Video #11, tends to support my belief that the power, force, and speed of gas expansion is inversely proportional to the duration of the spark. When the duration of the spark is short, the compressive force of the gas grows large. A very short spark is a powerful spark. This powerful spark will produce a powerful and forceful expansion of the gas.

To get gas expansion to the maximum, the duration of the spark must be reduced to the minimum duration possible.

To optimize gas performance, I recommend a spark rise time under 50 nanoseconds with a very short duration to produce the most powerful explosive and forceful expansion of the gas.

Video #11 shows that a continuous high voltage spark does not cause gas expansion, but a short and powerful spark with a very short duration does.

It is not the energy that the spark carries in joules. It is how fast this energy is delivered to the gas.

This is analogous to how explosives perform.

Low explosives are compounds where the rate of decomposition proceeds through the material at less than the speed of sound. The decomposition is propagated by a flame front (deflagration) which travels much more slowly through the explosive material than a shock wave of a high explosive.

High explosives are explosive materials that detonate, meaning that the explosive shock front passes through the material at a supersonic speed.

Some theory

Because of the Pauli Exclusion Principle, no two electrons can orbit the atom on the same quantum level.

Electron degeneracy pressure is a particular manifestation of the more general phenomenon of quantum degeneracy pressure. The Pauli Exclusion Principle disallows two half integer spin particles (fermions, that is electrons) from simultaneously occupying the same quantum state. The resulting emergent repulsive force is manifested as a pressure against compression of matter into smaller volumes of space.

Electron degeneracy pressure results from the same underlying mechanism that defines the electron orbital structure of elemental matter.

When electrons are squeezed too close together, the exclusion principle requires them to have increased energy levels. To add another electron to a given volume requires raising an electron's energy level to make room, and this requirement for energy to compress the material appears as a pressure.

A big spark packs large numbers of electrons into fixed volume in a very short amount of time and the gas explodes due to  increasing electrostatic repulsion.

At any given instant, the more electrons that are added to a fixed volume of gas, the bigger the gas atoms gets in that fixed timeframe. This causes electrostatic pressure increase as all the atoms of the gas grow bigger at the same fixed instant of time.

If the spark pulse is short and powerful enough, an electrostatic shock wave may be produced that may then result in an intense level of compression and electron nuclear screening which then results in  associated nuclear reactions.

It is well known the lightning produces gamma rays, neutrons, and transmutation of elements.

This electrostatic shock wave and electron screening of the nuclear barrier may be causing this type of nuclear activity.  

Detection of helium in Russ’s gas will inform us that nuclear fusion is occurring.

We will need Russ to learn spectroscopic analysis of the gas flash to make that experimental determination.

Also, if the energy output of the popper including the feedback current is greater than the input energy of the spark, then fusion of hydrogen must be happening.

Russ should measure this input/output energy ratio to see if the popper is an over unity device.  

Some info on plasma shockwaves

http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Collisionless_shock_wave

 I don't know about transmutation of the gas itself. That will have to be researched. If there was a transmutation I would think that there would be a point where it wouldn't work any more. And it seemed like it was still going working fairly good except where there was a residual heating of the gas from the plasma. From the looks of the blasts from the cap bank it seems the plasma was there around the spark gap but I hesitate to say that it filled the entire chamber. Having the camera up close while it goes off could shed some light on that.But the gas will have to be analyzed after quite a few blasts to see the composition of the gas.

 I don't think besides the heating of the chamber and the normal expansion of the gas from that is what the residual pressure is from. If I remember correctly the process to load the gas was to vacuum out the air then replace the air with hydrogen to normal atmosphere. I don't think Russ had a vacuum while it was operating.

 What my suggestion was that if there was as strong of a movement backwards as there was in the forward direction minus the heating of the gas which was very apparent after 20 or so firings of the chamber, it could be harnessed in both directions. Almost like the wheel mechanism of a steam train.

An article on plasma shoch waves:

(July 18, 2012) — Throughout the universe more than 99 percent of matter looks nothing like what's on Earth. Instead of materials we can touch and see, instead of motions we intuitively expect like a ball rolling down a hill, or a cup that sits still on a table, most of the universe is governed by rules that react more obviously to such things as magnetic force or electrical charge. It would be as if your cup was magnetized, perhaps attracted to a metal ceiling above, and instead of resting, it floats up, hovering somewhere in the air, balanced between the upward force and the pull of gravity below.

This material that pervades the universe, making up the stars and our sun, and also -- far less densely, of course -- the vast interstellar spaces in between, is called plasma. Plasmas are similar to gases, and indeed are made of familiar stuff such as hydrogen, helium, and even heavier elements like iron, but each particle carries electrical charge and the particles tend to move together as they do in a fluid. Understanding the way the plasma moves under the combined laws of motion we know on Earth and the less intuitive (to most Earthlings, at least) electromagnetic forces, lies at the heart of understanding the events that spur giant explosions on the sun as well as changes in Earth's own magnetic environment -- the magnetosphere.

Understanding this mysterious world of plasma, however, is not easy. With its complex rules of motion, the study of plasmas is rife with minute details to be teased out.

"Which particles are moving, what is the source of energy for the motion, how does a moving wave interact with the particles themselves, do the wave fields rotate to the right or to the left -- all of these get classified," says Lynn Wilson who is a space plasma physicist at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md.

Wilson is the first author of a paper in Geophysical Research Letters that was published on March 12, 2012. Using data from the WAVES instrument on NASA's Wind mission, he and his colleagues have discovered evidence for a type of plasma wave moving faster than theory predicted it could move. The research suggests that a different process than expected, electrical instabilities in the plasma, may be driving the waves. This offers scientists another tool to understand how heat and energy can be transported through plasma.

For the study, Wilson examined coronal mass ejections (CMEs) -- clouds of solar material that burst off the sun and travel through space -- that move so much faster than the background solar wind that they create shock waves. These shock waves are similar to those produced by a supersonic jet when it moves faster than the speed of sound in our atmosphere.

"A bow shock is a little like a snow plow," says Adam Szabo, a space scientist at Goddard who is a co-author on the paper and also the project scientist for Wind. "The wave picks up particles that are traveling more slowly and speeds them up, piling them up in front as it moves."

Of course, the snow plow is a non-magnetic analogy, and that's where things get sticky. With a snow plow one would never expect a cloud of snowflakes to magically lift up from the shock and begin to speed ahead, streaming down the street faster than the rest of the plow's pile. But in the magnetized gas ahead of the shock, Wind observed a large wave in the plasma -- a wave moving faster than it should be able to travel if it had been made by the shock.

The wave in this case is called a Whistler wave. (Classification, for those who want the nitty gritty: an electromagnetic wave, carried by electrons, right polarized, propagates obliquely to the magnetic field.) Since the wave couldn't be created by the shock, the Wind observations suggest that perhaps the waves are created by instabilities out in front of the shock. This is not in itself surprising. The Wind data used by Wilson can measure magnetic field information at 1875 samples per second and new qualities of observations always produce new sights. But the team is surprised by how large the waves are.

"The waves are massive," says Wilson. "They are almost as big as the shock itself."

Such size means the waves may play a larger role than previously thought in the quest to understand the ways that different types of energy converts from one form to another. In this context, two kinds of energy are of interest: bulk kinetic energy, which relates to the collective movement of a bulk of particles, and random kinetic energy, which relates to the speeds at which particles move with respect to each other. Increased random kinetic energy is, in fact, the very definition of heating, since temperature measurements are a characterization of how fast particles are moving within any given material. Large amplitude Whistler waves are known to cause both bulk acceleration and an increase in random kinetic energy, that is, the very temperature of a material.

So, this suggests that shocks and the instabilities they create may play a larger role in transferring the energy from the plasma's bulk movement into heat, than previously thought. Wilson believes that the instabilities caused something called perpendicular ion heating -- a process that increases the random kinetic energy of the positively-charged ions in a direction perpendicular to the background magnetic field. The waves also added energy to the negatively-charged electrons -- with the greatest effects observed not being heating, the random kinetic energy, but bulk acceleration in a direction parallel to the magnetic field.

"The same type of wave-particle interaction is thought to happen in solar flares, the heating of the sun's corona, and supernova blast waves," says Wilson. "All of these energizations have very similar properties. Now we have evidence that these Whistler-like fluctuations may be causing heating in all these places."

Understanding the mechanics behind all these events requires collating and categorizing an entire zoo of waves and processes. Wilson's work may be but one piece of a larger puzzle, but together, teasing out the motions of plasmas will help scientists describe the laws of motion that govern the entire universe.

 

you might want to read this first before going to far into plasma and such.

http://www.kronos-press.com/juergens/k0801-electric-i.htm

Quote from Axil on September 29th, 2012, 03:18 PM

In video #11, Russ said that the piston only rises up 4 inches out of the 6 total inches of cylinder displacement.

The gas on the inside face (the hydrogen side) of the piston, the side where the electrodes are located and where the gas expands is the volume into which the spark discharges.

The gas on the outside side of the piston is air. When the piston rises, the air will be rapidly compressed since the seal on the rod is tight. In that short timeframe, the air cannot escape rapidly enough from the top of the cylinder to avoid air compression. This volume of air will be compressed and when the pressure of the hydrogen and the air are equal, the piston will stop its rise.

This resistive air pressure due to the compression of the air by the top of the piston is the reason why the piston does not travel up the entire 6 inch cylinder displacement length.

This air column serves as a spring to return the piston most of the way down during the relaxation of the compression process; but not all the way down because a small amount of air will have escaped through the rod seal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT-94c1Q6Ms&feature=player_embedded

remember the hoses that rus used on his hydrogen cell, the long tubed cell with vortex ventri. heheh use ventry tubes, a type of wave guide. any wave guide:P:P:P will do... you get it..  perhaps old valve off a cylinder head. lol.

Quote from freethisone on September 29th, 2012, 08:30 PM

Quote from Axil on September 29th, 2012, 03:18 PM

In video #11, Russ said that the piston only rises up 4 inches out of the 6 total inches of cylinder displacement.

The gas on the inside face (the hydrogen side) of the piston, the side where the electrodes are located and where the gas expands is the volume into which the spark discharges.

The gas on the outside side of the piston is air. When the piston rises, the air will be rapidly compressed since the seal on the rod is tight. In that short timeframe, the air cannot escape rapidly enough from the top of the cylinder to avoid air compression. This volume of air will be compressed and when the pressure of the hydrogen and the air are equal, the piston will stop its rise.

This resistive air pressure due to the compression of the air by the top of the piston is the reason why the piston does not travel up the entire 6 inch cylinder displacement length.

This air column serves as a spring to return the piston most of the way down during the relaxation of the compression process; but not all the way down because a small amount of air will have escaped through the rod seal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT-94c1Q6Ms&feature=player_embedded

remember the hoses that rus used on his hydrogen cell, the long tubed cell with vortex ventri. heheh use ventry tubes, a type of wave guide. any wave guide:P:P:P will do... you get it..  perhaps old valve off a cylinder head. lol.

Here is the writeup on the plasmatron

http://www.rexresearch.com/chernetskii/chernetskii.htm

Quote from freethisone on September 29th, 2012, 08:30 PM

Quote from Axil on September 29th, 2012, 03:18 PM

In video #11, Russ said that the piston only rises up 4 inches out of the 6 total inches of cylinder displacement.

The gas on the inside face (the hydrogen side) of the piston, the side where the electrodes are located and where the gas expands is the volume into which the spark discharges.

The gas on the outside side of the piston is air. When the piston rises, the air will be rapidly compressed since the seal on the rod is tight. In that short timeframe, the air cannot escape rapidly enough from the top of the cylinder to avoid air compression. This volume of air will be compressed and when the pressure of the hydrogen and the air are equal, the piston will stop its rise.

This resistive air pressure due to the compression of the air by the top of the piston is the reason why the piston does not travel up the entire 6 inch cylinder displacement length.

This air column serves as a spring to return the piston most of the way down during the relaxation of the compression process; but not all the way down because a small amount of air will have escaped through the rod seal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT-94c1Q6Ms&feature=player_embedded

remember the hoses that rus used on his hydrogen cell, the long tubed cell with vortex ventri. heheh use ventry tubes, a type of wave guide. any wave guide:P:P:P will do... you get it..  perhaps old valve off a cylinder head. lol.

Here is the writeup on the plasmatron

http://www.rexresearch.com/chernetskii/chernetskii.htm

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on September 29th, 2012, 12:10 PM

Hydrogen To Plasma Will Do Mechanical Work??

This unit weighs 70lb + so the force is lifting all that weight when the piston goes up and tries to retract it lifts the rest of the unit with it. Off the table...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBWiWftGknI

Don't know why the first bit got messed up with the audio... Ah well. To much EMP! Lol

Enjoy, ~Russ

good job russ maybe try the papp mix with some h2 and take care be safe god bless

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on September 29th, 2012, 12:10 PM

Hydrogen To Plasma Will Do Mechanical Work??

This unit weighs 70lb + so the force is lifting all that weight when the piston goes up and tries to retract it lifts the rest of the unit with it. Off the table...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBWiWftGknI

Don't know why the first bit got messed up with the audio... Ah well. To much EMP! Lol

Enjoy, ~Russ

:lol:

You show them Russ :D
The Keshe foundation's plasma tech springs to mind here.
Keep up the good work!!!

Quote from Lynx

You show them Russ :D
The Keshe foundation's plasma tech springs to mind here.
Keep up the good work!!!

Yes :) look in the Keshe patent:


4 noble gasses in vacuum chamber H , He, Ne, Ar

Russ you need electromagnets on the core to create flaying source :)



cheers

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on September 29th, 2012, 12:10 PM

Hydrogen To Plasma Will Do Mechanical Work??

This unit weighs 70lb + so the force is lifting all that weight when the piston goes up and tries to retract it lifts the rest of the unit with it. Off the table...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBWiWftGknI

Don't know why the first bit got messed up with the audio... Ah well. To much EMP! Lol

Enjoy, ~Russ

Actually, here's a thought:
Bolt the thing safely to the floor (without the dampers).
Then see how high it can toss a weight of let's say 1 pound.
Then compare how much energy you put in to the system for that one shot  
(from your wall socket, as that's what you pay money for) with the energy
needed to toss the weight "that" high.
Break some laws of physics, just for the fun of it :D

zerwel
Chuck,
1.  Buy big Cap (Ex: Cornell Dubilier 12000uF 450 VDC eBay $60)
2.  Plug in 2 "Russ" type welding rods w/Teflon tube and compression fittings,
maximum distance apart.
3.  Pull out HV supply from old CRT TV and feed to Cap. through double
pole, double throw LARGE relay. (On Left Pair - All Off - On Right Pair)
4.  Thoroughly flush with Barbecue Propane.
6.  Close gas feed and bleed valves.
7.  Charge Caps to 400 volts, relay Left Pair. Disconnect DC Supply,
relay middle OFF.
8.  Run your spark ionization 10 minutes.
9.  Flip relay Right Pair to discharge through welding rods.
10. Use cement block shield and perform this outside.

I also was badly harmed by nasty Hydrogen as you recounted some time ago.
The spark plug arc through any hydrocarbon fluid is well known to produce
very active ionized Hydrogen which when jolted by Cavitation, RFG or
Capacitor discharge will create that elusive pop. Keep the area clean of Nickel
dust to avoid Proton fusion into its nucleus. That gives lots of excess heat or
in some cases an explosion.
Let those plantains of yours blacken and fry them up with honey and
cinnamon.
Aloha,
Chan

Hmm i think that instead of throwing a whole lot of theory on Russ, he knows what he has to do these couple of weeks ahead.

Why not let us go back to the goal we subscibed, we can do more usefull things now:

Like gathering all the bits and pieces of Russ his setup into a document to get other people to replicate this.

Like helping the ones that are also trying to get Pap to work, like KC and Zerwell

Like promoting this proof of concept to other forums and site's and whatever.

Don't forget we are fighting the dragon... so we also need some focused efforts?!

Quote from FaradayEZ on September 30th, 2012, 06:39 AM

Hmm i think that instead of throwing a whole lot of theory on Russ, he knows what he has to do these couple of weeks ahead.

Why not let us go back to the goal we subscibed, we can do more usefull things now:

Like gathering all the bits and pieces of Russ his setup into a document to get other people to replicate this.

Like helping the ones that are also trying to get Pap to work, like KC and Zerwell

Like promoting this proof of concept to other forums and site's and whatever.

Don't forget we are fighting the dragon... so we also need some focused efforts?!

I am not sure if this is the correct local to my post, but could we add the measure of output versus input energy?

Quote from FaradayEZ on September 30th, 2012, 06:39 AM

Hmm i think that instead of throwing a whole lot of theory on Russ, he knows what he has to do these couple of weeks ahead.

Why not let us go back to the goal we subscibed, we can do more usefull things now:

Like gathering all the bits and pieces of Russ his setup into a document to get other people to replicate this.

Like helping the ones that are also trying to get Pap to work, like KC and Zerwell

Like promoting this proof of concept to other forums and site's and whatever.

Don't forget we are fighting the dragon... so we also need some focused efforts?!

Well let me be very clear about this. Without a very good theory and a plan you have no idea where you are going and that is not very good to do. We must think first then do. If you don't then going blindly into tinkering can and will most likes get you and others hurt.
 I wouldn't go pushing a replication already when Russ hasn't even started to investigate this. Let Russ do what he does best and investigate what he has in front of him.
 The theories and possible suggestions are to help Russ understand the things he is getting into. Most of what I post is stuff others have done and observed which might help him to understand the processes in his device under investigation. He needs this to be able to ask the right questions and find those answers.

 As for promoting the ideas and other stuff to other forums, Why would you do that before he is even started to investigate.

 Case in point: investigating the sparks happening after a blast from the cap bank from the caps themselves. This has to be the best way to see what is going on in the chamber on the return stroke. You got to figure that the spacing between the cap posts has to be 2 inches maybe? Thats a very high value for the voltage then in the return stroke and thats worth investigating.

Quote from jbignes5 on September 30th, 2012, 06:56 AM

Quote from FaradayEZ on September 30th, 2012, 06:39 AM

Hmm i think that instead of throwing a whole lot of theory on Russ, he knows what he has to do these couple of weeks ahead.

Why not let us go back to the goal we subscibed, we can do more usefull things now:

Like gathering all the bits and pieces of Russ his setup into a document to get other people to replicate this.

Like helping the ones that are also trying to get Pap to work, like KC and Zerwell

Like promoting this proof of concept to other forums and site's and whatever.

Don't forget we are fighting the dragon... so we also need some focused efforts?!

Well let me be very clear about this. Without a very good theory and a plan you have no idea where you are going and that is not very good to do. We must think first then do. If you don't then going blindly into tinkering can and will most likes get you and others hurt.
 I wouldn't go pushing a replication already when Russ hasn't even started to investigate this. Let Russ do what he does best and investigate what he has in front of him.
 The theories and possible suggestions are to help Russ understand the things he is getting into. Most of what I post is stuff others have done and observed which might help him to understand the processes in his device under investigation. He needs this to be able to ask the right questions and find those answers.

 As for promoting the ideas and other stuff to other forums, Why would you do that before he is even started to investigate.

 Case in point: investigating the sparks happening after a blast from the cap bank from the caps themselves. This has to be the best way to see what is going on in the chamber on the return stroke. You got to figure that the spacing between the cap posts has to be 2 inches maybe? Thats a very high value for the voltage then in the return stroke and thats worth investigating.

Now why the hell would it be so bad to spread the word around about this to other forums?
It's not like it's the first time someone has done this, the difference could be that
perhaps all the documents that you need in order to be able to replicate this yourself
will be made available for ANYONE who so chooses to download and have a go at it themselves.
There's a reason to why this is an open source forum, and what FaradayEZ here
suggests is just the right thing to do.

Quote from jbignes5 on September 30th, 2012, 06:56 AM

Quote from FaradayEZ on September 30th, 2012, 06:39 AM

Hmm i think that instead of throwing a whole lot of theory on Russ, he knows what he has to do these couple of weeks ahead.

Why not let us go back to the goal we subscibed, we can do more usefull things now:

Like gathering all the bits and pieces of Russ his setup into a document to get other people to replicate this.

Like helping the ones that are also trying to get Pap to work, like KC and Zerwell

Like promoting this proof of concept to other forums and site's and whatever.

Don't forget we are fighting the dragon... so we also need some focused efforts?!

Well let me be very clear about this. Without a very good theory and a plan you have no idea where you are going and that is not very good to do. We must think first then do. If you don't then going blindly into tinkering can and will most likes get you and others hurt.
 I wouldn't go pushing a replication already when Russ hasn't even started to investigate this. Let Russ do what he does best and investigate what he has in front of him.
 The theories and possible suggestions are to help Russ understand the things he is getting into. Most of what I post is stuff others have done and observed which might help him to understand the processes in his device under investigation. He needs this to be able to ask the right questions and find those answers.

 As for promoting the ideas and other stuff to other forums, Why would you do that before he is even started to investigate.

 Case in point: investigating the sparks happening after a blast from the cap bank from the caps themselves. This has to be the best way to see what is going on in the chamber on the return stroke. You got to figure that the spacing between the cap posts has to be 2 inches maybe? Thats a very high value for the voltage then in the return stroke and thats worth investigating.

(it feels like you haven't seen much papp engine's running.. please go to the sites)

The Rohner boys don't even understand the reaction fully..and that's after 30 years looking at it... we don't have the time to really understand it..and why should we? If its harmless (radiation-wise) and it works then go ahead and help the world.

And if Russ validated the concept, then we should also validate that the engine's the Rohners build where genuine!

So we are not jumping the gun when we want to move forward

The only thing we need is the input output picture..... that's the first thing everybody else will want to know.

Quote from FaradayEZ on September 30th, 2012, 06:39 AM

Hmm i think that instead of throwing a whole lot of theory on Russ, he knows what he has to do these couple of weeks ahead.

Why not let us go back to the goal we subscibed, we can do more usefull things now:

Like gathering all the bits and pieces of Russ his setup into a document to get other people to replicate this.

Like helping the ones that are also trying to get Pap to work, like KC and Zerwell

Like promoting this proof of concept to other forums and site's and whatever.

Don't forget we are fighting the dragon... so we also need some focused efforts?!

I agree EZ, I posted this discovery on the Keshe forum and asked a question hoping Keshe will answer.:cool::D

Quote from jbignes5 on September 30th, 2012, 06:56 AM

Quote from FaradayEZ on September 30th, 2012, 06:39 AM

Hmm i think that instead of throwing a whole lot of theory on Russ, he knows what he has to do these couple of weeks ahead.

Why not let us go back to the goal we subscibed, we can do more usefull things now:

Like gathering all the bits and pieces of Russ his setup into a document to get other people to replicate this.

Like helping the ones that are also trying to get Pap to work, like KC and Zerwell

Like promoting this proof of concept to other forums and site's and whatever.

Don't forget we are fighting the dragon... so we also need some focused efforts?!

Well let me be very clear about this. Without a very good theory and a plan you have no idea where you are going and that is not very good to do. We must think first then do. If you don't then going blindly into tinkering can and will most likes get you and others hurt.
 I wouldn't go pushing a replication already when Russ hasn't even started to investigate this. Let Russ do what he does best and investigate what he has in front of him.
 The theories and possible suggestions are to help Russ understand the things he is getting into. Most of what I post is stuff others have done and observed which might help him to understand the processes in his device under investigation. He needs this to be able to ask the right questions and find those answers.

 As for promoting the ideas and other stuff to other forums, Why would you do that before he is even started to investigate.

 Case in point: investigating the sparks happening after a blast from the cap bank from the caps themselves. This has to be the best way to see what is going on in the chamber on the return stroke. You got to figure that the spacing between the cap posts has to be 2 inches maybe? Thats a very high value for the voltage then in the return stroke and thats worth investigating.

I agree with some of this as well, meaning safety is always first and ones posting could help another avert an explosion, being subjected to gamma rays or death, we would not want that to happen to anyone "ever". I do think we should spread the word of this, and we must remember we are open source and along with the YouTube video#11 it's out there already, let's just promote it more. Russ can and will chose what he can use and put aside for now and maybe use at a later date, so with that being said, I want to thank all of you for the very helpful posts, Jeff.:cool::D:P

Quote from rfnreynders on September 29th, 2012, 03:37 PM

Hmmm...

I saw video 11 and the increased power output with hydrogen.
It made me think.

Hydrogen is the smallest atom we now.
With the least amount of electrons per atom.

So in theory, in a plasma enviroment hydrogen atoms are the easiest to strip from their electrons.
This is why you got a good reaction, even without ionizing the gas.

Then what happens is that after the plasma reaction, electrons want to fall back into the orbit of the atom...
But in the time, the hydrogen atoms were stripped of their electrons, they're cores of the hydrogen didn't repel each other, because the repelling happens due to the electrons that are negatively charged. (like magnets repelling the same charge)
Without the electrons ( in a plasma state) all atoms are neutral, but stil move and so can collide with other atoms.

So some of the hydrogen atoms without the electrons where so near to each other, that after the plasma state they formed a new atom.
Helium.
So, within this new state, the helium atoms had to get electrons from the surrounding. This  made the whole device into an electron sucking machine, causing a differential voltage. That is why you had the voltage kick back.
That is why the pressure in the device increases, because the atoms form Helium, and this is a "bigger" gas.
Stil the reaction can continue, because just a few hydrogen atoms reconbined into Helium AND also the helium can be totally stripped of its electrons, giving the oppertunity to form even bigger atoms.
I am not surprised is you find a lot of elements in the gas after the plasma trials.

Go On , you truly are a pioneer !

This is an interesting theory.  So, if he uses pure Argon gas, he could produce Potassium?  That would be interesting to see if that would be a gas state or solid.

JamieRuss,

I'm glad you tried it with just H2.  I had been wondering about that myself, since it is so easy to get and doesn't cost $1700 a tank.

I love your videos.  I commend you on all the time and effort you put into these projects.  I know there is a ton of work you do, off camera, to bring us these experiments.

Thank you very much.
Jamie

Quote from FaradayEZ on September 30th, 2012, 07:34 AM

Quote from jbignes5 on September 30th, 2012, 06:56 AM

Quote from FaradayEZ on September 30th, 2012, 06:39 AM

Hmm i think that instead of throwing a whole lot of theory on Russ, he knows what he has to do these couple of weeks ahead.

Why not let us go back to the goal we subscibed, we can do more usefull things now:

Like gathering all the bits and pieces of Russ his setup into a document to get other people to replicate this.

Like helping the ones that are also trying to get Pap to work, like KC and Zerwell

Like promoting this proof of concept to other forums and site's and whatever.

Don't forget we are fighting the dragon... so we also need some focused efforts?!

Well let me be very clear about this. Without a very good theory and a plan you have no idea where you are going and that is not very good to do. We must think first then do. If you don't then going blindly into tinkering can and will most likes get you and others hurt.
 I wouldn't go pushing a replication already when Russ hasn't even started to investigate this. Let Russ do what he does best and investigate what he has in front of him.
 The theories and possible suggestions are to help Russ understand the things he is getting into. Most of what I post is stuff others have done and observed which might help him to understand the processes in his device under investigation. He needs this to be able to ask the right questions and find those answers.

 As for promoting the ideas and other stuff to other forums, Why would you do that before he is even started to investigate.

 Case in point: investigating the sparks happening after a blast from the cap bank from the caps themselves. This has to be the best way to see what is going on in the chamber on the return stroke. You got to figure that the spacing between the cap posts has to be 2 inches maybe? Thats a very high value for the voltage then in the return stroke and thats worth investigating.

(it feels like you haven't seen much papp engine's running.. please go to the sites)

The Rohner boys don't even understand the reaction fully..and that's after 30 years looking at it... we don't have the time to really understand it..and why should we? If its harmless (radiation-wise) and it works then go ahead and help the world.

And if Russ validated the concept, then we should also validate that the engine's the Rohners build where genuine!

So we are not jumping the gun when we want to move forward

The only thing we need is the input output picture..... that's the first thing everybody else will want to know.

Well you are kinda jumping the gun here. Yes it validates the concept but he had to swap out the noble gasses for another gas. And to tell you the truth saying you validated the exact build is not what happened.

 Also with hydrogen if even the smallest amount of oxygen get in the chamber it will blow very badly. This is a major concern and should be a major concern to Russ, which it does because he is trying to shield himself at least.The blast shield he uses wouldn't protect much in the way of shrapnel.

 These are major concerns with sharing the info before you know anything about what is going on and the risks associated with this setup.

 Plus there are things going on here that Russ needs to examine better and he even says that. He also asked for us to comment and give our thoughts on this. The world is not gonna end tomorrow. We have time to be safe and examine this fully before blabbing all over the place that it is a success when it hasn't been fully looked into.

 This is the one thing I like about Russ. He isn't quick to release this stuff before it is worked out. Yes this is an open source forum but Russ doesn't release information like that. Give it some time before spreading this too wide so that Russ can do his investigation.

Quote from jbignes5 on September 30th, 2012, 08:30 AM

Quote from FaradayEZ on September 30th, 2012, 07:34 AM

Quote from jbignes5 on September 30th, 2012, 06:56 AM

Quote from FaradayEZ on September 30th, 2012, 06:39 AM

Hmm i think that instead of throwing a whole lot of theory on Russ, he knows what he has to do these couple of weeks ahead.

Why not let us go back to the goal we subscibed, we can do more usefull things now:

Like gathering all the bits and pieces of Russ his setup into a document to get other people to replicate this.

Like helping the ones that are also trying to get Pap to work, like KC and Zerwell

Like promoting this proof of concept to other forums and site's and whatever.

Don't forget we are fighting the dragon... so we also need some focused efforts?!

Well let me be very clear about this. Without a very good theory and a plan you have no idea where you are going and that is not very good to do. We must think first then do. If you don't then going blindly into tinkering can and will most likes get you and others hurt.
 I wouldn't go pushing a replication already when Russ hasn't even started to investigate this. Let Russ do what he does best and investigate what he has in front of him.
 The theories and possible suggestions are to help Russ understand the things he is getting into. Most of what I post is stuff others have done and observed which might help him to understand the processes in his device under investigation. He needs this to be able to ask the right questions and find those answers.

 As for promoting the ideas and other stuff to other forums, Why would you do that before he is even started to investigate.

 Case in point: investigating the sparks happening after a blast from the cap bank from the caps themselves. This has to be the best way to see what is going on in the chamber on the return stroke. You got to figure that the spacing between the cap posts has to be 2 inches maybe? Thats a very high value for the voltage then in the return stroke and thats worth investigating.

(it feels like you haven't seen much papp engine's running.. please go to the sites)

The Rohner boys don't even understand the reaction fully..and that's after 30 years looking at it... we don't have the time to really understand it..and why should we? If its harmless (radiation-wise) and it works then go ahead and help the world.

And if Russ validated the concept, then we should also validate that the engine's the Rohners build where genuine!

So we are not jumping the gun when we want to move forward

The only thing we need is the input output picture..... that's the first thing everybody else will want to know.

Well you are kinda jumping the gun here. Yes it validates the concept but he had to swap out the noble gasses for another gas. And to tell you the truth saying you validated the exact build is not what happened.

 Also with hydrogen if even the smallest amount of oxygen get in the chamber it will blow very badly. This is a major concern and should be a major concern to Russ, which it does because he is trying to shield himself at least.The blast shield he uses wouldn't protect much in the way of shrapnel.

 These are major concerns with sharing the info before you know anything about what is going on and the risks associated with this setup.

 Plus there are things going on here that Russ needs to examine better and he even says that. He also asked for us to comment and give our thoughts on this. The world is not gonna end tomorrow. We have time to be safe and examine this fully before blabbing all over the place that it is a success when it hasn't been fully looked into.

 This is the one thing I like about Russ. He isn't quick to release this stuff before it is worked out. Yes this is an open source forum but Russ doesn't release information like that. Give it some time before spreading this too wide so that Russ can do his investigation.

Safety wise i sure agree  (although it needs 33% oxigen to blow, i think his setup could handle that..let him try some day :) )

But when input is less then output then that's prove of its own concept

In earlier post i already mentioned that he had to work on diverting the feedback pulse..a known problem/good extra with the papp engine's

And safety warnings can be easily put at the top of a document. Look how many dangerous stuff is put freely on Youtube

For us to figure out what is really going on in the cylinder is a utopie...just get to know, how you get the reaction, and get to know how it is safe, and do the calculations on in-, and output.

You can still theorize about the inner workings when you buy the thing in a shop...

Yes James/Jamie,

I think by exposing the hydrogen to the plasma, Russ wil create Helium, and several other elements. Helium is the combination of two hydrogen atoms.

But the combination isn't limited to just Helium although this is most easy and likely to form. The more the gas is plasmatized (if that is a word) the more elements will form. fact is that every floating atom in the plasma cloud is most likely to be stripped of its electrons.

I suspect that the nobel gas mixture is of such composition that it keeps a balance of these gasses by interchanging electrons/form and charge.

So at a certain point Russ will also have a mixture even when starting with hydrogen, that keeps a balance.

my 2 pennies.  :-)

Rene

Quote from jamesgsnelson on September 30th, 2012, 08:05 AM

Quote from rfnreynders on September 29th, 2012, 03:37 PM

Hmmm...

I saw video 11 and the increased power output with hydrogen.
It made me think.

Hydrogen is the smallest atom we now.
With the least amount of electrons per atom.

So in theory, in a plasma enviroment hydrogen atoms are the easiest to strip from their electrons.
This is why you got a good reaction, even without ionizing the gas.

Then what happens is that after the plasma reaction, electrons want to fall back into the orbit of the atom...
But in the time, the hydrogen atoms were stripped of their electrons, they're cores of the hydrogen didn't repel each other, because the repelling happens due to the electrons that are negatively charged. (like magnets repelling the same charge)
Without the electrons ( in a plasma state) all atoms are neutral, but stil move and so can collide with other atoms.

So some of the hydrogen atoms without the electrons where so near to each other, that after the plasma state they formed a new atom.
Helium.
So, within this new state, the helium atoms had to get electrons from the surrounding. This  made the whole device into an electron sucking machine, causing a differential voltage. That is why you had the voltage kick back.
That is why the pressure in the device increases, because the atoms form Helium, and this is a "bigger" gas.
Stil the reaction can continue, because just a few hydrogen atoms reconbined into Helium AND also the helium can be totally stripped of its electrons, giving the oppertunity to form even bigger atoms.
I am not surprised is you find a lot of elements in the gas after the plasma trials.

Go On , you truly are a pioneer !

This is an interesting theory.  So, if he uses pure Argon gas, he could produce Potassium?  That would be interesting to see if that would be a gas state or solid.

Jamie
Russ,

I'm glad you tried it with just H2.  I had been wondering about that myself, since it is so easy to get and doesn't cost $1700 a tank.

I love your videos.  I commend you on all the time and effort you put into these projects.  I know there is a ton of work you do, off camera, to bring us these experiments.

Thank you very much.
Jamie

Quote from rfnreynders on September 30th, 2012, 09:49 AM

So at a certain point Russ will also have a mixture even when starting with hydrogen, that keeps a balance.

my 2 pennies.  :-)

Rene

Hmm makes sence..belly wise..like Walter Lewin used to say (MIT proff..see his lexture's freely on youtube and MIT.org.something)

BAM ! it hit me....

So easy why this works.. the whole pap engine......

All the gas in the cylinder is charged. All atoms repell each other. In normal state.

When applying the plasma, all electrons get stripped of.
So all gas (cores)  can approach each other.
So at the plasma state the pressure drops tremendously.
After the plasma state, electrons fall back onto the atoms and all the atoms repell each other again.
This repelling is like two electromagnets very close two each  other suddenly energised and repelling each other.
This gives pressure in all directions.

To increase the power you simply have to increase the area where the plasma occurs.
Because Hydrogen is the smallest atom, there is the most effect. Always.
In the plasma arc, There always will be more hydrogen atoms stripped then any other gas, because with hydrogen, more fits in the plasma arc.

The only problem with hydrogen is, that it is so small that it will most likely leak away through the cylinder wall... slowly but surely.

This is no problem, you can use an other gas. Like any nobel gas. These are bigger and won't leak away.
But to create the same effect/power as with hydrogen, you'll have to create a bigger plasma arc. (more plasma area)

Here is where the coils come in to play, to center the gasses.
By centering them, you place more atoms within the plasma arc. Simple.
More gas in the plasma arc= more reaction !

My 3 pennies   :-)

Rene
An idea to test is the above theory is solid can be:

Pump in more hydrogen gas, so the pressure goes up. "a little"
This is more density of gas an so more reaction in the cylinder.
Because more hydrogen atoms will be stripped by the plasma arc.

And so more pressure after the plasma arc.

Penny 4 ? ;-)

Rene

Quote from rfnreynders on September 30th, 2012, 10:01 AM

BAM ! it hit me....

So easy why this works.. the whole pap engine......

All the gas in the cylinder is charged. All atoms repell each other. In normal state.

When applying the plasma, all electrons get stripped of.
So all gas (cores)  can approach each other.
So at the plasma state the pressure drops tremendously.
After the plasma state, electrons fall back onto the atoms and all the atoms repell each other again.
This repelling is like two electromagnets very close two each  other suddenly energised and repelling each other.
This gives pressure in all directions.

To increase the power you simply have to increase the area where the plasma occurs.
Because Hydrogen is the smallest atom, there is the most effect. Always.
In the plasma arc, There always will be more hydrogen atoms stripped then any other gas, because with hydrogen, more fits in the plasma arc.

The only problem with hydrogen is, that it is so small that it will most likely leak away through the cylinder wall... slowly but surely.

This is no problem, you can use an other gas. Like any nobel gas. These are bigger and won't leak away.
But to create the same effect/power as with hydrogen, you'll have to create a bigger plasma arc. (more plasma area)

Here is where the coils come in to play, to center the gasses.
By centering them, you place more atoms within the plasma arc. Simple.
More gas in the plasma arc= more reaction !

My 3 pennies   :-)

Rene

Ok, could be, and could the arc be stretched if it was between the piston and the bottom?

We could put hydrogen also at the other side of the piston in an engine..

I can't see how the coils have much effect...one..with the Bob popper it didn't do much..same power with and without the coil..
And secondly the cylinder is made of conducting material..like a cage of faraday..so the field inside is zero..it concentrates on the outside wall...