If the Papp cylinder is really a form of pulse power capacitor, then this cylinder should be designed and built like it was a high voltage capacitor. Therefore, the best materials to use in its construction are thick highly dielectric materials such as plastic, PVC, and Lexan or some combination of same.


Included in the function of the constraining coils is to keep the high voltage charge stored in the noble gas mix away from the cylinder walls to avoid dielectric wall failure.

The feedback current should touch nothing but the buckets which perform the collection of this charge.

The piston should also be constructed from highly dielectric material to minimize capacitive charge leakage.

Guys, Dog One makes a lot of good points and several others are mentioning that for this to be a useful machine the energy input needs to be a lot lower.  I would suggest concentrating on getting a powerful single punch first that uses low electrical input.   That said, 33 years ago I designed a power system to recharge nine 400uF cap to 450V in 330ms.  That's 360joules x 3/s  and the whole supply was about 6" x 13" x 15".  I don't have the schematic of course but I used a novel technique of two 60Hz, 120V to 240V transformers (isolated secondaries) with the primaries wired in parallel and the secondaries in series.   The object was to charge the caps in about one time constant.  The peak DC output voltage was 480 VAC x 1.414 = 678V.  

How did I control this so the caps wouldn't blow up?  I fed the primary with a triac and used a phase control circuit to fire it.  It would start the first firing late in the 1/2 cycle and fire earlier each half cycle.  This produced a semi constant current source by controlling the output voltage to the caps.  A triac conducts in both directions so AC is applied.  This is a little unbalanced but the transformers could take it.  I had some safety circuits, you don't want to put that kind of power into a shorted cap.   This was used to fire a high power flash tube so the voltage would discharge to about 50 - 60 VDC, similar to what you get.  The safety circuit would do two things.  1)  trickle charge the caps to 50V at start up.  This would test for shorted caps.  The high power circuit would not cut in until the voltage reached 50VDC.  A shorted or very leaky cap would not let it charge to that point.    2) if the cap voltage dropped below 50V during operation, the main circuit would shut down.  You must have safety circuits and normaly safety circuits are redundant (use a separate opto).

Output cap voltage was measured by a resistor divider and some comparator circuit (TL431 maybe) and fed back to the primary side through an opto coupler to stop the charging.  This was used for many years at a medical institute.  Maybe this idea will help but, as is, it is not good enough for 33ms charge times.  You would need a primary side device that you can turn off much faster.  The triac just turned itself off at the end of each half cycle.  One way is to use a bridge Rectifier on the primary with the bridge AC inputs connected in series with the winding.  You then use an IGBT to short the + and - terminals of the bridge.  I only read here occasionally so I would probably miss questions.  Again, I think the less power route is needed.  

Quote from Jeff Nading on January 22nd, 2013, 11:35 AM

Quote from jabowery on January 22nd, 2013, 11:18 AM

Quote from Dog-One on January 20th, 2013, 09:28 PM

Russ, the part that kicked my butt was recharge time.  I can spend 20 minutes and make a plasma arc that blow your windows out, but doing this consistently every 33ms is a bearcat.

The way to get fast recharge is the same way to get fast discharge:

Use magnetic energy in coils rather than electrical energy in capacitors.

Capacitors can be used to bootstrap.

PS:  I came to this conclusion while trying to figure out why Paul Koloc's attempt at a ball lightning machine wasn't producing the correct current vs time profile.  I altered the SPICE model to use induction rather than capacitance and BOOM, the plots matched empirical measurement of lightning perfectly.

Could you post some photos and of the transformer or how this was done? Thanks.:D

Sorry, I don't think Koloc ever got the funding to implement it.

Conceptually its very simple:

A 5kJ cap bank charged to something like 17kV discharging into a regular old RLC circuit except that at the peak of the magnetic field around the inductor, the capacitor bank is switched out of the circuit leaving the only path through the plasmoid gap.  Making that happen in an affordable physical device with maximum energy transferred from the cap bank to the inductor is the real challenge.

I can imagine a two cylinder Papp engine where once it starts going the reciprocating discharges are all inductive with a huge amount of inductance in the plasmoid.

axil, yep.

FYI
The "ping pong" is referd to by papp folk as "crossover"


and if there is a crossover happening which is stated in papps patents and it is directly from the other cylinder ( as axil stated) then the energy will need to be applied to the other cylinder at 5 degrees after TDC from what i can tell...

i will study the patent a bit more to see how this may happen as far as timing...

~Russ

Regarding the crossover between cylinders of the feedback current from the 1984 patent:

Quote

…and an electrical cable 31 which is connected to the distributor and to both cylinders. Cable 31 (see FIG. 2) is also electrically connected to a switching unit 33 which preferably comprises a plurality of silicon controlled rectifiers (SCRs) or transistors. Also shown in FIG. 2 is a second electrical connection of the cable to the cylinders, which connection is indicated generally at 35.

The feedback current is directly carried between cyclinders on Cable 31 without concentration or storage by external  capacitors. The flow of this current between the matted two cylinders is enabled through switching by a distributor and conditioned by a switching unit 33.

Quote from Axil on January 22nd, 2013, 08:00 PM

If the Papp cylinder is really a form of pulse power capacitor...

You're not multiplying entities beyond necessity, you're multiplying entities in order to add an inferior mechanism.

The plasmoid is all that is needed to:

1) Explain the mechanical motion of the piston,

and

2) Explain the energy storage mechanism inside the cylinder.

The plasmoid energy storage is magnetic pressure.  The piston movement is from magnet pressure.  The very fast rise time of the discharge is from the collapse of the magnetic field.

Capacitor discharge doesn't want to have fast rise times.  Inductive collapse of magnetic fields can't help but have fast rise times.

Stop fighting mother nature and complicating things, Axil.

Quote from jabowery on January 23rd, 2013, 04:39 PM

Quote from Axil on January 22nd, 2013, 08:00 PM

If the Papp cylinder is really a form of pulse power capacitor...

You're not multiplying entities beyond necessity, you're multiplying entities in order to add an inferior mechanism.

The plasmoid is all that is needed to:

1) Explain the mechanical motion of the piston,

and

2) Explain the energy storage mechanism inside the cylinder.

The plasmoid energy storage is magnetic pressure.  The piston movement is from magnet pressure.  The very fast rise time of the discharge is from the collapse of the magnetic field.

Capacitor discharge doesn't want to have fast rise times.  Inductive collapse of magnetic fields can't help but have fast rise times.

Stop fighting mother nature and complicating things, Axil.

Jabowery thanks for your interest in this subject.

Quote

The plasmoid energy storage is magnetic pressure. The piston movement is from magnet pressure. The very fast rise time of the discharge is from the collapse of the magnetic field.

This assertion sounds true but can be proven experimentally by using a non-magnetic material like stainless steel or plastic to form the piston.

Quote

Capacitor discharge doesn't want to have fast rise times. Inductive collapse of magnetic fields can't help but have fast rise times.

You have missed the key to how the Papp engine works. Capacitive discharge from the noble gas mix is where the Papp engine gets the power to produce the spark discharge. It is collected by the buckets and passed directly to the electrodes in the other cyclinder and it flow is timed by a distributor.

In order to produce high energy EMF like UV and x-rays the spark discharge needs to also be more energetic.

Without Alpha emitters, a 40kv spark discharge that Papp used might just not be strong enough to do this job. This voltage is even below most of the x-ray residence levels produced by tungsten.



Bremsstrahlung and characteristic radiation spectra are shown for a tungsten anode with x-ray tube operation at 80, 100, 120, and 140 kVp and equal tube current.

Furthermore, Papp used Alpha emitters catalyzed by spark discharge as the main source of x-rays. A modern Papp engine design cannot use powerful Alpha emitters like radium. So a very high energy plasmoid is required to compensate for the lack of alpha radiation and the low spark level that Papp used.

A high powered plasmoid will generate those twisting large magnetic fields that you describe. These fields will accelerate electrons to very high energy levels. These electrons will in turn produce the x-rays that are so important in the Papp engine.

Subject to experimentation, the Papp engine must be gainful. X-rays of sufficient power might provide over unity ionization in noble gases since Papp depended on X-ray production in his design to be gainful.

More self-generating power is required from the noble gas mix via x-ray production in the current Papp design to compensate for the removal of radioactive sources from the 1984 design.

That means move voltage coming out of the noble gas mix. This is where capacitive discharge comes into play.

Please disabuse me any defects in thinking as has been done by others here often.

What to picture inside?

Large clusters of gasatoms need less electrons then in separated state.

If i spark electrons and break some bonds of large clusters, the separated atoms need electrons plus more space to be stable.

Is this why they go into plasma state? In plasma state there are electrons in abundance? Plus the plasma state forces more volume.

Then the spark stops and the break down of more clusters becomes less. The plasma is not a self sustaining phenomena, it gives of electrons while it exists. These electrons are floating away and a deficiency of them takes place. To deal with that the gas returns to a clustered state?

I'm made an attempt to create a timing diagram from the Papp 1984 patent by reading the text and tracing the circuit diagram. Not sure if this is the best way to show it, particularly the effect of the electrodes picking up the current and moving it to the opposite cylinder.
Also, the caps charge/discharge would of course not be linear and go to zero, so this is just notional.

Thoughts?

--Glen

Quote from ghobbs003 on January 24th, 2013, 06:11 AM

I'm made an attempt to create a timing diagram from the Papp 1984 patent by reading the text and tracing the circuit diagram. Not sure if this is the best way to show it, particularly the effect of the electrodes picking up the current and moving it to the opposite cylinder.
Also, the caps charge/discharge would of course not be linear and go to zero, so this is just notional.

Thoughts?

--Glen

Cool, thanks Glen.:cool::D:P

I'm attaching a file that points out why clustering if the gas molecules is unlikely to be happening. To get the clusters requires techniques not used inside the cylinder, and the binding-energies of such clusters are so weak that they would be quickly disrupted at normal temperatures. Note that "temperature" in these cases is divided up into translational temperature, rotational temperature and vibrational temperatures, which are actually different for the same sample of gas. To get the clustering, we need a small distribution of translational temperature of in the region of 0.1K - unlikely to happen after a pop.

Although John Rohner's "incredible shrinking gas" story led people down this road, please remember that it has not been confirmed by anyone else who was there. I know the people here would rather think they are being told the truth since they themselves can't conceive of anything else. In this case, I think that this is just a story. Sorry, folks....

Quote from simonderricutt on January 24th, 2013, 08:23 AM

I'm attaching a file that points out why clustering if the gas molecules is unlikely to be happening. To get the clusters requires techniques not used inside the cylinder, and the binding-energies of such clusters are so weak that they would be quickly disrupted at normal temperatures. Note that "temperature" in these cases is divided up into translational temperature, rotational temperature and vibrational temperatures, which are actually different for the same sample of gas. To get the clustering, we need a small distribution of translational temperature of in the region of 0.1K - unlikely to happen after a pop.

Although John Rohner's "incredible shrinking gas" story led people down this road, please remember that it has not been confirmed by anyone else who was there. I know the people here would rather think they are being told the truth since they themselves can't conceive of anything else. In this case, I think that this is just a story. Sorry, folks....

I just toss this out there, what i think happens in the process of plasmaoid. a magnetic field holds it together. remember Tesla had produced ball lightning.
He said it knows what it is, and how to produce it. it is similar to a back emf i think.
it expands, and then it collapses on itself. but there is a magnetic field that must keep it together. I don't know why he never told of this secret. but perhaps if we look to Tesla we may find the answer.

with my spark discharge experiments i see a plasma form, its simple a spark. but if the potential is opposed by a similar charge they will repel.

so i think the charge grows, and then it has no choice but to form if the potential difference become great enough. so theoretically you can make large balls, or small balls of lightning. Under higher opposing static fields. or this could even mean magnetic fields. it is like making the gap very large. in order to discharge it must be a high potential.

lets say i use a negative DC charge. ions will pull to it, and then form a ball, because it has no place to go.  ill add my movie just so you get an idea what i think happened.

link to experiment
as i make several discharges, the energy seems to need to build up more before i get a spark. in this case i think the opposing magnetic force causes a retardation in the discharge until it can overcome the opposition.

but thats just my opinion. lots of books on plasma out there. This is just my simple explanation.:huh::huh::

a link to dipole moment.

Negative Dipole:cool:

Quote from simonderricutt on January 24th, 2013, 08:23 AM

I'm attaching a file that points out why clustering if the gas molecules is unlikely to be happening. To get the clusters requires techniques not used inside the cylinder, and the binding-energies of such clusters are so weak that they would be quickly disrupted at normal temperatures. Note that "temperature" in these cases is divided up into translational temperature, rotational temperature and vibrational temperatures, which are actually different for the same sample of gas. To get the clustering, we need a small distribution of translational temperature of in the region of 0.1K - unlikely to happen after a pop.

Although John Rohner's "incredible shrinking gas" story led people down this road, please remember that it has not been confirmed by anyone else who was there. I know the people here would rather think they are being told the truth since they themselves can't conceive of anything else. In this case, I think that this is just a story. Sorry, folks....

An excerpt from your reference as follows:

Quote

Collisions between two atoms/molecules result in cooling. A three-body collision is required for forming a dimer in the beam.

When the two. atoms/molecules are at infinite distance, there is no interaction between them and the potential energy is zero. As they approach each other, in general the potential energy drops, i.e., there is an attractive force between them. As the total energy needs to be conserved, the kinetic energy will increase, i.e., the two atoms/molecules would approach each other faster now. Avery good analogy can illustrate this clearly.

Assume you are walking on a plateau on a hill top and approach the point where it goes down-hill. If you do not reduce your speed, you would start running. As the atoms/molecules approach each other closer, the kinetic energy will continue to increase until they arrive at the equilibrium distance for the dimer.
 
When they do arrive at this point, they cannot stop as they have the maximum kinetic energy now and will continue to move forward. As the potential energy increases beyond this point, they will slow down and finally lose all the kinetic energy when they come to the point where the total energy becomes potential energy, i.e., they hit ‘the wall’.

Here again, the atoms cannot stop as the potential is repulsive and the force acting on the atoms is equal to the negative derivative of the potential, i.e., F = – (d V/d R), where R is the inter-atomic distance. The atoms now start moving away from each other, virtually retracing their path and finally breaking apart. Let us now consider the situation when the two atoms are within the ‘bound region’ of the potential, i.e., within the range of R in which the potential energy is negative (see Figure 7 as well).

When the two atoms are in this region, if a third body collides with them it could take away some of the kinetic energy of this system. The two atoms will then be pushed down into the potential well forming the dimer.

The dimer would eventually lose all its kinetic energy, which now would be called vibrational energy as the two atoms bounce back and forth like two balls connected by a spring. Hence, the presence of a third body is essential for forming a dimer from two atoms.

The formation of clusters requires two conditions to occur, the translation of random kinetic energy in the gas atoms to coordinated directional energy with the gas atoms going in a common direction and a mix of different gas atoms to catalyze cooling.

In the cylinder, both these conditions are present. Piston movement and strong magnetic fields will induce gas atoms to flow in a coordinated way which will tend to convert random gas vibrations into coordinated movement of the gas atoms in a common direction.

Next, this process of multi-atom cooling is why a gas mix is required. As explained in the reference above, the presence of the varied weights of different types of gas atoms further adds to the cooling process when gas flows in a common direction.

Quote from Axil on January 23rd, 2013, 07:50 PM

Quote from jabowery on January 23rd, 2013, 04:39 PM

Quote from Axil on January 22nd, 2013, 08:00 PM

If the Papp cylinder is really a form of pulse power capacitor...

You're not multiplying entities beyond necessity, you're multiplying entities in order to add an inferior mechanism.

The plasmoid is all that is needed to:

1) Explain the mechanical motion of the piston,

and

2) Explain the energy storage mechanism inside the cylinder.

The plasmoid energy storage is magnetic pressure.  The piston movement is from magnet pressure.  The very fast rise time of the discharge is from the collapse of the magnetic field.

Capacitor discharge doesn't want to have fast rise times.  Inductive collapse of magnetic fields can't help but have fast rise times.

Stop fighting mother nature and complicating things, Axil.

Jabowery thanks for your interest in this subject.

Quote

The plasmoid energy storage is magnetic pressure. The piston movement is from magnet pressure. The very fast rise time of the discharge is from the collapse of the magnetic field.

This assertion sounds true but can be proven experimentally by using a non-magnetic material like stainless steel or plastic to form the piston.

I'll ignore what looks like a miswording on your part and simply respond with a quote from wikipedia on magnetic pressure in plasmoids:

Quote

A plasmoid has an internal pressure stemming from both the gas pressure of the plasma and the magnetic pressure of the field. To maintain an approximately static plasmoid radius, this pressure must be balanced an external confining pressure. In a field-free vacuum, for example, a plasmoid will rapidly expand and dissipate.

The external confining pressure can be mechanical -- it doesn't have to be magnetic.

The plasmoid's internal magnetic pressure may present itself to the surface of the piston as mechanical pressure.  Therefore the plasmoid does not "rapidly expand and dissapate".  Ball lightning plasmoids are stable for periods of time that are quite long enough to allow them to serve as inductive energy storage mechanisms between cylinder firings.  No capacitance is required.

At the end of the piston stroke, the plasmoid has maximum volume and can, at that point, be shorted out by the distributor causing the magnetic field to collapse (and cause the piston to return power-stroke due to the reduction in size of the plasmoid) with the corresponding spike in power from the magnetic collapse of the plasmoid-inductive storage going to the other cylinder to begin formation of that cylinder's plasmoid-inductive storage/expansion power stroke.

The "energy" -- although you meant to say "power" -- of this spike is enormous as are the momentary voltage and current.

Quote from jabowery on January 24th, 2013, 10:49 AM

Quote from Axil on January 23rd, 2013, 07:50 PM

Quote from jabowery on January 23rd, 2013, 04:39 PM

Quote from Axil on January 22nd, 2013, 08:00 PM

If the Papp cylinder is really a form of pulse power capacitor...

You're not multiplying entities beyond necessity, you're multiplying entities in order to add an inferior mechanism.

The plasmoid is all that is needed to:

1) Explain the mechanical motion of the piston,

and

2) Explain the energy storage mechanism inside the cylinder.

The plasmoid energy storage is magnetic pressure.  The piston movement is from magnet pressure.  The very fast rise time of the discharge is from the collapse of the magnetic field.

Capacitor discharge doesn't want to have fast rise times.  Inductive collapse of magnetic fields can't help but have fast rise times.

Stop fighting mother nature and complicating things, Axil.

Jabowery thanks for your interest in this subject.

Quote

The plasmoid energy storage is magnetic pressure. The piston movement is from magnet pressure. The very fast rise time of the discharge is from the collapse of the magnetic field.

This assertion sounds true but can be proven experimentally by using a non-magnetic material like stainless steel or plastic to form the piston.

I'll ignore what looks like a miswording on your part and simply respond with a quote from wikipedia on magnetic pressure in plasmoids:

Quote

A plasmoid has an internal pressure stemming from both the gas pressure of the plasma and the magnetic pressure of the field. To maintain an approximately static plasmoid radius, this pressure must be balanced an external confining pressure. In a field-free vacuum, for example, a plasmoid will rapidly expand and dissipate.

The external confining pressure can be mechanical -- it doesn't have to be magnetic.

The plasmoid's internal magnetic pressure may present itself to the surface of the piston as mechanical pressure.  Therefore the plasmoid does not "rapidly expand and dissapate".  Ball lightning plasmoids are stable for periods of time that are quite long enough to allow them to serve as inductive energy storage mechanisms between cylinder firings.  No capacitance is required.

At the end of the piston stroke, the plasmoid has maximum volume and can, at that point, be shorted out by the distributor causing the magnetic field to collapse (and cause the piston to return power-stroke due to the reduction in size of the plasmoid) with the corresponding spike in power from the magnetic collapse of the plasmoid-inductive storage going to the other cylinder to begin formation of that cylinder's plasmoid-inductive storage/expansion power stroke.

The "energy" -- although you meant to say "power" -- of this spike is enormous as are the momentary voltage and current.

What your theory does not explain to my satisfaction is the details of how the power is transferred between cylinders down cable 31, the inter-cylinder plasmoid power transfer line. Please explain this to inform and improve my opinion as explained as follows:

I believe that the power of the plasmoid is converted to ionization of the noble gases through various plasma ionization mechanisms; including shockwaves, X-rays, magnetic pinch, and electron and ion impact on neutral atoms.

Ionization is the lowest common denominator of energy storage and transfer, the quantity that the buckets pick up and neutralize as they convert ionization to the flow of electric power.

The conversion of ionization into electron flow of the proper characterization requires attention to pulse power capacitor considerations.

Those considerations are associated with the shaping of the electrical power pulse down the electrical link using properly formed capacitance design. Included in these considerations are the voltage, timing and shape of the pulse on the inter-cylinder cable.

The discussion on all of this just points out that we need to set up tests to start knocking down the answers.
Previously it was shown, with the all plastic experiment, that the gas expansion was present and a significant force. I think some way of testing the amount of force induced by the electromagnetic affects needs to be sorted, so we know how much of the total each contributes.
Also, the force of the backward pressure on the collapse need to be looked at and if there a magnitude placed on that aspect
The amount of current obtained on the collapse needs to be compared to what is put in and what affect the current flow has on the coils, both forward and reverse.

I personally don't believe you can not build a system without capturing the charge in capacitors. The need for timing control will prevent the raw use of the power as it occurs, that or you build something that never varies, very difficult.

There are some great comments and food for thought in all this.

Quote from BobN on January 24th, 2013, 02:35 PM

The discussion on all of this just points out that we need to set up tests to start knocking down the answers.
Previously it was shown, with the all plastic experiment, that the gas expansion was present and a significant force. I think some way of testing the amount of force induced by the electromagnetic affects needs to be sorted, so we know how much of the total each contributes.
Also, the force of the backward pressure on the collapse need to be looked at and if there a magnitude placed on that aspect
The amount of current obtained on the collapse needs to be compared to what is put in and what affect the current flow has on the coils, both forward and reverse.

I personally don't believe you can not build a system without capturing the charge in capacitors. The need for timing control will prevent the raw use of the power as it occurs, that or you build something that never varies, very difficult.

There are some great comments and food for thought in all this.

Quote

Also, the force of the backward pressure on the collapse need to be looked at and if there a magnitude placed on that aspect

What if the intensity of the backward pressure on the collapse is a direct function of the capture efficiency of the feedback current.

If no attempt to optimize the flow of the feedback current is made, the collapse may be very weak like  tire deflation with a pin hole flat.
 
So sorry, please excuse me, call me the feedback current guy because it looks to me that this current is very important to the proper workings of the Papp engine.

Quote

The amount of current obtained on the collapse needs to be compared to what is put in and what affect the current flow has on the coils, both forward and reverse.

Also the effect that a positive charge bias placed on the buckets has on the flow of the feedback current.

This is an important test.

About popper tests proposals

http://open-source-energy.org/rwg42985/popper/


Oh, and be free to add. :)

Quote from Axil on January 24th, 2013, 02:07 PM

Quote from jabowery on January 24th, 2013, 10:49 AM

Quote from Axil on January 23rd, 2013, 07:50 PM

Quote from jabowery on January 23rd, 2013, 04:39 PM

Quote from Axil on January 22nd, 2013, 08:00 PM

If the Papp cylinder is really a form of pulse power capacitor...

You're not multiplying entities beyond necessity, you're multiplying entities in order to add an inferior mechanism.

The plasmoid is all that is needed to:

1) Explain the mechanical motion of the piston,

and

2) Explain the energy storage mechanism inside the cylinder.

The plasmoid energy storage is magnetic pressure.  The piston movement is from magnet pressure.  The very fast rise time of the discharge is from the collapse of the magnetic field.

Capacitor discharge doesn't want to have fast rise times.  Inductive collapse of magnetic fields can't help but have fast rise times.

Stop fighting mother nature and complicating things, Axil.

Jabowery thanks for your interest in this subject.

Quote

The plasmoid energy storage is magnetic pressure. The piston movement is from magnet pressure. The very fast rise time of the discharge is from the collapse of the magnetic field.

This assertion sounds true but can be proven experimentally by using a non-magnetic material like stainless steel or plastic to form the piston.

I'll ignore what looks like a miswording on your part and simply respond with a quote from wikipedia on magnetic pressure in plasmoids:

Quote

A plasmoid has an internal pressure stemming from both the gas pressure of the plasma and the magnetic pressure of the field. To maintain an approximately static plasmoid radius, this pressure must be balanced an external confining pressure. In a field-free vacuum, for example, a plasmoid will rapidly expand and dissipate.

The external confining pressure can be mechanical -- it doesn't have to be magnetic.

The plasmoid's internal magnetic pressure may present itself to the surface of the piston as mechanical pressure.  Therefore the plasmoid does not "rapidly expand and dissapate".  Ball lightning plasmoids are stable for periods of time that are quite long enough to allow them to serve as inductive energy storage mechanisms between cylinder firings.  No capacitance is required.

At the end of the piston stroke, the plasmoid has maximum volume and can, at that point, be shorted out by the distributor causing the magnetic field to collapse (and cause the piston to return power-stroke due to the reduction in size of the plasmoid) with the corresponding spike in power from the magnetic collapse of the plasmoid-inductive storage going to the other cylinder to begin formation of that cylinder's plasmoid-inductive storage/expansion power stroke.

The "energy" -- although you meant to say "power" -- of this spike is enormous as are the momentary voltage and current.

What your theory does not explain to my satisfaction is the details of how the power is transferred between cylinders down cable 31, the inter-cylinder plasmoid power transfer line. Please explain this to inform and improve my opinion as explained as follows:

I believe that the power of the plasmoid is converted to ionization of the noble gases through various plasma ionization mechanisms; including shockwaves, X-rays, magnetic pinch, and electron and ion impact on neutral atoms.

Ionization is the lowest common denominator of energy storage and transfer, the quantity that the buckets pick up and neutralize as they convert ionization to the flow of electric power.

The conversion of ionization into electron flow of the proper characterization requires attention to pulse power capacitor considerations.

Those considerations are associated with the shaping of the electrical power pulse down the electrical link using properly formed capacitance design. Included in these considerations are the voltage, timing and shape of the pulse on the inter-cylinder cable.

Sorry Axil but I am not that familiar with Papp's patent.

I do, however, have hands on working with Koloc during the 90s on derivatives of US Patent # 4,023,065 ~ May., 1977; Koloc 376/146 cited by Papp in US Patent # 4,428,193 and I'm giving you my impression of what is actually going on inside the chamber based on my understanding of the reason Papp cited Koloc.

You may want to read this description of the plasmoid formation process by Koloc.  But read it with this caveat:  At that web page, the photograph of the "plasmoid" which is diamond shaped is likely not a plasmoid at all -- it is likely a CCD artifact, the dynamics of which I can describe if desired.  Koloc showed me 3 such images which he claimed were 3 sequential video frames showing the plasmoid lasting at least 100ms (3*30fps), and claimed he had lost the original video tape.  After years of working with him to gain his trust I was able to locate the "lost" tape tucked away in his lab and found that these were not sequential frames from a motion video, but individual snapshots.  About this time, Koloc began exhibiting what I can only describe as multiple personalities -- possibly in reaction to my closing in on his fraud.  I saw similar diamond shaped CCD artifacts of much smaller size appear on the video snapshots we took.  I truly believe Koloc to be gifted technically and possibly scientifically but something happened to him along the way to drive him mad -- whether it was vapors from his high power mercury switches, years of dextroamphetamine he had taken for narcolepsy, psyops attack or simply the stress of having to live with having committed fraud, I don't know.  What I do know is that Robert Bussard took Koloc's work on the Spheromak in association with the U of MD seriously, and that much of what Koloc has told me about lightning, plasmoids, solar flares and sunspots seems to hold up under examination.

Jabowery - many thanks for this input. Comparing what Koloc says and what Chukanov says shows a lot of similarities, and to me this seems a major clue as to what may be happening in the Papp process. I've attached a copy of Koloc's patent to help others who may wish to read it too.

Sadly, I can't see any of us managing to get hold of Boron and Deuterium to test out the aneutronic fusion idea, but making the fireballs with the correct magnetic structure should still be able to drive a popper or motor with enough over-unity to be useful.

Quote from simonderricutt on January 25th, 2013, 04:52 AM

Jabowery - many thanks for this input. Comparing what Koloc says and what Chukanov says shows a lot of similarities, and to me this seems a major clue as to what may be happening in the Papp process. I've attached a copy of Koloc's patent to help others who may wish to read it too.

Sadly, I can't see any of us managing to get hold of Boron and Deuterium to test out the aneutronic fusion idea, but making the fireballs with the correct magnetic structure should still be able to drive a popper or motor with enough over-unity to be useful.

I think this could be the breakthrough we have been looking for guys, testing will tell.:cool::D:P

Quote from simonderricutt on January 25th, 2013, 04:52 AM

Jabowery - many thanks for this input. Comparing what Koloc says and what Chukanov says shows a lot of similarities, and to me this seems a major clue as to what may be happening in the Papp process. I've attached a copy of Koloc's patent to help others who may wish to read it too.

Sadly, I can't see any of us managing to get hold of Boron and Deuterium to test out the aneutronic fusion idea, but making the fireballs with the correct magnetic structure should still be able to drive a popper or motor with enough over-unity to be useful.

The reaction is with Hydrogen-1 ('protium') and Boron-11 -- both of which are the most abundant isotopes available in borax from the grocery store and tap water.

The resulting reaction is often called p+B11 for "protium" "fused" with Boron isotope 11 to, very briefly, form a super-energized Carbon-12 nucleus which almost immediately fissions into 3 atoms of Helium-4.

However, to get an STP gaseous form of boron you'd probably need one of the boranes which are damned expensive.

I previously posted on the p-B11 potential of the Papp engine.

PS:  It is probably worth noting this 2010 paper that revives an older theory regarding the way p+B11 produces charged particles during nuclear reaction.

Quote from Axil on January 22nd, 2013, 06:54 PM

Quote from element 119 on January 22nd, 2013, 05:48 PM

Quote from Axil on January 22nd, 2013, 12:27 PM

The Papp cylinder is a pulsed power system which produces high voltage discharge in nanoseconds.

We have been calling this capacitive discharge the feedback current.

For the Papp engine to work, the cylinders must be paired so that each Papp “capacitor” discharges at a very high voltage to the mated cylinder in a ping pong mode.

The Popper is an incomplete system. It will not work because it does not have a paired cylinder to receive and reflect the high voltage discharge from another Papp cylinder.

In the second Papp design, the noble gas mix is an ideal dielectric medium to store the capacitive discharge.

The Papp cylinder is the capacitor that creates the explosive spark discharge in the mated cylinder.

This is a repetitive explosive process as charge ping-pongs between the mated cylinders.

The over unity charge accumulation will eventually explode one of the cylinders if the feedback current is not moderated using charge dissipation.

Good thinking Axil and I have some questions pertaining to the Papp system.

Staring event: cylinder 1 is at TDC and cylinder 2 is at BDC therefore something must happen to drive cylinder 1 to BDC and cylinder 2 to TDC.

There does not appear to be enough for this to happen with just 40 KV and 24 V DC on the electrodes.

But we do have a starter and this can mechanically drive cylinder 1 to BDC.

While this is happening then something must be occurring to charge up the N. gasses to a high potential to cause a high discharge in cylinder 2.

Can we assume (?) the gasses are stretched (?) from the starter moving the piston to BDC. So if the 40KV is on or pulsed (3 times ?) during this time is that where the gasses receive there capacitive charge?

Next turning to the popper like Bob and Russ have.

Even though turned upside down the popper piston is at TDC, vacuum is applied and gasses installed. So for a good experiment if the piston was mechanically pulled to BDC and then an HV is applied would it charge up the N. gasses then maybe transferred to capacitors ready for next pop?

The reason I am asking is Russ did not as far as I know see any recharging of the capacitors after firing the popper. Factors that could have stopped this from happening is the HV was not left on till BDC was reached or the gas charge needs to be rectified to DC to recharge the capacitors.

Quote

Can we assume (?) the gasses are stretched (?) from the starter moving the piston to BDC. So if the 40KV is on or pulsed (3 times ?) during this time is that where the gasses receive there capacitive charge?

The starter will produce a vacuum in the noble gases. This vacuum will cool the gases and noble gas clustering will occur.

The 40kv spark discharge will fire a number of times while the starter is turning to charge the noble gases up to the point of full charge. When the gases in the cylinders are fully charged, the gases will discharge (feedback current) to feed the other mated cylinder.

The buckets will collect the feedback current and will rout it to the other cylinder; a ping pong discharge cycle will then begin.

The very important function of the Papp engine is to preserve, protect and collect the feedback current so that it can power the generation of the spark discharge in the other cylinder.

I speculate that the first spark discharge is the big one that produces the plasmoid which moves the piston.

What we have not figured out is how to preserve, protect and collect the feedback current for use in the mated cylinder.

If you remember, we have visualized  this noble gas charge when we saw the green florescent glow emanating from excited helium atoms after a spark discharge in past Popper tests produced by Russ.

The means to produce the 40kv spark is not important. What are critical is the preservation, protection and collection of the feedback current.

I suspect that the discharge current is feed directly to the electrodes in the other cylinder without interim storage in other storage capacitors. That is, the first cylinder in the mated pair is the pules capacitor for the second cylinder and vice versa.

Both Rohner brothers are not properly dealing with the feedback current and therein lays the root of their failure to produce a working Papp engine.

Hello Axil

You said in this quote.

“If you remember, we have visualized this noble gas charge when we saw the green florescent glow emanating from excited helium atoms after a spark discharge in past Popper tests produced by Russ. “


That the green florescent glow was from the helium gas but from this info.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_gas

On the right it has Radon as the green glow and Helium with an orange glow.

So can you expand more on your thinking that this was helium glow and not radon?

Is it possible the gasses transformed into radon or with a black back ground and the big green Christmas tree on the glass could it have been a mirror like effect?

Quote from element 119 on January 25th, 2013, 07:28 PM

Quote from Axil on January 22nd, 2013, 06:54 PM

Quote from element 119 on January 22nd, 2013, 05:48 PM

Quote from Axil on January 22nd, 2013, 12:27 PM

The Papp cylinder is a pulsed power system which produces high voltage discharge in nanoseconds.

We have been calling this capacitive discharge the feedback current.

For the Papp engine to work, the cylinders must be paired so that each Papp “capacitor” discharges at a very high voltage to the mated cylinder in a ping pong mode.

The Popper is an incomplete system. It will not work because it does not have a paired cylinder to receive and reflect the high voltage discharge from another Papp cylinder.

In the second Papp design, the noble gas mix is an ideal dielectric medium to store the capacitive discharge.

The Papp cylinder is the capacitor that creates the explosive spark discharge in the mated cylinder.

This is a repetitive explosive process as charge ping-pongs between the mated cylinders.

The over unity charge accumulation will eventually explode one of the cylinders if the feedback current is not moderated using charge dissipation.

Good thinking Axil and I have some questions pertaining to the Papp system.

Staring event: cylinder 1 is at TDC and cylinder 2 is at BDC therefore something must happen to drive cylinder 1 to BDC and cylinder 2 to TDC.

There does not appear to be enough for this to happen with just 40 KV and 24 V DC on the electrodes.

But we do have a starter and this can mechanically drive cylinder 1 to BDC.

While this is happening then something must be occurring to charge up the N. gasses to a high potential to cause a high discharge in cylinder 2.

Can we assume (?) the gasses are stretched (?) from the starter moving the piston to BDC. So if the 40KV is on or pulsed (3 times ?) during this time is that where the gasses receive there capacitive charge?

Next turning to the popper like Bob and Russ have.

Even though turned upside down the popper piston is at TDC, vacuum is applied and gasses installed. So for a good experiment if the piston was mechanically pulled to BDC and then an HV is applied would it charge up the N. gasses then maybe transferred to capacitors ready for next pop?

The reason I am asking is Russ did not as far as I know see any recharging of the capacitors after firing the popper. Factors that could have stopped this from happening is the HV was not left on till BDC was reached or the gas charge needs to be rectified to DC to recharge the capacitors.

Quote

Can we assume (?) the gasses are stretched (?) from the starter moving the piston to BDC. So if the 40KV is on or pulsed (3 times ?) during this time is that where the gasses receive there capacitive charge?

The starter will produce a vacuum in the noble gases. This vacuum will cool the gases and noble gas clustering will occur.

The 40kv spark discharge will fire a number of times while the starter is turning to charge the noble gases up to the point of full charge. When the gases in the cylinders are fully charged, the gases will discharge (feedback current) to feed the other mated cylinder.

The buckets will collect the feedback current and will rout it to the other cylinder; a ping pong discharge cycle will then begin.

The very important function of the Papp engine is to preserve, protect and collect the feedback current so that it can power the generation of the spark discharge in the other cylinder.

I speculate that the first spark discharge is the big one that produces the plasmoid which moves the piston.

What we have not figured out is how to preserve, protect and collect the feedback current for use in the mated cylinder.

If you remember, we have visualized  this noble gas charge when we saw the green florescent glow emanating from excited helium atoms after a spark discharge in past Popper tests produced by Russ.

The means to produce the 40kv spark is not important. What are critical is the preservation, protection and collection of the feedback current.

I suspect that the discharge current is feed directly to the electrodes in the other cylinder without interim storage in other storage capacitors. That is, the first cylinder in the mated pair is the pules capacitor for the second cylinder and vice versa.

Both Rohner brothers are not properly dealing with the feedback current and therein lays the root of their failure to produce a working Papp engine.

Hello Axil

You said in this quote.

“If you remember, we have visualized this noble gas charge when we saw the green florescent glow emanating from excited helium atoms after a spark discharge in past Popper tests produced by Russ. “


That the green florescent glow was from the helium gas but from this info.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_gas

On the right it has Radon as the green glow and Helium with an orange glow.

So can you expand more on your thinking that this was helium glow and not radon?

Is it possible the gasses transformed into radon or with a black back ground and the big green Christmas tree on the glass could it have been a mirror like effect?

Helium atoms will give out a green glow when hit by electrons.

http://www.ic.sunysb.edu/Class/phy122ps/labs/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=phy124off:lab_8

 From PHY 124 Lab 8 - Measurement of e/m for the electron

Quote

A small amount of helium gas is present inside the tube, and when forced onto a circular path by the magnetic field supplied by the two “Helmholtz coils” shown in the figure, some of the electrons excite helium atoms in collisions. The excited helium atoms emit light that we see as the blue-green glow in the color pictures in this lab manual. We also see light emitted from marked areas along a glass “crossbar” hit by the electrons; these markers are delineated along a centimeter scale and allow us to determine – albeit with non-negligible experimental uncertainty – the diameter of the circular path of the electron beam. This diameter depends on the energy of the electron beam and on the strength of the magnetic field B inside the spherical vacuum tube. The B field is approximately perpendicular to the plane of the Helmholtz coils, and, when the tube is properly oriented, the circular path of the electrons lies in the midplane between the coils. The figure below will help you to use the right-hand-rule (remember the electrons have negative charge!) to visualize the directions of the electron velocity v, the magnetic field B, and the (centripetal) force F.

FYI: https://www.thesciencesource.com/store/image_upload/ep20%20angled.jpg
Jed