Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.

element 119

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1175, on December 27th, 2012, 11:11 AM »
Don’t forget about the absence of heat. So not the normal process of gas expansion like a gas engine.

It could be the coils are there for only one reason, to maybe squeeze the lighter gasses into the middle and keep them away from the piston seals. Maybe less chance of the lighter gasses escaping if they can’t reach the seals?

Also in BJ popper the depth of the chamber looked like it was about 1.75 inches below the piston and he had only about 1.75 inches of travel marked on the shaft. So maybe it was closer to a 1 to 2 ratio of expansion.

element 119


Axil

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1177, on December 27th, 2012, 10:42 PM »Last edited on December 27th, 2012, 11:54 PM by Axil
Quote
“The recombination of atomic hydrogen to diatomic hydrogen is notoriously exothermic. Why, then, is it reported that the gas temperature rises little if at all”
The fact that Russ has seen no heat produced by the spark discharge in hydrogen speaks to the fact that no atomic hydrogen is produced by the spark discharge.   This is a clue to what is going on inside the gas medium.

This insightful experimental observation supports the theory that accelerating plasmoid movement toward the head of the cylinder is the primary source of the power generated by the Papp reaction. This also means that no plasma is produced because the production of hydrogen plasma will also produce heat.

If the plasmoid is the active power producing structure in the Papp engine, then it can concentrate a large number of electrons is high amperage circulating current flow concentrations at and around the outer surface of the plasmoid.

As the plasmoid moves through the uncharged dialectic gaseous medium(UDGM), The plasmoid must generate large numbers of negative charged clusters of gas atoms in the thin boundary zone between the plasmoids negative charged current layer and the UDGM.

It is this contrail of residual negatively charged gas clusters that are left in the wake of the plasmoids passage that must be neutralized before the start of the next cycle can begin. This process of charge neutralization is how the feedback current is generated.

 

The magnitude of this feedback current might be greater than the current that produced the spark discharge under certain noble gas mixtures.

This increase in current can be one of the contributors to over unity power generation in the Papp reaction.
Quote
Suppose the plug that Dr Feynman pulled from the wall operated the cylinder coils (the engine still ran, so not all of the support electronics were plugged in). Papp got very nervous - he knew that it could explode soon, and violently - and it did.
 
Put the condensed gas in an enclosed cylinder without the means to expand (no piston) and without the magnetic coils to cause the contraction - well that spells BOMB, see US3680431.
This positive increase in current  may also be the reason why the Papp engine exploded during the R. Feynman demo when an unchecked positive feedback current loop was formed between the various cylinders when the circuit that controlled the current feed to these cylinders was disabled.

Because of this positive current feedback, ever increasing spark discharge currents having been directly supported by the feedback current from other various cylinders produced a series of plasmoids of increasing strength. It was this uncontrolled current loop that eventually culminated in an explosive disintegration of the Papp engine after a few moments of unregulated operation when the control circuit was disabled after R. Feynman pulled the plug to the control unit.

The relatively long delay in the time between the removal of the plug by Feynman and the onset of piston failure and its  exposition through the wall of the engine points to a slow buildup in the strength of the plasmoid loop and not a exposition caused by a compression of gas.

Cross posted in part on vortex

FaradayEZ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1178, on December 28th, 2012, 06:18 AM »

What did Josef Papp do with the gasmixture to get it working with less energy input?

If Bob still has a Papp treated mixture in this sense, then he needs not much input energy. (what did Papp use himself on the input of the engine?)

There the power output is/was greater then the power input.
Without this principal, no Papp engine.

If the gas runs out after months..then there is some reaction, some element changes, maybe a couple of atoms at a stroke, but it is depleating in some way.

So something inside is used, is transformed. And thinking of the length of operating on 1 gas input, it may well be a gas molecule at a stroke per time.

I mean, how many strokes made papps engine in 10.000 hours? Compare that with the amount of molecule (maybe per sort of gas) that he put in. Or maybe compare it with his special treatment with chlorine/water? Or with an amount of ionized particals, how many could it be and what percentage of the whole do we see then? If it is 35% then should we look more into the Helium?

If we had a input amount of Bob's gas, and we would run it in the Russ popper, would we be able, after a long time of firing, to find what the change in molecular composition becomes? What's the difference between new and old mixture

And if we let another (not papps special) mixture get old, what do we see that gets depleated? And does that hold a clue on what Papp did to his mixtures?

To get them last longer and to get the main process working easier and stronger, with less input and more output.









freethisone

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1179, on December 28th, 2012, 06:42 AM »
Quote from Axil on December 27th, 2012, 10:42 PM
Quote
“The recombination of atomic hydrogen to diatomic hydrogen is notoriously exothermic. Why, then, is it reported that the gas temperature rises little if at all”
The fact that Russ has seen no heat produced by the spark discharge in hydrogen speaks to the fact that no atomic hydrogen is produced by the spark discharge.   This is a clue to what is going on inside the gas medium.

This insightful experimental observation supports the theory that accelerating plasmoid movement toward the head of the cylinder is the primary source of the power generated by the Papp reaction. This also means that no plasma is produced because the production of hydrogen plasma will also produce heat.

If the plasmoid is the active power producing structure in the Papp engine, then it can concentrate a large number of electrons is high amperage circulating current flow concentrations at and around the outer surface of the plasmoid.

As the plasmoid moves through the uncharged dialectic gaseous medium(UDGM), The plasmoid must generate large numbers of negative charged clusters of gas atoms in the thin boundary zone between the plasmoids negative charged current layer and the UDGM.

It is this contrail of residual negatively charged gas clusters that are left in the wake of the plasmoids passage that must be neutralized before the start of the next cycle can begin. This process of charge neutralization is how the feedback current is generated.

 

The magnitude of this feedback current might be greater than the current that produced the spark discharge under certain noble gas mixtures.

This increase in current can be one of the contributors to over unity power generation in the Papp reaction.
Quote
Suppose the plug that Dr Feynman pulled from the wall operated the cylinder coils (the engine still ran, so not all of the support electronics were plugged in). Papp got very nervous - he knew that it could explode soon, and violently - and it did.
 
Put the condensed gas in an enclosed cylinder without the means to expand (no piston) and without the magnetic coils to cause the contraction - well that spells BOMB, see US3680431.
This positive increase in current  may also be the reason why the Papp engine exploded during the R. Feynman demo when an unchecked positive feedback current loop was formed between the various cylinders when the circuit that controlled the current feed to these cylinders was disabled.

Because of this positive current feedback, ever increasing spark discharge currents having been directly supported by the feedback current from other various cylinders produced a series of plasmoids of increasing strength. It was this uncontrolled current loop that eventually culminated in an explosive disintegration of the Papp engine after a few moments of unregulated operation when the control circuit was disabled after R. Feynman pulled the plug to the control unit.

The relatively long delay in the time between the removal of the plug by Feynman and the onset of piston failure and its  exposition through the wall of the engine points to a slow buildup in the strength of the plasmoid loop and not a exposition caused by a compression of gas.

Cross posted in part on vortex
think of it this way, a build up in the energy results in a huge amount of energy left over, and it has no place to go.

most of the time it may get feeded back as a huge spike causing damage to circuits, and components.

by increasing voltages, i have a continual increasing potential.
the water is the resistor.

a single pole neg, or positive polarity must be used, or tried.

you see i been saying this for a wile. increasing voltage.

but the ac dc bias can be overcome. Improved, and utilized.

this is my original idea, and you can try.

Chan

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1180, on December 29th, 2012, 03:21 AM »
Russ,

Please consider applying for a patent. Here is reference
help from a hands on experimenter who still bears the
scars of a hydrogen explosion. https://deighta.com/
Simple view of your inventive genius is introducing
hydrogen into a torroid cavity within a piston and cylinder.

Said hydrogen is activated by way of a high voltage AC
spark within the chamber.

Next, unleashing a very high quantity of electrons into the
activated hydrogen using a DC discharge of high capacity
capicitors at voltages under 500 v to take advantage of
the conductivity of the activated hydrogen.

Papp patents reduced to simple view are identical except
he used water as core reactant. Your genius was to use
hydrogen, a far more convenient reactant, because it is a
gas, unaffected by gravity as far as possible engine
orientations.

You have already reduced your invention to practice. Papp
did it and went on to patent the explosive devise. Perhaps
it would be a natural extension of your work.

Again, congratulations to you and your discovery. Do not
be dismayed by the fog which is created mostly by others
to hide your basic invention. Relagate Nobel gasses, coils,
circuits, cylinder material, measurements, calorimeters
and ad nauseam to your team of followers for future study.

Chan


Jeff Nading

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1181, on December 29th, 2012, 04:40 AM »
Quote from Chan on December 29th, 2012, 03:21 AM
Russ,

Please consider applying for a patent. Here is reference
help from a hands on experimenter who still bears the
scars of a hydrogen explosion. https://deighta.com/
Simple view of your inventive genius is introducing
hydrogen into a torroid cavity within a piston and cylinder.

Said hydrogen is activated by way of a high voltage AC
spark within the chamber.

Next, unleashing a very high quantity of electrons into the
activated hydrogen using a DC discharge of high capacity
capicitors at voltages under 500 v to take advantage of
the conductivity of the activated hydrogen.

Papp patents reduced to simple view are identical except
he used water as core reactant. Your genius was to use
hydrogen, a far more convenient reactant, because it is a
gas, unaffected by gravity as far as possible engine
orientations.

You have already reduced your invention to practice. Papp
did it and went on to patent the explosive devise. Perhaps
it would be a natural extension of your work.

Again, congratulations to you and your discovery. Do not
be dismayed by the fog which is created mostly by others
to hide your basic invention. Relagate Nobel gasses, coils,
circuits, cylinder material, measurements, calorimeters
and ad nauseam to your team of followers for future study.

Chan
Defenition of  ad nauseam:
If someone discusses something ad nauseam, they talk about it so much that it becomes very boring.:D

Babble

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1182, on December 29th, 2012, 10:08 AM »
Russ, I don't see anything worth patenting at this point.  You do get some movement of a piston but the energy in appears much great than what comes out.  A proper patent can cost a lot of money (using an attorney) and there is a maintenance fee so make sure you have a working engine before ever thinking of this route.  I think you wanted this to be open source anyway which would not use a patent.  KC has done a lot of work but I still see nothing of a running engine here.  Just a lot of theory thrown about.  Janne appears to be working on it too.  

k c dias

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1183, on December 29th, 2012, 11:58 AM »Last edited on December 29th, 2012, 12:08 PM by k c dias
Quote from Babble on December 29th, 2012, 10:08 AM
Russ, I don't see anything worth patenting at this point.  You do get some movement of a piston but the energy in appears much great than what comes out.  A proper patent can cost a lot of money (using an attorney) and there is a maintenance fee so make sure you have a working engine before ever thinking of this route.  I think you wanted this to be open source anyway which would not use a patent.  KC has done a lot of work but I still see nothing of a running engine here.  Just a lot of theory thrown about.  Janne appears to be working on it too.
We all (I hope I speak for most of the members here) want open source aka public disclosure.  If, for example, I have a totally new invention (and I don't) and I disclose it publicly, it starts a clock.  I then have exactly a one year period to get a patent application filed, otherwise it truly becomes public domain.  If Mr. X reads what I disclosed, and decides that he wants to patent it, he can't. He can try, but the patent search not only looks at issued patents and applications, but also published documents.  Also, by simply making the application, he would be committing perjury.  If, by chance, he was thinking of the same exact thing, he would need to show proof that he had actually thought of it first (working papers in a bound journal, periodically reviewed and signed by at least one independent witness) or an actual patent application that predates the public disclosure.  This is to the best of my knowledge, I'm not an attorney, please consult your own counsel on these matters.

And a link: http://www.grad.wisc.edu/research/ip/publicdisclosure.html

kcd


Axil

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1184, on December 29th, 2012, 12:13 PM »Last edited on December 29th, 2012, 12:15 PM by Axil
A simplified experiment is the most elegant, the most understandable, and the most convincing.

Abd ul-Rahman Lomax is wise to suggest that the pressure of air compression by the piston in the popper is best removed as an experimental variable.

His astute suggestion about the addition of weight resistive to piston movement in a vertical direction of proper design can greatly simplify the over unity energy experiment for the popper.

So sorry please excuse me, why did I not see this wisdom to begin with?

See this Khan lecture to see the theory behind the simplest experiment for over unity energy determination that can be executed.

http://www.khanacademy.org/science/physics/mechanics/v/work-and-energy--part-2


The height that the weighted piston travels upward to a stop determines the output energy of the popper.

Unavoidably, the energy associated with the feedback current must be determined and added to the energy imparted to the piston.

This experimental approach must be the simplest and cheapest one that can be run to prove over unity energy production.

This experiment should be the one first run to evaluate the popper.

Cross posted on vortex

Jeff Nading

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1185, on December 29th, 2012, 12:38 PM »
Quote from k c dias on December 29th, 2012, 11:58 AM
Quote from Babble on December 29th, 2012, 10:08 AM
Russ, I don't see anything worth patenting at this point.  You do get some movement of a piston but the energy in appears much great than what comes out.  A proper patent can cost a lot of money (using an attorney) and there is a maintenance fee so make sure you have a working engine before ever thinking of this route.  I think you wanted this to be open source anyway which would not use a patent.  KC has done a lot of work but I still see nothing of a running engine here.  Just a lot of theory thrown about.  Janne appears to be working on it too.
We all (I hope I speak for most of the members here) want open source aka public disclosure.  If, for example, I have a totally new invention (and I don't) and I disclose it publicly, it starts a clock.  I then have exactly a one year period to get a patent application filed, otherwise it truly becomes public domain.  If Mr. X reads what I disclosed, and decides that he wants to patent it, he can't. He can try, but the patent search not only looks at issued patents and applications, but also published documents.  Also, by simply making the application, he would be committing perjury.  If, by chance, he was thinking of the same exact thing, he would need to show proof that he had actually thought of it first (working papers in a bound journal, periodically reviewed and signed by at least one independent witness) or an actual patent application that predates the public disclosure.  This is to the best of my knowledge, I'm not an attorney, please consult your own counsel on these matters.

And a link: http://www.grad.wisc.edu/research/ip/publicdisclosure.html

kcd
Yes, I think this speaks for most of us here as members, open source. Just make sure it's documented like you say. Thanks.:D

Jeff Nading

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1186, on December 29th, 2012, 12:42 PM »
Quote from Axil on December 29th, 2012, 12:13 PM
A simplified experiment is the most elegant, the most understandable, and the most convincing.

Abd ul-Rahman Lomax is wise to suggest that the pressure of air compression by the piston in the popper is best removed as an experimental variable.

His astute suggestion about the addition of weight resistive to piston movement in a vertical direction of proper design can greatly simplify the over unity energy experiment for the popper.

So sorry please excuse me, why did I not see this wisdom to begin with?

See this Khan lecture to see the theory behind the simplest experiment for over unity energy determination that can be executed.

http://www.khanacademy.org/science/physics/mechanics/v/work-and-energy--part-2


The height that the weighted piston travels upward to a stop determines the output energy of the popper.

Unavoidably, the energy associated with the feedback current must be determined and added to the energy imparted to the piston.

This experimental approach must be the simplest and cheapest one that can be run to prove over unity energy production.

This experiment should be the one first run to evaluate the popper.

Cross posted on vortex
Great suggestion.:D

Chan

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1187, on December 29th, 2012, 01:39 PM »
Russ,

Re: Patent
1.  Try electronic. It is quite easy and inexpensive.
2.  Turn all anxieties other people have over to God.
3.   Just elaborate on the simple view I pointed out
as the genius of your discovery.
4.  Keep Claims broad and simple to begin with. Ex:
Claim 1. A device consisting of a piston and cylinder such
that when hydrogen is introduced into the cavity between
the piston and cylinder head, an expansion of the cavity
moves the piston against an apposing force resulting in
work performed. Said expansion is caused by electrodes
sealed within the chamber. The expansion is caused by a
sequence, the first of which is activation of the hydrogen
gas through discharge of a high voltage pulsating spark.
The activated hydrogen is then exploded by discharge of
very large amperage current through the activated hydrogen.
The voltage driving this current can be as low as under
500 v depending on gap size.

Remember my Mom's pitcher pump, Axil? Also TinMan had
a wooden mockup ready to attach to the Russ Popper.

The second claim should bring in volume collapse and
a coil around cylinder to collect more work.

Trust completely in God. As one headed toward 90, it
works for me. God takes care of those who give themselves
to Him. God has at times heaped terrible vengence on those
who tried to do harm to me.

Chan
.

Jeff Nading

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1188, on December 29th, 2012, 01:46 PM »
Quote from Chan on December 29th, 2012, 01:39 PM
Russ,

Re: Patent
1.  Try electronic. It is quite easy and inexpensive.
2.  Turn all anxieties other people have over to God.
3.   Just elaborate on the simple view I pointed out
as the genius of your discovery.
4.  Keep Claims broad and simple to begin with. Ex:
Claim 1. A device consisting of a piston and cylinder such
that when hydrogen is introduced into the cavity between
the piston and cylinder head, an expansion of the cavity
moves the piston against an apposing force resulting in
work performed. Said expansion is caused by electrodes
sealed within the chamber. The expansion is caused by a
sequence, the first of which is activation of the hydrogen
gas through discharge of a high voltage pulsating spark.
The activated hydrogen is then exploded by discharge of
very large amperage current through the activated hydrogen.
The voltage driving this current can be as low as under
500 v depending on gap size.

Remember my Mom's pitcher pump, Axil? Also TinMan had
a wooden mockup ready to attach to the Russ Popper.

The second claim should bring in volume collapse and
a coil around cylinder to collect more work.

Trust completely in God. As one headed toward 90, it
works for me. God takes care of those who give themselves
to Him. God has at times heaped terrible vengence on those
who tried to do harm to me.

Chan
.
None of us can really speak for Russ. So, Russ, it's in your court now, what say you?:D

element 119

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1189, on December 29th, 2012, 01:55 PM »
While I understand many people enjoy the challenge and sense of accomplishment in building their own circuits and so on, I think I found a different route for those not so inclined.

JR made a big deal out of using 4 COP to get about 400 K volts. But it appears high volts by them self are not enough to make a popper or engine work. I’m not sure how much it would cost or how much work would go into making his setup but… I think there may be an easier and cheaper way.

I checked out stun guns and for about $18.00 you can get a 7.8 million volts stunner. These can jump a gap of about 2 inches.

Use wires connected to the stun gun electrodes and run them to the popper chamber and maybe modify the trigger setup. And add the dc volts for the extra pop.

So what does anyone think? Could this be a good cheap alternative?

What would be the drawbacks of using this setup?

element 119

Chan

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1190, on December 29th, 2012, 02:14 PM »
element 119
Great suggestion. Please get one and try it in a glass of
water. Stay behind barrier. Report anything unusual. Next,
buy clear plastic hose at Home Depot plumbing. Insert two
needles. Attach to Stun. Run propane and all other gasses
through the tube. Report Stun results here. Now try all
kinds of liquids. Next, different salts dissolved in liquids.
Now metal powders suspended in liquids.

I think you are on to something. May God quide you toward
discoveries.

Chan

Jeff Nading

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1191, on December 29th, 2012, 02:27 PM »
Quote from element 119 on December 29th, 2012, 01:55 PM
While I understand many people enjoy the challenge and sense of accomplishment in building their own circuits and so on, I think I found a different route for those not so inclined.

JR made a big deal out of using 4 COP to get about 400 K volts. But it appears high volts by them self are not enough to make a popper or engine work. I’m not sure how much it would cost or how much work would go into making his setup but… I think there may be an easier and cheaper way.

I checked out stun guns and for about $18.00 you can get a 7.8 million volts stunner. These can jump a gap of about 2 inches.

Use wires connected to the stun gun electrodes and run them to the popper chamber and maybe modify the trigger setup. And add the dc volts for the extra pop.

So what does anyone think? Could this be a good cheap alternative?

What would be the drawbacks of using this setup?

element 119
It would be worth a try element 119, but you sure wouldn't want any HV feed back from the pop of the popper.:D

FaradayEZ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1192, on December 29th, 2012, 02:34 PM »Last edited on December 29th, 2012, 02:47 PM by FaradayEZ
Quote from Axil on December 29th, 2012, 12:13 PM
A simplified experiment is the most elegant, the most understandable, and the most convincing.

The height that the weighted piston travels upward to a stop determines the output energy of the popper.

Unavoidably, the energy associated with the feedback current must be determined and added to the energy imparted to the piston.
This is what Russ already has, a piston with weight and measuring the height.
But it has to be free to move and not compress air between rodside piston and top off the cylinder. And this calculation is one of the first on the testsheet, the input output tests.

And also, beside a (yet to be found/captured by Russ) feedbackpuls, also the energy of the downward movement of the piston should be measured and added in.

But by measure of thumb, this whole calculation has sort of been done and in Russ case did not point towards overunity yet.

---------------
(read slowly)

So again that's why i ask what is the diff with the special pappmix. I mean, look at the thing that worked.

If Bob still has such mix, as he states in his video..then the proof of that is in a calculation of what he shows us. He pushes a resistance for a distance, it has an exelleration downwards i.e. extra force beside gravity, and he has a motor running some reps from the feedbackcurrent.

We have to answer the question if Bob uses the Pappmixture, and if so; if it is still potent; and if so..we know it has some extra elements in it. Because that's the only thing that can stay the same over a years period and more. (agreed?)

So the question becomes; can we calculate if his popper video shows overunity or is much nearer to it?
Did Bob tell us, how much input he uses? Or must we estimate? The way Bob discribes the test, he boosts about the weight and force of the pop, so we should be able to calculate a decent amount of energy. But if he is not reaching overunity, then his show doesn't proove papp, it only shows making a plasma reaction and using too much electricity for it to be interesting.

If we can see a difference between Russ and Bob, then we know that a Papp special mix has an extra something in it. Its not only ionised, cause that will linger off. There must be a special something, a element or two extra in the mixture, that stays in it for years...!!

This will bring us closer to the secret of the Papp engine, just by using common sense before ellaborate theories. Let those be done on the proof off concept, and thus far the proof doesn't point to overunity, it shows an reaction and collapse with an overuse of electricity. (still worthy of theorising on, but the need for better proof, and the way towards it, also can be done by reasoning on the facts or closeby assumptions) And that road i am calling for here.

Even if we use Hydrogen and let it pop for a day..let it pop until the popp wears out
And then start looking into the remaining gas, it will give us a clue about what is effectively the change in matter, in mixture, between popping a bit and popping hardly anymore.

And that is crusial knowledge. Who knows here what it will cost if we send a sample of used gas towards a company that could make a gaschromatify?

The thing that gets depleated is a big clue on what the poppreaction needs..! Knowing that, we can think about what type of treatment Papp gave the mixture to make it special. And i take a bet that he added molecules, because the mixture can stay special over years.

So i call for prolonged gas tests and 1 or two sample sendings.

Hard science first sticks to what we know?








































Jeff Nading

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1194, on December 29th, 2012, 02:46 PM »
Quote from FaradayEZ on December 29th, 2012, 02:34 PM
Quote from Axil on December 29th, 2012, 12:13 PM
A simplified experiment is the most elegant, the most understandable, and the most convincing.

The height that the weighted piston travels upward to a stop determines the output energy of the popper.

Unavoidably, the energy associated with the feedback current must be determined and added to the energy imparted to the piston.
This is what Russ already has, a piston with weight and measuring the height.
But it has to be free to move and not compress air between rodside piston and top off the cylinder. And this calculation is one of the first on the testsheet, the input output tests.

And also, beside a (yet to be found/captured by Russ) feedbackpuls, also the energy of the downward movement of the piston should be measured and added in.

But by measure of thumb, this whole calculation has sort of been done and in Russ case did not point towards overunity yet.

---------------
(read slowly)

So again that's why i ask what is the diff with the special pappmix. I mean, look at the thing that worked.

If Bob still has such mix, as he states in his video..then the proof of that is in a calculation of what he shows us. He pushes a resistance for a distance, it has an exelleration downwards i.e. extra force beside gravity, and he has a motor running some reps from the feedbackcurrent.

We have to answer the question if Bob uses the Pappmixture, and if so; if it is still potent; and if so..we know it has some extra elements in it. Because that's the only thing that can stay the same over a years period and more.

So the question becomes; can we calculate if his popper video shows overunity or is much nearer to it?
Did Bob tell us, how much input he uses? Or must we estimate? The way Bob discribes the test, he boosts about the weight and force of the pop, so we should be able to calculate a decent amount of energy. But if he is not reaching overunity, then his show doesn't proove papp, it only shows making a plasma reaction and using too much electricity for it to be interesting.

If we can see a difference between Russ and Bob, then we know that a Papp special mix has an extra something in it. Its not only ionised, cause that will linger off. There must be a special something, a element or two extra in the mixture, that stays in it for years...!!

This will bring us closer to the secret of the Papp engine, just by using common sense before ellaborate theories. Let those be done on the proof off concept, and thus far the proof doesn't point to overunity, it shows an reaction and collapse with an overuse of electricity. (still worthy of theorising on, but the need for better proof, and the way towards it, also can be done by reasoning on the facts or closeby assumptions) And that road i am calling for here.

Even if we use Hydrogen and let it pop for a day..let it pop until the popp wears out
And then start looking into the remaining gas, it will give us a clue about what is effectively the change in matter, in mixture, between popping a bit and popping hardly anymore.

And that is crusial knowledge. Who knows here what it will cost if we send a sample of used gas towards a company that could make a gaschromatify?

The thing that gets depleated is a big clue on what the poppreaction needs..! Knowing that, we can think about what type of treatment Papp gave the mixture to make it special. And i take a bet that he added molecules, because the mixture can stay special over years.

So i call for prolonged gas tests and 1 or two sample sendings.

Hard science first sticks to what we know?
I agree EZ, good thoughts.:D


simonderricutt

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1196, on December 29th, 2012, 03:08 PM »
Element119 - good find on the stunner. Do you know whether this is a coil output or crystal/ceramic? At that voltage, there won't be any semiconductors in the output, so it should be proof against the back EMF from the electrodes.

Using it in the circuit may need a few turns of inductance in line with the capacitor bank to stop it just discharging into them rather than jumping the gap. Hopefully it's a very high frequency AC spark, and a few microhenries of thick wire may be enough - needs testing. Using a ferrite core for this would mean that when the current passes the core will saturate and the inline inductance go way down thus not limiting the main current passing.

EZ - good ideas. Unfortunately it seems Papp emptied his mixed bottle and the working motor a week or so before he died. No original Papp mix remains, so no-one knows what was actually in it, including Bob Rohner.

If it is nuclear energy in the gas that is being released, and we assume around 1MeV per reaction, then the 100hp 1 litre engine would run for around 16 hours before you needed to change the gas. Either there's a lot more energy being released or someone isn't telling the truth. My bet is the second....
Analysis of the used gases is critical to understanding what's happened and happening. I don't know where you'd ask, though. Probably not worth analysing the gases unless you can show over unity on the power output, since before that point we maybe aren't seeing the real Papp pop.

KC - that video has been on Bob Rohner's front page for a while. It actually shows a working motor Bob made fairly recently, obviously in test mode.

FaradayEZ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1197, on December 29th, 2012, 03:32 PM »Last edited on December 30th, 2012, 02:28 PM by FaradayEZ
Maybe Papp started off as we did?

He found he could do a pop on noble gas.
He found that it took too much energy to be a worthwhile invention.
So he popped it till it ran out of steam.
He took the residu to a chemist.
He found particals he had not put in it.
He theorized and saw what was depleating and what was extra.  (and then could make a chemist reaction description of it)
Then he tried an extra compound in it, something that would make the pop into a potent chainreaction.
He later tested the potency in california (the canon that blew to pieces)

This was too much for an engine.
He had to slow down the chainreaction into a molecuul at a time reaction.
So he calculated what the eV amount was from the prime reaction.
So he then knew he could screw back the amount of electricity input towards something that only uses one or two molecules per stroke.

With the buckets he then kept the tantillising up for the particals near the ignition arc. So as to further minimize the amount of input and also to make the popps more reliable, more molecules ready near the arc for the transition.

In this story, it is also understandable that when the amount of joules are not precisely regulated anymore..this popping goes into a chainreaction that releases too much energy for an engine.  (The Feynman blowup)

So now we know..lol

Whats our next case dear Watson? ;)









Axil

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1198, on December 29th, 2012, 05:17 PM »
Quote from FaradayEZ on December 29th, 2012, 03:32 PM
Maybe Papp started off as we did?

He found he could do a pop on noble gas.
He found that it took too much energy to be a worthwhile invention.
So he popped it till it ran out of steam.
He took the residu to a chemist.
He found particals he had not put in it.
He theorized and saw what was depleating and what was extra.  (and then could make a chemist reaction description of it)
Then he tried an extra compound in it, something that would make the pop into a potent chainreaction.
He later tested the potency in california

This was too much for an engine.
He had to slow down the chainreaction into a molecuul at a time reaction.
So he calculated what the eV amount was from the prime reaction.
So he then knew he could screw back the amount of electricity input towards something that only uses one or two molecules per stroke.

With the buckets he then kept the tantillising up for the particals near the ignition arc. So as to further minimize the amount of input and also to make the popps more reliable, more molecules ready near the arc for the transition.

In this story, it is also understandable that when the amount of joules are not precisely regulated anymore..this popping goes into a chainreaction that releases too much energy for an engine.  (The fleischmann blowup)

So now we know..lol

Whats our next case dear Watson? ;)
The progression of the Papp technology is very complicated.

My current understanding about the timeline of Papp technology development tells me that Papp showed Feynman an engine that used chlorinated water as the reactive medium.

The Feynman demo occured in the 1960s, the time covered by the first Papp patent.  The noble gas combo we are trying to duplicate was developed in the 1980s, the time covered by the second Papp patent.



FaradayEZ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #1199, on December 30th, 2012, 06:19 AM »Last edited on December 30th, 2012, 06:28 AM by FaradayEZ
60's or 80's.... you still need a way to get there... to either one that worked.. (if there are two ways that worked, as you seem to suppose)

But more important, what are the properties of chlorinated water that are useful for the reactions?
How did it function and was there the cascade danger?

And can we put something of this into the testsheets?