I'm made an attempt to create a timing diagram from the Papp 1984 patent by reading the text and tracing the circuit diagram. Not sure if this is the best way to show it, particularly the effect of the electrodes picking up the current and moving it to the opposite cylinder.
Also, the caps charge/discharge would of course not be linear and go to zero, so this is just notional.
Thoughts?
--Glen
brilliant, i love team work. nice work!!!Quote from ghobbs003 on January 24th, 2013, 06:11 AM I'm made an attempt to create a timing diagram from the Papp 1984 patent by reading the text and tracing the circuit diagram. Not sure if this is the best way to show it, particularly the effect of the electrodes picking up the current and moving it to the opposite cylinder.
Also, the caps charge/discharge would of course not be linear and go to zero, so this is just notional.
Thoughts?
--Glen
thank you! !
~Russ
Found some errors Russ, so I'll update and repost.Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on January 26th, 2013, 03:34 AM brilliant, i love team work. nice work!!!Quote from ghobbs003 on January 24th, 2013, 06:11 AM I'm made an attempt to create a timing diagram from the Papp 1984 patent by reading the text and tracing the circuit diagram. Not sure if this is the best way to show it, particularly the effect of the electrodes picking up the current and moving it to the opposite cylinder.
Also, the caps charge/discharge would of course not be linear and go to zero, so this is just notional.
Thoughts?
--Glen
thank you! !
~Russ
I'm made an attempt to create a timing diagram from the Papp 1984 patent by reading the text and tracing the circuit diagram. Not sure if this is the best way to show it, particularly the effect of the electrodes picking up the current and moving it to the opposite cylinder.
Also, the caps charge/discharge would of course not be linear and go to zero, so this is just notional.
Thoughts?
Found some errors Russ, so I'll update and repost.
I like to keep an open mind as to what the process could be, and therefore try to avoid reading material that is blatantly incorrect.
Sorry Axil but I am not that familiar with Papp's patent.Quote from Axil on January 24th, 2013, 02:07 PM What your theory does not explain to my satisfaction is the details of how the power is transferred between cylinders down cable 31, the inter-cylinder plasmoid power transfer line. Please explain this to inform and improve my opinion as explained as follows:Quote from jabowery on January 24th, 2013, 10:49 AM I'll ignore what looks like a miswording on your part and simply respond with a quote from wikipedia on magnetic pressure in plasmoids:Quote from Axil on January 23rd, 2013, 07:50 PM Jabowery thanks for your interest in this subject.Quote from jabowery on January 23rd, 2013, 04:39 PM You're not multiplying entities beyond necessity, you're multiplying entities in order to add an inferior mechanism.
The plasmoid is all that is needed to:
1) Explain the mechanical motion of the piston,
and
2) Explain the energy storage mechanism inside the cylinder.
The plasmoid energy storage is magnetic pressure. The piston movement is from magnet pressure. The very fast rise time of the discharge is from the collapse of the magnetic field.
Capacitor discharge doesn't want to have fast rise times. Inductive collapse of magnetic fields can't help but have fast rise times.
Stop fighting mother nature and complicating things, Axil.This assertion sounds true but can be proven experimentally by using a non-magnetic material like stainless steel or plastic to form the piston.Quote The plasmoid energy storage is magnetic pressure. The piston movement is from magnet pressure. The very fast rise time of the discharge is from the collapse of the magnetic field.The external confining pressure can be mechanical -- it doesn't have to be magnetic.Quote A plasmoid has an internal pressure stemming from both the gas pressure of the plasma and the magnetic pressure of the field. To maintain an approximately static plasmoid radius, this pressure must be balanced an external confining pressure. In a field-free vacuum, for example, a plasmoid will rapidly expand and dissipate.
The plasmoid's internal magnetic pressure may present itself to the surface of the piston as mechanical pressure. Therefore the plasmoid does not "rapidly expand and dissapate". Ball lightning plasmoids are stable for periods of time that are quite long enough to allow them to serve as inductive energy storage mechanisms between cylinder firings. No capacitance is required.
At the end of the piston stroke, the plasmoid has maximum volume and can, at that point, be shorted out by the distributor causing the magnetic field to collapse (and cause the piston to return power-stroke due to the reduction in size of the plasmoid) with the corresponding spike in power from the magnetic collapse of the plasmoid-inductive storage going to the other cylinder to begin formation of that cylinder's plasmoid-inductive storage/expansion power stroke.
The "energy" -- although you meant to say "power" -- of this spike is enormous as are the momentary voltage and current.
I believe that the power of the plasmoid is converted to ionization of the noble gases through various plasma ionization mechanisms; including shockwaves, X-rays, magnetic pinch, and electron and ion impact on neutral atoms.
Ionization is the lowest common denominator of energy storage and transfer, the quantity that the buckets pick up and neutralize as they convert ionization to the flow of electric power.
The conversion of ionization into electron flow of the proper characterization requires attention to pulse power capacitor considerations.
Those considerations are associated with the shaping of the electrical power pulse down the electrical link using properly formed capacitance design. Included in these considerations are the voltage, timing and shape of the pulse on the inter-cylinder cable.
I do, however, have hands on working with Koloc during the 90s on derivatives of US Patent # 4,023,065 ~ May., 1977; Koloc 376/146 cited by Papp in US Patent # 4,428,193 and I'm giving you my impression of what is actually going on inside the chamber based on my understanding of the reason Papp cited Koloc.
You may want to read this description of the plasmoid formation process by Koloc. But read it with this caveat: At that web page, the photograph of the "plasmoid" which is diamond shaped is likely not a plasmoid at all -- it is likely a CCD artifact, the dynamics of which I can describe if desired. Koloc showed me 3 such images which he claimed were 3 sequential video frames showing the plasmoid lasting at least 100ms (3*30fps), and claimed he had lost the original video tape. After years of working with him to gain his trust I was able to locate the "lost" tape tucked away in his lab and found that these were not sequential frames from a motion video, but individual snapshots. About this time, Koloc began exhibiting what I can only describe as multiple personalities -- possibly in reaction to my closing in on his fraud. I saw similar diamond shaped CCD artifacts of much smaller size appear on the video snapshots we took. I truly believe Koloc to be gifted technically and possibly scientifically but something happened to him along the way to drive him mad -- whether it was vapors from his high power mercury switches, years of dextroamphetamine he had taken for narcolepsy, psyops attack or simply the stress of having to live with having committed fraud, I don't know. What I do know is that Robert Bussard took Koloc's work on the Spheromak in association with the U of MD seriously, and that much of what Koloc has told me about lightning, plasmoids, solar flares and sunspots seems to hold up under examination.
I've redrawn the Papp 1984 circuit so it's easier to read and understand. I split it into two pictures - one for the power stroke and one for the return. It's not anywhere near as complex as it looks in the patent when drawn like this.
I don't get why the extra 24V via the decoupling diodes to the coils - that path exists via the low-ohm (?) resistor. Couldn't find value for the resistors anywhere..
Anyone competent with Spice - maybe we can model and then get better estimates of what is happening in this circuit until we can test for real :D. If no one knows Spice well, I'll download and give it a try.
Per Axils suggestion, I'll pass through the other patents, and see if they add any further illumination.
Glen
Papp talks about the gas layering from the coils playing a part in its operation.
If I did the circles % right this shows a basic distribution of the gasses.
Kind of looks like the krypton and xenon do not interact with the electrodes.
element 119
Papp talks about the gas layering from the coils playing a part in its operation.
If I did the circles % right this shows a basic distribution of the gasses.
Kind of looks like the krypton and xenon do not interact with the electrodes.
element 119
Helium, therefore, forms the central core with the other four gases forming layers, in order, around the helium. The helium is secondarily isolated from the walls of the container by a modest vacuum (in comparison to the vacuum in hydrogen reactors) which is caused partially by the "choking" effect of the coils and partially by the enlargement of the combustion chamber as the piston moves from TDC to BDC. (Unexcited, the gases are at one atmosphere at TDC.)
Second, argon, the middle gas of the five, is a good electrical conductor and becomes an excellent conductor when (as explained infra) it is polarized during the mixing process. By placing the electrodes such that they are in the argon layer, electrical energy can be tapped from one cylinder for use in the other. During a piston's movement from BDC to TDC, the gases are caused to circulate in the cylinder by the change in the polarity of the coils, which occurs at BDC.
During such circulation, the gases remain layered, causing the argon atoms to be relatively close to each other, thereby optimizing the conductivity of the argon. This conductivity optimization is further enhanced by a mild choking effect that is due to the magnetic fields. The circulation of the highly conductive argon results in a continuous cutting of the magnetic lines of force so that the current flows through the electrodes. This production of electricity is similar to the rotating copper wire cutting the magnetic lines of force in a conventional generator except that the rotating copper wire is replaced by the rotating, highly conductive argon.
The amount of electricity that can be produced in this manner is a function of how many magnetic field lines are available to be cut. If one of the coils, or all three of the coils or two adjacent coils were energized, there would be only one field with electricity produced at each end. By energizing the top and the bottom coil, two separate fields are produced, with electricity produced at four points. A five coil system, if there were sufficient space, would produce three fields with the top, bottom and middle coils energized. Six points for electricity production would result. The number of coils that can be installed on a given cylinder is a function of space limitations.
The recombination of gas atoms during the BDC to TDC phase causes the radiation of electrical energy which also provides a minor portion of the electricity that the electrode picks up. Additional non-grounded electrodes in each cylinder would result in more electricity being tapped off. It should be noted that during the BDC to TDC phase, the anode and the cathode are also in the argon layer and, like the electrodes, they pick up electricity, which charges the capacitors around the cylinder. Third, inert gases remain a mixture and do not combine because of the completeness of the electron shells. They are therefore well suited to a cycle whereby they are continually organized and reorganized.
Tim and Bob here is what it says about the layering from the patent. The exterior coils form a magnetic field that forces the lighter gasses to the center.
“
Helium, therefore, forms the central core with the other four gases forming layers, in order, around the helium. The helium is secondarily isolated from the walls of the container by a modest vacuum (in comparison to the vacuum in hydrogen reactors) which is caused partially by the "choking" effect of the coils and partially by the enlargement of the combustion chamber as the piston moves from TDC to BDC. (Unexcited, the gases are at one atmosphere at TDC.)
Second, argon, the middle gas of the five, is a good electrical conductor and becomes an excellent conductor when (as explained infra) it is polarized during the mixing process. By placing the electrodes such that they are in the argon layer, electrical energy can be tapped from one cylinder for use in the other. During a piston's movement from BDC to TDC, the gases are caused to circulate in the cylinder by the change in the polarity of the coils, which occurs at BDC.
During such circulation, the gases remain layered, causing the argon atoms to be relatively close to each other, thereby optimizing the conductivity of the argon. This conductivity optimization is further enhanced by a mild choking effect that is due to the magnetic fields. The circulation of the highly conductive argon results in a continuous cutting of the magnetic lines of force so that the current flows through the electrodes. This production of electricity is similar to the rotating copper wire cutting the magnetic lines of force in a conventional generator except that the rotating copper wire is replaced by the rotating, highly conductive argon.
The amount of electricity that can be produced in this manner is a function of how many magnetic field lines are available to be cut. If one of the coils, or all three of the coils or two adjacent coils were energized, there would be only one field with electricity produced at each end. By energizing the top and the bottom coil, two separate fields are produced, with electricity produced at four points. A five coil system, if there were sufficient space, would produce three fields with the top, bottom and middle coils energized. Six points for electricity production would result. The number of coils that can be installed on a given cylinder is a function of space limitations.
The recombination of gas atoms during the BDC to TDC phase causes the radiation of electrical energy which also provides a minor portion of the electricity that the electrode picks up. Additional non-grounded electrodes in each cylinder would result in more electricity being tapped off. It should be noted that during the BDC to TDC phase, the anode and the cathode are also in the argon layer and, like the electrodes, they pick up electricity, which charges the capacitors around the cylinder. Third, inert gases remain a mixture and do not combine because of the completeness of the electron shells. They are therefore well suited to a cycle whereby they are continually organized and reorganized. “
element 119
...The picture of what is happening in the cylinder is thus likely to be different than Papp said, if the toroidal plasmoids are what are being formed. It's not the Argon layer that is conductive and intersects the buckets and electrodes, but an almost-superconducting [relativistic -- JAB] sheath of electrons circulating around the positive ionic core....
Assuming:
[list=a]
- The Papp engine is actually a p+B11=>3He4 reactor diluted by noble gasses to make the energy density manageable within an internal combusion engine.
- The mechanism of the p+B11=>3He4 reaction is a compound plasma structure described by US Patent # 4,023,065 ~ May., 1977; Koloc 376/146 cited by Papp in US Patent # 4,428,193.
[/list]
- There is substantially no waste heat.
We are led to the most likely hypotheses that:
[list=1]
- The energetic alphas (3He4) are being converted to electrical energy through electrohydrodynamics.
- The compound plasma structure's intense magnetic field is the means by which these energetic alphas are columnated for EHD generation.
[/list]
- There is an efficient way to reverse the construction of the compound plasma structure, such that its highly columnated energetic alphas produce charging current for the paired cylinder leaving unionized He4 at relatively low temperature as a result of the return stroke of the cylinder.
It should be noted here that under these hypotheses the energy output of the Papp engine is relatively constant as the dilution ratio cannot be changed and that, therefore, when it is not under mechanical load is has to dump large amounts of electrical energy somehow. A failure to dump this electrical energy could result in what we saw in the Feynman fiasco as the plasmoid generation current increased with each cycle.
It should also be noted that it is not necessarily the case that the released energy contributes substantially the mechanical force against the piston of the reacting plasma structure during that power stroke -- that its contribution is to the energy available for the formation of the plasma structure in the opposing cylinder's next cycle, hence that cylinder's potential for mechanical force against its piston.
The first 1972 patent explains many of the things that are also happening in the 1984 patent, so I think it is worth the time to study the 1972 patent a bit. Even though the two patents are somewhat different in the details, in many respects, they are working under the same basic principles. In the 1972 patent, Papp gives reasons for what he is doing; but in the 1984 patent he only says what he is doing but does not explain why.Quote from kcd I like to keep an open mind as to what the process could be, and therefore try to avoid reading material that is blatantly incorrect.
We became involved in the late seventies through Engle Enterprises. Papp International did not exist. The engines were completed and running in 1980. Papp was already working on his personal design when we met. Our design and Papp's design were similar only in purpose. It was not only our design that ran, but it was our design that he used on his final patent and the reason it went beyond the initial fuel mixing apparatus title. We were much later than the Volvo engines and even after the Leland which he ran for Convair.
A couple of quick answers. 1st the start-up. the engine starts on the second rotation or it doesn't start. The first rotation initiates the timing to provide the number 1 cylinder with its pre-excitement during the upstroke. A full rotation after initial and then the start procedure.
The most I ever saw was probably five or six hours. When my dad, John, who was retired to Florida stopped by Papp ran the engine for us and left it run while we went out for dinner and entertainment. Afterwards we came back and sat around the pool before shutting it down. I probably ran for much longer periods but none that I can fully attest to.
If I may digress just a bit, although this is somewhat related. As Dr. McKubre discussed at the Tesla show, one of the reason he feels there is something unique and real about the engine was my repair experiences with it. One afternoon when I was hard at work drinking beer and soaking up the sun at Treasure Island sometime after watching it run, Papp called and wanted me to come over right away. The engine was making a loud knocking and he feared we were losing a bearing. Upon examination and after listening to it run for a short time, I decided to tear it apart.
The head configuration on Tom and my engine was such that we could rotate the piston clear up, insert retaining screws into the outer chamber and simply unscrew the entire assembly from the lower piston without venting or disturbing the contents. Beside this important consideration, the configuration also allowed the Teflon V stack to run un-lubricated without any side load while the normally lubed lower cylinder carried the loads. I removed both heads intact.
I drained the oil, rolled the engine over, pulled the pan, fixed the knock (abit of stress relief in the oil strainer had pulled it to near the throw). Noted that the was nothing unusual inside or outside the engine. Reassembled everything. Replaced the head assemblies and wiring and Papp restarted it. From start to finish I was never absent from the room. The same fuel was in the chambers after as before. There was no fear or reluctance or attempts to hide anything during the procedure.
...
There is a process in some stellar cores with extreme conditions known as the triple-alpha process* in which Be8, during its exceedingly short half-life, fuses with a third He4 nucleus to form C12 but the only claim of "ash" made by Papp is the presence of Boron powder. While this might lead one to believe that the reaction is He3+2He4 => B11+beta, the accepted route of nucleosynthesis of B11 excludes even stellar processes, let alone those that can be achieved in conditions obtained in a man-made system -- unless that system can somehow produce energetic cosmic rays (which is the accepted route of nucleosynthesis of B11). Also note that combining He nuclei to form a Boron nuclei is the reverse of the exothermic production of 3 He nuclei from a Boron nuclei plus a proton -- so it appears it would be endothermic, although I haven't done the calculation as the IAEA has taken down its chart of radionuclides that I normally rely on to do nuclear chemistry calculations...
[Vo]:Recombination
Axil Axil Tue, 14 Aug 2012 12:11:07 -0700
Recombination
What John Rohner said in an interview the other day complicates the nuclear
reactions going on in LENR.
John said that the original Papp engine produced boron as an ash product
and as a consequence, demonstrated relatively poor reaction efficiency.
Because of his efforts to optimize the reaction in his engine, he gets far
better efficiency than Papp did: more than two times better. John said that
like Papp, the Helium in his noble gas mix was fusing in his engine, but an
inverse fission process is clearing the boron ash back to helium so that
only energy is produced. If this complicated nuclear cycle is in fact
occurring, it will be very hard to characterize the nuclear processes at
work in these LENR reactors.
Cheers: Axil
OK, so now this is looking interesting depending on the amount of He3 in the Helium!
Dear simon ,You have said that once mixed the noble gases stay mixed and I 'm not smart enough to under stand why.I don't dought you but would like to know how to test your statement. Common sense would lead me to believe that helium which has a atomic weight of 2 should rise to the top of the vessel when mixed with the other 5 noble gases. Once running in the engine they wouldn't have time to separate with being acted by some force like magnetic which will move the electrons even in a noble gas. I'm only a electronic tech. so please answer in laymans terms if thats possible. Thanks Ed Hemphill
Dear Simon I ment to say Would not separate with out being being acted on by a force . sorry Ed
Hi Russ, thank you for the great video,
my name is Joe from Alhambra, CA
got some question to ask of this circuit?
at 2:11 & 7:56 what is the 2 component left to the resister
at 2:18 don't see any connection at back, what those component doing in this circuit?
at 2:30 what is in the box, 50kv cap? what value?
at 2:53 usually ferrite core is for high frequence, and laminate core is for low frequence. is this circuit is high & low frequence ?
pleas someone give me the answer, or email to me at
hstnu.jc@gmail.com thank you