Have you guys achieved proof of concept for a small motor scooter or equivalent? What device is the intended recipient of this type of engine? I haven't read all 58 pages of posts but this concept seems quite interesting enough to me.
KC
i read your post about the updated MAIN MCU for 2-4 cylinders.
Just wondering how the second set of coils , and if 4 cylinders fourth set of coils are going to be energized?
As i can see the coils are only activated one time per revolution, the secod set should be activated at 180 degrees later rigth?
Regards /Janne Ström
Will not hear from me about this whole boondogle. Just wanted to say I am glad someone is keeping ASM alive!!!!Quote from k c dias on December 15th, 2012, 02:47 PM The .asm files provided can be viewed and edited within the MPLAB IDE software available from Microchip (free download)
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KC Dias
Thanks for publishing your design. It helps us in how we do our own design and is valuable. Would love to look at your code, so I hope you publish.
I don't plan to build until I know a bit more about the gas, but your work gives me a head start
Thanks
Bob
kcd - no need to apologise for using too many micros. At this stage, being able to change the odd bits of code in just one is such a major benefit that it's a good design decision. The micros are getting to be cheaper than other ways of doing the same job, as well, and get cheaper by the dozen. With this sort of real-time design too, assembler is really the only way to go, since you don't know the exact timing of a C routine unless you look at the assembly code it produces, and even then it's going to probably take more cycles to do the same job.
Since you're going straight into a motor without doing the popper first, it's going to be a bit more difficult to extract what's happening from the measurements, but hopefully you'll be able to use Russ's data to sort things out. With the Inteligentry motor again not being seen to run, I'm even less sanguine about John Rohner's design. In fact I think he's never had one working with measured power out greater than power in. From the Papp documents we know it's possible, so we just need to find the correct way.
KC
Thanks for clearing that up.
I am, and im sure there are others at this forum ,appreciate your work with this controller.
Would be great to have 2 different MCU's , one with "regular firing" of the coils and the other that "ends with a buzz"
That way it would be simpe to just change the MCU to do tests with different "firing modes"
If you find the time to write the code for that second MCU, i for one would be really happy to download it.
Lets see if i have understood this:
its already programmed in the code for all the signals , reversed 180 degrees on pin3.
so for the "right side" of the engine i use pin 2 and pin 5.
for the "left side" i use pin 3 and pin 5.
i need to copy the "right side" layout for U3,U4,U5 and U6 and use the same circuit for the "left side" with 4 new PIC12F683's , U7,U8,U9 ans U10 ?
Again, thanks for the free work, really appreciated.
/Janne Ström
NEW FILES ADDED!!
26 Dec 2012 - New files!! Schematic and board layout for the NGE controller Main Board, configurable for 1, 2, or 4 cylinders. Download free program to view, modify, and order printed circuit boards:
http://www.expresspcb.com/expresspcbhtm/Download.htm
(The one Russ suggested - Thanks Russ - Great program!!)
Files are in the projects section:
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=822&pid=9919#pid9919
Snapshots of schematic and board below.
The IGBT Boards are still a work in progress. The main board is designed to output timing pulses for two or four cylinders. The 40 pin connectors (J3 and J4) are ribbon cable connections to the IGBT Boards. The 40 conductor cable is split into 2 each 20 conductor cables that then go to 2 IGBT boards. Each IGBT Board will be configurable as a 'cyl0', or 'cyl180', and also as HV ignition coil driver, or RF/TCC/BCC driver. Each IGBT Board also will have a prototyping area for alternate configurations, if desired. Perhaps I should sketch out the ribbon cable arrangement to show the fanout to the IGBT Boards..
KCD
Well kcd u jagged up my mind... very important point you made...
I always thought that if BR setup recovered power using other two electrodes
and also got a strong pop without using coils on cylinder then
why we need the coils?????? hmmmm....
about testing ur point , it can be simple or it can be complex,
but to start with , just overfill the cylinder with gas mixture until piston rises to
some level, and then energies the coil around the cylinder to see any contraction
of the gas mix
in case of failure different mixtures other than listed in patent would be a challenge :huh:
I've been thinking again...
What if..
What if we are all looking at this noble gas thing all wrong. Every one, who has ever attempted to make this thing work over the past 30 plus years, and everyone currently working on the thing - including BR and JR - all looking at it wrong...
We are all looking at making some sort of gas mixture expand, ie. from normal to expanded.
Suppose that's not how it works. There is another possibility. Suppose we should be looking to make some sort of gas mixture contract, a normal mixture, that after processing collapses to a smaller volume. The atoms cluster together - not a molecular bond, that would take too much energy to disassociate - but some sort of bond like Axil described when he was talking about super-atoms.
Imagine, for a moment, that when the gas mixture is properly processed, it shrinks to a much smaller volume - for what ever reason - the atoms cluster together...
Then in the engine, the event at TDC (voltage discharge of some sort) breaks the weak bonds, with a massive and almost instantaneous expansion in volume. As the gas expands (as allowed in the engine - not allowed in the pipe bomb) under the influence of a magnetic field (Papp had 3 coils - rather large with many turns) then it contracts back to its condensed state to start the cycle over again.
Suppose the plug that Dr Feynman pulled from the wall operated the cylinder coils (the engine still ran, so not all of the support electronics were plugged in). Papp got very nervous - he knew that it could explode soon, and violently - and it did.
Put the condensed gas in an enclosed cylinder without the means to expand (no piston) and without the magnetic coils to cause the contraction - well that spells BOMB, see US3680431.
We can't believe anything JR says - he is faking it, doesn't have a clue how to make a nge engine run - he is doing research hoping to find the answer before his next public show or stockholders meeting.
But then there is this:
http://dimensionalbliss.com/2011/08/06/plasmergs-anomaly-defies-scientific-explanation/
In this video, if JR wasn't so caught up in his delusion of having an actual running engine, he would have realized that he had actually (re)discovered the critical missing link to the Papp process...
Just some food for thought - I got to get back to my day job...
kcd
Oh, just one more thing. So why didn't Papp disclose this little tidbit? Because the process is really freaking dangerous - loose control of the engine process and it explodes - violently!! Papp wanted to get his process accepted first, then inform folks of the negative attributes later.. Of course, I could be completely wrong...
What JR did for his Anomaly was use a Papp coil (larger than his popper coils) AC ionization (because he buzzes his coils instead of firing them conventionally - Papp uses 120 to 440 VAC) and, of course, a 5 gas mix.Quote from waqas148 on December 26th, 2012, 01:16 PM Well kcd u jagged up my mind... very important point you made...
I always thought that if BR setup recovered power using other two electrodes
and also got a strong pop without using coils on cylinder then
why we need the coils?????? hmmmm....
about testing ur point , it can be simple or it can be complex,
but to start with , just overfill the cylinder with gas mixture until piston rises to
some level, and then energies the coil around the cylinder to see any contraction
of the gas mix
in case of failure different mixtures other than listed in patent would be a challenge :huh:
I can conduct experiments with only a 3 gas mix at this time. But worth a try. Russ and Chuck, and possibly others, have access to the 5 gas mix. JR has already done it (if you can believe him) we just need others to confirm it - and make it public!
KCD
I think this is a big issue. A while back I asked if anyone could explain the collapse as I thought it important and I had no response. In Bob Rohners video he gets the spring misaligned which should not happen if its under constant pressure. The fact that it gets out of place implies that the piston is being sucked back faster than the spring can respond. This is as profound as the "Pop" itself. This has huge implications for a motor.
I think this needs to be carefully studied. and I would love to hear explanations on how the collapse works. I have no idea how a plasma can deionize that fast. It takes a tremendous amount of energy to ionize quickly an equally strong collapse makes no sense.
Just in case there is anyone still out there that believes that JR has a running engine, I have proof that he does not. It is quite simple. He states his gas mixture in his system expands five (5) times and that 5x expansion causes all that amazing torque, and horsepower...
Well five (5) times is not enough to do doodly squat!! Take a look at an off the shelf Internal Combustion Engine. The compression ratio is on the order of 10 to 1. Disconnect the coil, open the throttle butterfly, and crank the engine. How much torque and horsepower is the electric starter putting out to spin the engine? Ah, but its only working to compress the gas every other revolution, and the inteligentry engine has power on every stroke. Well I'll trade you 10:1 compression every other revolution for 5:1 on every rev. Think about it. A 5 to 1 pressure increase is not enough to much of anything.
Just some more food for thought...
KCD
I've been thinking again...
What if..
What if we are all looking at this noble gas thing all wrong. Every one, who has ever attempted to make this thing work over the past 30 plus years, and everyone currently working on the thing - including BR and JR - all looking at it wrong...
We are all looking at making some sort of gas mixture expand, ie. from normal to expanded.
Suppose that's not how it works. There is another possibility. Suppose we should be looking to make some sort of gas mixture contract, a normal mixture, that after processing collapses to a smaller volume. The atoms cluster together - not a molecular bond, that would take too much energy to disassociate - but some sort of bond like Axil described when he was talking about super-atoms.
Imagine, for a moment, that when the gas mixture is properly processed, it shrinks to a much smaller volume - for what ever reason - the atoms cluster together...
Then in the engine, the event at TDC (voltage discharge of some sort) breaks the weak bonds, with a massive and almost instantaneous expansion in volume. As the gas expands (as allowed in the engine - not allowed in the pipe bomb) under the influence of a magnetic field (Papp had 3 coils - rather large with many turns) then it contracts back to its condensed state to start the cycle over again.
Suppose the plug that Dr Feynman pulled from the wall operated the cylinder coils (the engine still ran, so not all of the support electronics were plugged in). Papp got very nervous - he knew that it could explode soon, and violently - and it did.
Put the condensed gas in an enclosed cylinder without the means to expand (no piston) and without the magnetic coils to cause the contraction - well that spells BOMB, see US3680431.
We can't believe anything JR says - he is faking it, doesn't have a clue how to make a nge engine run - he is doing research hoping to find the answer before his next public show or stockholders meeting.
But then there is this:
http://dimensionalbliss.com/2011/08/06/plasmergs-anomaly-defies-scientific-explanation/
In this video, if JR wasn't so caught up in his delusion of having an actual running engine, he would have realized that he had actually (re)discovered the critical missing link to the Papp process...
Just some food for thought - I got to get back to my day job...
kcd
Oh, just one more thing. So why didn't Papp disclose this little tidbit? Because the process is really freaking dangerous - loose control of the engine process and it explodes - violently!! Papp wanted to get his process accepted first, then inform folks of the negative attributes later.. Of course, I could be completely wrong...
What if we are all looking at this noble gas thing all wrong. Everyone, who has ever attempted to make this thing work over the past 30 plus years, and everyone currently working on the thing - including BR and JR - all looking at it wrong...
Suppose that's not how it works. There is another possibility. Suppose we should be looking to make some sort of gas mixture contract, a normal mixture that after processing collapses to a smaller volume. The atoms cluster together - not a molecular bond that would take too much energy to disassociate - but some sort of bond like Axil described when he was talking about super-atoms.
Imagine, for a moment, that when the gas mixture is properly processed, it shrinks to a much smaller volume - for whatever reason - the atoms cluster together...
Quote from k c dias on December 26th, 2012, 12:44 PM I've been thinking again...
What if..
What if we are all looking at this noble gas thing all wrong. Every one, who has ever attempted to make this thing work over the past 30 plus years, and everyone currently working on the thing - including BR and JR - all looking at it wrong...
We are all looking at making some sort of gas mixture expand, ie. from normal to expanded.
Suppose that's not how it works. There is another possibility. Suppose we should be looking to make some sort of gas mixture contract, a normal mixture, that after processing collapses to a smaller volume. The atoms cluster together - not a molecular bond, that would take too much energy to disassociate - but some sort of bond like Axil described when he was talking about super-atoms.
Imagine, for a moment, that when the gas mixture is properly processed, it shrinks to a much smaller volume - for what ever reason - the atoms cluster together...
Then in the engine, the event at TDC (voltage discharge of some sort) breaks the weak bonds, with a massive and almost instantaneous expansion in volume. As the gas expands (as allowed in the engine - not allowed in the pipe bomb) under the influence of a magnetic field (Papp had 3 coils - rather large with many turns) then it contracts back to its condensed state to start the cycle over again.
Suppose the plug that Dr Feynman pulled from the wall operated the cylinder coils (the engine still ran, so not all of the support electronics were plugged in). Papp got very nervous - he knew that it could explode soon, and violently - and it did.
Put the condensed gas in an enclosed cylinder without the means to expand (no piston) and without the magnetic coils to cause the contraction - well that spells BOMB, see US3680431.
We can't believe anything JR says - he is faking it, doesn't have a clue how to make a nge engine run - he is doing research hoping to find the answer before his next public show or stockholders meeting.
But then there is this:
http://dimensionalbliss.com/2011/08/06/plasmergs-anomaly-defies-scientific-explanation/
In this video, if JR wasn't so caught up in his delusion of having an actual running engine, he would have realized that he had actually (re)discovered the critical missing link to the Papp process...
Just some food for thought - I got to get back to my day job...
kcd
Oh, just one more thing. So why didn't Papp disclose this little tidbit? Because the process is really freaking dangerous - loose control of the engine process and it explodes - violently!! Papp wanted to get his process accepted first, then inform folks of the negative attributes later.. Of course, I could be completely wrong...It is true that the Papp process is a cycle in which expansion and contraction of the noble gas mix is occurring. To understand the Papp process, we must understand both the contraction phase of the Papp cycle as well as the expansion phase.Quote What if we are all looking at this noble gas thing all wrong. Everyone, who has ever attempted to make this thing work over the past 30 plus years, and everyone currently working on the thing - including BR and JR - all looking at it wrong...
If the contraction phase of the current cycle is not successfully engineered, then the expansion phase of the next cycle will not be successful.
The noble gas mix must get back to the same quiescent state after each cycle is completed.
I believe that this quiescent state is characterized as an “uncharged dialectic initial condition”.I believe that power is produced in both the contraction phase as well as the expansion phase of the Papp cycle.Quote Suppose that's not how it works. There is another possibility. Suppose we should be looking to make some sort of gas mixture contract, a normal mixture that after processing collapses to a smaller volume. The atoms cluster together - not a molecular bond that would take too much energy to disassociate - but some sort of bond like Axil described when he was talking about super-atoms.
Imagine, for a moment, that when the gas mixture is properly processed, it shrinks to a much smaller volume - for whatever reason - the atoms cluster together...
So far, what Russ has showed us is just the power produced by the expansion phase of the cycle. He has not yet engineered the controls for the contraction phase of the Papp cycle.
When Russ adds that control logic for the contraction phase of the Papp cycle, the power produced will double, the cycle will be repeatable and in a rapidly cyclic fashion.
To reiterate at this juncture, Russ has shown us a “one off” expansion of the first half of the first cycle.
The question you might now ask is what controls the contraction of the noble gas mix. And how do we maximize the power produced by that contraction.
I believe that this contraction is controlled by rapidly draining the charge injected into the noble gas mix by the spark discharge.
This charge is removed by the feedback current.
If you remember, Russ first saw this current in action when his diodes blew out because his insolating spark gap was too small.
The charge that produces this current is what causes the green florescent glow of the helium gas.
This glow was seen is the "Christmas glass experiment" that Russ performed, if you remember.
Bob Rohner uses this current to run a small motor. And Papp used this feedback current to power the next cylinder in his engine.
The timing of the draining of the feedback current is how we can control the speed of the Papp cycle.
John Rohner does not think that the feedback current is important and does not drain it; this is a reason why I think John Rohner does not yet have a working Papp engine concept.