Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.

~Russ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1400, on January 14th, 2013, 11:36 PM »Last edited on January 14th, 2013, 11:38 PM by ~Russ/Rwg42985
Quote from Axil on January 14th, 2013, 07:24 PM
Quote from BobN on January 14th, 2013, 07:11 PM
Quote from Axil on January 14th, 2013, 06:49 PM
Quote from k c dias on January 14th, 2013, 02:15 PM
Quote from Axil on January 14th, 2013, 12:38 PM
From vortex:
Axil Axil Thu, 10 Jan 2013 16:34:33 -0800

The noble gases are not consumed. They revert back to their concentrated
clustered state (think buckyballs).

The next cycle starts out with the concentrated clustered noble gases which
expand again under the stimulation of the next spark discharge.
Axil,

This may sound nutty, but I have been looking on the net to find the answer to: When a volume of water is put in a position to do work due to its expansion upon freezing, is the work performed accounted for?  Is the 'phase change work' free?  Of course the heat of fusion must be removed to form the ice, and then returned to melt the ice, but is the work performed accounted for?

Suppose the expansion of the concentrated clustered noble gases is a change of state, the energy to cause this transition analogous to the heat of fusion for ice.  This would account for the change in pressure, at constant volume, state 1 to state 2 on the attached P_V chart.  State 2 to state 3 is the isentropic expansion of the gas, 3 to 4 is the reversion back to the concentrated clustered state, and 5 to 1 is the nearly isobaric (for all practical purposes) compression back to top dead center.

Put some energy in at '1', take it back out at '3' and '4', and take a big free ride from '2' to '3'.

kcd

PS P_V chart is my estimate based on Papp's dyno tested engine.
Over unity energy might come about when the x-ray photons lower the coulomb barrier during the cluster explosion chain reaction process. “Barrier suppression ionization” changes the way charge attraction and repulsion work; that is, it supresses it thereby modifing the vacuum energy.

When the cluster explodes (a big free ride from '2' to '3') and the cluster is destroyed, then the rule of electrostatic charge repulsion returns back to normal (3 to 4).

The bigger the cluster that can be fabricated, the more energy is derived from the cluster explosion chain reaction process because the cluster stays together for a longer time and therefore more energy can be pulled out of the vacuum.

Noble gas cluster creation and destruction must be an ongoing process in the Papp cylinder.

By the way, lowering the coulomb barrier is where the energy from cold fusion comes from.
Axil

This sounds quite interesting and a good possibility. If Xenon is the gas reacting in this manner, what are the other gases doing. It seems like they could be eliminated or do you think they are also reacting in this manner.

BobN
More than one noble gas in the mix can form a complex cluster. Also, some noble gases may catalyze cluster formation in other noble gases; more research is required to give us an answer.

Papp developed this stuff over decades and he came up with the Papp noble gas mix; he could be right after all.
so we now have a theory that truly makes sense... im really really liking this. the ideas and thoughts make scene.

now my 2 cents.
Quote
b) - Laser-ablation sources (surface sources, sputtering): Photon or heavy particle impact on a surface leads to the desorption of atoms or molecules. The released atoms or molecules are partially ionized and form plasma. Similar like in the gas aggregation sources the plasma is cooled by present rare gas and cluster formation is achieved
so why not the plasma in the chamber? there is already ionization energy in the chamber via radioactive sources. then we add the HV charges. and then a blast of energy... i mean this all must set up a system for clusters to form?

also, with that theory the crazy mess of stuff papp's gas lab... lets just say 2 of the 50 things he did to his gas worked... but it all was just guess work. so it would take years to emanate what is not helping the prosses?  ( or the other stuff was added to through off people...) any way just some thoughts.

also what happens to a cluster after it explodes? dose it form other clusters with that kind of energy?!?!

also we should read the last patent, read the gas lab part of the patent. with this theory in mined... i bet it will make a lot more sense now... :)

grate work everyone. ~Russ

oh. and while i was cleaning i found an old old fire alarm... :) it had a 2 americium, and 2 microcuries of it! haha that's like 3 times as much as nowadays... :)  i will be playing with it. and HV to see if we can make use of it.

Axil

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1401, on January 15th, 2013, 12:24 AM »Last edited on January 15th, 2013, 12:59 AM by Axil
Here are some detailed experimental results involving the explosion of Xenon.


[attachment=3036]

At 97nm with power density of 10exp14 W/cm2 charge states up to Xe8+ with kinetic energies up to 2.5keV are visible.

10exp14 W/cm2 is a lot of power.

How hot is 2.5 KeV

1 eV = 11604.505 Kelvin.

Xenon Cluster fragments were hot after explosion at

(2.500) (11604.505 ) =  29,011,262.5 degrees

A cluster with 1500 atoms will produce (2.5 KeV)(1500) = 3750 KeV.

By comparison a uranium atom produces 200 eV when it fissions.

~Russ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1402, on January 15th, 2013, 02:10 AM »
Quote from Axil on January 15th, 2013, 12:24 AM
Here are some detailed experimental results involving the explosion of Xenon.




At 97nm with power density of 10exp14 W/cm2 charge states up to Xe8+ with kinetic energies up to 2.5keV are visible.

10exp14 W/cm2 is a lot of power.

How hot is 2.5 KeV

1 eV = 11604.505 Kelvin.

Xenon Cluster fragments were hot after explosion at

(2.500) (11604.505 ) =  29,011,262.5 degrees

A cluster with 1500 atoms will produce (2.5 KeV)(1500) = 3750 KeV.

By comparison a uranium atom produces 200 eV when it fissions.
ok, so... with this in mined. how much force would a "cluster" ( i know there are different sizes of clusters, lets just go with what ever we have info on...)  produce when it explodes?
good works Axil

~Russ
this will give us some more clues.

FaradayEZ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1403, on January 15th, 2013, 02:49 AM »Last edited on January 15th, 2013, 03:18 AM by FaradayEZ
Away from blasting...

Lets assume that Papp's special treatment was condensing the volume of the gasmix. And maybe we can duplicate this by following the John's accident. Popping with a schortcutted coil around the cylinder.

Lets assume we now have such a mix.

Then we need to get it to plasma by using the minimum amount of energy.

If we look at how high the input energy was in the papp engine, we also should be able to get it to work with that.

Assuming we can't...why not then? We haven't got the right mixture yet? Or is it that the way of delivering that energy also will have the next secret?

If that is the case, then i think we have to see what bond the energy is supposed to break and if that is a too high goal*, can we then use vibration to lower the input and still get the high goal reached? Like with the Tomaka bridge example?

* in the meaning that we won't have overunity anymore

And should we use a part of the coils surrounding the papp engine, to get the mixture faster back into its small - volume - state? Is that also why papp used them?

And if the coils can do the one, the contraction, can they then also do the other, the expansion?




~Russ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1404, on January 15th, 2013, 02:57 AM »
Quote from FaradayEZ on January 15th, 2013, 02:49 AM
Away from blasting...

Lets assume that Papp's special treatment was condensing the volume of the gasmix. And maybe we can duplicate this by following the John's accident. Popping with a schortcutted coil around the cylinder.

Lets assume we now have such a mix.

Then we need to get it to plasma by using the minimum amount of energy.

If we look at how high the input energy was in the papp engine, we also should be able to get it to work with that.

Why can't we? We haven't got the right mixture yet? Or is it that the way of delivering that energy also will have the next secret?

If that is the case, then i think we have to see what bond the energy is supposed to break and if that is a too high goal*, can we then use vibration to lower the input and still get the high goal reached? Like with the Tomaka bridge example?

* in the meaning that we won't have overunity anymore
right now our most problematic thing is the radioactive "buckets"

for the rest of the system to be most useful we must have all parts...  

just some thoughts...

now i do believe that there is more than one way to do it and i also do not see the harm in using radioactive substances if its supplied correctly. ( i just don't have the licenses to acquire it...)

:)

~Russ

Lynx

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1405, on January 15th, 2013, 03:41 AM »
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on January 15th, 2013, 02:57 AM
right now our most problematic thing is the radioactive "buckets"

for the rest of the system to be most useful we must have all parts...  

just some thoughts...

now i do believe that there is more than one way to do it and i also do not see the harm in using radioactive substances if its supplied correctly. ( i just don't have the licenses to acquire it...)

:)

~Russ
The only one putting himself in harms way is you Russ, the rest of us can sit safely at home and suggest using plutonium, uranium, tallium, whatever.
We, as in the ones of us who's not trying out any of this that is, can then observe what possible health aspects there are to be taken into consideration,
judging by what you have to report.

Stay safe, that's all I'm saying.

ghobbs003

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1406, on January 15th, 2013, 07:02 AM »
Hi All,

My first post. Russ and team, great work!

I've not seen mention of Papps South African patent (attached). There is a lot of specifics here, required geometry, detailed materials specs, purpose of the gas layering, and in particular the gas processing. Some highlights:
- 1 ATM +/- 5% at TDC (as has already been identified)
- 40,000V HV pulses
- Plasma duration no longer than 10-6 s (otherwise damage)
- Constant 24V across electrodes maintains pre-excitement
- During ignition discharge helium in the center layer splits into hydrogen
- Minute "fusion" in helium consisting of the energy conversion of a single helium atom (in conflict with 'split' above??)
- Gas layering insulates helium from cylinder walls
- Magnetic field provides conductive enhancement of argon
- Magnet field & gas layering provide cushioning, "taking up some of the pressure generated by the explosion and preventing the rupturing of the cylinder walls"
- Magnet field & electrodes in Argon layer (conductor) pick up current from the rotating argon cutting the magnetic lines of force
- Additional electrical energy is picked up by the anode & cathode (also in the argon layer) during the BDT to TDC phase
- 2.057 MHz to 27.120 MHz RF to change engine speed (adjustable by foot peddle)
- Graphite shielding to protect from radiation (!)
- Detailed description of the fuel preparation
- Precise current measurements, inductance, etc

Forgive me if this is old news...

Blessings all,

Glen

[attachment=3039]

~Russ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1407, on January 15th, 2013, 07:33 AM »
Quote from ghobbs003 on January 15th, 2013, 07:02 AM
Hi All,

My first post. Russ and team, great work!

I've not seen mention of Papps South African patent (attached). There is a lot of specifics here, required geometry, detailed materials specs, purpose of the gas layering, and in particular the gas processing. Some highlights:
- 1 ATM +/- 5% at TDC (as has already been identified)
- 40,000V HV pulses
- Plasma duration no longer than 10-6 s (otherwise damage)
- Constant 24V across electrodes maintains pre-excitement
- During ignition discharge helium in the center layer splits into hydrogen
- Minute "fusion" in helium consisting of the energy conversion of a single helium atom (in conflict with 'split' above??)
- Gas layering insulates helium from cylinder walls
- Magnetic field provides conductive enhancement of argon
- Magnet field & gas layering provide cushioning, "taking up some of the pressure generated by the explosion and preventing the rupturing of the cylinder walls"
- Magnet field & electrodes in Argon layer (conductor) pick up current from the rotating argon cutting the magnetic lines of force
- Additional electrical energy is picked up by the anode & cathode (also in the argon layer) during the BDT to TDC phase
- 2.057 MHz to 27.120 MHz RF to change engine speed (adjustable by foot peddle)
- Graphite shielding to protect from radiation (!)
- Detailed description of the fuel preparation
- Precise current measurements, inductance, etc

Forgive me if this is old news...

Blessings all,

Glen
Glen, thanks for the post, yes this is the same as the us patent. But some times, just some times there slightly deferent so it's worth reviewing.

Thanks again for the post. Blessings. ~Russ

Jeff Nading

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1408, on January 15th, 2013, 07:33 AM »Last edited on January 15th, 2013, 07:37 AM by Jeff Nading
Quote from ghobbs003 on January 15th, 2013, 07:02 AM
Hi All,

My first post. Russ and team, great work!

I've not seen mention of Papps South African patent (attached). There is a lot of specifics here, required geometry, detailed materials specs, purpose of the gas layering, and in particular the gas processing. Some highlights:
- 1 ATM +/- 5% at TDC (as has already been identified)
- 40,000V HV pulses
- Plasma duration no longer than 10-6 s (otherwise damage)
- Constant 24V across electrodes maintains pre-excitement
- During ignition discharge helium in the center layer splits into hydrogen
- Minute "fusion" in helium consisting of the energy conversion of a single helium atom (in conflict with 'split' above??)
- Gas layering insulates helium from cylinder walls
- Magnetic field provides conductive enhancement of argon
- Magnet field & gas layering provide cushioning, "taking up some of the pressure generated by the explosion and preventing the rupturing of the cylinder walls"
- Magnet field & electrodes in Argon layer (conductor) pick up current from the rotating argon cutting the magnetic lines of force
- Additional electrical energy is picked up by the anode & cathode (also in the argon layer) during the BDT to TDC phase
- 2.057 MHz to 27.120 MHz RF to change engine speed (adjustable by foot peddle)
- Graphite shielding to protect from radiation (!)
- Detailed description of the fuel preparation
- Precise current measurements, inductance, etc

Forgive me if this is old news...

Blessings all,

Glen
I have not seen this, so I don't think it to be old news as far as a foriegn patent, thanks for posting this info Glen, good find and welcome to the forum.:cool::D:P

~Russ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1409, on January 15th, 2013, 07:45 AM »
Quote from Lynx on January 15th, 2013, 03:41 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on January 15th, 2013, 02:57 AM
right now our most problematic thing is the radioactive "buckets"

for the rest of the system to be most useful we must have all parts...  

just some thoughts...

now i do believe that there is more than one way to do it and i also do not see the harm in using radioactive substances if its supplied correctly. ( i just don't have the licenses to acquire it...)

:)

~Russ
The only one putting himself in harms way is you Russ, the rest of us can sit safely at home and suggest using plutonium, uranium, tallium, whatever.
We, as in the ones of us who's not trying out any of this that is, can then observe what possible health aspects there are to be taken into consideration,
judging by what you have to report.

Stay safe, that's all I'm saying.
Will do bro! Thanks! ~Russ

Axil

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1410, on January 15th, 2013, 08:43 AM »Last edited on January 15th, 2013, 08:47 AM by Axil
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on January 15th, 2013, 02:10 AM
Quote from Axil on January 15th, 2013, 12:24 AM
Here are some detailed experimental results involving the explosion of Xenon.




At 97nm with power density of 10exp14 W/cm2 charge states up to Xe8+ with kinetic energies up to 2.5keV are visible.

10exp14 W/cm2 is a lot of power.

How hot is 2.5 KeV

1 eV = 11604.505 Kelvin.

Xenon Cluster fragments were hot after explosion at

(2.500) (11604.505 ) =  29,011,262.5 degrees

A cluster with 1500 atoms will produce (2.5 KeV)(1500) = 3750 KeV.

By comparison a uranium atom produces 200 eV when it fissions.
ok, so... with this in mined. how much force would a "cluster" ( i know there are different sizes of clusters, lets just go with what ever we have info on...)  produce when it explodes?
good works Axil

~Russ
this will give us some more clues.
The power that you can get out of the noble gas clusters is exponentially proportional to the intensity of the x-rays that you can produce.

For example, if you can take a look at slide 6 (Kinetic energy of the ejected ions) and the associated graph on the left (ion charge state).

The bullet (Quadratic dependence on charge), it tells us that the more ionization you can produce in the cluster, the higher that the kinetic energy of the exploding ions will have. This energy goes up exponentially with the ionization level.

With xenon, the ionization level can go up to +40. You can only imagine how powerful those exploding xenon ions can become.

With helium, there are only 2 electrons, so what we see now in your current experiments are ionization energy levels that are very small.

I will address the options involving high intensity x-ray production in upcoming posts.

At the end of the day, there are two important parameters that define the level of power that can be produced in the Papp reaction, cluster size and x-ray intensity.

PS - As a preview of upcoming posts, you can produce high levels of nuclear radiation and gamma rays just from the spark discharge if that discharge is powerful enough.
 


Jeff Nading

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1411, on January 15th, 2013, 08:57 AM »Last edited on January 15th, 2013, 08:58 AM by Jeff Nading
Quote from Axil on January 15th, 2013, 08:43 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on January 15th, 2013, 02:10 AM
Quote from Axil on January 15th, 2013, 12:24 AM
Here are some detailed experimental results involving the explosion of Xenon.




At 97nm with power density of 10exp14 W/cm2 charge states up to Xe8+ with kinetic energies up to 2.5keV are visible.

10exp14 W/cm2 is a lot of power.

How hot is 2.5 KeV

1 eV = 11604.505 Kelvin.

Xenon Cluster fragments were hot after explosion at

(2.500) (11604.505 ) =  29,011,262.5 degrees

A cluster with 1500 atoms will produce (2.5 KeV)(1500) = 3750 KeV.

By comparison a uranium atom produces 200 eV when it fissions.
ok, so... with this in mined. how much force would a "cluster" ( i know there are different sizes of clusters, lets just go with what ever we have info on...)  produce when it explodes?
good works Axil

~Russ
this will give us some more clues.
The power that you can get out of the noble gas clusters is exponentially proportional to the intensity of the x-rays that you can produce.

For example, if you can take a look at slide 6 (Kinetic energy of the ejected ions) and the associated graph on the left (ion charge state).

The bullet (Quadratic dependence on charge), it tells us that the more ionization you can produce in the cluster, the higher that the kinetic energy of the exploding ions will have. This energy goes up exponentially with the ionization level.

With xenon, the ionization level can go up to +40. You can only imagine how powerful those exploding xenon ions can become.

With helium, there are only 2 electrons, so what we see now in your current experiments are ionization energy levels that are very small.

I will address the options involving high intensity x-ray production in upcoming posts.

At the end of the day, there are two important parameters that define the level of power that can be produced in the Papp reaction, cluster size and x-ray intensity.

PS - As a preview of upcoming posts, you can produce high levels of nuclear radiation and gamma rays just from the spark discharge if that discharge is powerful enough.
:idea: Would 1 mm graphite coating or film around and on the outside of the cylinder be enough to protect one from these types of radiation? You can buy graphite flexible sheets different thicknesses, widths and lengths.

Axil

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1412, on January 15th, 2013, 09:34 AM »
Quote from Jeff Nading on January 15th, 2013, 08:57 AM
:idea: Would 1 mm graphite coating or film around and on the outside of the cylinder be enough to protect one from these types of radiation? You can buy graphite flexible sheets different thicknesses, widths and lengths.
Lead or tungsten is used to shield against high energy EMF (gamma-rays).

Graphite moderates neutrons but does not shield them.

Jeff Nading

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1413, on January 15th, 2013, 09:45 AM »
Quote from Axil on January 15th, 2013, 09:34 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on January 15th, 2013, 08:57 AM
:idea: Would 1 mm graphite coating or film around and on the outside of the cylinder be enough to protect one from these types of radiation? You can buy graphite flexible sheets different thicknesses, widths and lengths.
Lead or tungsten is used to shield against high energy EMF (gamma-rays).

Graphite moderates neutrons but does not shield them.
Ok, you can buy lead sheets as well and is easily shaped to the cylinder and will hold it's shape.:D example here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LEAD-SHEET-300mm-x-100mm-x-1-8mm-code-4-thickness-/360561793714?pt=UK_BOI_Ceilings_Walls_Roofing_ET&hash=item53f3285ab2

Slickhanz

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1414, on January 15th, 2013, 10:23 AM »Last edited on January 15th, 2013, 11:07 PM by ~Russ/Rwg42985
Quote from FaradayEZ on January 15th, 2013, 02:49 AM
Away from blasting...

Lets assume that Papp's special treatment was condensing the volume of the gasmix. And maybe we can duplicate this by following the John's accident. Popping with a schortcutted coil around the cylinder.

Lets assume we now have such a mix.

Then we need to get it to plasma by using the minimum amount of energy.

If we look at how high the input energy was in the papp engine, we also should be able to get it to work with that.

Assuming we can't...why not then? We haven't got the right mixture yet? Or is it that the way of delivering that energy also will have the next secret?

If that is the case, then i think we have to see what bond the energy is supposed to break and if that is a too high goal*, can we then use vibration to lower the input and still get the high goal reached? Like with the Tomaka bridge example?

* in the meaning that we won't have overunity anymore

And should we use a part of the coils surrounding the papp engine, to get the mixture faster back into its small - volume - state? Is that also why papp used them?

And if the coils can do the one, the contraction, can they then also do the other, the expansion?
I see the coils working this way:  they are excited during ignition creating a pressure increase. It is my feeling that in the 2011 or 2012 tesla tech interview that it is mentioned that a piston smaller than 2" can't be used. This is probably due to the strength of a magnetic field on a cylinder. I have some testing to do on that yet. So essentially the coils will create a smaller cylinder bore for the plasma passage upon plasma discharge.  When the piston hits BDC the EM are off and you would therefore get rapid expansion and create vacuum and it seems recluster the noble gases.
This also would explain the coolness of the cylinders as it is slightly a refrigeration effect.





k c dias

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1415, on January 15th, 2013, 10:49 AM »Last edited on January 15th, 2013, 10:58 AM by k c dias
Quote from Slickhanz on January 15th, 2013, 10:23 AM
I see the coils working this way:  they are excited during ignition creating a pressure increase. It is my feeling that in the 2011 or 2012 tesla tech interview that it is mentioned that a piston smaller than 2" can't be used. This is probably due to the strength of a magnetic field on a cylinder. I have some testing to do on that yet. So essentially the coils will create a smaller cylinder bore for the plasma passage upon plasma discharge.  When the piston hits BDC the EM are off and you would therefore get rapid expansion and create vacuum and it seems recluster the noble gases.
This also would explain the coolness of the cylinders as it is slightly a refrigeration effect.
Regarding the 2" piston thing.  I could be true, but consider the source.  No one since Papp has duplicated the process, so we should not unquestionably believe any of them.  Papp did not fully understand his process, and what he did understand about it was written to be intentionally misleading.  So one possible, and likely unpopular path to take is to forget what you know, or think you know, and rethink what could actually be happening based on the small amount of actual facts about the engine.

You say you have some testing to do.  That is absolutely what is needed - full speed ahead.  I have test to do as well, I'll be starting with a 1/2" ID test tube.  It may fail miserably, but I won't know until I try.:)

kcd

PS Way out on the edge here, but there may not even be a plasma formation - tar and feather me, but that what I currently think.:D

Axil

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1416, on January 15th, 2013, 12:08 PM »Last edited on January 15th, 2013, 12:25 PM by Axil
As far as I know right now, there are three ways to produce X-rays: High voltage spark discharge, Plasmoids, and Laser stimulation.

Starting off with High Voltage Spark Discharge

There are two processes by which x rays are produced in the anode of an x-ray tube. In one process, the deceleration of electrons produces x rays, and these x rays are called bremsstrahlung, or braking radiation.

This second process is atomic in nature and produces characteristic x-rays, so called because they are characteristic of the anode material.



The x-ray spectrum in the figure above is typical of what is produced by an x-ray tube, showing a broad curve of bremsstrahlung radiation with characteristic x-ray peaks on it.

The smooth part of the spectrum is bremsstrahlung radiation, while the peaks are characteristic of the anode material. A different anode material would have characteristic x-ray peaks at different frequencies.

Each element has its own characteristic electromagnetic spectrum. This spectrum is defined by the orbitals of the electrons associated with the element.

X rays lie at the high-frequency end of an atom’s spectrum and are characteristic of the atom as well.

The spectrum in the figure above is collected over a period of time in which many electrons strike the anode, with a variety of possible outcomes for each hit. The broad range of x-ray energies in the bremsstrahlung radiation indicates that an incident electron’s energy is not usually converted entirely into photon energy. The highest-energy x-ray produced is one for which all of the electron’s energy was converted to photon energy. Thus the accelerating voltage and the maximum x-ray energy are related by conservation of energy. Electric potential energy is converted to kinetic energy and then to photon energy, so that a 100-kV accelerating voltage produces x-ray photons with a maximum energy of 100 keV.

See Bremsstrahlung

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsstrahlung

Next, some electrons excite atoms in the anode. Part of the energy that they deposit by collision with an atom results in one or more of the atom’s inner electrons being knocked into a higher orbit or the atom being ionized. When the anode’s atoms de-excite, they emit characteristic electromagnetic radiation. The most energetic of these are produced when an inner-shell vacancy is filled—that is, when an n=1 or n=2 shell electron has been excited to a higher level, and another electron falls into the vacant spot.

A characteristic x-ray is electromagnetic (EM) radiation emitted by an atom when an inner-shell vacancy is filled. X-rays created when an electron falls into an n=1 shell vacancy are called K type when they come from the next higher level; that is, an n=2 to n=1 transition.

The labels K, L, M,... come from the older alphabetical labeling of shells starting with K rather than using the principal quantum numbers 1, 2, 3, …. A more energetic K type x ray is produced when an electron falls into an n=1 shell vacancy from the n=3 shell; that is, an n=3 to n=1 transition. Similarly, when an electron falls into the n=2 shell from the n=3 shell, an L type x ray is created.

The energies of these x-rays depend on the energies of electron states in the particular atom and, thus, are characteristic of that element: every element has its own set of x-ray energies (see figure below). This property can be used to identify elements, for example, to find trace (small) amounts of an element in an environmental or biological sample.



When resonance is mentioned, in terms of absorption of x-rays, it means that the x-ray frequency matches one of the energy levels of the electron states in the particular atom.

High voltage spark discharge is not my favored method of x-ray generation because it has tradeoffs, limitations and engineering considerations.

For example, plasma facing is the biggest problem associated with ware resistance of the electrodes. The anode is particularly susceptible to it. The expanding plasma from the spark will do far more damage than the x-ray pulse. From Rout et al on anode materials in IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science.
Quote
Plasma sheath (pinch) current in a low energy (2.2 kJ) plasma focus device was measured fur different anode and insulator materials. Among the anode materials, the highest sheath current was observed with tungsten and the lowest with aluminum. Among the ceramic insulators the maximum plasma sheath current was obtained with quartz and the minimum with alumina. The computed high Z (atomic number) impurities in plasma sheath, however, were least in the plasma focus with alumina insulator. None of the nonceramic (plastic) insulators produced neutrons, as the plasma sheath was nonuniform and was highly contaminated with impurities
To generate high powered ions, we need very high energy x-rays. To do this, we need very high input voltage ate the electrodes.
In this case, the x-ray spectrum at the high end of the x-ray spectrum will be a bremsstrahlung spectrum with an endpoint near the maximum spark voltage.

But for a very high voltage of roughly 750 keV, most of the Bremsstrahlung spectrum will be concentrated at 1/3 of the endpoint or 250 keV.  

Time to compare electrode materials based on what is known from other systems:

Tungsten is dense. Its melting point is 3422 C (Wikipedia). Electrical resistivity is 52.8 nOhm-m. Because of its high density, Tungsten is used as a high energy EMF shield material. It will absorb 99.9% of the x-rays at 250 keV in a 1 cm thick sheet (Numbers from NIST X-COM Data base).  
Tungsten absorbs hydrogen but will re-emit it when hot (~100 C). There are no chemistry problems with noble gases.

A low Z element might make for a better electrode when producing x-rays. But because these materials are not dense, electrons will travel along way into them before they hit something.

I don’t know of any chemical reactions with boron, and it is very resistant to plasma facing. I would look at boron for electrodes.

A light electrode material is optimum when you are using it to produce a plasmoid. Note: Russ is now producing a plasmoid.

Because of its high density, Tungsten has a long history of being a robust electrode material in a number of plasma facing applications. It will produce more x-rays than any other common material but it can take the heat of the plasma and the chemistry. But it is very energy inefficient at converting spark energy to x-ray energy.

Carbon is dense. Carbon does not melt under most conditions but it sublimates (goes straight to gas) at 3642C. Electrical resistivity is 2500 nOhm-m. It will absorb 22% of the x-rays at 250 keV. Carbon forms a stable carbide with boron under plasma bombardment.

Carbon in the graphite phase (this includes nano-tubes and other carbon compounds) is very susceptible to etching by hydrogen plasma. This is how you can remove graphite from diamond in lab created diamonds. Sorry, diamond is one of the world’s best electrical insulators…

Carbon might be a good option is a noble gas environment.

Beryllium is not dense. Melts at 1290 C. Electrical resistivity is 36 nOhm-m. Beryllium will absorb only 17% of the x-rays at 250 keV. Comes with a warning from most vendors akin to ‘May cause death’. It is a known carcinogen as a dust or powder. It’s not like tobacco either. You get five years at best. Beryllium also has a nasty nuclear side. It will emit neutrons if photons of sufficient energy interact with it. So much for the radiation free system. With beryllium, x-rays become neutrons….

The melting point of the electrode is directly related to plasma facing tolerance. To vaporize the material you have to supply energy to melt it. Tungsten and carbon beat beryllium by a factor of three. Carbon is damaged by chemical reactions. But if you stay with noble gases, you might be OK. Carbon is a poor electrical conductor so it will absorb electrical energy needlessly. If carbon is doped with boron, its conductivity goes way up.

Boron doped carbon is my choice for the electrode material assuming plasmoid production which I favor.

If hydrogen is included in the gas mix, it might be fine in the boron-only-hydrogen environment.

Beryllium is energy efficient in terms of x-ray production, but Beryllium has a dark side in terms of radiation and health concerns.

The buckets electrodes filled with other material are a special case.  I need to write another post on buckets because this post is getting too long.




k c dias

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1418, on January 15th, 2013, 12:19 PM »Last edited on January 15th, 2013, 12:28 PM by k c dias
Quote from Axil on January 15th, 2013, 12:08 PM
As far as I know right now, there are three ways to produce X-rays: High voltage spark discharge, Plasmoids, and Laser stimulation.
Papp mighta done it ol'school - he was a real fan of Phosphorus.  But did he use P-32??
From: http://www.uic.edu/depts/envh/RSS/DataSheets/P32.html
Quote
P-32 emits high energy beta particles that generate bremsstrahlung x rays when striking other materials.  Bremsstrahlung production is greatest in high atomic numbered substances such as lead, and lowest in low atomic numbered substances such as plastic.  Acrylic beta shields and storage containers are commonly available from many vendors.  Even in low atomic numbered substances, bremsstrahlung x rays can be generated in high enough abundance to create a radiation hazard.  These x rays can be detected by performing a radiation survey with a thin end-window geiger counter.  Concentrated solutions should be stored in glass or plastic vials sufficiently thick to absorb the beta particles, within a lead container that is a few millimeters thick to attenuate the bremsstrahlung x rays.
Shield P-32 with an aluminum bucket and out squirts x-rays.
Quote from Jeff Nading on January 15th, 2013, 12:18 PM
Yes, test then post results, that's all we can do.:cool::D:P
I know! I know! I gotta get off my ass in front of the computer and go test!  :D:P:);)


Jeff Nading

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1419, on January 15th, 2013, 12:27 PM »
Quote from k c dias on January 15th, 2013, 12:19 PM
Quote from Axil on January 15th, 2013, 12:08 PM
As far as I know right now, there are three ways to produce X-rays: High voltage spark discharge, Plasmoids, and Laser stimulation.
Papp mighta done it ol'school - he was a real fan of Phosphorus.  But did he use P-32??
From: http://www.uic.edu/depts/envh/RSS/DataSheets/P32.html

"P-32 emits high energy beta particles that generate bremsstrahlung x rays when striking other materials.  Bremsstrahlung production is greatest in high atomic numbered substances such as lead, and lowest in low atomic numbered substances such as plastic.  Acrylic beta shields and storage containers are commonly available from many vendors.  Even in low atomic numbered substances, bremsstrahlung x rays can be generated in high enough abundance to create a radiation hazard.  These x rays can be detected by performing a radiation survey with a thin end-window geiger counter.  Concentrated solutions should be stored in glass or plastic vials sufficiently thick to absorb the beta particles, within a lead container that is a few millimeters thick to attenuate the bremsstrahlung x rays."

Shield P-32 with an aluminum bucket and out squirts x-rays.
Quote from Jeff Nading on January 15th, 2013, 12:18 PM
Yes, test then post results, that's all we can do.:cool::D:P
I know! I know! I gotta get off my ***** in front of the computer and go test!  :D:P:);)
Well Kc you are doing better than I am, I'm out in the freezing cold welding, just taking a break. My day job keeps getting in the way.:D:P

FaradayEZ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1420, on January 15th, 2013, 09:33 PM »Last edited on January 15th, 2013, 10:21 PM by FaradayEZ
Quote from k c dias on January 15th, 2013, 10:49 AM
Quote from Slickhanz on January 15th, 2013, 10:23 AM
I see the coils working this way:  they are excited during ignition creating a pressure increase. It is my feeling that in the 2011 or 2012 tesla tech interview that it is mentioned that a piston smaller than 2" can't be used. This is probably due to the strength of a magnetic field on a cylinder. I have some testing to do on that yet. So essentially the coils will create a smaller cylinder bore for the plasma passage upon plasma discharge.  When the piston hits BDC the EM are off and you would therefore get rapid expansion and create vacuum and it seems recluster the noble gases.
This also would explain the coolness of the cylinders as it is slightly a refrigeration effect.
Regarding the 2" piston thing.  I could be true, but consider the source.  No one since Papp has duplicated the process, so we should not unquestionably believe any of them.  Papp did not fully understand his process, and what he did understand about it was written to be intentionally misleading.  So one possible, and likely unpopular path to take is to forget what you know, or think you know, and rethink what could actually be happening based on the small amount of actual facts about the engine.

You say you have some testing to do.  That is absolutely what is needed - full speed ahead.  I have test to do as well, I'll be starting with a 1/2" ID test tube.  It may fail miserably, but I won't know until I try.:)

kcd

PS Way out on the edge here, but there may not even be a plasma formation - tar and feather me, but that what I currently think.:D
If we are free to deliberate, then all underbuild suggestions are welcome. And maybe also some less underbuild. In that category i don't believe that the coils have an effect of keeping gas from the cylinder wall. The pressure of the expansion is way bigger then the force from the coils.

Plus the b-lines are parallel to the cylinder, either up or down. The movement of the gas particles is way more upside down then inside out, so alongside the b-lines or 180 degrees opposed. So no b F-force at 90 degrees angle.

Next thing, using x-rays. This route can make it impossible for us to get to a mainstream household item that will ever be sealed for approval.  

Concluding that our first step should now be to make* the clustered mix. To duplicate the J rohner fenomena or to use another method from known science.

If we have the mix we can see if we still need and also how much amount of radioactivity.

Seems logic to me.

Also when having more then one coil, we can use one to mimic the frequency of useful x-rays. As x-rays and em-rays are somewhat in the same ballpark, it will only be a matter of knowing the right frequency and adjusting the energy input on the coils to that frequency.

Then the mix is pre exited enough for a small spark to start the chain reaction.

And that is where we need to go/be eventually, so why not work towards it then. Think less input.


* It should be an easy experiment, for Russ to popp a gasmixture with a coil around the cylinder. Put a small resistor (or led) between the two wire-ends of the coil. Start popping and check the temperature on the coil. After a couple of minutes, check the volume of the gas, it should decrease.

If this happens, we can make the special mix this way.



~Russ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1421, on January 15th, 2013, 11:02 PM »
Quote from Axil on January 15th, 2013, 08:43 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on January 15th, 2013, 02:10 AM
Quote from Axil on January 15th, 2013, 12:24 AM
Here are some detailed experimental results involving the explosion of Xenon.




At 97nm with power density of 10exp14 W/cm2 charge states up to Xe8+ with kinetic energies up to 2.5keV are visible.

10exp14 W/cm2 is a lot of power.

How hot is 2.5 KeV

1 eV = 11604.505 Kelvin.

Xenon Cluster fragments were hot after explosion at

(2.500) (11604.505 ) =  29,011,262.5 degrees

A cluster with 1500 atoms will produce (2.5 KeV)(1500) = 3750 KeV.

By comparison a uranium atom produces 200 eV when it fissions.
ok, so... with this in mined. how much force would a "cluster" ( i know there are different sizes of clusters, lets just go with what ever we have info on...)  produce when it explodes?
good works Axil

~Russ
this will give us some more clues.
The power that you can get out of the noble gas clusters is exponentially proportional to the intensity of the x-rays that you can produce.

For example, if you can take a look at slide 6 (Kinetic energy of the ejected ions) and the associated graph on the left (ion charge state).

The bullet (Quadratic dependence on charge), it tells us that the more ionization you can produce in the cluster, the higher that the kinetic energy of the exploding ions will have. This energy goes up exponentially with the ionization level.

With xenon, the ionization level can go up to +40. You can only imagine how powerful those exploding xenon ions can become.

With helium, there are only 2 electrons, so what we see now in your current experiments are ionization energy levels that are very small.

I will address the options involving high intensity x-ray production in upcoming posts.

At the end of the day, there are two important parameters that define the level of power that can be produced in the Papp reaction, cluster size and x-ray intensity.

PS - As a preview of upcoming posts, you can produce high levels of nuclear radiation and gamma rays just from the spark discharge if that discharge is powerful enough.
thanks Axil, yes. the HV i'm using now is quite powerful... the type of discharge really creates some nasty stuff...  but i think i'm no where near the needed voltage to get xrays. im below the 100,000 or so volts to get them...

~Russ

~Russ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1422, on January 15th, 2013, 11:06 PM »
Quote from Jeff Nading on January 15th, 2013, 09:45 AM
Quote from Axil on January 15th, 2013, 09:34 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on January 15th, 2013, 08:57 AM
:idea: Would 1 mm graphite coating or film around and on the outside of the cylinder be enough to protect one from these types of radiation? You can buy graphite flexible sheets different thicknesses, widths and lengths.
Lead or tungsten is used to shield against high energy EMF (gamma-rays).

Graphite moderates neutrons but does not shield them.
Ok, you can buy lead sheets as well and is easily shaped to the cylinder and will hold it's shape.:D example here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LEAD-SHEET-300mm-x-100mm-x-1-8mm-code-4-thickness-/360561793714?pt=UK_BOI_Ceilings_Walls_Roofing_ET&hash=item53f3285ab2
in one of the patents papp talks about using graphite powder he used in the mix to form his coils...

~Russ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1423, on January 15th, 2013, 11:28 PM »
Quote from k c dias on January 15th, 2013, 12:19 PM
Quote from Axil on January 15th, 2013, 12:08 PM
As far as I know right now, there are three ways to produce X-rays: High voltage spark discharge, Plasmoids, and Laser stimulation.
Papp mighta done it ol'school - he was a real fan of Phosphorus.  But did he use P-32??
From: http://www.uic.edu/depts/envh/RSS/DataSheets/P32.html
Quote
P-32 emits high energy beta particles that generate bremsstrahlung x rays when striking other materials.  Bremsstrahlung production is greatest in high atomic numbered substances such as lead, and lowest in low atomic numbered substances such as plastic.  Acrylic beta shields and storage containers are commonly available from many vendors.  Even in low atomic numbered substances, bremsstrahlung x rays can be generated in high enough abundance to create a radiation hazard.  These x rays can be detected by performing a radiation survey with a thin end-window geiger counter.  Concentrated solutions should be stored in glass or plastic vials sufficiently thick to absorb the beta particles, within a lead container that is a few millimeters thick to attenuate the bremsstrahlung x rays.
Shield P-32 with an aluminum bucket and out squirts x-rays.
Quote from Jeff Nading on January 15th, 2013, 12:18 PM
Yes, test then post results, that's all we can do.:cool::D:P
I know! I know! I gotta get off my ***** in front of the computer and go test!  :D:P:);)
hummm..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorus-32
Quote
Phosphorus has a short half-life of 14.29 days and decays into sulfur-32
?

~Russ

Axil

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1424, on January 16th, 2013, 12:03 AM »
The quotes are from the last Papp patent.
Quote
Distributor 99 has two wipers 99A and 99B and supplies three pulses to each cylinder per cycle.
More pulses are desirable and therefore a better distributor arrangement (shown in FIG. 14) may be used.
Papp fired the spark multiple times as the piston traveled down the cylinder.

It’s all a matter of timing. The explosions of the noble gas mix in not like the ignition of gasoline. Just one shot and it’s over. Each ion explosion of the noble gas should be over in no more than a nanosecond.

The first burst of ions hits right on top of the piston surface in that nanosecond and the piston starts to move.
Quote
When the piston is in this upper position, the electrodes extend somewhat into the semitoroidal depression in the piston's upper surface and the chamber is generally toroidal in shape.
The next ion explosion happens when the piston is an inch or so down the cylinder.

The third ion explosion is timed when the piston is near the end of its stroke.

The input energy supplied to the spark discharge must be broken up into multiple bursts.

The latter bursts which are executed after the first grow progressively weaker because they increasingly became defocused. Each subsequent pop generates more ions that hit the cylinder walls.

A better way to do this is to generate x-rays by using a narrow electron beam that is focused perpendicular to the surface of the piston and pointed at the center of the piston head.

This should push all the x-rays and ions toward the surface of the piston with few if any directed toward the cylinder walls.

With a focused electron beam, few x-rays would hit the walls.

You can’t do this electron focusing with High Voltage Spark Discharge hitting an anode.

Papp hoped to do this by directing the electrons from two anodes toward the axis of the cylinder. If Papp’s timing was off by a picosecond on the latter pops, the electrons and x-rays would meet randomly off axis and the cylinder wall would be bathed with bad things.

However, you can focus electrons using a spark discharge using a focused plasmoid.

This specal plasmoid produces an arrow straight electron beam that is no more than 1 millimeter in diameter.