static induction field exists and the coil is locked from linear motion, the voltage field can still form a potential on the outside of the coil if invited to do so.
So the question is, can an inductor self oscillate when the magnetic vector fields cancel each other out, do the fields actually collapse if one field is pitched against another? Stan states in his video that current is restricted because the magnetic fields of the two chokes oppose each other and therefore the movement of current is restricted yet his chokes are resonant?
From this you must conclude that even though the magnetic fields cancel or restrict the movement of current they are still somehow resonating and extending the static voltage field from inside of the coil to the outside of the coil unless of course the whole of the inductor acts as a massive bank of series capacitors. If the latter were the case then the question arises how do you get series static voltage from muliple banks of capacitors to a bank of larger capacitors? Tesla says you can by matching the total electrostatic inductance of the coil which in reality is its dc resistance, Tesla states that H and V vector inductance values are equal in all coils whether static capacitance or linear inductance.
But here is an interesting point getting back to which type of voltage concerns us: If we are dealing with a static dc voltage field such as a massive bank of series capacitors then the rate of which such a bank discharges is primarily related to the reactance of the load which in our case is the WFC. So in essence the dielectric property of the water and the reactance of the WFC determines or offers the VIC a reactance figure not the other way around. Personally speaking from my own thoughts and conclusions Stan has done the following: He's charged a secondary and two chokes with a transformer core, then he's pitched the magnetic field of L1 against L2 against each other not at the charging phase but at the discharging phase with this basic principle: If you place a bifilar coil on a transformer core like Tesla did with his pancake coil and connect the start of the bifilar to another secondary inductor on the same core and the other end of the bifilar to the WFC with a diode in the series circuit, you create an half rectified dc voltage potential on both the bifilar and the secondary at the same time. The bifilar however cannot collapse because one of its wires is being forced by the secondary and the diode in one direction and its other wire is trying to force current in the opposite direction, the bifilar has a north and a south pole and its natural reaction when collapsing is two positives at the end of one winding and two negatives at the other. By connecting a secondary with a diode on the two positive wires you've forced the bifilar into becoming something it isn't which is trying to make it run current in opposite directions on side by side wires when the bifilar poles of north and south dictate two positives at one end and two negative at the other. The only thing that can happen is the magnetic fields of both the bifilar and the secondary become static and that means a static dc voltage charge is trapped because I don't think the coils can self resonate normally.
So what is resonating? Well, it cannot possibly be a normal Linear resonance involving current which is a mathematical calculation involving the H and V vectors anymore because one of those is missing so the calculation has to involve just one vector field which is 90 degrees perpendicular to the charge flow, the cancelled field has to be 180 degrees out of phase to the charge.
So when you are doing calculations for the self resonance of inductors, if you do those calculations on a normal collapsing magnetic fields they will be different for static linear fields in bifilars.

tl;dr

Quote from Matt Watts on January 15th, 2017, 10:11 PM

Dig a little deeper hax.  What frequency does DC operate at?   It will pass through an inductor, but not a capacitor.  So it must be 0 Hertz then right?

Well, if it's zero Hertz and it's not a sine wave, it must contain every possible harmonic in existence, but yet it still cannot pass through a capacitor in steady state.

You need a number of sinusoidal harmonics, at every odd harmonic up to infinity, to represent a square wave, Or Just Plain DC. Square waves are not a natural phenomena.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_wave

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbs_phenomenon

Tank circuit time:

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/alternating-current/chpt-6/resonance-series-parallel-circuits/

Stray capacitance.

Quote

L/R time delay circuit

The idea of this circuit is simple: to “charge” the inductor when the switch is closed. The rate of inductor charging will be set by the ratio L/R, which is the time constant of the circuit in seconds. However, if you were to build such a circuit, you might find unexpected oscillations (AC) of voltage across the inductor when the switch is closed. (Figure below) Why is this? There’s no capacitor in the circuit, so how can we have resonant oscillation with just an inductor, resistor, and battery?

Quote

Inductor ringing due to resonance with stray capacitance.

All inductors contain a certain amount of stray capacitance due to turn-to-turn and turn-to-core insulation gaps. Also, the placement of circuit conductors may create stray capacitance. While clean circuit layout is important in eliminating much of this stray capacitance, there will always be some that you cannot eliminate. If this causes resonant problems (unwanted AC oscillations), added resistance may be a way to combat it. If resistor R is large enough, it will cause a condition of antiresonance, dissipating enough energy to prohibit the inductance and stray capacitance from sustaining oscillations for very long.

The rest there (anti-resonance) is irrelevant to what we want.

Quote

Interestingly enough, the principle of employing resistance to eliminate unwanted resonance is one frequently used in the design of mechanical systems, where any moving object with mass is a potential resonator. A very common application of this is the use of shock absorbers in automobiles. Without shock absorbers, cars would bounce wildly at their resonant frequency after hitting any bump in the road. The shock absorber’s job is to introduce a strong antiresonant effect by dissipating energy hydraulically (in the same way that a resistor dissipates energy electrically).

The one in bold reminds me of the Newman motor, translating mass into energy, producing L.M.D. (below ^[1]), hence:

E=mc²

We don't want to consume energy, with a "resistor dissipating energy electrically." Like T.E.M. below ^[2].

^[1] Wanted: Speed of light, to the power of 2, in the equation above? L.M.D. (dielectric field) waves? A car with no shock absorber? Electrons are not consumed here and there is no resistance. Introduce stray capacitance.

^[2] Unwanted: Introduce resistance, like with a shock absorber for a car, and you get T.E.M. (electromagnetic field) waves slowed to the speed of light constant, without the power of 2, consuming energy with a byproduct of heating, consuming electrons.

Quote from Matt Watts on January 15th, 2017, 11:02 AM

When I got my new bench DMM, one of the first tests I did with it was to place two six inch square plates of stainless steel with some Mylar in between them and measure the capacitance.  The shiny new meter jumped right up to 2000pF--plain as day, that was a capacitor.  So I took the Mylar sheet out and just placed four 1mm spacers on the four corners, so air was now the dielectric.  The shiny new meter couldn't read anything.  I could touch one of the plates and it would see that--what do we call it?  Stray capacitance?

I'm clearly thinking there needs to be resonance within resonance--one works the coils; the other works the cell.  One is a harmonic of the other and that harmonic is probably so high we can't even measure it with the tools we have.

This is the only time, by any member in this thread (or forum), where you mentioned stray capacitance.

DMM much? Creating L.M.D. by your touch? :bliss:

Do a forum search on that and see only several results.

Code: [Select]

"stray capacitance"


Quote from Matt Watts on January 15th, 2017, 11:02 AM

Ever get the feeling the cell is just along for the ride?

Yep. I'm close enough.

:clap2:

Quote from Matt Watts on March 15th, 2017, 12:27 PM

Am I mistaken or do you have it figured out?

Not obvious to me what sets the maximum voltage.  Your scope-shot looks like you are approaching 1000 volts.  How do we boost that one order of magnitude?

You don't need to boost it, step charging is measured on the WFC and not on the input side. If you charge a normal capacitor with pulsed DC network and there is a diode in the charging circuitry on the input side, by definition that diode will stop any form of LC circuit between the input circuitry and the capacitor. The build up of voltage on the capacitor has a step charge effect until it reaches its dielectric breakdown or you discharge it. The rate at which you charge it in a pulsed DC network is voltage/current devided by time.

So............has anyone got their WFC working yet?

At first this may appear off-topic, but I'd like for people to study it carefully.  This document is from modern electronic engineers using their terms as we would recognize them.

http://www.resonant-converters.eu/st-an2644.pdf

Understandably this document isn't specific to the Meyer's VIC, but notice the concepts of resonance (series/parallel), impedance, coupling, turns ratio, duty cycle, feedback, magnetic integration and so on.

I have little doubt if these same engineers were tasked to analyze Meyer's VIC and engineer a solution that could be easily replicated, they could do it.  They know the math and how the components interact.  It's unfortunate we do not have such an engineer onboard here at OSE to take a serious look and provide useful guidance.  I'll bet if we took a WFC and put it in a sealed box and didn't tell the engineer what's inside that box, only that we need high voltage at the terminals, he could do it.  And likely when he did do it, the sealed box would start hissing.

Quote from Matt Watts on March 18th, 2017, 12:52 AM

I have little doubt if these same engineers were tasked to analyze Meyer's VIC and engineer a solution that could be easily replicated, they could do it.

Meyer described all of his observed phenomena in his own language, as an inventor would do.

Modernizing that language, to today's standard, that could be universally understood, is a challenge in its own right.

You are correct, but this decision leads us to two future paths:

• We do this in Stan's language that still cannot be properly translated, which continues the niche-type knowledge.  Or..
• We do the translation now and comprehend what is taking place in this modern electrical engineering language that can be massive distributed.

Seems to me the later method is preferable and would have a much larger receptive audience.  It also eliminates the tendency to refer to this technology as pseudo science.

Once we get everything working, we could publish a white-paper on a proof of concept, to a standardized language.

Quote from Matt Watts on March 15th, 2017, 12:27 PM

Am I mistaken or do you have it figured out?

Not obvious to me what sets the maximum voltage.  Your scope-shot looks like you are approaching 1000 volts.  How do we boost that one order of magnitude?

Figured out what exactly? What I try to understand is how the VIC transformer behaves. Stan talks about unipolar voltage pulses going into the wfc. But how is this accomplished using VIC resonance.


Doing step by step tests and measurements I try to learn.


At this stage I find it not very important on how to boost the voltage but how the VIC behaves. I only follow Stans words in the TB. Somehow this UNLOADED VIC resonates and is producing UNIPOLAR voltages. Even shorting the B+ and B- doesnt effect the resonance...how is this possible you may ask.


The LOAD or WFC is a factor on how the VIC behaves as a complete circuit. But letting the VIC resonate without a LOAD is very interesting and I learned a lot by doing this.


If Stan information is correct the WFC is just seen as a resistance so the VIC is doing the charge separation using the self-capacitance and self-inductance.


It would be great to know if someone has tried to resonate the unloaded vic and can generate unipolar pulses too...little step at a time... and not talk about how high the voltage can be and how much gas was produced etc.


Every answer generates further questions!  :cool:


~webmug

Quote from Webmug on March 18th, 2017, 08:04 AM

Figured out what exactly? What I try to understand is how the VIC transformer behaves. Stan talks about unipolar voltage pulses going into the wfc. But how is this accomplished using VIC resonance.

Unipolar Voltage Pulses...

Let me relate that to my thinking at the moment.

We need the VIC to produce Longitudinal Magneto Dielectric waves, i.e. "Cold Electricity".  These waves should have polarity nodes spaced exactly to match the gap in the resonant cavity.  If you can make them correctly, Ohm's Law is a thing of the past, because these waves have no magnetic component and therefore there is no current.  How is that possible one might ask?  LMD waves propagate at Pi/2 * C.  The magnetic field cannot keep up with the dielectric component and is left in the VIC.

Dustin showed us how to get started:
http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=1670.0

We just need to see the concept within the VIC and manipulate it to get what we are after.

Make a note of this:  Stan referred to the tube sets as wave guides, not electrodes.  There is a reason for this and it should be apparent to everyone by now.  The two tubes setup a dielectric pressure differential; all the water between them is being stressed equally, which is why the bubbles don't form on the metal, the tubes are not electrodes.

I'll bet if we could get Ronnie to take a few minutes to put a magnetic compass near his cell when it is operating, the needle wouldn't budge.  But as he has told us, a fluorescent lamp surely will illuminate.

I'll take the time to chime in here. You are correct Matt, it does not move. And neither does it move around the Vic once tuned correctly. Using a compass setting above the Vic will help one tune the Vic. This is the method I use myself.

BINGO !!!

Just as I thought.  Thanks for popping in Ronnie and confirming this.

The magnetic field is completely locked and symmetric in the core, separated from the dielectric field which runs/pulses through the WFC, then returns to the VIC where it recombines and begins a new cycle.

I'll be willing to make another bet then...

If on the wire, either one, that runs to the WFC, if you strip an inch or so of insulation off and place several neon bulbs touching on that stripped piece of wire. just one lead approximately spaced the same distance as the space between the tubes, you will see the bulbs lit, but every adjacent bulb will have the opposite polarity electrode illuminated.  That test would be proof positive of a LMD wave propagating the wire.  Just like Tesla's stout bars circuit, these wave creates nodes, a.k.a. standing waves.  Placement is everything.  You'll notice the main difference between Tesla's circuit and the VIC is that the VIC is using the capacitance of the chokes instead of actual capacitors.  Doing this probably creates nodes that are much closer together than would be possible with capacitors, which is exactly what we need for the WFC.

I'll even take a SWAG that the blocking diode is necessary since we are using chokes as capacitors instead of actual capacitors.  The LMD wave is flowing in one direction so to keep the magnetic field contained in the VIC core flowing in the same direction, we need a diode.