Quote from Lynx on January 7th, 2013, 01:21 AM

Quote

The circulation of the highly conductive argon results in a continuous cutting of the magnetic lines of force so that the current flows through the electrodes. This production of electricity is similar to the rotating copper wire cutting the magnetic lines of force in a conventional generator except that the rotating copper wire is replaced by the rotating, highly conductive argon.

IDK if you have to get a plasma going in the EPG, maybe it's the only (?) way to get
the argon to become conductive, in order for it to be able to generate electricity.

William J. Cozzolino at skyhero.com posed this question to me once, "What has a lower resistance than a direct short?"  I didn't know, so I guessed, "A plasma arc?"   :)   So there folks is your ever elusive negative resistor you have all been looking for.

Quote from Dog-One on January 7th, 2013, 01:35 AM

Quote from Lynx on January 7th, 2013, 01:21 AM

Quote

The circulation of the highly conductive argon results in a continuous cutting of the magnetic lines of force so that the current flows through the electrodes. This production of electricity is similar to the rotating copper wire cutting the magnetic lines of force in a conventional generator except that the rotating copper wire is replaced by the rotating, highly conductive argon.

IDK if you have to get a plasma going in the EPG, maybe it's the only (?) way to get
the argon to become conductive, in order for it to be able to generate electricity.

William J. Cozzolino at skyhero.com posed this question to me once, "What has a lower resistance than a direct short?"  I didn't know, so I guessed, "A plasma arc."   :)

Well there you go, the plasma sure has a few interesting properties to say the least.
This is going to be a most interesting year

In the bucket....


In the radioactivity book that Papp liked, there is mention that Thorium will stop emitting alpha particles when in contact with air / oxygen?

Papp used a gaschamber with nitrogen to fill the buckets, so that no outside air could be mixed in with them.

In one of the video's where the Papp engine runs, there is mention that the engine stopt running after one or two buckets bursted/failed.

Combining these things i conclude that for that engine it was crucial that the buckets where indeed doing their job of emitting alphaparticels to ionize/tantillize the mixture.

I also conclude that the running mix must contain air/oxygen.

Otherwise they wouldn't have noticed that the buckets bursted, if it wasn't for that the engine stopt by itself.

Further we know that the buckets were made of aluminum, but we also know that alphaparticles don't travel through that. So it also may have been some other material.  Plus we learn that the first buckets got worn out pretty fast. They collect the feedbackcurrent also, so maybe there is cavatation at play that wears them out faster?

Anyhow its good to notice that the engine won't run (on papps measured out electric input) without working emitting buckets. And i suspect that the buckets still were able to collect the feedbackcurrent, but that they stopt radiating alphaparticles. Or atleast one of them, the thorium one.

I wouldn't be too sure of that fact.  There is a video where Bob Rohner using his demo apparatus takes the thing all apart.  He even takes the thorium bucket apart and spills it all over his hand.  He then reassembles everything and it bangs away just fine.  I never saw him replace the thorium bucket he spilled unless the one he spilled was different than the one in his test device.

Quote from Dog-One on January 7th, 2013, 09:37 AM

I wouldn't be too sure of that fact.  There is a video where Bob Rohner using his demo apparatus takes the thing all apart.  He even takes the thorium bucket apart and spills it all over his hand.  He then reassembles everything and it bangs away just fine.  I never saw him replace the thorium bucket he spilled unless the one he spilled was different than the one in his test device.

Russ also bangs away without the buckets (there empty) , but with using so much energy it doesn't exclude things.  

If Bob was using less energy, like on an engine and had no other ionization source, had the right Papp mix and then would run without the buckets, then its convincing.

In this electricly unknown way of Bob's popper we just can't say if the buckets have use.

He might think they are belony, but we haven't seen how he runs an engine, with what energyinput and what ionization and what mix.

At the example i used it is clear that engine needed the buckets, if it is true what they said/wrote in that video. That the engine stopped and they found broken buckets, repaired them and run again...

Either that or a broken bucket with stuff getting into the chamber stops the reaction if the minimum electricity is used.

In the second case the buckets still could be useless, but a broken bucket is still halting the reaction at those energy levels.

And so in both ways its still another clue for the reactionscheme in the basket.

Dunk ;)

p.s. Or it could be that aluminumvapors halt the proces. Or chunks of them. Or they had a onetime electronics glitch that disappeared thereafter.

All probabilities, where only testing can get more answers.

In a normal engine any sort of broken metal bits in the cobustion chamber could ruin the rings and cause it to stop running.  I don't see why it couldn't also be a pure mechanical issue that the papp engine quit running because of a broken bucket.

Nate

Quote from FaradayEZ on January 7th, 2013, 07:39 AM

In the bucket....


In the radioactivity book that Papp liked, there is mention that Thorium will stop emitting alpha particles when in contact with air / oxygen?

Papp used a gaschamber with nitrogen to fill the buckets, so that no outside air could be mixed in with them.

In one of the video's where the Papp engine runs, there is mention that the engine stopt running after one or two buckets bursted/failed.

Combining these things i conclude that for that engine it was crucial that the buckets where indeed doing their job of emitting alphaparticels to ionize/tantillize the mixture.

I also conclude that the running mix must contain air/oxygen.

Otherwise they wouldn't have noticed that the buckets bursted, if it wasn't for that the engine stopt by itself.

Further we know that the buckets were made of aluminum, but we also know that alphaparticles don't travel through that. So it also may have been some other material.  Plus we learn that the first buckets got worn out pretty fast. They collect the feedbackcurrent also, so maybe there is cavatation at play that wears them out faster?

Anyhow its good to notice that the engine won't run (on papps measured out electric input) without working emitting buckets. And i suspect that the buckets still were able to collect the feedbackcurrent, but that they stopt radiating alphaparticles. Or atleast one of them, the thorium one.

FaradayEZ, once again you have provided us with another series of interesting, and thought provoking ideas in this post.

Quote

In the radioactivity book that Papp liked, there is mention that Thorium will stop emitting alpha particles when in contact with air / oxygen?

Based of course on their initial energy level, Alpha particles can only penetrate into just a few centimeters of air or other dense gases.

Quote

Papp used a gas chamber with nitrogen to fill the buckets, so that no outside air could be mixed in with them.

Do not make assumptions about what gas is placed inside the buckets from this.

From the first patent(#3,670,494) the buckets are described  as follows:

Quote

The hollow anode and cathode cells (aka buckets) may be made of stainless steel, aluminum alloys such as duraluminum, aluminum alloys containing zinc, antimony and cesium. Effective cells were made from an aluminum alloy containing antimony and cesium, said cells containing two grams of red phosphorus 99.5% pure in argon periodically approaching 15-20 atmospheres pressure. Anodes were stainless steel vessels each containing one gram of rubidium, the vessels being filled with 20-30% refined mineral oil and 70-80% argon periodically approaching 20 atmospheres pressure.

In the second patent (#4,428,193) the buckets are described as follows:

Quote

The cathode container is substantially pure aluminum. If desired, aluminum alloys with, e.g., less than 5% copper, 1% manganese and 2% magnesium may be used. In one embodiment, the cathode container contains approximately four grams of thorium-232 and is filled with argon. In this same embodiment the anode container is copper or brass and contains approximately two grams of rubidium-37 and approximately three grams of phosphorus-15 hermetically sealed in mineral oil. In a second embodiment, the cathode is still aluminum, but it contains at least two grams of rubidium-37 in addition to the approximately four grams of thorium-232 in either argon or mineral oil. In this second embodiment, the anode is also aluminum and contains at least 4 grams of phosphorus-15 and at least 2 grams of thorium-232 in argon or mineral oil. Alternatively, mesothorium may be used for the thorium, strontium-38 may be used for the rubidium, and sulfur-16 may be used for the phosphorus.

Note: mesothorium (Physics / General Physics) Physics obsolete either of the two radioactive elements which are decay products of thorium. Mesothorium I is now called radium-228. Mesothorium II is now called actinium-228


When Papp says mesothorium, he means Radium.


Alpha particles will not get through the bucket material (i.e. aluminum) and enter the noble gas mix. As a LENR process, the spark discharge may instantaneous increase(spike) the output of Alpha particle radiation level during and for a short time immediately after the spark.


As a consequence of this increase, the bucket material (i.e. aluminum) will convert the Alpha particles to x-rays when these particles collide with this structural bucket material.


These X-rays will excite the noble gas mix to pre-ionization levels.  

In the current day Papp engine design, we do not need radioactive material to produce x-rays to excite the noble gas mix. A high voltage pre-ionization low amperage spark will do the same thing.

I believe that Russ plans this in his design.

Also, the buckets which act as an anode will be polarized to a highly positive electric charge after the spark discharge is complete. This will attract the feedback current during the down stoke of the piston when the piston is returning back to the firing position.

I believe that radioactive material can be replaced by an appropriate circuit design that will polarize the buckets to a highly positive charge to attract the feedback current during the down stroke of the piston.

Russ has not yet considered implementing this feedback charge clearing circuit in his current design.  

On the other hand, the use of radioactive Alpha emitters does simplify things when multiple sparks are used during the down stroke of the piston.
The circuit that emulates what the alpha emitters do will be fairly complex both in functionality and in timing.

Quote

In one of the video's where the Papp engine runs, there is mention that the engine stop running after one or two buckets bursted/failed.


Combining these things i conclude that for that engine it was crucial that the buckets where indeed doing their job of emitting alpha particles to ionize/tantalized the mixture.

This is an interesting factoid. In the B. Rohner Video, I observe that the popper will produce a strong pop when the cylinder is excited for the first time as compared to when the popper is in continuous firing mode.

I attribute this to a buildup of poorly cleared feedback charge when the popper is in continuous operation. This feedback charge will inhibit the charge separation processes that impart force to the piston head.

I estimate a 'combustion' pressure of 2320 PSI in the Papp dyno tested engine.
Based on:

The dyno test cert:
726 rpm   
776 ft #   
107 hp   

And from Bob Rohner (facebook 7 Jan 2013):
2 cylinders
3" Bore
4.25"    Stroke
   
And just a couple wild guesses:
Dead Vol = 10 cubic inches
Collapse (negligible pressure) at 135 degrees after TDC

Edit: 8 Jan 2013: Files removed, back to thermodynamics class:blush:  The pressure stated above is too high (factor of two or so?).  I used an Isothermal expansion instead of an Isentropic expansion! My bad! - kcd

Quote from k c dias on January 7th, 2013, 02:26 PM

I estimate a 'combustion' pressure of 2320 PSI in the Papp dyno tested engine.

Do we have an idea of compression ratio between TDC and BDC?  Basically TDC head volume?  You are guessing 10 cubic inch right?

Also, do we know how many atmospheres the BDC cylinder was charged to?

At 135 degrees the piston is 3/4th between TDC and BDC.  Are you saying one atmosphere was charged at that point in the cylinder?  One atmosphere being roughly 14.7 PSI absolute.  I'm trying to clarify because if that is true, then at BDC the gas mix is at a vacuum (atmosphere < 1) which opens the door to how things might behave under those conditions.  I think you may be right based on the sound of the engine.  If the piston has constant force on the crankshaft (no vacuum), you don't hear the clunk (slop) in the rods and bearings that I heard in the video.  Personally, I wouldn't build a two stroke, twin cylinder engine this way, but we have to go on what we have.  Maybe it was just too hard to start if BDC is 1 atmosphere unless you use some sort of compression release mechanism or a much larger head space.

4.25 inch stroke is quite long for 3 inch bore--much closer to a diesel design which is high torque, lesser HP.  Do we know if they used flat head pistons with the piston face coming all the way to the top of the cylinder?

Quote

Dog one said: Do we have an idea of compression ratio between TDC and BDC? Basically TDC head volume? You are guessing 10 cubic inch right?

There is an assumption in this thinking that has not been verified by eperiment; that is, that gas expansion applies force to the surface of the piston.

An alternative force that may be moving the piston may well be electromagnetic.

The way that an experiment can be fashioned to tell what the force carrier is in the Papp reaction is to do what Russ intends to do as follows:

Quote

russ said: think what I'm going to do is connect the double acting cylinder (top side) to the bottom of the chamber and fill the entire chamber with the gas. This will release the vacuum and allow fully travail of the piston. (with some restriction on pip size) with this i will try a coil on with that big magnet on the piston to see how much voltage / current we can make... now ideally i could connect 2 pistons together or... connect a flywheel/system like tin man's pulsar idea...

Connecting the top and bottom volumes on both ends of the  piston using a wide diameter pipe will remove gas expansion as a cause of power transfer to the surface of the piston.

If the piston does not move, the gas expansion is traveling through the pipe; conversely, if the piston does move, the force moving the piston must be electromagnetic.

 

here is a post from Bob Rohner on the facebook group I started
Bob Rohner Megger Man
One of the books in Papp's arsenal was published by Dr. Rutherford way back in 1913. Read it to give you an idea about how he thought. I bought my own copy and despite what Dr. Dr. John says, a lot of the old science still applies. The online reading version is much easier

http://archive.org/details/radioactivesubst00ruthuoft

Besides ionization, I think you will find the section on Thorium interesting. It appears that through a process called emanation, the missing gas, Radon, is created. So we have a triple whammy by selecting thorium. 1) It is completely safe unless ingested 2) It enhances the ionization potential, and 3) it magically produces the 6th inert gas. Coincidence.!!

I apologize if the has already been posted here I try to keep current but I miss a page from time to time. Something to contemplate !

Quote from heero yueh on January 7th, 2013, 10:39 PM

Besides ionization, I think you will find the section on Thorium interesting. It appears that through a process called emanation, the missing gas, Radon, is created. So we have a triple whammy by selecting thorium. 1) It is completely safe unless ingested 2) It enhances the ionization potential, and 3) it magically produces the 6th inert gas.

So...  Is it possible that thorium contained inside an aluminum vessel under pressure or vacuum can release Radon?  I'm still not clear how the two buckets release anything into the combustion chamber.

But Radon certainly would provide more of what we would call a nuclear aspect to the gas mix.

So now, how about the phosphorous.  What does that add to the equation?

Quote from k c dias on January 4th, 2013, 08:52 AM

Quote from FaradayEZ on January 3rd, 2013, 10:55 PM

How is your progress KC, and do your circuits provide room for enough electrical power to be put to the ignition if wanted? Are you still waiting for something to again try to start your engine up?

As you know, my recent efforts have been primarily on the controller.  I believe that the controller design is open or generic enough that it can provide timing for a Cap Discharge Ignition.  I have done no more work with the engine, I have seen enough do-nothing-sparks in inert gas to know that I (we) are not anywhere close to the Papp process.  I know that Papp is dead and buried, but I can just see him laughing his arse off as we piddle around with this stuff.  I will continue my work with gas processing - chances are, Papp is laughing his arse off watching me as well, but, at least it is a different direction.

kcd

:) keep up the good progress and attitude!!! :)

i'm still heavily involved with the set up i have been working on... i think we will come up with something good. we have just begun! :)

~Russ

Quote from FaradayEZ on January 5th, 2013, 04:31 AM

Another option may be if KC can put more juice in his engine, more the russ way to get plasma going and do work with the poppertestsheets.

Or someone else who has a popper made.

Without these three options effectively the project is laying in dead water. :(

working on my circuit... will be doing the tests. time time time... cant even catch up on the thread more less work on the popper in the 20 degree weather... :)

~Russ

Quote from firepinto on January 7th, 2013, 12:35 PM

In a normal engine any sort of broken metal bits in the cobustion chamber could ruin the rings and cause it to stop running.  I don't see why it couldn't also be a pure mechanical issue that the papp engine quit running because of a broken bucket.

Nate

It sure could, although there was no mention of a busted cylinder or piston or scrapings. But they could also have hidden that info..but then again, why do that?

Nothing is sure?

Quote from Frank Grimes on January 5th, 2013, 08:12 PM

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on January 3rd, 2013, 11:31 PM

Quote from FaradayEZ on January 3rd, 2013, 10:55 PM

Quote

Russ:
i think what I'm going to do is connect the double acting cylinder (top side) to the bottom of the chamber and fill the entire chamber with the gas. This will release the vacuum and allow fully travail of the piston. (with some restriction on pip size) with this i will try a coil on with that big magnet on the piston to see how much voltage / current we can make... now ideally i could connect 2 pistons together or... connect a flywheel/system like tin man's pulsar idea...

 yeah?

 ~Russ

I'm afraid that then the piston would be staying stuck at the Top Down Position, the furthest away from the ignition?

yes this would be correct. that's why we need a fly wheel. or 2 apposing pistons.

Happy New Year Russ!

Since you put it out to the peanut gallery that you are interested in experiments/feedback, I have given some thought to your Papp type engine experiment.  If you are exhibiting some type of LENR reaction, resulting in a large amount of energy output, you will necessarily produce fusion products.  Because the amount of energy liberated from such a process would be large, you will only produce minute quantities of those fusion products.  Therefore, you will have a very hard time identifying those products directly.  Thus, you will need to measure the energy output vs. input, to indirectly observe the result of the any LENR process.  However, there is another potential way to obtain indirect evidence of a LENR process.  You observed a large effect utilizing Hydrogen gas alone.  If you are generating the power from a LENR process, it must be occurring from Deuterium (which is present to about 1 part in 6500 naturally), not hydrogen.  Therefore, if you had a pure Deuterium source, you could greatly enhance the probability of your nuclear chemistry, simply from a statistical standpoint.

Here is a potential supplier:
http://www.advancedspecialtygases.com/Deuterium.htm

Alternatively, you could electrolyze deuterated water, though this route involves a lot more work to manipulate it:
http://www.isotope.com/cil/products/displayproduct.cfm?prod_id=5700&cat_id=87&market=research

Quote from Axil on January 5th, 2013, 07:44 PM

From the latter Papp patent

Quote

In this case, once the engine is running, the full voltage needed to ignite the (smaller) quantity of gases is obtained from the electrodes in the other cylinder of the pair.

Quote

Thus it can be seen that electricity generated in one cylinder during a portion of the cycle is transferred to the other cylinder to assist in the excitation of the gaseous mixture in the latter. Note that this electricity is regulated to maintain a constant in-engine current. It should be noted that twenty four volts from the generator is always present on electrodes 63 and 65 during operation to provide for pre-excitement of the gases.

These sections of the patent states that the feedback current gathered by the electrodes can be used to power the next cylinder in the firing order.

Quote

Distributor 99 has two wipers 99A and 99B and supplies three pulses to each cylinder per cycle. Wipers 99A and 99B are 180.degree. out of phase with each other and each operates to supply pulses to its respective cylinder from TDC to 120.degree. thereafter. More pulses are desirable and therefore a better distributor arrangement (shown in FIG. 14) may be used.

This section of the patent states that Papp uses multiple sparks per cylinder firing cycle.


question... Deuterium gas is flammable... is it explosive?  or dose it need an oxidizer?

~Russ

Russ - chemically Deuterium is the same as Hydrogen, just around twice the density. It'll burn in air just the same as Hydrogen, and has the same dangers. If you were going to try it, though, it might be best to add it in a few cc's at a time, in case you do get any fusion in the ignition, with a back-fill of an inert gas. I haven't checked on prices of gas, but I suspect Argon would be the cheapest gas to use to dilute things and may have some other advantages too.

Quote from jabowery on January 6th, 2013, 05:55 PM

I appreciate that Bob Rohner has not yet made a claim of having achieved over unity -- although, given the context, he might be more aggressive about making it clear he has not claimed that.

Quote from Dog-One on January 6th, 2013, 05:06 PM

Quote from element 119 on January 6th, 2013, 03:09 PM

Bob just uploaded a new video ( 1 – 1 – 2013 )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpzwmOfHh4s

Bob is simple amazing! :D

I hope he gets first to market with his engine. :rolleyes:

For Profit Organization and will not talk about fuel mix, voltages or pulse train...   All the things we are missing.  Now I see why.  Too bad Russ couldn't convince him to open source those last final details--then we all would win.  Bob could still make a small fortune helping machine shops assemble working units.

bob is a good man in my eyes. he understands what it takes and what to and not to say... he is a down to earth kinda man. as far as I'm concerned. thanks bob for the positive attitude...  :)

~Russ

Quote from Axil on January 6th, 2013, 06:31 PM

Russ found a strong feedback current present when using a pure hydrogen gas; no Argon needed.

i'm still unclear as to what happen... it could have been something unclear. and may may have nothing to do with the presses... a "quinckidink. "

?!?!

~Russ

Quote from Axil on January 7th, 2013, 10:38 PM

Quote

Dog one said: Do we have an idea of compression ratio between TDC and BDC? Basically TDC head volume? You are guessing 10 cubic inch right?

There is an assumption in this thinking that has not been verified by eperiment; that is, that gas expansion applies force to the surface of the piston.

An alternative force that may be moving the piston may well be electromagnetic.

The way that an experiment can be fashioned to tell what the force carrier is in the Papp reaction is to do what Russ intends to do as follows:

Quote

russ said: think what I'm going to do is connect the double acting cylinder (top side) to the bottom of the chamber and fill the entire chamber with the gas. This will release the vacuum and allow fully travail of the piston. (with some restriction on pip size) with this i will try a coil on with that big magnet on the piston to see how much voltage / current we can make... now ideally i could connect 2 pistons together or... connect a flywheel/system like tin man's pulsar idea...

Connecting the top and bottom volumes on both ends of the  piston using a wide diameter pipe will remove gas expansion as a cause of power transfer to the surface of the piston.

If the piston does not move, the gas expansion is traveling through the pipe; conversely, if the piston does move, the force moving the piston must be electromagnetic.

i think its safe to say that the moment is not electromagnetic... remember the plastic bucket with just air... bang!

so not electromagnetic.

also i will need a check valve in the pipe on the test mentioned in this Post.

(PS. did you not mention a similar test configuration in a past post... i think so. )

Quote from simonderricutt on January 8th, 2013, 03:23 AM

Russ - chemically Deuterium is the same as Hydrogen, just around twice the density. It'll burn in air just the same as Hydrogen, and has the same dangers. If you were going to try it, though, it might be best to add it in a few cc's at a time, in case you do get any fusion in the ignition, with a back-fill of an inert gas. I haven't checked on prices of gas, but I suspect Argon would be the cheapest gas to use to dilute things and may have some other advantages too.

yes ok.

Russ,
"This section of the patent states that Papp uses multiple
sparks per cylinder firing cycle. question... Deuterium gas
is flammable... is it explosive? or dose it need an oxidizer?"
1.  D waste of time.
2.  Burns like H.
3.  Less prone toward super molecules (D ice cube sinks).
4.  Again I point toward Toroid chamber shape.
5.  Multiple sparks sequenced to form plasma shape,
rotational motion within Toroid chamber and ability to
electromagnetically confine same.  
6.  Piston movement caused by quasi expansion of pressure
caused by increase of distinct members occupying plasma
cloud. (H2,H,H+,H-,-) and plasma temperature.
7. Vacuum caused by drain of magnetic field usually via coil
and dissipation of plasma. (A ball of lightening is never
permanent).
8.  Suggest stick with your astonishing discovery of H2
popper and establish ground work for additional patent
claims to benefit your family and provide possible financial
independence to work full time on inventive genius God has
gifted you.
Chan

Quote from Dog-One on January 7th, 2013, 03:25 PM

Quote from k c dias on January 7th, 2013, 02:26 PM

I estimate a 'combustion' pressure of 2320 PSI in the Papp dyno tested engine.

Do we have an idea of compression ratio between TDC and BDC?  Basically TDC head volume?  You are guessing 10 cubic inch right?

Also, do we know how many atmospheres the BDC cylinder was charged to?

At 135 degrees the piston is 3/4th between TDC and BDC.  Are you saying one atmosphere was charged at that point in the cylinder?  One atmosphere being roughly 14.7 PSI absolute.  I'm trying to clarify because if that is true, then at BDC the gas mix is at a vacuum (atmosphere < 1) which opens the door to how things might behave under those conditions.  I think you may be right based on the sound of the engine.  If the piston has constant force on the crankshaft (no vacuum), you don't hear the clunk (slop) in the rods and bearings that I heard in the video.  Personally, I wouldn't build a two stroke, twin cylinder engine this way, but we have to go on what we have.  Maybe it was just too hard to start if BDC is 1 atmosphere unless you use some sort of compression release mechanism or a much larger head space.

4.25 inch stroke is quite long for 3 inch bore--much closer to a diesel design which is high torque, lesser HP.  Do we know if they used flat head pistons with the piston face coming all the way to the top of the cylinder?

Dog-One,

For now, please disregard that pressure number.  The calculations are faulty, the files have been removed, and the post edited.  I need to go back to thermodynamics class and study Isothermal versus Isentropic expansion. :blush:

But to answer your question, the Dead Vol, Vd, does refer to the combustion chamber space at TDC as you indicated in your question, and I have assumed 10 cu in.
(just a guess).

As I understand the Papp patent, the pressure of the gas charge at TDC (fully compressed) is 1 atm. and then it 'combusts' to form the higher pressure.  At some later point in the power stroke (135 degrees used in this example) the gas collapses, and if the gas collapse is fully completed, then there would be a partial vacuum up until the next completed compression stroke.  For the purposes of the power calculations, I believe that this vacuum pressure can be ignored as negligible.  

Your observations on the sound of the engine are interesting, because it does sound a bit like a vacuum pump running, the effect for that sound may be possibly as you describe.  But then, I thought I recall Bob stating that some part of that engine noise was due to a minor malfunction and was later repaired.

The piston, cylinder and head arrangement are very unconventional.  I will have to go look for the video of Sabori disassembling the top of the engine and post the link.  But it is a strange configuration; the sealed cylinder and piston assembly unscrews from a threaded part that is wrist-pinned to the connecting rod.  The cylinder moves up and down, the piston is attached to the head plate as stationary.  Strange.  I do not know if this is a functional requirement, or simply a paranoid Papp requirement, such that he can unscrew the assembly, go hide in his hidy hole to add gas, then return to screw on the filled assembly...

kcd

Russ said:

Quote

i think its safe to say that the moment is not electromagnetic... remember the plastic bucket with just air... bang!

so not electromagnetic.

also i will need a check valve in the pipe on the test mentioned in this Post.

(PS. did you not mention a similar test configuration in a past post... i think so. )

Papp had two designs for the Papp engine. To avoid confusion, it is important to specify which design we are talking about as follows:

In the first version of Papp’s patent, the US Patent # 3,670,494 (June 20, 1972), Papp describes the position of the electrodes in water on the surface of the piston in the cylinder.

This design point from the patent supports the basis for my opinion that the piston is forced to move through electromagnetic means… From the patent as follows:

Quote

“It is important however that the spark gap 31 of the electrode assembly extend slightly below the bottom of the two activating cells so that when the cylinder or chamber is in its collapsed or minimum volume position, the spark gap extends into the aqueous medium of de-oxygenated water in the bottom of the chamber. Similarly, it is desirable that the extreme lower ends of the activating cells contact or are in very close proximity to the water in the bottom of the chamber when the chamber is in its collapsed position.”


“The variable volume chambers may contain a pre-charge composed of between 10% and 25% of de-oxygenated water by volume,”

When this type of water based design is implemented, the following  video shows what happens when a spark is discharged near the surface of the water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdAcivqLJtg


A plasmoid is formed in the shape of a roiling ring after the discharge of the spark.

The formation of the same roiling ring type plasmoid will occur in the second Papp noble gas design. This has be experimentally demonstrated by many experiments over the last 60 years since 1954.

Hi Please Like my Post .

Special Shout to RUSS, Very good
knowledge coming from your work. to help get the world involved.
Never stop we all struggle to assist.

members
better pop link here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNSAXbZfnbE&list=FLLuDKTNDFfat7iO7KGE7fQA

info link
http://cdn.coldfusionnow.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Lightning-harnessed-Infinite-Magazine-2003-copy.pdf

Note Stan may have keep simplifying until he was ionizing air and banging it.
his last step may have been removing water.

Note 2 - EPG may have been  the stator on it milking the expansion.
gas lattice may be valid to control movement. and should be remembered for inside cylinders also(test it ) ion argon gas in popper. better magnetic control?

Remember

1. "it's very hard work to keep things simple"
the above highlights that to us all in this forum.

2.share.