Quote from Lynx on December 5th, 2012, 09:37 AM

That ones funny.

Russ - firstly on the diode, pretty well anything would be fine. I normally use something like a 1N4148. It's maybe a fine point - most of the time it'll work fine without the extra diode.

If you find you need such a big cap in the edge detect, then the transition-time of your input signal is too slow. The standard 555 can pull 10mA fine, and stretches to 200mA with things moving a bit slower - see the data sheet at http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm555.pdf for details. The output transition time is around 100ns - should be fast enough to run a much smaller edge-trigger cap, since you're only loading the first 555 with around a milliamp up or down.

I suspect that on your Hall-effect device, the output transition was somewhat slower. If you want it quicker, then either buy one with a schmitt trigger on the output or put one in yourself (you can also use an extra 555 as a schmitt trigger, which is a bit sneaky but they are cheap). I'll draw a circuit for this if you want it.

Rather than use the old 555, I actually use the Micrel MIC1455 and 1457. These are surface-mount SOT23-5 devices, with better specs than the 555 for most things and need fewer components around them. The board gets much smaller, so less pick-up of the high electromagnetic fields you're going to have when the machine is running. For edge-detect, I'm using 100pF.

Russ Video update 19

Nice spark and circuit. The electronics i can't comment on, but i'm anxious to see this stuff working on the popper.

Is there also any news on dr. T ?

Quote from simonderricutt on December 5th, 2012, 10:04 AM

Russ - firstly on the diode, pretty well anything would be fine. I normally use something like a 1N4148. It's maybe a fine point - most of the time it'll work fine without the extra diode.

If you find you need such a big cap in the edge detect, then the transition-time of your input signal is too slow. The standard 555 can pull 10mA fine, and stretches to 200mA with things moving a bit slower - see the data sheet at http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm555.pdf for details. The output transition time is around 100ns - should be fast enough to run a much smaller edge-trigger cap, since you're only loading the first 555 with around a milliamp up or down.

I suspect that on your Hall-effect device, the output transition was somewhat slower. If you want it quicker, then either buy one with a schmitt trigger on the output or put one in yourself (you can also use an extra 555 as a schmitt trigger, which is a bit sneaky but they are cheap). I'll draw a circuit for this if you want it.

Rather than use the old 555, I actually use the Micrel MIC1455 and 1457. These are surface-mount SOT23-5 devices, with better specs than the 555 for most things and need fewer components around them. The board gets much smaller, so less pick-up of the high electromagnetic fields you're going to have when the machine is running. For edge-detect, I'm using 100pF.

ok thanks for the tips. also. can you post a schematic of your edge triggering circuit? i guess your using a diode?? that's where I'm confused.

thx ~Russ

Hello all.
Ive been looking to buy some COP's just like the ones John Rohner uses on his NGE. the Weapon X coils, same coils that was included in the "popper kit" displayed here. These coils are rated at 80-100k volts.
I Think they are a bit expensive and im looking for alternatives or cheaper ,used Weapon X coils.
Someone know where i could get my hands on 8 coils at a reasonable price?
Been looking at "Dragon fire" COP's but they are only rated at 42k volts.
Any idea what kind of energy that would be released in a "spark" ( 4 sparks at 100k volts) ?
Regards  Janne Ström

Russ - an excerpt from a circuit that uses an astable 555 to drive a monostable. This is from an LTspice simulation. I hope this helps. I built this circuit using the Micrel parts and it works fine.

Quote from woody0068 on December 5th, 2012, 12:56 PM

Hello all.
Ive been looking to buy some COP's just like the ones John Rohner uses on his NGE. the Weapon X coils, same coils that was included in the "popper kit" displayed here. These coils are rated at 80-100k volts.
I Think they are a bit expensive and im looking for alternatives or cheaper ,used Weapon X coils.
Someone know where i could get my hands on 8 coils at a reasonable price?
Been looking at "Dragon fire" COP's but they are only rated at 42k volts.
Any idea what kind of energy that would be released in a "spark" ( 4 sparks at 100k volts) ?
Regards  Janne Ström

Janne - may I respectfully suggest that you wait until after Dec 11th before deciding to use the same design as John Rohner? So far I know of nobody who admits to having seen his design working. At least if you try what Russ is doing you know what to expect.

Quote from simonderricutt on December 5th, 2012, 01:30 PM

Russ - an excerpt from a circuit that uses an astable 555 to drive a monostable. This is from an LTspice simulation. I hope this helps. I built this circuit using the Micrel parts and it works fine.

Quote from woody0068 on December 5th, 2012, 12:56 PM

Hello all.
Ive been looking to buy some COP's just like the ones John Rohner uses on his NGE. the Weapon X coils, same coils that was included in the "popper kit" displayed here. These coils are rated at 80-100k volts.
I Think they are a bit expensive and im looking for alternatives or cheaper ,used Weapon X coils.
Someone know where i could get my hands on 8 coils at a reasonable price?
Been looking at "Dragon fire" COP's but they are only rated at 42k volts.
Any idea what kind of energy that would be released in a "spark" ( 4 sparks at 100k volts) ?
Regards  Janne Ström

Janne - may I respectfully suggest that you wait until after Dec 11th before deciding to use the same design as John Rohner? So far I know of nobody who admits to having seen his design working. At least if you try what Russ is doing you know what to expect.

Maybe thats a good idea, i have big capacitors and some pneumatic cylinders so i could do some tests with the "papp timer tester" Circuit Russ built.
Wait for the PowerGen on the 11th and see what happens then.
Regards ,Janne Ström

Quote from Badger on December 4th, 2012, 06:11 AM

Quote from element 119 on December 4th, 2012, 02:23 AM

1 week to go (Dec. 11) for the supposed big unveiling of Inteligentry NGE motors at the Power-Gen show.

Sterling said he is not going, so I’m wondering if anyone in here is planning on going?

Some doubt has been raised that any working motors will be at the show!

element 119

I was considering going on my own dime just to see their booth, I'm hoping someone here can go and give some good feedback and maybe video.  

I have my doubts too... I mean, there's a million excuses like "the venue wouldn't allow it for safety reasons" or whatever.  I really hope they break through to mainstream, not for their benefit, but everyone else.  What's the best outcome of this show though?  Making national nightly news?

Hmmmmm, I just checked the Power-gen website because i wanted to see first hand myself, but when i looked up Inteligentry NGE motors, their not even registered to be there...hmmm , makes you wonder don't it?

Quote from ken black on December 6th, 2012, 09:33 AM

Hmmmmm, I just checked the Power-gen website because i wanted to see first hand myself, but when i looked up Inteligentry NGE motors, their not even registered to be there...hmmm , makes you wonder don't it?

Check for PTP Licensing, their licensing subcompany.  It's still there...

Quote from Badger on December 6th, 2012, 09:51 AM

Quote from ken black on December 6th, 2012, 09:33 AM

Hmmmmm, I just checked the Power-gen website because i wanted to see first hand myself, but when i looked up Inteligentry NGE motors, their not even registered to be there...hmmm , makes you wonder don't it?

Check for PTP Licensing, their licensing subcompany.  It's still there...

Yeah, found them.
attaching link for those who want to know
http://fp32.a2zinc.net/clients/fppennwell/events12/public/fphtml.aspx?eventid=178&AEID=129,172,170,171,176&IMID=170

Quote from woody0068 on December 6th, 2012, 10:21 AM

Quote from Badger on December 6th, 2012, 09:51 AM

Quote from ken black on December 6th, 2012, 09:33 AM

Hmmmmm, I just checked the Power-gen website because i wanted to see first hand myself, but when i looked up Inteligentry NGE motors, their not even registered to be there...hmmm , makes you wonder don't it?

Check for PTP Licensing, their licensing subcompany.  It's still there...

Yeah, found them.
attaching link for those who want to know
http://fp32.a2zinc.net/clients/fppennwell/events12/public/fphtml.aspx?eventid=178&AEID=129,172,170,171,176&IMID=170

Well, well, well... I might just have to take a drive up from the Keys to see what they have to offer........

Quote from ken black on December 6th, 2012, 02:09 PM

Quote from woody0068 on December 6th, 2012, 10:21 AM

Quote from Badger on December 6th, 2012, 09:51 AM

Quote from ken black on December 6th, 2012, 09:33 AM

Hmmmmm, I just checked the Power-gen website because i wanted to see first hand myself, but when i looked up Inteligentry NGE motors, their not even registered to be there...hmmm , makes you wonder don't it?

Check for PTP Licensing, their licensing subcompany.  It's still there...

Yeah, found them.
attaching link for those who want to know
http://fp32.a2zinc.net/clients/fppennwell/events12/public/fphtml.aspx?eventid=178&AEID=129,172,170,171,176&IMID=170

Well, well, well... I might just have to take a drive up from the Keys to see what they have to offer........

That would be great if you could make it!
It would be nice to have some trusted feedback on what is going on with their NGE.

Also if you can maybe get some video or pictures of the setup. :)

Please let us know if you do go!

element 119

Quote from element 119 on December 6th, 2012, 05:43 PM

Quote from ken black on December 6th, 2012, 02:09 PM

Quote from woody0068 on December 6th, 2012, 10:21 AM

Quote from Badger on December 6th, 2012, 09:51 AM

Quote from ken black on December 6th, 2012, 09:33 AM

Hmmmmm, I just checked the Power-gen website because i wanted to see first hand myself, but when i looked up Inteligentry NGE motors, their not even registered to be there...hmmm , makes you wonder don't it?

Check for PTP Licensing, their licensing subcompany.  It's still there...

Yeah, found them.
attaching link for those who want to know
http://fp32.a2zinc.net/clients/fppennwell/events12/public/fphtml.aspx?eventid=178&AEID=129,172,170,171,176&IMID=170

Well, well, well... I might just have to take a drive up from the Keys to see what they have to offer........

That would be great if you could make it!
It would be nice to have some trusted feedback on what is going on with their NGE.

Also if you can maybe get some video or pictures of the setup. :)

Please let us know if you do go!

element 119

Its a big convention, hire a scootmobile or a zagway? Would be nice to know what's going on, so many contenders in new technology.



From papp's patent on combustion:

US Patent # 3,680,431 (August 1,1972)
"Method & Means For Generating Explosive Forces"
Josef Papp

In a specific test in which a 15-1/2 inch cubic charging chamber was employed, the two capacitor plates were each one eighth inch thick by 1-1/8 inch wide by 2-1/2 inches long and were spaced one fourth inch apart. The heating coil 33 in that instance was made from a 2-1/2 inch length of wolfram about 0.03 inches in diameter. The cable 24 was connected to a small generator supplying 35 volt AC at 1-1/2 amperes. One of the cells and one of the electrodes (such as 10 and 30) were connected to the positive AC line and the other cell and electrode were connected to the negative side. When the switch was closed to supply the current to the charge, explosion occurred virtually instantaneously.


link to the patent:

http://intelligentry.com/_files/USPatent3680431.pdf

~~~~~~~~

If Papp could get the voltage and current this low...then should we also try a wolfram filliment in between the electrodes?

last few lines of patent.  shape is important.

search what is a shaped charge.  what i remember is they use a triangle shape to focus energy of blast?


cheers.

In the Papp explosion, instead of using a spark to ionise the air, he used a hot Tungsten wire. As soon as enough air between the plates was ionised enough to conduct electricity, the capacitor charge across the plates produced the pop. This method doesn't have the same reliability of timing as a spark, so wouldn't be so good for an engine. You may be able to get the timing better by circulating a bit of the gas through a heater unit and blowing the hot gas across the spark gap. Using Tungsten (melting point over 3000°C, if I remember rightly) means you can get the gas-stream to at least 1000°C and nicely conducting. Maybe some problems with turbulence if the engine is running fast, but use enough pressure and it should work.

Found this relavent. :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dlIYad2WzA

Thx

Quote from simonderricutt on December 7th, 2012, 08:15 AM

In the Papp explosion, instead of using a spark to ionise the air, he used a hot Tungsten wire. As soon as enough air between the plates was ionised enough to conduct electricity, the capacitor charge across the plates produced the pop. This method doesn't have the same reliability of timing as a spark, so wouldn't be so good for an engine. You may be able to get the timing better by circulating a bit of the gas through a heater unit and blowing the hot gas across the spark gap. Using Tungsten (melting point over 3000°C, if I remember rightly) means you can get the gas-stream to at least 1000°C and nicely conducting. Maybe some problems with turbulence if the engine is running fast, but use enough pressure and it should work.

Maybe not for a high rpm engine, allthough papp states that it almost instantly fired. What i think to be interesting is that with such low electrics, he gets a higher combustion then the normal popp?

If this is to be repeated..then the rest towards an engine is scaling down the force..more easily then the way now.

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on December 7th, 2012, 09:11 AM

Found this relavent. :

Thx

You think of testing this on the popper as a way to pre-ionize/tintillate the mix?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J_KqY81EmA

A closer look at the Americium 241 button from a smoke detector.

The Americium 241 button seems to be a standard product found in a large verity of smoke detectors.

This button will generate a positive electrostatic surface charge on the bucket.

The design of the smoke detector must be radiation failsafe even if abused.

The Americium 241 buttons seems safe to install in the bucket.

The button is small but powerful. More than one button will fit inside the bucket.

Opinions are welcome.

Hello all, well my 350 volt, 3300 uf caps came in today 10 of them, very good price, so when I get some time, I will be experimenting.:D

Quote from Jeff Nading on December 8th, 2012, 10:12 AM

Hello all, well my 350 volt, 3300 uf caps came in today 10 of them, very good price, so when I get some time, I will be experimenting.:D

Have fun

Don't forget to completely discharge the caps before putting any fingers near them,
just to be on the safe side...........

Quote from Jeff Nading on December 8th, 2012, 10:12 AM

Hello all, well my 350 volt, 3300 uf caps came in today 10 of them, very good price, so when I get some time, I will be experimenting.:D

Hmm you have some big plans with them?

Quote from Axil on December 7th, 2012, 11:02 PM

A closer look at the Americium 241 button from a smoke detector.

The Americium 241 button seems to be a standard product found in a large verity of smoke detectors.

This button will generate a positive electrostatic surface charge on the bucket.

The design of the smoke detector must be radiation failsafe even if abused.

The Americium 241 buttons seems safe to install in the bucket.

The button is small but powerful. More than one button will fit inside the bucket.

Opinions are welcome.

Alpha was read by the meter without aluminum shield
Beta was with a thin shield
Gamma was read with a thicker shield.

The thickness of the Papp buckets seem to tell me he was using Gamma rays to excite the mix.

Quote from Lynx on December 8th, 2012, 11:25 AM

Quote from Jeff Nading on December 8th, 2012, 10:12 AM

Hello all, well my 350 volt, 3300 uf caps came in today 10 of them, very good price, so when I get some time, I will be experimenting.:D

Have fun

Don't forget to completely discharge the caps before putting any fingers near them,
just to be on the safe side...........

Yes, they are used, so even from unpacking them I'll be careful.

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on December 7th, 2012, 09:11 AM

Found this relavent. :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dlIYad2WzA

Thx

More to the story... I'm most consernd with the magnetic feild...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-felVHrVsQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Quote from Axil on December 7th, 2012, 11:02 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J_KqY81EmA

A closer look at the Americium 241 button from a smoke detector.

The Americium 241 button seems to be a standard product found in a large verity of smoke detectors.

This button will generate a positive electrostatic surface charge on the bucket.

The design of the smoke detector must be radiation failsafe even if abused.

The Americium 241 buttons seems safe to install in the bucket.

The button is small but powerful. More than one button will fit inside the bucket.

Opinions are welcome.

ahhh my favorite radioactive friend! :)

i have been " playing " with one of theses for about a month or more.

here is photo on my "sample" :

[attachment=2717]

forget the buckets.. just drop a handful of them in the bottom... lol

i haven't found a "smoke detector junk yard" that i can just extract a bunch... this being the first problem.  

Thoughts on reading the Papp patent - #1.

http://www.rexresearch.com/papp/2pappats.htm

There is an interesting paragraph in the Papp patent that interested me greatly; yes, it hit one of my hot buttons very hard. It is quoted as follows:

Quote

“Similarly, atoms which exhibit alpha particle emission (which generally involves strong interaction between nucleons), are capable of being utilized. Although alpha decay is normally slow and have half-lives which are longer due to electrostatic barriers that make it difficult for alpha particles to escape, the present invention utilizes periodic discharges of electrical energy which speed up the escape of alpha particles and permit the reactions to be utilized effectively in the method of the present invention.”

I have come to believe that the separation and concentration of charge carriers relax the coulomb barrier in general proximity to the spark.

Ken shoulders believes that this lowering of the coulomb barrier is ultimately related to the modification of the magnetic permeability of the vacuum.

Anderson localization is a means to support the separation and concentration of charge carriers in helium as follows:

Quote

ELECTRON MOBILITY IN DENSE HE GAS

A.F. Borghesani

Experiments on the mobility of electrons in dense helium gas elucidated how localized electron states develop when the gas density gas is increased. Up to 77 K, the density dependence of the mobility clearly shows that the formation of electron bubbles is a continuous phenomenon.

Localization of electrons in bubbles also appears at high temperatures if the density is so large that the free energy of the localized state is negative enough.

Percolation and hydrodynamic models have been devised to explain the continuous transition from high mobility states to low-mobility states.

It is shown that density-dependent, quantum multiple scattering effects modify the energy of the nearly free electron in a way that can be accurately described by heuristically modifying the kinetic theory prediction.

In radioactive isotopes in a dense helium environment, the relaxation of their coulomb barriers will greatly increase the emission rates of associated alpha, beta and gamma radiation emitters.

This greatly increased nuclear radiation will ionize helium based penning noble gases mixes.

Xenon is a known nuclear diode (converts nuclear radiation to electrons).

Cross posted on vortex