Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.

Slickhanz

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1475, on January 19th, 2013, 12:40 AM »Last edited on January 19th, 2013, 02:22 AM by ~Russ/Rwg42985
Quote
In a like note, JR says that he multiplies his spark voltage by 4 using this central anode configuration. This may be also be multipling  the 40,000 spark voltage that Papp used.  I don’t understand this. Is JR setting up a serial connection through the electrodes? Does the Papp circuit diagram show this? This is very hard for me to understand but I want to very much.
For what i can gather from the Papp patent and the way Bob's connections appear in the single cylinder tests,  is that his high voltage initiated high current arc, is across the anode and cathode, one positive one ground.  The buckets are connected in "parallel" and then fed into the next circuit capacitor that feeds the next set of High Current discharge anode.  Bob's next cylinder capacitor is the one he discharges with the small motor.  The coils are wired to a relay that provide their working power in the BR videos.  The relays are all "protected" by diodes for back emf.  Some other designs show a brush like mechanical timing to provide coil voltage it appears.

The JR stuff with the 4 coils doesn't use the buckets, near as i can tell.  Just 4 HV coils each delivering 8k-10kv to each electrode and then to a central discharge point.  I think the 4 coils are more in parallel than they are in series. 12v goes into each coil and then all 4 ground 8k-10kv through the same ground point to create the arc/plasmoid.

 IMHO, Slightly cleaner design with the HV.  If you substitute the welding rods for the spark plugs i think this would be a beefier setup for the electrodes.  The higher voltage will probably initiate the plasma burst as much as the voltage and current supplied by a HV arc followed by a cap discharge.  40,000 V at 1A is the same as 10,000V at 4A.  Should create the same type of arc or plasmoid.  The interaction of the plasmoid to the ionized Noble gas mixture is where the main energy is coming from.  So how ever you ionize the gases, with radioactive buckets or RF, as long as you create a plasmoid in the ionized atmosphere, you should get the expanding plasma effect that seems very integral to this machine working.  Personally, I think the best setup would be to have 4 welding rods and have them wired like BR's machine or with mechanical timing.  So 2 electrodes for spark gap and 2 electrodes for over-EMF reception to send on down the line.  The alternator provides voltage for the coils and the buckets supply the power to the next cylinder capacitor.  

Tim


FaradayEZ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1476, on January 19th, 2013, 01:12 AM »Last edited on January 19th, 2013, 01:14 AM by FaradayEZ
Back to the back EMF

If we blast or resonate, both is within the science boundries. What amount of voltage and amperage did Papp use to ignite?

If it was like so much as Russ uses, he would have no overunity setup. But if we have difficulty to lower the input and get some results with it, we still haven't used the escape hatch good enough.

If we finally also get our hands on the back EMF and current flow from it. We can start to do the measurements again about overunity.

Then the question; "how much do you put in to get it ignited?" isn't the primary anymore. Because then the question becomes; "how much net input is used?"

Then it becomes a measuring thing as to where the optimum resites. And as long as the netinput is less then the poweroutput we would have our working contraption.

So where is our back EMF hidden?









~Russ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1477, on January 19th, 2013, 01:37 AM »
Quote from Axil on January 18th, 2013, 09:08 PM
Quote
And also as we wanted to stay away from radiation, so also from x-rays, we first should try to get the effect x-ray's have with only the frequencted voltage.
If the high frequency can loosen x-ray's it also can dismember large atomclusters.
We are constrained by the laws of nature from all the things we want to accomplish. These laws are the policemen of our desires.

Electrons cannot get through the electron cloud that protects the atom no matter how hard we want them to. The repulsion caused by the coulomb barrier keeps electrons away from the Atomic clusters we want to explode.

But when fast electrons stop or turn quickly, they produce ultraviolet and x-ray EMF. This type of radiation is not blocked by the repulsion produced by the coulomb barrier. These EMF photons usually pass through the atomic clusters because these photons are without electric charge, but sometimes they interact with the electron cloud that surrounds and shields the atom. These photons sometimes knock out one or more electrons from the electron cloud that protect the atom.

With a big enough flux of high energy EMF, the chances are good that enough electrons are blasted out of the atomic cluster to cause it to explode. But we need a massive flux of high energy EMF to do what we want so the odds turn to favor us.

Even though its hard we must follow these rules of sub-atomic particle interactions if we want those atoms to do what we want.  Ignoring physical law is the stuff of dreams and in the end, a waste of time

But there is another way to counter the dread of radiation; one way to relieve the fear spawned by the term “x-ray” is to use a synonym for it: “deep ultraviolet radiation”; now doesn’t that feel a lot better?

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on January 18th, 2013, 02:01 AM
hey guys, i think i just figured out something.

ok, so have a look at the Papp patents US4428193

in the patents you have this photo:



and here is the cylinder head:



ok, so for the longest time now i have been trying to figure out how a 40,000V spark was going to jump that gap...

its to big it would just jump to the cylinder head...

well check the first FIG 6 photo...

check #85

this is the center electrode... so that's how the spark jumps that  big gap...

but that's not all...

the cylinder is moving so this arc will fallow the lest resistance. and that is where the spark and the plasma is pulled down the cylinder and it may as well help form the "plasmoid"

there not i feel better... lol

thoughts?

~Russ

also from the patent:
Quote
The piston has a generally semitoroidal depression in its upper surface (see FIGS. 4, 5 and 11) and carries a conductive discharge point 85 of copper, brass or bronze generally along the axis of the chamber. When the piston is generally extended, the discharge point is a substantial distance from the electrodes. But when the piston is in its upper position (see FIG. 11), the discharge point is disposed generally intermediate all four electrodes and in close proximity thereto, there being gaps between said electrodes and the discharge point. When the piston is in this upper position, the electrodes extend somewhat into the semitoroidal depression in the piston's upper surface and the chamber is generally toroidal in shape.
so possibility create the HV arc and then after the piston is moving past the center eletrod the caps discharge? so the brass "button" dose not vaporize...
This idea that 85 is a central anode makes perfect sense, if Papp wanted to make a plasmoid.


But to make this work, 85 must be connected to positive ground. All four electrodes are negative polarity.
not necessarily... im looking over it better now
Quote
The spark discharge travels separately from all four negative electrodes to the central positive anode (85).
(not 100% sure on this one just yet)
only the 2 electrodes get the 40KV and there not referd to as " anode or cathode"

so we have an anode and cathode, (buckets) and we have 2 electrodes not buckets.

i do not think the buckets get any HV supplied. ( i could be wrong...) but if they do and the arc hits the AL buckets they will fail (and i believe they did? so maybe this is why)
Quote
I tried to verify this guess, and could not figure out the Papp circuits; how the grounding works.


Can anyone expert in this specialty here verify this guess by looking at the Papp circuit?
bob did mention once to me that i should ground the rod of the cylinder... ?!?!  but then again he is using 2 ignition coils... so the rod could be grounded and the coils both be + voltage... not sure but it makes sense.. but this dose not apply to papp's set up as far as the schematic goes... as far as i can tell anyway. (more to study)
Quote
By the way, John Rohner uses a central anode with four cathodes if memory serves.


In a like note, JR says that he multiplies his spark voltage by 4 using this central anode configuration. This may be also be multipling  the 40,000 spark voltage that Papp used.  I don’t understand this. Is JR setting up a serial connection through the electrodes? Does the Papp circuit diagram show this? This is very hard for me to understand but I want to very much.
i still don't get how by creating 4 x 40,000V sparks will get you anywhere past the 40,000 volts that are supplied... sure you will get 4 x the current... the only way to raise the potential is do like i was with the 2 ignition coils. one is + and the other is - this would leave the rest of the unit "ground" and that will give you a 80,000V potential... ( - 40,000v and + 40,000v so between the 2 points is 80,000v...)  if JR was doing such thing the arc would jump to the other plugs... and not to ground on the cylinder. and his center electrode is not on the piston but rather on the head...



oh here answers your thoughts on the multiple pulses per cylinder fire. BUT keep in mined that this ignition coil will only fire a spark once and that's when the power is removed... so when he states Multiple sparks he may mean at the same time and not in a sequence as other events happening???

see next post:

~Russ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1478, on January 19th, 2013, 02:16 AM »Last edited on January 19th, 2013, 03:50 AM by ~Russ/Rwg42985
you will need theses to understand the next part:

[attachment=3061]
[attachment=3060]



from patent:
Quote
The electrical circuitry for engine 11 includes (see FIG. 13A) a 24 V battery B1, an ignition switch SW1, a starter swich SW2, starter motor 37, a main circuit switch SW4, a step-down transformer 93 (e.g., a 24 V to 3.5 V transformer), a switch SW6 for supplying power to ignition coil 25 (shown in FIGS. 13A and 13B as two separate ignition coils 25A and 25B), and various decoupling diodes.
the 3.5V is used for the electronic switch through the timing cams.... to turn them on and off.
Quote
The circuitry of FIG. 13A also includes a high frequency voltage source or oscillator 95 for supplying rapidly varying voltage through two electronic current regulators 97A, 97B (see FIG. 13B for regulator 97B) to the anode and cathode electrodes of each cylinder, and a high voltage distributor 99 for distributing 40,000 volt pulses to the cylinders. Distributor 99 has two wipers 99A and 99B and supplies three pulses to each cylinder per cycle
and also :
Quote
Wipers 99A and 99B are 180.degree. out of phase with each other and each operates to supply pulses to its respective cylinder from TDC to 120.degree. thereafter. More pulses are desirable and therefore a better distributor arrangement (shown in FIG. 14) may be used. The arrangement shown in FIG. 14 includes two ignition coils 101, 103, a simple distributor 105 and a pair of magnetic ignition circuits 107, 109, described below. Of course many other ignition systems could also be developed. For example, a single circuit might be used in place of circuits 107, 109, additional induction coils might be added to the ignition coils to assist in starting or a resistor could be added to the ignition coils to ensure a constant 40,000 volt output regardless of engine rpm. Moreover, a solid-state distributor could be used instead of the mechanical distributor labelled 99.
so maybe there timed... i don't now just yet...

and more good read:
Quote
Operation of the engine is as follows: At room temperature, each cylinder is filled with a one atmosphere charge of the fuel mixture of approximately 6 cubic inches (100 cm.sup.3)/cylinder (in the case of the smallest engine) by means of filler tube 59. The filler tubes are then plugged and the cylinders are installed in the engine as shown in FIG. 4, one piston being in the fully extended position and the other being in the fully retracted position. To start the engine, the ignition and starter switches are closed, as is switch SW6. This causes the starter motor to crank the engine, which in turn causes the wiper arms of the distributors to rotate. The starting process begins, for example, when the pistons are in the positions shown in FIG. 4. Ignition coil 25 and distributor 99 (see FIG. 13A) generate a 40,000 volt pulse which is supplied to electrode 65 of chamber 41A. Therefore, a momentary high potential exists between electrodes 63 and 65 and the plates on each. The discharge point on piston 39A is adjacent these electrodes at this time and sparks occur between one or more of the electrodes and the discharge point to partially excite, e.g. ionize, the gaseous fuel mixture.

The gaseous fuel mixture in cylinder 41A is further excited by magnetic fields set up in the chamber by coil 49A. This coil is connected to the output side of electronic switching unit 121 and, through switching unit 113, to the battery and the generator. At this time, i.e., between approximately 5.degree. before TDC and TDC, distributor 135 is supplying a gating signal to unit 121. Any current present on the input side of unit 121, therefore, passes through unit 121 to energize coil 49A. Moreover, high frequency current from oscillator 95 is supplied via regulator 97A to coil 49A. This current passes through regulator and relay 97A because the gating signal supplied from distributor 135 to unit 121 is also supplied to relay 97A. The current from switching unit 121 and from oscillator 95 also is supplied to the anode and the cathode. It is calculated that this causes radioactive rays (x-rays) to flow between the anode and the cathode, thereby further exciting the gaseous mixture.
so basically the anode and cathode and the first coil get both DC voltage and high frequency RF... this may be why there is no "antenna" the buckets are the antenna...

"gating signal"

this is where the 2 signals are " superimposed" in to one...

and more:
Quote
As the starter motor continues cranking, piston 39A begins moving downward, piston 39B begins moving upward, and the wiper arms of the distributors rotate. (Needless to say, a solid-state distributor would not rotate. The distributor could utilize photo cells, either light or reflected light, rather than contact points.) After 45.degree. of rotation, distributor 135 supplies a gating pulse to electronic switching unit 119, thereby completing a circuit through unit 119. The input to unit 119 is connected to the same lines that supply current to coil 49A. The completion of the circuit through unit 119, therefore, causes coil 51A to be energized in the same manner as coil 49A. After an additional 45.degree. of rotation, distributor 135 gates on electronic switching unit 117 which completes a circuit to the same lines. The output terminal of unit 117 is connected to coil 53A, and so this coil is energized when unit 117 is gated on. All three coils of the "A" cylinder remain energized and, therefore, generating magnetic fields in chamber 41A until piston 39A reaches BDC.
so every 45 degrees this happens and the other coils come in play. both with DC voltage and the HF RF...

ok... well here is the 3 spark discharge answer:
Quote
As piston 39A moves from TDC to BDC, two additional 40,000 volt pulses (for a total of three) are supplied from distributor 99 to the "A" cylinder. These pulses are spaced approximately 60.degree. apart. If more pulses are desired, the apparatus shown in FIG. 14 may be used. In that case, the solenoids indicated generally at 107A, 107B and 109A, 109B are energized to create a number of rapid, high-voltage pulses which are supplied as indicated in FIG. 14 to the cylinders, distributor 105 operating to supply pulses to only one of the pair of cylinders at a time.
so the sparks happen when the piston is moving from TDC to BDC.. ( every 60 Deg) probably at the same time the next coil is fired...
Quote
As piston 39A reaches BDC, distributor 135 sends a pulse to the OFF terminals of electronic switching units 121, 117 and 119, respectively, causing all three coils 49A, 51A and 53A to be deenergized. At about the same time, i.e., between approximately 5.degree. prior to TDC and TDC for piston 39B, distributor 137 supplies a gating pulse to the ON terminals of electronic switching units 113 and 115. The power inputs to units 113 and 115 come from the generator through regulator 111 and from the battery, and the outputs are directly connected to coils 49A and 53A. Therefore, when units 113 and 115 are gated on, coils 49A and 53A are reenergized. But in this part of the cycle, the coils are energized with the opposite polarity, causing a reversal in the magnetic field in chamber 41A. Note that coil 51A is not energized at all during this portion of the cycle. Capacitors C1A and C2A are also charged during the BDC to TDC portion of the cycle. (During the TDC to BDC portion of the cycle, these capacitors are charged and/or discharged by the same currents as are supplied to the anode and cathode since they are directly connected thereto.)
it gets complicated but ilm fallowing.
these caps are not "discharging" like we think... this is just to keep a potential on the "buckets" and not discharging like my caps are currently...
Quote
As piston 39A moves upward, electrodes 63 and 65 serve as pick-up points in order to conduct some of the current out of chamber 41A, this current being generated by the excited gases in the chamber. Said current is transferred via line L7 to electronic switching unit 151. The same gating pulse which gated on units 113 and 115 was also supplied from distributor 137 via line L12 to gate on switching unit 151, so the current from the electrodes of chamber 41A passes through unit 151 to the anode, cathode and capacitors of chamber 41B, as well as through switching units 147 and 149 to coils 49B, 51B and 53B. Thus it can be seen that electricity generated in one cylinder during a portion of the cycle is transferred to the other cylinder to assist in the excitation of the gaseous mixture in the latter. Note that this electricity is regulated to maintain a constant in-engine current. It should be noted that twenty four volts from the generator is always present on electrodes 63 and 65 during operation to provide for pre-excitement of the gases.
this is the " crossover" where the energy being created from the collapsing plasma and collapsing BEMF from the coils is used to fire the other cylinder...  

in red #1 this is where the argon layer helps... note this is the electrodes and not the buckets...

also in red#2 ... i guess the HV eletrods are also connected to the 24v dc all the time... ? hummm ok...
Quote
From the above it can be seen that distributors 135 and 137 in conjunction with electronic switching units 113, 115, 117, 119, 121, 143, 145, 147, 149 and 151 constitute means for individually energizing coils 49A, 49B, 51A, 51B, 53A and 53B. More particularly they constitute means operable to energize all the coils of a given cylinder from the other cylinder when the first cylinder's piston is moving from TDC to BDC and operable to energize only two (i.e., less than all) of the coils from the alternator when that piston is moving from BDC to TDC. Additionally, these components constitute means for energizing the coils with a given polarity when the piston of that cylinder is moving from TDC to BDC and for energizing the first and third coils with the opposite polarity when that piston is moving from BDC to TDC.

As can also be seen, switching units 121 and 151 together with distributors 135 and 137 constitute means for closing a circuit for flow of current from chamber 41A to chamber 41B during the BDC to TDC portion of the cycle of chamber 41A and for closing a circuit for flow of current from chamber 41B to chamber 41A during the TDC to BDC portion of the cycle of chamber 41A. Oscillator 95 constitutes means for supplying a time varying electrical voltage to the electrodes of each cylinder, and oscillator 95, distributors 135 and 137, and regulators 97A and 97B together constitute means for supplying the time varying voltage during a predetermined portion of the cycle of each piston. Moreover, distributor 99 together with ignition coils 25A and 25B constitute means for supplying high voltage pulses to the cylinders at predetermined times during the cycle of each piston.
more madness in switching coils in a timing sequences.

and there is more ...

[attachment=3062]

but that's some of how the circuit works...

i do not see where the cylinders are grounded or not grounded... but its possible that the cylinders/ motor is not grounded... in that case to answer your question Axil.

the arc would jump right across the center electrode... and would not stop halfway through.

also where it states "two additional 40,000 volt pulses (for a total of three)" that the 2 electrodes are too far apart for the HV to jump the gap... so there may not be a spark but rather just a + pontential in the cylinder... ( still i would think the spark would jump to the head... that may be what the plates are for... if there is no sharp "breakout points" then it may not jump... bu rather just have a charge...)

well im out of time...

i can fallow through the sequences... its not to hard... if i get time i will make a chart of whats doing what in the sequence...

like this:
[attachment=3063]


~Russ


~Russ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1479, on January 19th, 2013, 02:27 AM »
Quote from Slickhanz on January 19th, 2013, 12:40 AM
The interaction of the plasmoid to the ionized Noble gas mixture is where the main energy is coming from. So how ever you ionize the gases, with radioactive buckets or RF, as long as you create a plasmoid in the ionized atmosphere, you should get the expanding plasma effect that seems very integral to this machine working.
thats corect... and we dont have buckets... so caps may be just as good... but we will need to supply more power and that's not good for "OU" device...

the radioactive energy is " free energy" its there for the taking... so that's where we start heaving down the efficient path... but getting it to work other ways would be best..

~Russ

simonderricutt

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1480, on January 19th, 2013, 03:16 AM »
Russ - On the 3 sparks analysis, I think you've got it wrong. It states the piston is moving from TDC to BDC, so it's on the firing stroke, not the return. So there are 3 sparks spaced around 60° apart  finishing at 120° on the power stroke, or maybe more sparks if they want more firings. The return stroke does not have sparks.

In Sabori's video, there's references to "run 2000" and some jokes about the difficulty in getting it working, so it's possible that they never did actually have an engine running over unity. There may be some clues in the documentation of stuff Papp told him but didn't tell other people, but I think the patent is basically a design that didn't work. He certainly never seems to have got to anything reliable enough to demonstrate, and he did spend a lot of time and money on it.

~Russ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1481, on January 19th, 2013, 03:54 AM »Last edited on January 19th, 2013, 04:01 AM by ~Russ/Rwg42985
Quote from simonderricutt on January 19th, 2013, 03:16 AM
Russ - On the 3 sparks analysis, I think you've got it wrong. It states the piston is moving from TDC to BDC, so it's on the firing stroke, not the return. So there are 3 sparks spaced around 60° apart  finishing at 120° on the power stroke, or maybe more sparks if they want more firings. The return stroke does not have sparks.

In Sabori's video, there's references to "run 2000" and some jokes about the difficulty in getting it working, so it's possible that they never did actually have an engine running over unity. There may be some clues in the documentation of stuff Papp told him but didn't tell other people, but I think the patent is basically a design that didn't work. He certainly never seems to have got to anything reliable enough to demonstrate, and he did spend a lot of time and money on it.
ah yes. i did read it wrong. i fixed it in my last post. i not only tend to wright backwards i also read backwards some times... lol ( no joke)

thanks for catching that!

"Sabori's video" from what i know Sabori never had a working motor.. ( all that stuff he bought after papp died... i think)  so everything he states is derived from papp or videos from Papp's days...

the Dino part of the video is Sabori doing a voice over on the orgnail footage... ( that's what bob has said) i don't know what else of that video is like that... (voice over)

~Russ

k c dias

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1482, on January 19th, 2013, 12:30 PM »Last edited on January 19th, 2013, 12:36 PM by k c dias
Axil,

Check this out:

Abstract
Quote
A cold atomic cluster can be very rapidly heated and compressed by a hypersonic impact at a hard surface. The impact can be simulated by computing a classical trajectory for the motion of the atoms. By suddenly confining the hot and dense cluster within a rigid container, it is possible to monitor the time evolution of the force acting on the faces of the container. It is found that the pressure computed this way very rapidly decays to a time-independent value. After a somewhat longer time, this value reproduces the value for the pressure computed as the sum of the kinetic and internal pressures. This agreement is expected for a system in equilibrium. These observations support the conclusion that there is a fast relaxation to thermal equilibrium in these essentially hard-sphere systems. The deviation from equilibrium is primarily due to the propagation of shock waves within the cluster. The equilibrium pressure can reach up to the megabar range.
The link:

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jp065765t

Full Article:

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~powles/PDFs/Gross_2006.pdf

kcd

element 119

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1483, on January 19th, 2013, 06:01 PM »
I put together this quick reference number guide for Patent # 4428193
Hopefully I didn’t make any mistakes or miss anything ! So let me know if I did.

B1 = Battery
SW1 = ignition switch
SW2 = Starter switch
SW4 = main circuit switch
SW6 = coil supply power
11 = Two Cyl. Engine
13 = Block preferably of a nonmagnetic material such as aluminum
15 = Heads preferably of a nonmagnetic material such as aluminum
17A & 17B = a pair of cylinder heads magnetizable material such as 0.1-0.3% carbon steel
19 = Flywheel
21 = Crankshaft
23 = Generator ( 24 volts )
25 = High Voltage ignition Coil
27 = Distributor
29 = Gear arrangement
31 = Electrical Cable
33 = switching unit
35 = second electrical cable
37 = Starter Motor
39A & 39B = pistons are made of a magnetizable material
41A & 41B = cylinders
43 = chamber walls
45 = air-tight bellows
47 = cylinder bodies made of nonmagnetic material such as stainless steel
49A & 49B = electric coils. Each of these coils has an inductance of approximately 100 mH = 14-19 gauge wire
51A & 51B = electric coils . Each of these coils has an inductance of approximately 100 mH = 14-19 gauge wire
53A & 53B = electric coils . Each of these coils has an inductance of approximately 100 mH = 14-19 gauge wire
57 = Teflon seals
59 = Filler tube with ball valve
61 = concave depression
63 = electrode with tungsten points ( 75 )
65 = electrode with tungsten points ( 75 )
67 = anode = bucket
69 = cathode = bucket
71 = conductive rod preferably of copper or brass
73 = rectangular plate
75 = tungsten point
77 = conductive base
79 = conductive rod
81 = container
85 = conductive discharge point of copper ,brass or bronze  
87 = plurality of ports
89 = one way valve
90= chamber
93 = step-down transformer = 24v to 3.5 volts
95 = high frequency voltage source or oscillator
97A & 97B = electronic current regulators
99 = distributor and 99a & 99b are wipers
111 = voltage regulator and relay
113 = electronic switching unit
115 = electronic switching unit
117 = electronic switching unit
119 = electronic switching unit
121 = electronic switching unit
123 = SCR
125 = SCR
127 = SCR
129 = SCR
131 = PNP transistor
135 = low voltage distributor
137 = low voltage distributor
143 = electronic switching units
145 = electronic switching units
147 = electronic switching units
149 = electronic switching units
151 = electronic switching units


element 119

~Russ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1484, on January 20th, 2013, 01:10 AM »Last edited on January 20th, 2013, 01:14 AM by ~Russ/Rwg42985
Quote from element 119 on January 19th, 2013, 06:01 PM
I put together this quick reference number guide for Patent # 4428193
Hopefully I didn’t make any mistakes or miss anything ! So let me know if I did.

element 119
thats what im talking about!

nice work!

now going over the schematic/diagrams will be much more eazy! :)

thanks!! ~Russ

~Russ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1485, on January 20th, 2013, 01:13 AM »
Quote from k c dias on January 19th, 2013, 12:30 PM
Axil,

Check this out:

Abstract
Quote
A cold atomic cluster can be very rapidly heated and compressed by a hypersonic impact at a hard surface. The impact can be simulated by computing a classical trajectory for the motion of the atoms. By suddenly confining the hot and dense cluster within a rigid container, it is possible to monitor the time evolution of the force acting on the faces of the container. It is found that the pressure computed this way very rapidly decays to a time-independent value. After a somewhat longer time, this value reproduces the value for the pressure computed as the sum of the kinetic and internal pressures. This agreement is expected for a system in equilibrium. These observations support the conclusion that there is a fast relaxation to thermal equilibrium in these essentially hard-sphere systems. The deviation from equilibrium is primarily due to the propagation of shock waves within the cluster. The equilibrium pressure can reach up to the megabar range.
The link:

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jp065765t

Full Article:

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~powles/PDFs/Gross_2006.pdf

kcd
nice find kcd

i have attached a copy for backup:


~Russ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1486, on January 20th, 2013, 02:37 AM »Last edited on January 20th, 2013, 02:53 AM by ~Russ/Rwg42985
so in this paper they are saying that clusters hapen for a A femtosecond (is the SI unit of time equal to 10−15 of a second. That is one quadrillionth, or one millionth of one billionth, of a second.)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femtosecond

and the pressure is 2.75ish megabars. that's 39885377.951925 PSI...

that's crazy... i don know how you measure that... lol  

the pressure peeks for about 1e-13 of a second... then falls to about 3625943.450175 PSI after about 8e-13 of a second... thats the end of the chart...

that's crazy. its so fast that we would never even see it... but once it happens it resonates for a while...

i was referring to the figure 4 in the paper on the last post... http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=659&pid=12117#pid12117

"For the hot clusters of
interest to us here, this relaxation takes a picosecond or longer."


"V. Concluding Remarks
A cluster of rare gas atoms can be driven very far from
equilibrium in a very short time by a hypersonic impact at a
hard surface. After a few atom-atom collisions, the distribution
of kinetic and potential energies settles to their equilibrium value
computed for the temperature that corresponds to the mean value
of the random kinetic energy. By confining such a hot and
compressed cluster to a rigid container, it is possible to compute
the pressure that the cluster applies. Two ways of defining the
pressure were discussed. One, in the manner first introduced
by the Bernoullis, is by computing the force on the walls of the
container by the atoms reversing their velocities upon impact.
This gives the same result as computing the pressureâvolume
product as the virial of the force due to the walls. The other
expression is from the virial theorem where there are two terms
that contribute, the kinetic and the internal pressures. The latter
contribution is the virial of the internal forces. The two ways
to compute the pressure converge after the brief interval during
which time the turbulence in the cluster to settle down. Pressures
up to the megabar range are computed for velocities of impact
that are below the threshold for ionization of the cluster atoms
."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersonic_speed

that's 3,840-7,680 miles per hr range.

from: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_fast_does_lightning_travel
"the typical lightning bolt moves at 224,000 mph"

so we have the conditions to "shock" the gas clusters... we can achieve what this paper is stating?

am i reading all this correct? lol

maybe i just need sleep... who knows.

~Russ
 

Jed

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1487, on January 20th, 2013, 04:58 AM »
Great Discussion!

Just attempting to piece together the essential elements of the Papp
engine. Toroid chamber shape. HV ionization. Massive injections of electrons
from Caps, sequentially. Containment of Toroid plasmoid with DC coil
surrounding chamber. Pressure expands chamber. Plasmoid instability triggers
collapse. Energy drained away via another coil without release of heat.

For an airplane wing, the pressures resulting in flight depends on the direction
or angle at which it contacts the surface. I assume that in a Papp Toroid
chamber the electrons do not just sit around quietly or march toward the
walls to bounce off of them perpendicularly. Perhaps a grand scale
motion such as illustraited here:
http://peswiki.com/images/7/7d/NewHIDmodel-scriptTELESIO-fig-3D1.JPG
for hydrogen can represent the plasmoid as it is ingeniously
contsined, shaped and manipulated.

It is quite simple. Consider a Toroid Chamber. Illustrate Papp reaction with
this analogy. Fill it with liquid. Simulate HV spark conductivity by stir rotating
the liquid donut around central axis.  Hold liquid donut shape in place with
magnetic field supplied by DC through coil about perimeter. Position three inlet
ports at 0, 60 and 120 degree positions and outlet port at center with pressure
relief valve. Sequentially inject blue dye into toroid through input ports.
Confining the dense cluster within the toroid evokes a force acting on the faces
of the container.

Conjecture: Injection of multiple magnitudes quantity of electrons into cavity
shaped and locked with electromagnetic fields results in a plasmoid. Inherent
instability results in collapse which can be conveniently drained away and
salvaged through another coil without heat.

Jed

FaradayEZ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1488, on January 20th, 2013, 12:23 PM »

Don't want to dempen the parade's here, but i'm still waiting for the / some real tests to begin. We have three people with poppers and we have a lot of making sense test already gathered.

I thought we really wanted to know how the papp engine functions, or do we first want to make a fluxcapacitor to get something going?

And can't we do both?


Jed

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1490, on January 20th, 2013, 02:29 PM »
Dog-One Wrote:  Do we know approximately how many joules per pulse this is to see the effect?

Electron mass: 9.109 382 15(45) x 10^-31 kg.
Quantity of Electrons in One gram of Hydrogen:  6.022 x 10^+23
C=299,792,458 Meters per second

Enjoy calculating Energy with E=MC^+2

Note: Edison invented an incandescent light. Russ invented a Hydrogen device
that produces energy.

Jed

Axil

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1491, on January 20th, 2013, 02:47 PM »Last edited on January 20th, 2013, 03:37 PM by Axil
Quote from Dog-One on January 20th, 2013, 01:03 PM
Quote from Jed on January 20th, 2013, 04:58 AM
Massive injections of electrons from Caps
Do we know approximately how many joules per pulse this is to see the effect?
From an engineering perspective, the best way to get noble gases to explode in an improved Papp engine design is to hit them with dense sheets of high energy electrons to produce shockwaves and compression.

Furthermore, if high energy x-rays can be added to the blend, they are useful in producing even more electrons and ions in a noble gas mix. This additional plasma source further supplements the cascading production of more electrons and ions, more secondary high energy EMF, more shockwaves, all within an over unity energy amplification framework.

The best way to generate this plasma environment is to produce a focused plasmoid whose power output scales only with instantaneous pulsed power and not voltage.


The electrode and constraining coil assembly should be small so that they can be integrated using a common pulse power bus source with all these components carried by the piston.

I think our optimum solution which can meets all these engineering goals and also meets all our other needs lie in plasma focus technology.

In more detail, the plasma focus is a well-developed pulsed inertial confinement fusion based technology. It can provide us with a copious source of both multiple EMF radiation frequencies and highly energetic particles: hard and soft x-rays, electromagnetic radiation, fusion neutrons, relativistic electron beams, fast ion beams and highly energetic plasma streams with shock fronts exceeding Mach 1000.

All these complex interactive radiation and particle streams are generated from a small and compact device which can be fitted inside the head of a piston

It is a triumph of modern science and technology that we can now present a complete picture of the plasma focus in the lifetime of its dynamic evolution.

That lifetime typically occupies not more than 10 microseconds; from the time a spark starts its instantaneous power pulse rise to some 10,000,000,000 joules/second. This amazing amount of power production occurs within just a 50 nanoseconds timeframe, driving a shock wave to Mach 1000 straight down the fairway; to the radial compression phase when increasing electromagnetic forces doubles the speed of the hot plasma shock waves; before the final focusing action; squeezing the plasma into a superheated highly dense ‘pinch’ with temperatures exceeding that of the center of the sun.

From this minute cauldron of ‘solar’ ‘stellar’ matter comes forth the rich explosion of multiple EMF radiation and energetic particles and beams.

In a typical device this tremendous explosion of electrons ions and high energy EMF lasts less than 0.1 microsecond.  

Input power can be greatly amplified thanks to the requirement that the reaction lives and grows only within an almost  instantaneously short sub nanosecond duration of this ion explosion.

We must press this short timeframe to our maximum advantage. We do that by using an Instantaneous pulse power discharge.

Instantaneous pulse power takes advantage of power application by trading off time duration against power output in the same way that a lever trades off lift distance against lifting force.

If the ion explosion requires only 50 nanoseconds to occur, then 500 joules of power can be packed into this short timeframe.

This is the engineering challenge; to pack significant amounts of joules into a short nanosecond pulse.

From our studies we find that any energy that is expended outside of this short timeframe is wasted. The key to success is packing more energy into a shorter timeframe because the ion explosion happens so fast; less than a nanosecond

Steady accumulation of energy in a capacitor bank followed by its rapid release can result in the delivery of a larger amount of instantaneous power over a much shorter period of time (although the total energy is the same).

The compression power of a coil that constrains the plasma to the focus point using the same pulsed power as the spark discharge will also greatly accelerate the plasma to the ends of the piston tightly confined to the axial center line.

This confining magnetic field will also protect the anode from the plama.

This coil will provide a huge confinment force while aiding in applying rotation to the plasmoid formation process helping in the initiation of magnetic kinks in the plasmoid that accelerate electrons.

Pulse power is the key. The energy is slowly accumulated and stored within our capacitors and then released in a very short interval.  This process is called energy compression.

A huge amount of peak power can be delivered to a load in a form of electrical leverage.

For example, if 500 joules of energy is stored within a capacitor and then evenly released to a load over a 50 nanosecond timeframe, the peak power delivered to the load would only be 500 watts total.


However, if all of the stored energy were released within just 50 ns, the peak power would be 10,000 megawatts.

The voltage of the input current is not important; it is the speed in which the power is received; that is what really counts.

The plasmoid will convert that power to magnetic fields that accelerate electrons and ions to high energies.

It is these high energy electrons that produce the high energy EMF and ion shockwaves which is central to the production of the ion explosion during the Papp reaction.

For example when operated in neon, the x-ray emission power peaks at 10exp9 Watts over a period of nanoseconds. When operated in deuterium the neutron burst produces rates of neutron typically 10exp15 neutrons per second over burst durations of tens of nanosecond.

The emission comes from a point source making these devices among the most powerful laboratory pulsed radiation sources in the world. These sources are plasma-based.

Focusing power into a small volume is another way to amplify that power. Pushing power into a point like power radiation source concentrates power in a small, high density volume further adding to electrical leverage.  

The way that this focusing is typically done is by using a cylindrical shaped transparent cathode located inside a solid anode shell. A transparent cathode uses rods or a screen structure to produce electrons which lets most of the electrons and ions flow freely through it.

In order to increase the start of plasmoid formation both the start conditions and the rate of build-up are important.

The start conditions can be improved by various priming techniques.

Fast rate of build-up can be achieved from large azimuthal electric field.

The geometry of the transparent cathode is such that it self-consistently provides

- Cathode Priming
- Magnetic Priming
- Electric priming

In addition, the large value of the E field in the electron sheath provides fast rate of build-up of plasmoid formation.

Simulations of the transparent cathode have shown significant improvement in the following output characteristics:

Large radiated power, high electron efficiency, and EMF production.

These factors all contribute to the explosive movement of the piston through the application of plasma explosive pressure.

The following document describes the electrode configuration of a fusion device that uses a pulse powered hollow anode that encloses a transparent cathode (made of rods) inside a cylindrical solid walled anode.
 
[attachment=3079]


Axil

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1492, on January 20th, 2013, 04:33 PM »
Russ says that he does not produce x-rays because this spark discharge voltage is too low. But Russ is producing a plasmoid.

IMHO, Russ is producing x-rays. It is the amount of instantaneous power that Russ can produce by his spark discharge that determines the amount of x-rays that Russ can produce; voltage is immaterial to this consideration.

The same can be said for the Papp engine. 40,000 volts is a small potential level to produce x-rays. But Papp uses capacitors. The X-ray production of the Papp process is determined by the instantaneous power output that can be produced by those capacitors.
 

 

Matt Watts

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1493, on January 20th, 2013, 05:21 PM »Last edited on January 20th, 2013, 05:24 PM by Matt Watts
You have stated a lot of information there Axil, but let's just take one small piece of it and see if we can engineer a solution.
Quote from Axil on January 20th, 2013, 02:47 PM
If the ion explosion requires only 50 nanoseconds to occur, then 500 joules of power can be packed into this short timeframe.

For example, if 500 joules of energy is stored within a capacitor and then evenly released to a load over a 50 nanosecond timeframe, the peak power delivered to the load would only be 500 watts total.
Okay, 500 joules per pulse.  Where does number come from and how many of these pulses do we need per second?  If you can get me that number, I can build a capacitor charger (current source) that will do it.  Then it's just a matter of initiating a high voltage arc to start the discharge; again, easy stuff if you have the engineering specifications we need to build it.

Axil

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1494, on January 20th, 2013, 07:16 PM »Last edited on January 20th, 2013, 07:22 PM by Axil
Quote from Dog-One on January 20th, 2013, 05:21 PM
You have stated a lot of information there Axil, but let's just take one small piece of it and see if we can engineer a solution.
Quote from Axil on January 20th, 2013, 02:47 PM
If the ion explosion requires only 50 nanoseconds to occur, then 500 joules of power can be packed into this short timeframe.

For example, if 500 joules of energy is stored within a capacitor and then evenly released to a load over a 50 nanosecond timeframe, the peak power delivered to the load would only be 500 watts total.
Okay, 500 joules per pulse.  Where does number come from and how many of these pulses do we need per second?  If you can get me that number, I can build a capacitor charger (current source) that will do it.  Then it's just a matter of initiating a high voltage arc to start the discharge; again, easy stuff if you have the engineering specifications we need to build it.
Since the speed in which the plasmoid is formed is most important to the full utilization of instantaneous power, many factors play into the speed of plasmoid production.

Among these factors are electrode design, pre-ionization, type of capacitors used, voltage, spark rise time, spark discharge circuitry, and maybe even the length of the wire used to power the spark discharge.

For example, Papp put his capacitors very close to the point of spark discharge; close to the cylinder.

Electric power flows at a finite speed; one nanosecond per foot based on the voltage. If the length of the feed wire is minimized, then the plasmoid might form faster. Experimentation will tell.

An inefficient spark production process may need more joules of input power whereas a very efficient spark discharge process may need fewer joules.

IMHO, A designer of the Papp engine needs to be very familiar with the concepts of pulsed power design to minimize input energy.



~Russ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1495, on January 20th, 2013, 07:41 PM »Last edited on January 20th, 2013, 07:44 PM by ~Russ/Rwg42985
Quote from FaradayEZ on January 20th, 2013, 12:23 PM
Don't want to dempen the parade's here, but i'm still waiting for the / some real tests to begin. We have three people with poppers and we have a lot of making sense test already gathered.

I thought we really wanted to know how the papp engine functions, or do we first want to make a fluxcapacitor to get something going?

And can't we do both?
time time time... we will get there.. There was about 20 more things to add the the list and its all floating around in my head so I'm trying to figure out whats highest priority and how to achieve that. I'm just now getting to finish the controlling circuit... ( finishing drawings and finding the correct components...)


we will get there EZ with life comes patients. :)

believe me I'm itching to get back on it but family comes first...

ok enjoy. ~Russ


Matt Watts

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1497, on January 20th, 2013, 07:53 PM »
Quote from Axil on January 20th, 2013, 07:16 PM
Since the speed that the plasmoid is formed is most important to the full utilization of instantaneous power, many factors play into the speed of plasmoid production.

Among these factors are electrode design, pre-ionization, voltage, spark rise time, spark discharge circuitry, and maybe even the length of the wire used to power the spark discharge.

For example, Papp put his capacitors very close to the point of spark discharge; close to the cylinder.

Electric power flows at a finite speed; one nanosecond per foot based on the voltage. If the length of the feed wire is minimized, then the plasmoid might form faster. Experimentation will tell.

An inefficient spark production process may need more joules of input power whereas a very efficient spark discharge process may need fewer joules.

IMHO, A designer of the Papp engine needs to be very familiar with the concepts of pulsed power design to minimize input energy.
Seems a little vague.  How about this...   My plasma jet ignition uses a conventional multispark CDI to fill the initial spark gap and create an ionized path for the plasma arc to follow.  The CDI tosses about 45,000 volts across the gap which is immediately followed by 24 joules charged into a 67uF cap at about 850 volts.  I can recharge (> 2RC) this booster cap easily (using a peak of 3000 watts) in 33ms which gives me a max RPM of 3600 on a four stroke engine or 1800 RPM for a two stroke Papp engine.  In open air from a high performance spark plug, this shoots a plasma jet about an inch long.  The plasma lasts for a very short period of time--much faster than you can capture on a video camera.  That's just 24 joules; at 500 joules you would completely annihilate this spark plug probably with a 3 inch plasma ball.  Also, if you attempted to charge your booster cap to 500 joules, the only way you could do it in 33ms consistently would require you to have a 62.5KW current source.  I don't know about you, but I didn't see one of those devices attached to Papp's engine.  Now I suppose it is possible you only need the 500 joules for the first pop, after which you collect the radiant energy from the coils for the next pop.  Even still, you are going to need a bunch of caps each with their own individual charging mechanisms to keep up with a running engine.  Those charging sources need to have lots of current, that's what caps use to charge, not voltage.

Based on engineering limitations IMHO, the original Papp engine doesn't need 500 joules, three times per power stroke.  That is just way too much input power to effectively control in a unit the size of what Papp put together.  Is it still possible?  Maybe, but I doubt it.  What I suspect is a power source much like the one that I have assembled and the gases are the differentiating factor.  I'll bet I could hook up my system to a chamber with the proper gas mix and see the same results as Papp.

JM2C

Axil

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1498, on January 20th, 2013, 08:06 PM »
This is what can be done to miniaturize pulse power systems.



The pulsed power group at USC designs and builds high voltage, high current pulse generators for a variety of applications in fields such as ignition and combustion, biomedical, and agriculture. The circuit architecture for these pulse generators depends on a number of parameters including pulse energy, average output power, output amplitude, pulse width, repetition rate, and load impedance. A major focus of the group has been to miniaturize pulsed power systems that are capable of producing pulses with amplitudes between 1 and 100 kV, pulse widths between 5 and 100 ns, and output currents of hundreds of Amperes. Miniaturization primarily occurs by synthesizing new and simpler circuits for driving output opening switches, optimizing magnetic compression stages, and optimizing circuit layout. Most recently the pulsed power team has been designing nonlinear transmission lines as a means for sharpening pulse rise-times from 10 nanoseconds to sub-nanosecond and also as a means for generating bursts of microwaves.

 


Matt Watts

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1499, on January 20th, 2013, 08:36 PM »
Quote from Axil on January 20th, 2013, 08:06 PM
This is what can be done to miniaturize pulse power systems.
500 joules per pulse with a pulse rate of 33ms...   I uh uh doubt it.  I've worked with Randy over at http://laranss.com/, specifically with the TDK Lambda units, that are very capable and expensive.  I just do not see any indication from the videos and circuit diagrams of the Papp motor that something of this caliber is needed.

Helpful application notes:  http://www.us.tdk-lambda.com/hp/product_html/high_volt.htm

Anyway, before we wander way off target, we need to define the engineering specifications and take Russ' proof of concept to the next step.