Quote from Dog-One on January 3rd, 2013, 05:50 PM

I apologize for not really following this project in full detail, so if I ask this question and it has already been answered, take no offense, maybe even point me to the post where it was answered.

Has anyone tried pulling all the high voltage spark ignition guts out and instead used a magnetron tube and shot microwaves into the chamber?

I ask because at one time when I toured GM's engine facility in Pontiac Michigan, they had under wraps a prototype engine that used wave guides into the cylinder instead of typical spark plugs for ignition.  The engine had a plastic garbage bag over it so I hung near the end of the tour line and quickly took a little peek.  About one inch square pipes into the cylinder heads, unmistakable.  Something tells me this engine was buried away because I bet it worked way too good to release to the general public.  It may have even worked so well it didn't need fuel.

In post 447 of this thread as follows

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=659&pid=8096&highlight=microwave#pid8096

I talk about building a custom magnetron tube for exciting hydrogen gas.

Quote from Axil on January 3rd, 2013, 06:30 PM

Quote from Dog-One on January 3rd, 2013, 05:50 PM

I apologize for not really following this project in full detail, so if I ask this question and it has already been answered, take no offense, maybe even point me to the post where it was answered.

Has anyone tried pulling all the high voltage spark ignition guts out and instead used a magnetron tube and shot microwaves into the chamber?

I ask because at one time when I toured GM's engine facility in Pontiac Michigan, they had under wraps a prototype engine that used wave guides into the cylinder instead of typical spark plugs for ignition.  The engine had a plastic garbage bag over it so I hung near the end of the tour line and quickly took a little peek.  About one inch square pipes into the cylinder heads, unmistakable.  Something tells me this engine was buried away because I bet it worked way too good to release to the general public.  It may have even worked so well it didn't need fuel.

In post 447 of this thread as follows

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=659&pid=8096&highlight=microwave#pid8096

I talk about building a custom magnetron tube for exciting hydrogen gas.

This is a really good point to think about , I have two old MW and junked another out.:cool::D:P

Quote

Jeff:
There is such a thing as a starter/generator motor combination, we had this kind of set up on our 4 cylinder tractor. But you are right, don't know how the Papp engine was started.
http://www.simpletractors.com/service/el...erator.htm

That would be a good sollution for the papp engine, if it really needs turnover or not, it does and delivers electricity the same time.

Quote

Bobn:
A lot of talk on the vacuum created, it would be great if we could figure a way to use Russ's design to characterize the strength of the vacuum. Try and devise a way to see what it will lift and see what work potential we are talking about.

Just turn the popper upside down?

Quote

Russ:
i think what I'm going to do is connect the double acting cylinder (top side) to the bottom of the chamber and fill the entire chamber with the gas. This will release the vacuum and allow fully travail of the piston. (with some restriction on pip size) with this i will try a coil on with that big magnet on the piston to see how much voltage / current we can make... now ideally i could connect 2 pistons together or... connect a flywheel/system like tin man's pulsar idea...

 yeah?

 ~Russ

I'm afraid that then the piston would be staying stuck at the Top Down Position, the furthest away from the ignition?

Quote

Chan:
going ahead with the suggested "Snap, crackle, pop" and

Is that another kind of popper device?

Quote

KC:
New files added!! Schematic and board layout for the IGBT Board.

How is your progress KC, and do your circuits provide room for enough electrical power to be put to the ignition if wanted? Are you still waiting for something to again try to start your engine up?

Quote

Element119:
The other method and most likely correct would be to evac and fill one cylinder at TDC then rotate the crank 180 degrees and evac and fill the other cylinder. With this method it may be possible to start the motor without a starter but if the engine was shut off then one would need to rotate the crank till one cylinder was at TDC.

I think you see it right, after usage and stop, to restart one needs to rotate the crank a bit so that the first cylinder is ready to popp.
Only difference i see is between starterengine, i think it is on the left side the smaller one, above what you call now the starter.
But Bob should be able to tell us, this is not hidden information to him..

Quote

Dog-one:
Has anyone tried pulling all the high voltage spark ignition guts out and instead used a magnetron tube and shot microwaves into the chamber?

It has an interesting potential, also in tantillising the mix. Only thing i think is a difficulty with it, is that the exact ignition time is difficult to find with it. So if used in cooperation with a ignitionspark i think it has a change. Otherwise not, an engine needs a precise timing, and a magnetron uses vibration and harmonics, and that is a proces using time to warm up..like the kid on the swing..you can't do it by one push..it needs time

As an ionization/tantillasing source it sure could be used. But then we are adding energy again into the popp process.
With the chlorinated water that would be different, but thats also why i don't understand how that stuff could be keeping up the ionization for longer? Does it work like a permanent magnet? What can do permanent ionization..beside the alpha particals from the buckets?

But it needs a separate test i think, using a magnetron and maybe spark added. Especially when we can tune the magnetron to gas instead of water and fat, as it is normally standard tuned.

Quote from FaradayEZ on January 3rd, 2013, 10:55 PM

Quote

Russ:
i think what I'm going to do is connect the double acting cylinder (top side) to the bottom of the chamber and fill the entire chamber with the gas. This will release the vacuum and allow fully travail of the piston. (with some restriction on pip size) with this i will try a coil on with that big magnet on the piston to see how much voltage / current we can make... now ideally i could connect 2 pistons together or... connect a flywheel/system like tin man's pulsar idea...

 yeah?

 ~Russ

I'm afraid that then the piston would be staying stuck at the Top Down Position, the furthest away from the ignition?

yes this would be correct. that's why we need a fly wheel. or 2 apposing pistons.

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on January 3rd, 2013, 11:31 PM

Quote from FaradayEZ on January 3rd, 2013, 10:55 PM

Quote

Russ:
i think what I'm going to do is connect the double acting cylinder (top side) to the bottom of the chamber and fill the entire chamber with the gas. This will release the vacuum and allow fully travail of the piston. (with some restriction on pip size) with this i will try a coil on with that big magnet on the piston to see how much voltage / current we can make... now ideally i could connect 2 pistons together or... connect a flywheel/system like tin man's pulsar idea...

 yeah?

 ~Russ

I'm afraid that then the piston would be staying stuck at the Top Down Position, the furthest away from the ignition?

yes this would be correct. that's why we need a fly wheel. or 2 apposing pistons.

You are free to do your fancy.
Although i would rather see you doing the stuff from the testsheets first, and try to go more direct to the Papp secrets, that's only one persons opinion.

Quote from FaradayEZ on January 3rd, 2013, 10:55 PM

It has an interesting potential, also in tantillising the mix. Only thing i think is a difficulty with it, is that the exact ignition time is difficult to find with it. So if used in cooperation with a ignitionspark i think it has a change. Otherwise not, an engine needs a precise timing, and a magnetron uses vibration and harmonics, and that is a proces using time to warm up..like the kid on the swing..you can't do it by one push..it needs time

Thank you FaradayEZ.  I Agree it may need to be tuned to something contained in the chamber to get maximum effect.  I disagree about the warm-up and timing.  The heater winding can be left on and just pulse the high voltage on the expansion strokes.  To get a two stroke, single cylinder Papp engine to run at 3600 RPM, you only need to pulse at 60Hz; that should be easy.  A couple of high voltage MOSFETs and you are off to the races.

Certainly everyone has seen the plasma trick in the microwave oven where you light a candle, cover the candle with a glass container and start the oven.  Seems to me you could precisely control the creation of the plasma ball.  I would figure the hard part is getting the microwaves to enter the chamber without reflecting back out.

This does sound like a fun project.  I'll have to go back through the entire thread and catch-up a bit.

Quote from Dog-One on January 4th, 2013, 03:24 AM

The heater winding can be left on and just pulse the high voltage on the expansion strokes.

Pulse them through the heater winding or have the sparkgap still in place?

Quote

Seems to me you could precisely control the creation of the plasma ball.  I would figure the hard part is getting the microwaves to enter the chamber without reflecting back out.

The Papp engine needs precise creation and collapse of the plasma, if you think a magnetron can do that, then we won't need the sparkgap. Maybe by angling the input from the magnetron, so as it will reflect a dozen times on the sides going upwards to the piston might be a way without reflecting much back/out.

On the popper this idea could be done in both ways, as a ionizing source with the sparkgap and spark; and as a standalone in creating the plasma and controlling its on and off state as you think to be possible.

Just putting a halve grape in the microwave makes a plasma already, according to a youtube video. ;)

If there is a difference between these plasma's and the expanding plasma we know from the popper i don't know.

Quote from FaradayEZ on January 4th, 2013, 04:11 AM

Pulse them through the heater winding or have the sparkgap still in place?

No don't pulse the low voltage heater side, just leave that energized.  Pulse the high voltage side.  You could probably add the HV MOSFET in series with the diode.



But if this won't create the instant and massive plasma expansion, then it is a moot point.  I had just wondered if anyone had tried to fire a Papp engine/piston this way.  If it would work and get the desired effect, you wouldn't have the delay involved in the spark system trying to charge for the next cycle.

Quote from FaradayEZ on January 4th, 2013, 04:11 AM

Quote from Dog-One on January 4th, 2013, 03:24 AM

The heater winding can be left on and just pulse the high voltage on the expansion strokes.

Pulse them through the heater winding or have the sparkgap still in place?

Quote

Seems to me you could precisely control the creation of the plasma ball.  I would figure the hard part is getting the microwaves to enter the chamber without reflecting back out.

The Papp engine needs precise creation and collapse of the plasma, if you think a magnetron can do that, then we won't need the sparkgap. Maybe by angling the input from the magnetron, so as it will reflect a dozen times on the sides going upwards to the piston might be a way without reflecting much back/out.

On the popper this idea could be done in both ways, as a ionizing source with the sparkgap and spark; and as a standalone in creating the plasma and controlling its on and off state as you think to be possible.

Just putting a halve grape in the microwave makes a plasma already, according to a youtube video. ;)

If there is a difference between these plasma's and the expanding plasma we know from the popper i don't know.

MW wave guides are metal tunnels the waves flow through, then directed into the oven cavity.

Quote from FaradayEZ on January 3rd, 2013, 10:55 PM

How is your progress KC, and do your circuits provide room for enough electrical power to be put to the ignition if wanted? Are you still waiting for something to again try to start your engine up?

As you know, my recent efforts have been primarily on the controller.  I believe that the controller design is open or generic enough that it can provide timing for a Cap Discharge Ignition.  I have done no more work with the engine, I have seen enough do-nothing-sparks in inert gas to know that I (we) are not anywhere close to the Papp process.  I know that Papp is dead and buried, but I can just see him laughing his arse off as we piddle around with this stuff.  I will continue my work with gas processing - chances are, Papp is laughing his arse off watching me as well, but, at least it is a different direction.

kcd

Quote from k c dias on January 4th, 2013, 08:52 AM

Quote from FaradayEZ on January 3rd, 2013, 10:55 PM

How is your progress KC, and do your circuits provide room for enough electrical power to be put to the ignition if wanted? Are you still waiting for something to again try to start your engine up?

As you know, my recent efforts have been primarily on the controller.  I believe that the controller design is open or generic enough that it can provide timing for a Cap Discharge Ignition.  I have done no more work with the engine, I have seen enough do-nothing-sparks in inert gas to know that I (we) are not anywhere close to the Papp process.  I know that Papp is dead and buried, but I can just see him laughing his arse off as we piddle around with this stuff.  I will continue my work with gas processing - chances are, Papp is laughing his arse off watching me as well, but, at least it is a different direction.

kcd

So in a way, you have a ready to go Papp engine, only in need of the right mix.

The amount of electricity that Papp used, you can provide to yours.

Ok, i mailed Terry Dixon and he replied positive, he was busy with all kind of things but was willing to answer a question in his field. I still have to make that question mail and he has to find the time for it, but we may go a bit forward on the possibilities for what the mix could be.

I think a big help would be if we get a poppered-out mixture to him to place under a gaschromatograph.


 

Quote from FaradayEZ on January 4th, 2013, 09:41 AM

Quote from k c dias on January 4th, 2013, 08:52 AM

Quote from FaradayEZ on January 3rd, 2013, 10:55 PM

How is your progress KC, and do your circuits provide room for enough electrical power to be put to the ignition if wanted? Are you still waiting for something to again try to start your engine up?

As you know, my recent efforts have been primarily on the controller.  I believe that the controller design is open or generic enough that it can provide timing for a Cap Discharge Ignition.  I have done no more work with the engine, I have seen enough do-nothing-sparks in inert gas to know that I (we) are not anywhere close to the Papp process.  I know that Papp is dead and buried, but I can just see him laughing his arse off as we piddle around with this stuff.  I will continue my work with gas processing - chances are, Papp is laughing his arse off watching me as well, but, at least it is a different direction.

kcd

So in a way, you have a ready to go Papp engine, only in need of the right mix.

The amount of electricity that Papp used, you can provide to yours.

Ok, i mailed Terry Dixon and he replied positive, he was busy with all kind of things but was willing to answer a question in his field. I still have to make that question mail and he has to find the time for it, but we may go a bit forward on the possibilities for what the mix could be.

I think a big help would be if we get a poppered-out mixture to him to place under a gaschromatograph.

That's great news EZ, it would be wonderful to have Terry back.:cool::D:P

Quote from Dog-One on January 4th, 2013, 05:25 AM

Quote from FaradayEZ on January 4th, 2013, 04:11 AM

Pulse them through the heater winding or have the sparkgap still in place?

No don't pulse the low voltage heater side, just leave that energized.  Pulse the high voltage side.

Pulse the highvoltage side on the magnetroncircuit?

Not the highvoltage side on the sparkgap in the popper?

Have to get it clear..;)

On the idea of using microwave oven parts to make an adventurous and dangerous experiment,  try first to fill some test tubes with inert gasses (at one atmosphere), close them with a rubber stopper an 'cook' in an unmodified microwave oven. Well, maybe disable the internal light so you can see if there is any light/plasma formed..

A simple experiment. Try isolated gases, try mixes, etc.  The worse case is the cork pops out..

A neon sign maker friend of mine tried microwaving a 1 liter glass flask of neon and also some '1050' (80% argon, 20% neon) - neither one did squat... Your mileage may vary.

kcd

Quote from k c dias on January 4th, 2013, 10:35 AM

On the idea of using microwave oven parts to make an adventurous and dangerous experiment,  try first to fill some test tubes with inert gasses (at one atmosphere), close them with a rubber stopper an 'cook' in an unmodified microwave oven. Well, maybe disable the internal light so you can see if there is any light/plasma formed..

A simple experiment. Try isolated gases, try mixes, etc.  The worse case is the cork pops out..

A neon sign maker friend of mine tried microwaving a 1 liter glass flask of neon and also some '1050' (80% argon, 20% neon) - neither one did squat... Your mileage may vary.

kcd

Good idea of an experiment KC.:D

Quote from k c dias on January 4th, 2013, 10:35 AM

A neon sign maker friend of mine tried microwaving a 1 liter glass flask of neon and also some '1050' (80% argon, 20% neon) - neither one did squat... Your mileage may vary.

kcd

I had a feeling someone had tried such a thing with zero results.  Thanks for the update.

Replicated this with spectacular results:
http://nickelpower.org/2012/12/24/can-cold-fusion-be-this-easy/
Chan

Quote from Chan on January 4th, 2013, 02:43 PM

Replicated this with spectacular results:
http://nickelpower.org/2012/12/24/can-cold-fusion-be-this-easy/
Chan

very well done, and explained. beautiful. there are some interesting effects to learn.
battery's for instance.

Simply stunning. cheers.

:heart::angel::Great job bravo.

Quote from Dog-One on January 4th, 2013, 02:22 PM

Quote from k c dias on January 4th, 2013, 10:35 AM

A neon sign maker friend of mine tried microwaving a 1 liter glass flask of neon and also some '1050' (80% argon, 20% neon) - neither one did squat... Your mileage may vary.

kcd

I had a feeling someone had tried such a thing with zero results.  Thanks for the update.

Should we leave the idea now? Or find out how to tune a magnetron to these gasparticals?

Quote from FaradayEZ on January 4th, 2013, 04:55 PM

Should we leave the idea now? Or find out how to tune a magnetron to these gasparticals?

Yes, lets put it behind us.  Sorry for derailing the conversation.

After watching the Bob Rohner demonstration and the actual Papp engine running with two Heath Kit CDI modules, I must say using microwave ignition seems a little overkill.

So what is the current status of this project?  Russ was able to show the effect right?  It's just never been hooked to a crankshaft and properly timed and triggered as yet?  Is that where we are?  Or do we still need to figure out the gas mix and the buckets with thorium and phosphorus?

Quote from Dog-One on January 4th, 2013, 06:01 PM

Quote from FaradayEZ on January 4th, 2013, 04:55 PM

Should we leave the idea now? Or find out how to tune a magnetron to these gasparticals?

Yes, lets put it behind us.  Sorry for derailing the conversation.

After watching the Bob Rohner demonstration and the actual Papp engine running with two Heath Kit CDI modules, I must say using microwave ignition seems a little overkill.

So what is the current status of this project?  Russ was able to show the effect right?  It's just never been hooked to a crankshaft and properly timed and triggered as yet?  Is that where we are?  Or do we still need to figure out the gas mix and the buckets with thorium and phosphorus?

All the above, actually.:D:P:P:P:P

A recent post by Bob Rohner listed a book on radio active minerals from 1913 which I skimed thru and found that helium is a by product of radio active decay of many radio active materials. He said that Joe Papp kept this book handy. Could the radio active nodes used by Papp have been to replace helium as it was used up? I also noticed On Papps engine 2 capitive discharge units from the late 60es,early 70's that hooked up to his spark electrodes.The research goes on. Ed hemphill   hope this helps some body.

Quote from edxhemphill on January 4th, 2013, 07:03 PM

A recent post by Bob Rohner listed a book on radio active minerals from 1913 which I skimed thru and found that helium is a by product of radio active decay of many radio active materials. He said that Joe Papp kept this book handy. Could the radio active nodes used by Papp have been to replace helium as it was used up? I also noticed On Papps engine 2 capitive discharge units from the late 60es,early 70's that hooked up to his spark electrodes.The research goes on. Ed hemphill   hope this helps some body.

Interesting, where did he post this? And what is the book called, maybe its made online available already. Always good to know how Papp was thinking!

Quote from Jeff Nading on January 4th, 2013, 06:29 PM

Quote from Dog-One on January 4th, 2013, 06:01 PM

Quote from FaradayEZ on January 4th, 2013, 04:55 PM

Should we leave the idea now? Or find out how to tune a magnetron to these gasparticals?

Yes, lets put it behind us.  Sorry for derailing the conversation.

After watching the Bob Rohner demonstration and the actual Papp engine running with two Heath Kit CDI modules, I must say using microwave ignition seems a little overkill.

So what is the current status of this project?  Russ was able to show the effect right?  It's just never been hooked to a crankshaft and properly timed and triggered as yet?  Is that where we are?  Or do we still need to figure out the gas mix and the buckets with thorium and phosphorus?

All the above, actually.:D:P:P:P:P

It wasn't derailing. All our delibberies that go towards something useful to be tested, get into the popper test sheets. It is up to Russ to start working on the sheet, do the tests proposed. After and during that we get some hard data with which we can go on in finding the secret mix and other secrets.

We need Russ to go further, i can't ask Terry Dixon what the chemical reaction in the papp engine might be without getting a outpopped sample for him to put under a gaschromatograph.

etc.

Another option may be if KC can put more juice in his engine, more the russ way to get plasma going and do work with the poppertestsheets.

Or someone else who has a popper made.

Without these three options effectively the project is laying in dead water. :(

FYI:
Chlorine gas reacts with water to give hypochlorous acid
and hydrochloric acid
Cl2 + H2O -> HOCl + HCl
Chan

Quote from Chan on January 5th, 2013, 06:29 AM

FYI:
Chlorine gas reacts with water to give hypochlorous acid
and hydrochloric acid
Cl2 + H2O -> HOCl + HCl
Chan

Chlorine gas is also very deadly and is one gas used for chemical warfare. If this one is used, which I would say no to, please be extremely careful!!!!!!!!!!!! :angel::angel::angel: