The thing is simple we can all choose the solution that suits us
or we can find the right answer

The first thing cell capacity is too small for the frequency 0ff 5,6,7 khz

Quote from Matt Watts on January 14th, 2017, 10:14 AM

Done.   See here:
http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2820.msg42061#msg42061

Matt. See my reply there. We need to check this with a SM orgnial component driver. As in mine is slightly different. ~Russ

Quote from HMS-776 on January 13th, 2017, 08:06 AM

Great work guys,

A few observations from my testing this morning:

With the 520pF wfc I hit resonance around 7.6kHz....but the oscillations between pulses are around 23kHz (SRF of the choke coils).
here   I think you should check Does your cell oscillate  because it  looks xc of your cell does not have enough resistance so all power rushes through cell-There is also a reverse scenario if the power in coils is too small then nothing comes to cell         from that it follows it appears that the capacity of your cell should be lower
When I put a 390pF cap in place of the cell I hit resonance at 8.3kHz....the oscillations are the same 8.3kHz.

Quote from Webmug on January 11th, 2017, 12:55 PM

What k parameter do you guys use for calculating the mutual inductance?

~webmug

Ris,

I get what your saying...I have put more power through the circuit but got the same results....Next time I will increase it further.

It's like the circuit doesn't see the cell at all. I can disconnect the cell while the circuit is on and it barely changes the waveforms....all the energy is being stored and oscillating in the coils.

I'm looking at my coil phasing and going over everything again to see if I've made a mistake somewhere.

Matt & Russ,

Great work on the driver circuit....it's interesting to see how the duty cycle changes with frequency.

Quote from HMS-776 on January 15th, 2017, 10:35 AM

Ris,

I get what your saying...I have put more power through the circuit but got the same results....Next time I will increase it further.

It's like the circuit doesn't see the cell at all. I can disconnect the cell while the circuit is on and it barely changes the waveforms....all the energy is being stored and oscillating in the coils.

I'm looking at my coil phasing and going over everything again to see if I've made a mistake somewhere.

Matt & Russ,

Great work on the driver circuit....it's interesting to see how the duty cycle changes with frequency.

This is where it get interesting, if your wfc has the capacitance of your coils... srf....?  :) Loading the VIC has little effect....just a resistance...my guess.

~webmug

Quote from HMS-776 on January 15th, 2017, 10:35 AM

It's like the circuit doesn't see the cell at all. I can disconnect the cell while the circuit is on and it barely changes the waveforms....all the energy is being stored and oscillating in the coils.

Ever get the feeling the cell is just along for the ride?


When I got my new bench DMM, one of the first tests I did with it was to place two six inch square plates of stainless steel with some Mylar in between them and measure the capacitance.  The shiny new meter jumped right up to 2000pF--plain as day, that was a capacitor.  So I took the Mylar sheet out and just placed four 1mm spacers on the four corners, so air was now the dielectric.  The shiny new meter couldn't read anything.  I could touch one of the plates and it would see that--what do we call it?  Stray capacitance?

I'm clearly thinking there needs to be resonance within resonance--one works the coils; the other works the cell.  One is a harmonic of the other and that harmonic is probably so high we can't even measure it with the tools we have.

Quote from Matt Watts on January 15th, 2017, 11:02 AM

Ever get the feeling the cell is just along for the ride?


When I got my new bench DMM, one of the first tests I did with it was to place two six inch square plates of stainless steel with some Mylar in between them and measure the capacitance.  The shiny new meter jumped right up to 2000pF--plain as day, that was a capacitor.  So I took the Mylar sheet out and just placed four 1mm spacers on the four corners, so air was now the dielectric.  The shiny new meter couldn't read anything.  I could touch one of the plates and it would see that--what do we call it?  Stray capacitance?

I'm clearly thinking there needs to be resonance within resonance--one works the coils; the other works the cell.  One is a harmonic of the other and that harmonic is probably so high we can't even measure it with the tools we have.

@Matt,
This should give you an idea on what kind of Impedance the current restricts....Stan wrote LC resonance (|Z|=R series, Z is at its minimum=R value, current maximum) but those coils ring on the self-capacitance and self-inductance (parallel where |Z| is at its maximum value) so current is minimum on both sides. Confused?  :roll:. That's why those coils |Z| peaks are maximum in the graphs I once plotted.

~webmug

I guess my point is we don't have a clear comprehension of impedance.

Here is an impedance device, a carbon resonator:


But what frequency does it resonate at?

I can't measure any frequency with such a device, but I know it has impedance.  And since we can't seem to measure the frequency, we just call it a resistor.  I'm guessing it resonates at the same frequency of a DC source, like a battery, again way too high to measure.

Now if I put a square wave signal through this device, I have a modulated signal.  You say, "You're crazy man.  What's the carrier frequency?"   I can't answer that, because I can't measure it.

When I put straight DC into an electrolysis cell, I also have a carrier signal with possible sub-harmonics.  One of those sub-harmonics is probably acting at the correct frequency to split the water molecules.  Which one?   With an infinite number of them, no wonder we lose so much power with electrolysis.  But what if we filtered all the sub-harmonics from the DC carrier except for the one that does the job?  Bet that wouldn't take much power.  You think maybe that's what the VIC actually does?  It's a big band-pass filter?  It eliminates all the components of a DC carrier leaving only the frequency needed to agitate a water molecule into pieces?

Just a simple viewpoint change.  Could we be looking at the VIC the wrong way?

We have concepts of capacitors, resistors, inductors, diodes, etc,  None of those actually exist in the real world.  They are theoretical concepts.  Real components share characteristics of most all of those theoretical concepts.  They are all resonators of some sort with real impedances having real frequencies.

Webmug,

The only problem is the coils have a much lower capacitance (30-35pF) while the cell has 520pF.

Quote from Matt Watts on January 15th, 2017, 11:59 AM

I guess my point is we don't have a clear comprehension of impedance.

Here is a impedance device, a carbon resonator:


But what frequency does it resonate at?

I can't measure any frequency with such a device, but I know it has impedance.  And since we can't seem to measure the frequency, we just call it a resistor.  I'm guessing it resonates at the same frequency of a DC source, like a battery, again way too high to measure.

Now if I put a square wave signal through this device, I have a modulated signal.  You say, "You're crazy man.  What's the carrier frequency?"   I can't answer that, because I can't measure it.

When I put straight DC into an electrolysis cell, I also have a carrier signal with possible sub-harmonics.  One of those sub-harmonics is probably acting at the correct frequency to split the water molecules.  Which one?   With an infinite number of them, no wonder we lose so much power with electrolysis.  But what if we filtered all the sub-harmonics from the DC carrier except for the one that does the job?  Bet that wouldn't take much power.  You think maybe that's what the VIC actually does?  It's a big band-pass filter?  It eliminates all the components of a DC carrier leaving only the frequency needed to agitate a water molecule into pieces?

Just a simple viewpoint change.  Could we be looking at the VIC the wrong way?

Well your example is kinda extream, but it would have a srf or inductance or capacitance. Maybe in the range you cant measure, true.


For the VIC coils there is impedance on a frequency we can measure, were it will be inductive or capacitive...for inductor we want inductive etc. but it will have a SRF where the |z| peak will be. Our coils have both in a sufficient range to let it resonate. http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/self-resonant_frequency_of_inductors.htm

Quote from HMS-776 on January 15th, 2017, 12:14 PM

Webmug,

The only problem is the coils have a much lower capacitance (30-35pF) while the cell has 520pF.

How did you determine the coil self-capacitance?

I did it using 3 different methods I explained in an earlier post, all 3 gave me similar results.

Quote from HMS-776 on January 11th, 2017, 03:24 PM

Russ & Webmug,

Webmug you are correct. You can't get accurate measurements using an RLC meter. But I was not looking for exact measurements, just trying to rule out the source of resonance I was getting between 20-30kHz.

I did that using 3 different methods.
1. The ring test
2. Test with signal gen, oscope, and a current pickup coil (current sense transformer) looking for peak currents.
3. Physical measurements

All three tests showed that what I was seeing was indeed the SRF of the choke coils. This led me to find out that at one point I accidentally swapped my chokes so that they were opposing each other.

As far as the SRF goes I don't think it has a role in how the VIC operates, I think the coil capacitance plays an important role though.

There is another coil resonance that could be occurring which happens when the coils capacitance couples with a nearby object and forms a series resonant circuit.

Personally I think the VIC resonance occurs like Stan says, between the L1 choke and the cell. But it appears that more has to happen for the circuit to see the cell as a capacitor. Like I mentioned before as you scan through the frequency range you see a multitude of peaks on the fft. Many of the peaks are about the same amplitude and no clearly defined resonant peaks appear. There's got to be something occurring in the cell that causes it to become a real capacitance....otherwise all your doing is putting square waves into a non linear resistance, that's why you'll see a multitude of peaks but no clearly defined resonant point. What your seeing are smaller oscillations of the square waves being broken up into an infinite number of sine waves (Fourier series ).....the resistances in the cell match to some of those frequencies  and show up on the scope.

My scope only goes to 40MHz. The circuit operates in the audio range 1-20kHz, but when testing I have measured frequencies above 10MHz at very low amplitudes.

You wrote the SRF hasnt a role in how the vic operates, so ask youself, what is the impedance on the srf?
Those three methods do not specify how you found the self capacitance of coils...you have two unknown variables L and C at a srf, can you elaborate more?

I did not get exact values I was just trying to rule out where the resonance was coming from.

In my vic I can hit resonance around 20-25kHz...When I hit that resonance I can remove the cell and the circuit is not affected. If I put a direct short in place of the cell the result is the same.

So, in my VIC I continue to see peaks in the 20-25kHz region. This even after I have changed the inductance values of all the coils several times, removed them from their box, tested each coil individually etc.


IS ANYONE ELSE SEEING PEAKS BETWEEN 20-30kHz?

Brad. Did you scan through the video I posted?

It's the live recording. Its long but you can scan through it.

Mine as it is is happy around 23khz. If I rember right. This is with some tape inbtween the cores. I will play with this gap to see how we can change it. With no gap I should be able to resonate much lower. More inductance. ...

But u can see all the resonant F I see from the ping test. Each coil is different. ~Russ

I scanned through the video a bit....Man that was a while ago, 2014. Cool to see you got hv out of it.

So I'm not the only one seeing the the 20-30kHz peaks...I wonder if Ronnie has seen them in his circuit?

Is there anyone else here that is seeing them? 

Yeah. Well that one too. Lol

Here this one it was from last week

Again you will need to scan it. I think I posted it on the other thred. My fault.

https://youtu.be/PBtbj6kzzHA

I show how it "jumps" out of and in to resonance. About 48 min in
 I find quite interesting. It also shows the duty cycle changing.

Do watch it and tell me if thses things you are Also seeing Or if it's way off.

~Russ

Russ, my circuit does that same thing where it pops into a resonant frequency of some kind.....

Quote from Webmug on January 15th, 2017, 12:19 PM

http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/self-resonant_frequency_of_inductors.htm

That's some good deep stuff there Webmug.  I suggest people read it and think deeply about what it infers.  I'll give you a hint:  capacity, which is a word Tesla used quite often.  This capacity can be either inductive or capacitive, plus or minus.  If you think about it hard enough, you will question why we have two separate terms for the same thing:  Farad & Henry.  They are the same thing with just a slight twist:  A negative Farad will not allow DC to pass, but a negative Henry will.  Now think about what DC is or must be?

DC is above a reference 0 volts. DC can come from a rectified AC source, that undershoots the reference 0 volts.

A sinusoidal wave can be DC offset above the reference 0 volts, and still be considered DC. A sinusoidal wave clocked at a 50/60 cycle period is known in AC systems, but is not DC when not rectified or DC offset.

The reference 0 volts can change to create a differential, not single-ended, signal. A typical sound card has one single-ended channel line, while the ground line is tied to circuit 0 volts. If you connected a speaker to both signal-ended channels, left & right, you would hear the difference from both channels.

Dig a little deeper hax.  What frequency does DC operate at?   It will pass through an inductor, but not a capacitor.  So it must be 0 Hertz then right?

Well, if it's zero Hertz and it's not a sine wave, it must contain every possible harmonic in existence, but yet it still cannot pass through a capacitor in steady state.  So let's change the type of capacitor.  Let's use instead a negative inductor, DC can pass through that.  Do we know of such thing that appears to have capacitance yet is a dead short to DC?

We sure do.  Stan's WFC.   Actually a negative inductor.

This negative inductor then at its SRF is a very high impedance and can charge up, but the moment that resonance is taken away, it's a dead short to itself, current flows, the capacity it has accumulated has to go somewhere.  Me thinks it makes gas man.

Here's where things get tricky.  We need the VIC to have the same SRF as the WFC, then by way of sympathetic vibration, the WFC will resonate in-phase with the VIC.  The WFC charges up, then we break resonance with a gate and bam, the WFC charge implodes in on itself.

What we don't want is the VIC and WFC becoming a tank circuit where they need each other to function in resonance.  Instead the VIC is a tank circuit by itself, as is the WFC.  We just want both of them to operate at the same frequency in-phase.  We pump the VIC up to its SRF and the VIC will do the same to the WFC since it's connected.


Just thinking out load here.  If this is all hogwash, I mean no harm.

Voltage Intensifier Charge-Pump Circuit

An LC circuit is already established with the secondary and chokes. The WFC comes along for the ride.

You may need an initial amp draw at the primary to start up the VIC circuit. Then, convert what you drew to higher voltage, low consuming amps/electrons. Then, at resonance, you won't need the power supply.

Quote from haxar on January 15th, 2017, 10:20 PM

Voltage Intensifier Charge-Pump Circuit

That's a good name for it yes.  Or possibly Charge Shuttling Circuit.