Quote from simonderricutt on January 17th, 2013, 12:29 AM

Quote from FaradayEZ on January 16th, 2013, 05:49 PM

Is your second line fact or opinion?

Quote

He used those coils to focus and constrain the energy produced by these multiple sequential plasma discharges onto the head of the piston.

I can't see that happening. When current runs through a coil, either the top or the bottom act like a north and south side of a magnet. Inside the coil the b-lines are parallel, depending on the current either going up or down.
If an electron moves inside from bottom to top, its current vector can be pointed downwards. So inside we have current and b-lines running along or in 180 degree opposite. A magnetic F force is only found when current and b-lines are at a 90 degree angle. That's from the stuff i had in highschool.

If we look at the diameter of the cylinder and a electron goes from center to outer rim. The force on it will be either to the left or to the right, giving a twirling motion. Not a motion to the center.

As i understand it, you need rotating b-lines to get a magnet force to the center or going outwards, depending on the directions of current and b-lines, and by using the cork screw rule.

EZ - have a look at the magnetron design. The idea there is that electrons from the filament are accelerated electrostatically towards the anode, but the magnetic field makes them go in a helix rather than a straight line. This "electron tornado" blowing across the resonant cavities gives you the microwaves. In the same way, a magnetic field in the Papp cylinder will put a twist on the path of any off-axis charged particles, and thus there will be some reduction in the amount of them hitting the walls.

That's a good thought.

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on January 17th, 2013, 01:46 AM

Quote from simonderricutt on January 17th, 2013, 12:29 AM

Quote from FaradayEZ on January 16th, 2013, 05:49 PM

Is your second line fact or opinion?

Quote

He used those coils to focus and constrain the energy produced by these multiple sequential plasma discharges onto the head of the piston.

I can't see that happening. When current runs through a coil, either the top or the bottom act like a north and south side of a magnet. Inside the coil the b-lines are parallel, depending on the current either going up or down.
If an electron moves inside from bottom to top, its current vector can be pointed downwards. So inside we have current and b-lines running along or in 180 degree opposite. A magnetic F force is only found when current and b-lines are at a 90 degree angle. That's from the stuff i had in highschool.

If we look at the diameter of the cylinder and a electron goes from center to outer rim. The force on it will be either to the left or to the right, giving a twirling motion. Not a motion to the center.

As i understand it, you need rotating b-lines to get a magnet force to the center or going outwards, depending on the directions of current and b-lines, and by using the cork screw rule.

EZ - have a look at the magnetron design. The idea there is that electrons from the filament are accelerated electrostatically towards the anode, but the magnetic field makes them go in a helix rather than a straight line. This "electron tornado" blowing across the resonant cavities gives you the microwaves. In the same way, a magnetic field in the Papp cylinder will put a twist on the path of any off-axis charged particles, and thus there will be some reduction in the amount of them hitting the walls.

That's a good thought.

Yes, and i agreed earlier on that. For the small length of diameter, the electrons will swirl a bit with a normal coil around the cylinder. Also the cylinder has to freely let through the magnetic b-lines. And i think that conducting materials are not good ones to let that through. In conducting materials the free electrons will react on the b-field.

To get them to go to the center, one needs to wrap the coil like a donut, so that the electric wires near the cylinder run parallel with the cylinder wall.

Compare it with the two parallel wire experiment. Where they are pushed to each other or repel each other. And see an electron as a traveling current the opposite way of the electron. Then turn the current arrow of the electron towards the b-field arrow of the coil b-field (rotating like a screw in the direction of the current in the coil) to see which way the force from the coil on the electron will be.
If done right the electrons are pushed to the center and on the other side of the center, the b-field lines also work it towards the center.

Only thing about this all is, that Papp never wired his coils this way. His normal wiring gives a weak toroidal movement.

Why weak? Because it uses the small distance of the diameter, the turning motion will lengthen the way of the electron, but not decrease or increase its speed. While when using the right donut coil, one uses the long vertical motion of the electron plus the compression motion is better directed. Instead of turning the electron flow, it is compressing the flow to the center.

Bob indicated that Papp may have studied more than just the one book by Ernest Rutherford that he previously posted.  So I looked up what other publications that may be available... Well folks, we have some reading to do :P

Source :http://www.rutherford.org.nz

Rutherford's Publications

Books by Rutherford

Radioactivity
   CUP 1904, 2nd Edition 1905, (pp580).
   Ern dedicated this book to "JJ Thomson. A tribute of my respect and admiration."

Radioactive Transformations
   Charles Scribner's Sons, NY 1906 (pp287) $3.50
   (Silliman Memorial Lectures, Yale University, March 1905.

Radiations from Radioactive Substances (with Chadwick and Ellis)
   CUP (UK) and Macmillan (USA), 1930, (pp588).

Publications by Rutherford

Work done in New Zealand 1893-1894

1894
Magnetization of Iron by High Frequency Discharges (Note, this is Rutherford's second research work, of 1894.)
   Trans NZ Inst xxvii 481-513 1894

1895
Magnetic Viscosity (Note, this is Rutherford's first research work of 1893.)
   Trans NZ Inst xxviii 182-204 1895

Work done at Cambridge 1895-1898

1896
A Magnetic Detector of Electric Waves and Some of its Applications
   Phil Trans Royal Society A189 1-24 1896

On the Passage of Electricity through Gases Exposed to Rontgen Rays (With JJ Thomson)
   Phil Mag ser 5 xlii 392-407 1896

1897
On the Electrification of Gases exposed to Rontgen Rays, and the Absorption of Rontgen Radiation by Gases and Vapours
   Phil Mag ser 5 xliii 241-255 1897

The Velocity and Rate of Recombination of the Ions of Gases exposed to Rontgen Radiation
   Phil Mag ser 5 xliv 422-440 1897

1898
The Discharge of Electrification by Ultra-violet Light
   Proc Cam Phil Soc ix 401-416 1898

Uranium Radiation and the Electrical Conduction Produced by It
   Phil Mag ser 5 xlvii 109-163 1899

Work Done at McGill 1898-1907

1899
Thorium and Uranium Radiation (With R B Owens)
   Trans Roy Soc Canada 2 9-12 1899

1900
A Radioactive Substance emitted from Thorium Compounds
   Phil Mag ser 5 xlix 1-14 1900

Radioactivity Produced in Substances by the Action of Thorium Compounds
   Phil Mag ser 5 xlix 161-192 1990

1901
Energy of Rontgen and Becquerel Rays, and the Energy required to produce an Ion in Gasses (With R K McClung)
   Phil Trans Roy Soc A196 25-59 1901

Einfluss der Temperatur auf die Emanationen radioaktiver Substanzen
   Physikalische Zeitschrift 2 429-31

The New Gas from Radium (With H T Brooks)
   Trans Roy Soc of Canada sec iii ser ii vol 7 21-25 1901

Emanations from Radio-active Substances
   Nature 64 157-8 1901

Dependence of the Current through Conducting Gases on the Direction of the Electric Field
   Phil Mag ser 6 ii 210-228 1901

Transmission of Excited Radioactivity
   Bul Amer Phys Soc II 37-43 1901

Discharge of Electricity from Glowing Platinum
   Trans Roy Soc of Canada 727-33 1901

Discharge of Electricity from Glowing Platinum and the Velocity of the Ions
   Phys Rev 13 no.6 321-344 1901

1902
Ubertragung erregter Radioaktivitat
   Physikalische Zeitschrift 3 210-14 1902

Erregte Radioaktivitat und in der Atmosphare hervorgerufene Ionisation (With S I Allen)
   Physikalische Zeitschrift 3 225-30 1902

Versuche uber erregte Radioaktivitat
   Physikalische Zeitschrift 3 254-7 1902

The Radioactivity of Thorium Compounds I (With F Soddy)
   Trans Chem Soc 81 321-350 1902

The Existence of Bodies Smaller than Atoms
   Trans Roy Soc of Canada 8 79-86 1902

Penetrating Rays from Radio-active Substances
   Nature 66 318-9 1902

Comparison of the Radiations from Radioactive Substances (With H T Brooks)
   Phil Mag ser 6 iv 1-23 1902

The Radioactivity of Thorium Compounds II (With F Soddy)
   Trans of Chem Soc 81 837-860 1902

Deviable Rays of Radioactive Substances (With A Grier)
   Phil Mag ser 6, iv 315-330 1902

The Cause and Nature of Radioactivity I (With F Soddy)
   Phil Mag ser 6, iv 370-396 1902

The Cause and Nature of Radioactivity II (With F Soddy)
   Phil Mag ser 6, iv 569-585 1902

Excited Radioactivity and Ionization of the Atmosphere (With S J Allen)
   Phil Mag ser 6, iv 704-723 1902

Note on the condensation points of thorium and radium emanations (With F Soddy)
   Proc Chem Soc 219-20 1902

1903
Excited Radioactivity and the Method of its Transmission
   Phil Mag ser 6, v 95-117 1903

The Magnetic and Electric Deviation of the Easily Absorbed Rays from Radium
   Phil Mag ser 6, v 177-187 1903

A Penetrating Radiation from the Earth's Surface (With H L Cooke)
   Phys Rev 16 183 1903

Radio-activity of Ordinary Materials
   Nature 67 511-2 1903

The Radioactivity of Uranium (With F Soddy)
   Phil Mag ser 6, v 441-445 1903

A Comparative Study of the Radioactivity of Radium and Thorium (With F Soddy)
   Phil Mag ser 6, v 445-457 1903

Some Remarks on Radioactivity
   Phil Mag ser 6, v 481-5 1903

Condensation of the Radioactive Emanations (With F Soddy)
   Phil Mag ser 6, v 561-76 1903

Radioactive Change (With F Soddy)
   Phil Mag ser 6, v 576-91 1903

The Amount of Emanation and Helium from Radium
   Nature 68 366-7 1903

Heating Effect of the Radium Emanation (With H T Barnes)
   Nature 68 622 1903

Heating Effect of the Radium Emanation (With H T Barnes)
   Nature 69 126 1903

Radioactive Processes
   Proc Phys Soc 18 595-7 1903

1904
Does the Radio-activity of Radium depend upon its Concentration?
   Nature 69 222 1904

Heating Effect of the Radium-emanation
   Trans of Aus Assoc for Adv of Sci 87-91 1904

Heating Effect of the Radium Emanation (With TH T Barnes)
   Phil Mag ser6, vii 202-219 1904

Nature of the Gamma Rays from Radium
   Nature 69 436-7 1904

The Radiation and Emanation of Radium Part 1
   Technics 11-16 1904

The Radiation and Emanation of Radium Part II
   Technics 171-5 1904

Slow Transformation Products of Radium
   Phil Mag ser 6, viii 636-650 1904

The Succession of Changes in Radioactive Bodies
   Phil Trans of the Roy Soc ser A, vol 204 169-219

The Heating Effect of the Gamma Rays from Radium (With H T Barnes)
   Nature 71 151-2 1904

Der Unterschied zwischen radioaktiver und chemischer Verwandlung
   Jahrbuch der Radioaktivitat und Electronik 1-25 1904

1905
Les Problemes Actuels de la Radioactivite (Int Cong at St Louis Sep 1904)
   Archives des Sciences physiques et naturelles xix 1905
   The Popular Science MonthlyMay 1905 (Shortened English version with new results.)

Radium - the Cause of the Earth's Heat
   Harpers Mag 390-6 1905

Slow Transformation Products of Radium
   Nature 71 341-2 1905

Charge carried by the Alpha Rays from Radium
   Nature 71 413-4 1905

Heating Effect of the Gamma Rays from Radium (With H T Barnes)
   Phil Mag ser 6, ix 621-628 1905

Note on the Radioactivity of Weak Radium Solutions
   Phil Mag ser 6, ix 711-12 1905

The Relative Proportion of Radium and Uranium in Radio-active Minerals (With B B Boltwood)
   Amer J Sci vol 20 55-56 1905

Some Properties of the Alpha Rays from Radium
   Trans Roy Soc of Canada 1113-16 1905

Some Properties of the Alpha Rays from Radium
   Phil Mag ser 6, xi 163-176 1905

Charge Carried by the Alpha and Beta Rays of Radium
   Phil Mag ser 6, x 193-208 1905

Slow Transformation Products of Radium
   Phil Mag ser 6, x 290-306 1905

1906
Magnetic and Electric Deflection of the Alpha Rays from Radium
   Phys Rev 22 122-3 1906

The Retardation of the Velocity of the Alpha Particles in Passing Through Matter
   Phil Mag ser 6, xi 553-4 1906

The Relative Proportion of Radium and Uranium in Radio-active Minerals (With B B Boltwood)
   Amer J of Sci vol 22 1-3 1906

Retardation of the Alpha Particle from Radium in passing through Matter
   Phil Mag ser 6, xii 134-146 1906

Distribution of the Intensity of the Radiation from Radioactive Sources
   Phil Mag ser 6, vol xii 152-158 1906

The Recent Radium Controversy
   Nature 74 634-5 1906

The Mass and Velocity of the Alpha Particles Expelled from Radium and Actinium
   Phil Mag ser 6, xii 348-71 1906

Mass of the Alpha Particles from Thorium (With Otto Hahn)
   Phil Mag ser 6, xii 371-378 1906

1907
Production of Radium from Actinium
   Nature 75 270-1 1907

The Velocity and Energy of the Alpha Particles from Radioactive Substances
   Phil Mag ser 6, xiii 110-117 1907

Some Cosmical Aspects of Radioactivity
   J of Roy Astr Soc of Canada 145-165 1907

Work done at Manchester 1907-1919

The Origin of Radium
   Nature 76 126 1907

The Effect of High Temperature on the Activity of the Products of Radium (with J E Petavel)
   Abstract of the British Association Report 456-7 1907

Origin of Radium
   Nature 76 661 1907

The Production and Origin of Radium
   Proceedings of the Manchester Literary and Philosphical Society Oct 29 1907

The Production and Origin of Radium
   Phil Mag ser 6, XIV 733-49 1907

1908
A Method of Counting the Number of Alpha Particles from Radioactive Matter (With H Geiger)
   Memoirs of the Manchester Literary and Philosphical Soc vol lii, No 9 1-3 1908

Recent Advances in Radioactivity (RI Talk 31 Jan 1908)
   Nature 77 422-6 1908

Experiments with the Radium Emanation. I, The Volume of the Emanation
   Phil Mag ser 6 XVI 300-12 1908

Spectrum of the Radium Emanation (With T Royds)
   Nature 78 220-1 1908

Spectrum of the Radium Emanation
   Phil Mag ser 6, XVI 313-17 1908

An Electrical Method of Counting the Number of Alpha Particles from Radioactive Substances (With H Geiger)
   Proc Roy Soc A81 141-61 1908

The Charge and Nature of the Alpha Particle (With H Geiger)
   Proc Roy Soc A81 162-73 1908

The Nature and Charge of the Alpha Particles from Radioactive Substances
   Nature 79 12-15 1908

The Action of the Radium Emanation upon Water (With T Royds)
   Phil Mag ser 6, vxi, 812-8 1908

The Nature of the Alpha Particle (With T Royds)
   Memoirs of the Manchester Literary and Phil Soc IV, vol liii, No 1 1-3 1908

Some Properties of the Radium Emanation
   Memoirs of the Manchester Literary and Phil Soc IV, vol liii, No 2 1-2 1908

The Chemical Nature of the Alpha Particles from Radiactive Substances
   Nobel Lecture Dec 11 1908

The Discharge of Electricity from Glowing Bodies
   The Electrician Dec 11 343-4 1908

Der Ursrung des Radiums (Bericht)
   Jahrbach der Radioaktivitat & Elekronik V Band Heft 2153-166 1908

1909
The Boiling Point of the Radium Emanation
   Nature 79 457-8 1909

The Nature of the Alpha Particle from Radioactive Substances (With T Royds)
   Phil Mag ser 6, xvii 281-6 1909

Differences in the Decay of the Radium Emanation (With Y Tuomikoski)
   Memoirs of the Manchester Literary and Philosphical Soc IV, vol liii, No 12 1-2 1909

Condensation of the Radium Emanation
   Phil Mag ser 6, xvii 723-9 1909

The Action of the Alpha Rays on Glass
   Memoirs of the Manchester Literary and Philosphical Soc IV, vol liv, No 5 1 1909

Production of Helium by Radium (With B B Boltwood)
   Memoirs of the Manchester Literary and Philosphical Soc IV, vol liv, No 6 1-2 1909

1910
Actions of the Alpha Rays on Glass
   Phil Mag ser 6, xix 192-4 1910

Properties of Polonium
   Nature 82 491-2 1910

Theory of the Luminosity produced in certain Substances by Alpha Rays
   Proceedings of the Roy Soc ser A, lxxxiii 561-72 1910

Radium Standards and Nomenclature
   Nature 84 430-1 1910

The Number of Alpha Particles emitted by Uranium and Thorium (With H Geiger)
   Phil Mag ser 6, xx 691-8 1910

The Probability Variations in the Distribution of Alpha Particles (With H Geiger)
   Phil Mag ser 6, xx 698-707 1910

1911
The Scattering of the Alpha and Beta Rays and the Structure of the Atom
   Proceedings of the Manchester Literary and Philosphical Soc IV, 55 18-20 1911

Untersuchungen uber die Radiumemantion II Die Umwandlungsgeschwindigkeit)
   Akademie der Wissenschaften in Wien CXX 303-12 1911

Die Erzeugung von Helium durch Radium (With B B Boltwood)
   Akademie der Wissenschaften in Wien CXX 313-36 1911

The Scattering of Alpha and Beta Particles by Matter and the Structure of the Atom
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxi 669-88 1911

Transformation and Nomenclature of the Radioactive Emanations
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxii 621-9 1911

The Transformation of Radium
   J. Soc of Chem Ind No 11, xxx 3-14 1911

1912
A Balance Method for Comparison of Quantities of Radium and Some of its Applications (With J Chadwick)
   Proc Phys Soc xxiv 141-51 1912

The Origin of Beta and Gamma Rays from Radioactive Substances
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxiv 453-62 1912

Photographic Registration of Alpha Particles (With H Geiger)
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxiv 618-23 1912

On the Energy of the Group of Beta Rays from Radium
   Phil Mag ser 6 xxiv 893-4 1912

Warmeentwicklung durch Radium and Radiumemanation (With H Robinson)
   Akademie der Wissenschaften in WienCXX1 1491-1516 1912

1913
Heating Effect of Radium and its Emanation (With H Robinson)
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxv 312-30 1913

A New International Physical Institute
   Nature 90 545-6 1913

The Age of Pleochroic Haloes (With J Joly)
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxv 644-57 1913

The Analysis of the Gamma Rays from Radium B and Radium C (With H Richardson)
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxv 722-34 1913

The Analysis of the Gamma Rays from Radium D and Radium E (With H Richardson)
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxvi 324-32 1913

The Reflection of Gamma Rays from Crystals (With E Andrade)
   Nature 92 267 1913

Scattering of Alpha Particles by Gases (With M J Nuttall)
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxvi 702-12 1913

The Analysis of the Beta Rays from Radium B and Radium C (With H Robinson)
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxvi 717-29 1913

Uber die Masse und die Geschwindigkeiten der von den radioaktiven Substanzen ausgesendeten Alpha Teilchen (With H Robinson)
   Akademie der Wissenschaften in WienCXXII 1855-84 1913

The British Radium Standard
   Nature 92 402-3 1913

The Structure of the Atom
   Nature 92 423 1913

Analysis of the Gamma Rays of the Thorium and Actinium Products (With H Richardson)
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxvi 937-48 1913

1914
The Structure of the Atom
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxvii 488-98 1914

The Wavelength of the Soft Gamma Rays from Radium B (With E Andrade)
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxvii 854-68 1914

The Structure of the Atom
   Scientia xvi 337-51 1914

The Spectrum of the Penetrating Gamma Rays from Radium B and Radium C (With E Andrade)
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxviii 263-73 1914

Spectrum of the Beta Rays excited by Gamma Rays (With W F Rawlinson)
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxviii 281-6 1914

The Structure of Atoms and Molecules
   Abstract of a discussion at the British Association Aug 18 1914

The Connexion between the Beta and Gamma Ray Spectra
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxviii 305-19 1914

Radium Constants on the International Standard
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxviii 320-7 1914

The Mass and Velocities of the Alpha Particles from Radioactive Substances (With H Robinson)
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxviii 552-572 1914

1915
Origin of the Spectra given by Beta and Gamma Rays of Radium
   Proceedings of the Manchester Literary and Phil Soc IV, vol lix 17-19 1915

Radiations from Exploding Atoms (RI talk 4 Jun 1915)
   Nature 95 494-8 1915

Maximum Frequency of the X Rays from a Coolidge Tube for Different Voltages (With J Barnes and H Richardson)
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxx 339-60 1915

Efficiency of Production of X Rays from a Coolidge Tube (With J Barnes)
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxx 361-7 1915

1916
Long-range Alpha Particles from Thorium (With A B Wood)
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxxi 379-86 1916

1917
Penetrating Power of the X Radiation from a Coolidge Tube
   Phil Mag ser6, xxxiv 153-62 1917

1919
Collision of Alpha Particles with Light Atoms I. Hydrogen
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxxvii 537-61 1919

Collision of Alpha Particles with Light Atoms II. Velocity of the Hydrogen Atoms
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxxvii 562-71 1919

Collision of Alpha Particles with Light Atoms III. Nitrogen and Oxygen Atoms
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxxvii 571-80 1919

Collision of Alpha Particles with Light Atoms IV. An Anomalous Effect in Nitrogen
   Phil Mag ser 6, xxxvii 581-87 1919

Work done at Cambridge 1919-1937

Radio-activity and Gravitation (with A H Compton)
   Nature 104 412 1919

1920
Nuclear Constitution of Atoms (Bakerian Lecture, 3 Jun 1920)
   Proc Roy Soc A97 374-400 1920

1921
On the Collision of Alpha Particles with Hydrogen Atoms
   Phil Mag ser 6, 41 307-8 1921

The Disintegration of Elements by Alpha Particles
   Nature 107 41 1921

The Mass of the Long-range Particles from Thorium C
   Phil Mag ser 6, 41 570-4 1921

The Artificial Disintegration of Light Elements (With J Chadwick)
   Phil Mag ser 6, 42 809-25 1921

1922
Disintegration of Elements
   Nature 109 418 1922

Identification of a Missing Element
   Nature 109 781 1922

The Disintegration of Elements by Alpha Particles (With J Chadwick)
   Phil Mag ser 6, 44 471-32 1922

1923
Capture and Loss of Electrons by Alpha Particles
   Proc Cambridge Phil Soc 21 504-10 1923

1924
The Capture and Loss of Electrons by Alpha Particles
   Phil Mag ser 6, 47 277-303 1924

The Bombardment of Elements by Alpha Particles
   Nature 113 457 1924

Further Experiments on the Artificial Disintegration of Elements (With J Chadwick)
   Proc Phys Soc 36 417-22 1924

On the Origin and Nature of Long-range Particles observed with sources of Radium C (With J Chadwick)
   Phil Mag ser 6, 48 509-26 1924

1925
Disintegration of Atomic Nuclei
   Nature 115 493-4 1925

The Natural X-ray Spectrum of Radium B (With W A Wooster)
   Proc of the Cambridge Phil Soc 22 834-7 1925

Scattering of Alpha Particles by Atomic Nuclei and the Law of Force (With J Chadwick)
   Phi Mag ser 6, 50 889-913 1925

1927
Atomic Nuclei and their Transformation (12th Guthrie Lecture, 25 Feb 1927)
   Proc Phys Soc 39 359-72 1927

Structure of the Radioactive Atom and the Origin of the Alpha Rays
   Phil Mag ser 7, 4 580-605 1927

The Scattering of Alpha Particles by Helium (With J Chadwick)
   Phil Mag ser 7, 4 605-20 1927

1929
Origin of Actinium and the Age of the Earth
   Nature 123 313-4 1929

Energy Relations in Artificial Disintegration (With J Chadwick)
   Proc Cambridge Phil Soc 25 186-92 1929

1930
A New Method of Analysis of Groups of Alpha-Raus (1) The Alpha-Rays from Radium C, Thorium C and Actinium (With C E Wynn-Williams)
   Proc Roy Soc A 129 211-34 1930

1931
Analysis of the Long Range Alpha Particles from Radium C (With F Ward and W B Lewis)
   Proc Roy Soc A 131 684-703 1931

The Origin of the Gamma-Rays (With C D Ellis)
   Proc Roy Soc A132 667-8 1931

Alpha Teilchen grosser Reichweite und die Entstehung der Gamma Strahlen
   Nachrichten v d Gesellschaft der Wissenschafeten zu Gottingen II 19 248-51 1931

Analysis of the Alpha Particles Emitted from Thorium C and Actinium C (With C E Wynn-Williams and W B Lewis)
   Proc Roy Soc A 133 351-66 1931

1932
The Gamma Rays from Actinium Emanation and their Origin (With B V Bowden)
   Proc Roy Soc A 136 407-12 1932

1933
Analysis of Alpha Rays by an Annular Magnetic Field (With C E Wynn-Williams, W B Lewis and B V Bowden)
   Proc Roy Soc A 139 617-37 1933

Experiments on the Transmutation of Elements by Protons (With M Oliphant)
   Proc Roy Soc A 141 259-81 1933

The transmutation of Lithium by Protons and by Ions of Heavy Isotope of Hydrogen (With Oliphant and B Kinsey)
   Proc Roy Soc A 141 722-33 1933

Analysis of the Long Range Alpha Particles from Radium C' by the Magnetic Focussing Method (With W B Lewis and B V Bowden)
   Proc Roy Soc A 142 347-61 1933

1934
Bombardment of the Heavy Isotope of Hydrogen by Alpha Particles (With A E Kempton)
   Proc Roy Soc A 143 724-30 1934

Transmutation Effects observed with Heavy Hydrogen (With M Oliphant and P Harteck)
   Nature 133 413 1934

Transmutation Effects observed with Heavy Hydrogen (With M L E Oliphant and P Harteck)
   Proc Roy Soc A 144 692-703 1934

1935
The Accurate Determination of the Energy Released in Certain Nuclear Transformations (With M L E Oliphant and A E Kempton)
   Proc Roy Soc A 149 406-16 1935

Some Nuclear Transformations of Beryllium and Boron and the Masses of Light Elements (With M L E Oliphant and A E Kempton)
   Proc Roy Soc A 150 241-58 1935

1936
xxx
   J Chem Soc xxx 508-516 1936

1937
The Search for the Isotopes of Hydrogen and Helium of Mass 3
   Nature 140 303-5 1937


There goes the weekend...

kcd

I suspect that the use of radioactive isotopes is a blind alley. An energy device that uses radiation provided by material that could be used in a dirty bomb is a non-starter.

The old Papp design is not viable in this new day and age; we should spend our valuable time designing a new Papp engine in a more benign and less threating way.

Quote from Axil on January 17th, 2013, 03:55 PM

I suspect that the use of radioactive isotopes is a blind alley. An energy device that uses radiation provided by material that could be used in a dirty bomb is a non-starter.

The old Papp design is not viable in this new day and age; we should spend our valuable time designing a new Papp engine in a more benign and less threating way.

Agreed.  I'm thinking LENR.  Something that will fuse with hydrogen to create a different element, like:
Aluminum + Hydrogen --> Silicon    or
Nickel + Hydrogen --> Copper

Quote from Slickhanz on January 17th, 2013, 12:08 AM

So if you have a gap, dependent upon the magnetic permeability of the cylinder wall material, that should determine how far into the cylinder the magnet can protrude.  Obviously also current and windings will be a factor.  But as far as whats in the middle of that coil with a stainless steel cylinder wall is going to be different than what permeates through an aluminum or steel cylinder wall.  Will this not affect the overall strength of the internal field?  I don't understand enough about magnets, but have a general idea of how they work.  I am just uncertain about how this field would be affected internally and with such a brief energization.  Probably a good reason this is a slow response, lower RPM engine/motor.

attached is a picture of an ion thruster, not sure of its validity, as it came from wikipedia.  Bonjour

Tim

With a coil wound around a cylinder the flux lines are concentrated internally to the coil then bend back out at the top to travel outside the coil back to the other pole.  If a magnetic material is used for the cylinder (or core) it acts like a guide to concentrate the flux so the flux won't penetrate it .  If the material is non magnetic, flux will penetrate the material.  However, if an ac current is applied to the coil, it can generate a current in the non magnetic metal (AL for example) that will produce an opposing field which reduce the field that can penetrate the metal.  The AC field can heat the metal from eddy currents.  On LF transformers, laminations are used and insulated from each other to reduce eddy current.

A possible solution to the coil issue is to imbed an integrated coil within the wall of a piston comprised of a nonconductive dielectric material positioned concentric with the cylinder. The piston has an open end in which the spark is discharged and the opposite end of the piston is closed. This closed end receives and contains the force of the ion explosion.

This forms a concentric cylinder design concept in which the piston oscillates inside the cylinder.
 
The closed end of the piston supports the piston rod.
 
In an ion explosion, I assume that the ions carry most of the force of the ion explosion because they are 1800 or more times the mass of the electrons.

When ions explode inside the piston, the coil imbedded in the piston will force the ions away from the inside face of the piston wall using a pinch effect which constrains the plasma from the inside wall of the piston.
 
The inside face of the piston would be made of a rugged and robust material like stainless steel.
 
This telescoping concentric cylinder design will place the magnetic field lines produced by the coil very close to the plasma where this intense magnetic field could exert maximum effect together with protecting the sidewall of the piston from the plasma using a strong pinch effect. The coil will also accelerate the ions toward the stainless steel inner face of the piston.
 
Additional advantage can be gained by also mounting the electrodes inside the piston. In this configuration, the force carried by the electrons would not be wasted. These electrons could exert force when they exit the open face end of the piston to provide a rocket propulsion effect. The coil would vigorously accelerate the electrons out the open end of the piston because of the magnetic pinch effect.
 
Also with a piston mounted electrode configuration, the wiring inside the piston could allow the coil and electrodes to be powered by the same pulsed current.

In this plasmoid oriented configuration, the magnetic power exerted by the coil would be intense and timed with perfect synchronization with the firing of the electrodes.
 
The coil would operate only when the plasmoid was energized. In effect, the piston would act like a rocket with a plasmoid shooting out its exhaust end.
 
The electrical connections to power the piston would be in contact when the piston at top dead center of the firing cycle and disconnect when the piston moves upward. The piston would reconnect with the integrated spark and coil power feed when it returns to its initial firing position. An electric brush design might provide this electrical feed connection.
 
This design would be so sufficiently different from all other Papp designs that it might be patentable.
 
However, it would take both an expert and open-minded builder to pull this design off.
 

Just thinking outside the Papp box.

Thoughts…

Quote from Dog-One on January 17th, 2013, 05:11 PM

Quote from Axil on January 17th, 2013, 03:55 PM

I suspect that the use of radioactive isotopes is a blind alley. An energy device that uses radiation provided by material that could be used in a dirty bomb is a non-starter.

The old Papp design is not viable in this new day and age; we should spend our valuable time designing a new Papp engine in a more benign and less threating way.

Agreed.  I'm thinking LENR.  Something that will fuse with hydrogen to create a different element, like:
Aluminum + Hydrogen --> Silicon    or
Nickel + Hydrogen --> Copper

I'm all for that, and new elements. :D

Quote from Axil on January 17th, 2013, 03:55 PM

I suspect that the use of radioactive isotopes is a blind alley. An energy device that uses radiation provided by material that could be used in a dirty bomb is a non-starter.

The old Papp design is not viable in this new day and age; we should spend our valuable time designing a new Papp engine in a more benign and less threating way.

That's why i opted for electro magnetics. Just a question of using the right frequencies and using it in the right force direction, like the compression with a donut coil.

And if we believe that John had a strange fenomena with his shortcutted coil, then we know it is possible with only electro magnetisme. He had no radioactivity, he had his coils and maybe RF also on at the time of the strange fenomena.

And i see the strange fenomena he had as his mix clustering to a small volume by his coil shortcircuiting.

Quote from Babble on January 17th, 2013, 06:19 PM

Quote from Slickhanz on January 17th, 2013, 12:08 AM

So if you have a gap, dependent upon the magnetic permeability of the cylinder wall material, that should determine how far into the cylinder the magnet can protrude.  Obviously also current and windings will be a factor.  But as far as whats in the middle of that coil with a stainless steel cylinder wall is going to be different than what permeates through an aluminum or steel cylinder wall.  Will this not affect the overall strength of the internal field?  I don't understand enough about magnets, but have a general idea of how they work.  I am just uncertain about how this field would be affected internally and with such a brief energization.  Probably a good reason this is a slow response, lower RPM engine/motor.

attached is a picture of an ion thruster, not sure of its validity, as it came from wikipedia.  Bonjour

Tim

With a coil wound around a cylinder the flux lines are concentrated internally to the coil then bend back out at the top to travel outside the coil back to the other pole.  If a magnetic material is used for the cylinder (or core) it acts like a guide to concentrate the flux so the flux won't penetrate it .  If the material is non magnetic, flux will penetrate the material.  However, if an ac current is applied to the coil, it can generate a current in the non magnetic metal (AL for example) that will produce an opposing field which reduce the field that can penetrate the metal.  The AC field can heat the metal from eddy currents.  On LF transformers, laminations are used and insulated from each other to reduce eddy current.

You're right and aluminum is not what we need. Also the donutcoil needs inside itself a core. Why? To concentrate the opposite side of the b-lines that run internally in the coil. We don't want those inside the cylinder.

The second thing in effectiveness will be to put the right frequency of DC through the coil. A frequency that harmonates with the gasparticles.

Quote from Axil on January 17th, 2013, 07:40 PM

This design would be so sufficiently different from all other Papp designs that it might be patentable.
 
However, it would take both an expert and open-minded builder to pull this design off.

Just thinking outside the Papp box.

Thoughts…

Well, its at least a whole different setup and approach. I'm still thinking what kind of coil one needs for this in the piston, but the brush connection firing mechanically is also interesting in the way that it will act like a very strong relay switch. On the other hand i'm not sure how precise the timing of such spark can be. Cause we always see sparks having their own will when jumping gaps.

Quote

However, it would take both an expert and open-minded builder to pull this design off.

I think this is what Papp was doing in his first motors... all mechanical timing:

now we know this is Papps motor... but the man talking keep stating " mine " but it was not built by him...

so check 2:11 he talks about the cam for timing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKm09vJQdqQ

FYI

A new way to make x-rays. Who needs buckets.

A solid state micro Particle Accelerator

Quote

The hand-held scanners, or tricorders, of the Star Trek movies and television series are one step closer to reality now that a University of Missouri engineering team has invented a compact source of X-rays and other forms of radiation. The radiation source, which is the size of a stick of gum, could be used to create inexpensive and portable X-ray scanners for use by doctors, as well as to fight terrorism and aid exploration on this planet and others.
 
The device uses a crystal to produce more than 100,000 volts of electricity from only 10 volts of electrical input with low power consumption. Having such a low need for power could allow the crystal to be fueled by batteries. The crystal, made from a material called lithium niobate, uses the piezoelectric effect to amplify the input voltage. Piezoelectricity is the phenomenon whereby certain materials produce an electric charge when the material is under stress.

Investigation and Optimization of a High Voltage Piezoelectric Particle Accelerator

[attachment=3053]

Can anyone build this?

Quote from Axil on January 17th, 2013, 03:55 PM

I suspect that the use of radioactive isotopes is a blind alley. An energy device that uses radiation provided by material that could be used in a dirty bomb is a non-starter.

The old Papp design is not viable in this new day and age; we should spend our valuable time designing a new Papp engine in a more benign and less threating way.

I think it will yield close to the same, possibly better……possibly worse. My worry is the idea of the buckets. I imagine the buckets caused a good 80% failure of this engine. When an object is threaded onto another object in a high vibration environment, the tendency will be for it to come unthreaded. Between the force of the expansion, recoil of the motor and the emf and radiation transfers, this is a lot of forces that could loosen the buckets. And I think maybe they should be made of a harder material as well. If the trade off is threading a piece of soft aluminuim stuffed with slightly radioactive material for 20-30 HP. I think, unless that hp takes you into over unity, its not worth the possibility(high likelyhood) of that style of a bucket causing a catastrophic failure. Maybe if you made the buckets thread to the outside of the cylinder head or make it an insert into the head so that it could be flanged, i would feel safer for the life of the engine with this setup. But, ultimately I don't like the radioactive material idea.

Tim

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on January 18th, 2013, 12:11 AM

Quote

However, it would take both an expert and open-minded builder to pull this design off.

I think this is what Papp was doing in his first motors... all mechanical timing:

now we know this is Papps motor... but the man talking keep stating " mine " but it was not built by him...

so check 2:11 he talks about the cam for timing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKm09vJQdqQ

and an add on to this post:
Jimmy, SABORI's patent:

[attachment=3054]

there is a lot of different schematics and charts as to how the coils and things are timed... if its accurate... ?!?! we don't know...

Quote from Babble on January 17th, 2013, 06:19 PM

Quote from Slickhanz on January 17th, 2013, 12:08 AM

So if you have a gap, dependent upon the magnetic permeability of the cylinder wall material, that should determine how far into the cylinder the magnet can protrude.  Obviously also current and windings will be a factor.  But as far as whats in the middle of that coil with a stainless steel cylinder wall is going to be different than what permeates through an aluminum or steel cylinder wall.  Will this not affect the overall strength of the internal field?  I don't understand enough about magnets, but have a general idea of how they work.  I am just uncertain about how this field would be affected internally and with such a brief energization.  Probably a good reason this is a slow response, lower RPM engine/motor.

attached is a picture of an ion thruster, not sure of its validity, as it came from wikipedia.  Bonjour

Tim

With a coil wound around a cylinder the flux lines are concentrated internally to the coil then bend back out at the top to travel outside the coil back to the other pole.  If a magnetic material is used for the cylinder (or core) it acts like a guide to concentrate the flux so the flux won't penetrate it .  If the material is non magnetic, flux will penetrate the material.  However, if an ac current is applied to the coil, it can generate a current in the non magnetic metal (AL for example) that will produce an opposing field which reduce the field that can penetrate the metal.  The AC field can heat the metal from eddy currents.  On LF transformers, laminations are used and insulated from each other to reduce eddy current.

So laminated aluminum as a suspended core, would be optimal for heat build up and permeability of the suspended core?  Any idea of how to calculate this permiability or how far into the core the magnetism will reach?  Or do you calculate this by multiplying the b my the u permeability constant?  Any thoughts on frequency of AC and their effects upon magnetism?

Someone posted a link for magnetism info in which I need to paroose.

Thanks for the info

Tim

Quote from Axil on January 17th, 2013, 07:40 PM

A possible solution to the coil issue is to imbed an integrated coil within the wall of a piston comprised of a nonconductive dielectric material positioned concentric with the cylinder. The piston has an open end in which the spark is discharged and the opposite end of the piston is closed. This closed end receives and contains the force of the ion explosion.

This forms a concentric cylinder design concept in which the piston oscillates inside the cylinder.
 
The closed end of the piston supports the piston rod.
 
In an ion explosion, I assume that the ions carry most of the force of the ion explosion because they are 1800 or more times the mass of the electrons.

When ions explode inside the piston, the coil imbedded in the piston will force the ions away from the inside face of the piston wall using a pinch effect which constrains the plasma from the inside wall of the piston.
 
The inside face of the piston would be made of a rugged and robust material like stainless steel.
 
This telescoping concentric cylinder design will place the magnetic field lines produced by the coil very close to the plasma where this intense magnetic field could exert maximum effect together with protecting the sidewall of the piston from the plasma using a strong pinch effect. The coil will also accelerate the ions toward the stainless steel inner face of the piston.
 
Additional advantage can be gained by also mounting the electrodes inside the piston. In this configuration, the force carried by the electrons would not be wasted. These electrons could exert force when they exit the open face end of the piston to provide a rocket propulsion effect. The coil would vigorously accelerate the electrons out the open end of the piston because of the magnetic pinch effect.
 
Also with a piston mounted electrode configuration, the wiring inside the piston could allow the coil and electrodes to be powered by the same pulsed current.

In this plasmoid oriented configuration, the magnetic power exerted by the coil would be intense and timed with perfect synchronization with the firing of the electrodes.
 
The coil would operate only when the plasmoid was energized. In effect, the piston would act like a rocket with a plasmoid shooting out its exhaust end.
 
The electrical connections to power the piston would be in contact when the piston at top dead center of the firing cycle and disconnect when the piston moves upward. The piston would reconnect with the integrated spark and coil power feed when it returns to its initial firing position. An electric brush design might provide this electrical feed connection.
 
This design would be so sufficiently different from all other Papp designs that it might be patentable.
 
However, it would take both an expert and open-minded builder to pull this design off.
 

Just thinking outside the Papp box.

Thoughts…

Are you hacked into my computer?  Or my brain?  I have something similar that I was going to post last night, but didnt. It's not word for word, but I think we r on the same page. I think this could almost explain this in a thermodynamic way. But adding in the extra EMF aspects of the almost-plasma reaction.

Tim

hey guys, i think i just figured out something.

ok, so have a look at the Papp patents US4428193

in the patents you have this photo:

[attachment=3056]

and here is the cylinder head:

[attachment=3057]

ok, so for the longest time now i have been trying to figure out how a 40,000V spark was going to jump that gap...

its to big it would just jump to the cylinder head...

well check the first FIG 6 photo...

check #85

this is the center electrode... so that's how the spark jumps that  big gap...

but that's not all...

the cylinder is moving so this arc will fallow the lest resistance. and that is where the spark and the plasma is pulled down the cylinder and it may as well help form the "plasmoid"

there not i feel better... lol

thoughts?

~Russ

also from the patent:

Quote

The piston has a generally semitoroidal depression in its upper surface (see FIGS. 4, 5 and 11) and carries a conductive discharge point 85 of copper, brass or bronze generally along the axis of the chamber. When the piston is generally extended, the discharge point is a substantial distance from the electrodes. But when the piston is in its upper position (see FIG. 11), the discharge point is disposed generally intermediate all four electrodes and in close proximity thereto, there being gaps between said electrodes and the discharge point. When the piston is in this upper position, the electrodes extend somewhat into the semitoroidal depression in the piston's upper surface and the chamber is generally toroidal in shape.

so possibility create the HV arc and then after the piston is moving past the center eletrod the caps discharge? so the brass "button" dose not vaporize...

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on January 18th, 2013, 02:01 AM

hey guys, i think i just figured out something.


there not i feel better... lol

thoughts?

~Russ

so possibility create the HV arc and then after the piston is moving past the center eletrod the caps discharge? so the brass "button" dose not vaporize...

Russ - even better if you use the Thoriated Tungsten for that central pip on the piston. This has a lower work-function, and emits a few alphas and gammas to improve the ionisation where you want it to be. Sounds to me like a good way of getting the arc to go where you want it, and then stretching it as the piston goes up. The Thoriated Tungsten will last longer than Copper, too.

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on January 18th, 2013, 12:59 AM

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on January 18th, 2013, 12:11 AM

Quote

However, it would take both an expert and open-minded builder to pull this design off.

I think this is what Papp was doing in his first motors... all mechanical timing:

now we know this is Papps motor... but the man talking keep stating " mine " but it was not built by him...

so check 2:11 he talks about the cam for timing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKm09vJQdqQ

and an add on to this post:
Jimmy, SABORI's patent:


there is a lot of different schematics and charts as to how the coils and things are timed... if its accurate... ?!?! we don't know...

seems a little silly to me.
takes one gas mix, transfer via vacuum chamber plasmoid magnetic field coil.


2 cylinders. were is the energy coming from? you need a step up transformer also.
lets see what you been working on..

:idea::P:shy:



there is a lot of different schematics and charts as to how the coils and things are timed... if its accurate... ?!?! we don't know...[/quote]

Quote from freethisone on January 18th, 2013, 07:14 AM

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on January 18th, 2013, 12:59 AM

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on January 18th, 2013, 12:11 AM

Quote

However, it would take both an expert and open-minded builder to pull this design off.

I think this is what Papp was doing in his first motors... all mechanical timing:

now we know this is Papps motor... but the man talking keep stating " mine " but it was not built by him...

so check 2:11 he talks about the cam for timing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKm09vJQdqQ

and an add on to this post:
Jimmy, SABORI's patent:


there is a lot of different schematics and charts as to how the coils and things are timed... if its accurate... ?!?! we don't know...

seems a little silly to me.
takes one gas mix, transfer via vacuum chamber plasmoid magnetic field coil.


2 cylinders. were is the energy coming from? you need a step up transformer also.
lets see what you been working on..

:idea::P:shy:



there is a lot of different schematics and charts as to how the coils and things are timed... if its accurate... ?!?! we don't know...

[/quote]What I find unbelievable is his statement that he gets 1000 Volts at about 600 Amps from the cylinders. If this is true he is running a COP of around 50 (guess)

Quote from Axil on January 17th, 2013, 03:55 PM

I suspect that the use of radioactive isotopes is a blind alley. An energy device that uses radiation provided by material that could be used in a dirty bomb is a non-starter.

The old Papp design is not viable in this new day and age; we should spend our valuable time designing a new Papp engine in a more benign and less threating way.

I totally agree!!  I'm just trying to get inside Papp's head (figuratively speaking) :D

kcd

Quote

I think this is what Papp was doing in his first motors... all mechanical timing:

I think mechanical timing would be superior and more consistent in high EMF situation. For longevity concerns  not a fan of brushes. We had a machine that used a rotating drum that used a metal tab brush-like connection. Brushes would be easiest and more reliable in this application. Could just use an old DC motor armature and connect the winding to armature connections in blocks. The brush dust would at least be external to any other mechanical processes. So you need the bottom half of a DC brush motor. Bigger the brushes the better in this circumstance.









What I find unbelievable is his statement that he gets 1000 Volts at about 600 Amps from the cylinders. If this is true he is running a COP of around 50 (guess)

600a may be a stretch. I think he says later its 300a. Do we know how much EMF is released by a charge of the secret mix?  If the coils are able to absorb the back EMF it should put out significant power when the coil is not being driven IMHO, this is what's burning off. Should be able to read this with a DMM to test voltage, a known value resistor and ohms law.  if it was hooked up. After all, this is at the very least a 2nd usage of the buckets is absorbing EMF and directing it to the capacitor or battery to power the next cylinder. And it will do this very quickly as it has to be able to power the next cylinder. That's a lot of power in a very short amount of time passed from plasma to buckets.  So the back rush of the plasma burst being absorbed by 3 1000 turn coils presents the possibility of significant energy transfer output.

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on January 18th, 2013, 02:01 AM

hey guys, i think i just figured out something.

ok, so have a look at the Papp patents US4428193

in the patents you have this photo:



and here is the cylinder head:



ok, so for the longest time now i have been trying to figure out how a 40,000V spark was going to jump that gap...

its to big it would just jump to the cylinder head...

well check the first FIG 6 photo...

check #85

this is the center electrode... so that's how the spark jumps that  big gap...

but that's not all...

the cylinder is moving so this arc will fallow the lest resistance. and that is where the spark and the plasma is pulled down the cylinder and it may as well help form the "plasmoid"

there not i feel better... lol

thoughts?

~Russ

also from the patent:

Quote

The piston has a generally semitoroidal depression in its upper surface (see FIGS. 4, 5 and 11) and carries a conductive discharge point 85 of copper, brass or bronze generally along the axis of the chamber. When the piston is generally extended, the discharge point is a substantial distance from the electrodes. But when the piston is in its upper position (see FIG. 11), the discharge point is disposed generally intermediate all four electrodes and in close proximity thereto, there being gaps between said electrodes and the discharge point. When the piston is in this upper position, the electrodes extend somewhat into the semitoroidal depression in the piston's upper surface and the chamber is generally toroidal in shape.

so possibility create the HV arc and then after the piston is moving past the center eletrod the caps discharge? so the brass "button" dose not vaporize...

Russ I think you are on to something !!!

Plus the caps could recharge the entire time the piston is away from the close center contact point.

Good catch on finding this I think you got it nailed. ;)  :D

element 119

Quote from Axil on January 18th, 2013, 12:28 AM

FYI

A new way to make x-rays. Who needs buckets.

A solid state micro Particle Accelerator

Quote

The hand-held scanners, or tricorders, of the Star Trek movies and television series are one step closer to reality now that a University of Missouri engineering team has invented a compact source of X-rays and other forms of radiation. The radiation source, which is the size of a stick of gum, could be used to create inexpensive and portable X-ray scanners for use by doctors, as well as to fight terrorism and aid exploration on this planet and others.
 
The device uses a crystal to produce more than 100,000 volts of electricity from only 10 volts of electrical input with low power consumption. Having such a low need for power could allow the crystal to be fueled by batteries. The crystal, made from a material called lithium niobate, uses the piezoelectric effect to amplify the input voltage. Piezoelectricity is the phenomenon whereby certain materials produce an electric charge when the material is under stress.

Investigation and Optimization of a High Voltage Piezoelectric Particle Accelerator


Can anyone build this?

Here again we see the use of frequencies to boost and make easier the workings and effectiveness of smaller input voltage/energy. The piezo crystal has been in use for many years in our computers as a way to up the megaHerz to get faster computers.

In this device the only way they can do what they do is by mimicing the harmonics of the bonds of the x-ray. The piezo is a vibrating source, its not in itself a voltmultiplier. And with upping the voltage the amperage must go down. So to still brake the needed bonds, the frequency side of this needs to play along and do the real work.

What we should take from this is that we also should use frequency to get our input electricity (much needed) downwards. If we ever want an overunity device that is.

And also as we wanted to stay away from radiation, so also from x-rays, we first should try to get the effect x-ray's have with only the frequencted voltage.
If the high frequency can loosen x-ray's it also can dismember large atomclusters.

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on January 18th, 2013, 02:01 AM

hey guys, i think i just figured out something.

ok, so have a look at the Papp patents US4428193

in the patents you have this photo:



and here is the cylinder head:



ok, so for the longest time now i have been trying to figure out how a 40,000V spark was going to jump that gap...

its to big it would just jump to the cylinder head...

well check the first FIG 6 photo...

check #85

this is the center electrode... so that's how the spark jumps that  big gap...

but that's not all...

the cylinder is moving so this arc will fallow the lest resistance. and that is where the spark and the plasma is pulled down the cylinder and it may as well help form the "plasmoid"

there not i feel better... lol

thoughts?

~Russ

also from the patent:

Quote

The piston has a generally semitoroidal depression in its upper surface (see FIGS. 4, 5 and 11) and carries a conductive discharge point 85 of copper, brass or bronze generally along the axis of the chamber. When the piston is generally extended, the discharge point is a substantial distance from the electrodes. But when the piston is in its upper position (see FIG. 11), the discharge point is disposed generally intermediate all four electrodes and in close proximity thereto, there being gaps between said electrodes and the discharge point. When the piston is in this upper position, the electrodes extend somewhat into the semitoroidal depression in the piston's upper surface and the chamber is generally toroidal in shape.

so possibility create the HV arc and then after the piston is moving past the center eletrod the caps discharge? so the brass "button" dose not vaporize...

In my opinion this is a sound logical conclusion. Its the only way the spark can be made, so it also acts as a timer and perhaps in forming the start of a special toroidlike plasmacloud. And as these electrodes/buckets are already the ones dealing with the highvoltage, they are the best to use as the relay switch themselves. Nice one :)

Quote from BobN on January 18th, 2013, 07:24 AM

What I find unbelievable is his statement that he gets 1000 Volts at about 600 Amps from the cylinders. If this is true he is running a COP of around 50 (guess)

I think we all should be very cautious in taking anything Jimmy has said as gospel.  Just think about the wire sizes needed in those coils for 600 Amps.  Then look at the coils in his happy-birthday-John-(Hutchison) video.  In the plexiglass tube 'engine' (that doesn't seem to turn or run) he is using very large and high voltage discharge to get the piston to move 4 to 5 inches.  The debris that flies around in the chamber afterwords is the molten drops of tungsten (6191F+) that is being blasted from the electrodes.  The engine doesn't run, because he is not able to recharge the cap fast enough for multiple discharges, or he doesn't have the crankshaft connected, or both.

kcd

Quote

And also as we wanted to stay away from radiation, so also from x-rays, we first should try to get the effect x-ray's have with only the frequencted voltage.
If the high frequency can loosen x-ray's it also can dismember large atomclusters.

We are constrained by the laws of nature from all the things we want to accomplish. These laws are the policemen of our desires.

Electrons cannot get through the electron cloud that protects the atom no matter how hard we want them to. The repulsion caused by the coulomb barrier keeps electrons away from the Atomic clusters we want to explode.

But when fast electrons stop or turn quickly, they produce ultraviolet and x-ray EMF. This type of radiation is not blocked by the repulsion produced by the coulomb barrier. These EMF photons usually pass through the atomic clusters because these photons are without electric charge, but sometimes they interact with the electron cloud that surrounds and shields the atom. These photons sometimes knock out one or more electrons from the electron cloud that protect the atom.

With a big enough flux of high energy EMF, the chances are good that enough electrons are blasted out of the atomic cluster to cause it to explode. But we need a massive flux of high energy EMF to do what we want so the odds turn to favor us.

Even though its hard we must follow these rules of sub-atomic particle interactions if we want those atoms to do what we want.  Ignoring physical law is the stuff of dreams and in the end, a waste of time

But there is another way to counter the dread of radiation; one way to relieve the fear spawned by the term “x-ray” is to use a synonym for it: “deep ultraviolet radiation”; now doesn’t that feel a lot better?

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on January 18th, 2013, 02:01 AM

hey guys, i think i just figured out something.

ok, so have a look at the Papp patents US4428193

in the patents you have this photo:



and here is the cylinder head:



ok, so for the longest time now i have been trying to figure out how a 40,000V spark was going to jump that gap...

its to big it would just jump to the cylinder head...

well check the first FIG 6 photo...

check #85

this is the center electrode... so that's how the spark jumps that  big gap...

but that's not all...

the cylinder is moving so this arc will fallow the lest resistance. and that is where the spark and the plasma is pulled down the cylinder and it may as well help form the "plasmoid"

there not i feel better... lol

thoughts?

~Russ

also from the patent:

Quote

The piston has a generally semitoroidal depression in its upper surface (see FIGS. 4, 5 and 11) and carries a conductive discharge point 85 of copper, brass or bronze generally along the axis of the chamber. When the piston is generally extended, the discharge point is a substantial distance from the electrodes. But when the piston is in its upper position (see FIG. 11), the discharge point is disposed generally intermediate all four electrodes and in close proximity thereto, there being gaps between said electrodes and the discharge point. When the piston is in this upper position, the electrodes extend somewhat into the semitoroidal depression in the piston's upper surface and the chamber is generally toroidal in shape.

so possibility create the HV arc and then after the piston is moving past the center eletrod the caps discharge? so the brass "button" dose not vaporize...

This idea that 85 is a central anode makes perfect sense, if Papp wanted to make a plasmoid.


But to make this work, 85 must be connected to positive ground. All four electrodes are negative polarity.


The spark discharge travels separately from all four negative electrodes to the central positive anode (85).


I tried to verify this guess, and could not figure out the Papp circuits; how the grounding works.


Can anyone expert in this specialty here verify this guess by looking at the Papp circuit?

 
By the way, John Rohner uses a central anode with four cathodes if memory serves.


In a like note, JR says that he multiplies his spark voltage by 4 using this central anode configuration. This may be also be multipling  the 40,000 spark voltage that Papp used.  I don’t understand this. Is JR setting up a serial connection through the electrodes? Does the Papp circuit diagram show this? This is very hard for me to understand but I want to very much.

Quote from k c dias on January 18th, 2013, 01:20 PM

Quote from BobN on January 18th, 2013, 07:24 AM

What I find unbelievable is his statement that he gets 1000 Volts at about 600 Amps from the cylinders. If this is true he is running a COP of around 50 (guess)

I think we all should be very cautious in taking anything Jimmy has said as gospel.

yes. take with a gran of salt... but... there may be some good info in there..

 ?!?!

~Russ