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these rotating magnetic fields are composed of infinitely small gyroscopic particles.

so in your mind you are seeing spinning particles of matter in a magnetic field?
Do these particles create charge because of there spin in a magnetic field?
Do the particles spin increase spin when the current flows in the wire? why shouldn't it as the particles should be magnetically induced by the field created by the current...right?
So these spinning particles if they increased spin would they not leave the wire they are in or if outside of it get repelled away by there increased spin?
I know what I always thought but how do you see it?
What could those particles be??
Should they not be known particles?
Should they not be particles known to us, that is particles that were there even before you added the current to the wire??
A particle that can spin and stay meshed over a distance from the matter it was in or around!
A particle that can widen that mesh gear when energy is given to it!
A particle that can stay spinning for hundreds of years in a magnetic field! or even spin when not in the field and not slow down!
A particle like that would have to have a very small mass would it not, one might even say mass less but we did say particle didn't we?
So what is the particle???
ponder that..
And when I say spin of a particle, it could be angular momentum spin which is real physical angular movement the type that makes a polarised photon turn a physical object.

@matt
matt this ones for you...imagine your gears all in a row or meshed...
now put a axle through each gear..
the axle is our angular momentum, now you might be seeing that axle as a solid bar...dont

imagine in this thought experiment that the axle is merely a elastic band.
when your gears are at there normal state the elastic has no twist on it.
add a current to your gears points as you stated and the angular momentum of your gears turn,
clockwise is spin up and anticlockwise is spin down.
your gears are free to turn in the direction the current makes them turn but it starts to build up a resistance on the elastic bands, note the elastics will not break or stop continuous rotation but should your current stop the gears will return to the normal state.

So your gyroscopic particles could have a quantum mechanic property of spin and angular momentum spin and may not be a continuous analogue spin while current grows or is maintained.
Angular momentum of spin is more like taking a magnetic gimble
put it next to a spinning disk which revolves a north then a south facing magnet the gimble will start spinning but it wants to take a position 180^o apart, there is no in between position that's spin up flipping to spin down this creates rotation, but is different than normal spin associated with a basketball spinning which is analogue in nature...
Your angular momentum of spin has 1/2 integer increments of spin ....1=360^o  &  1/2 integer is 180^o & 0=no angular spin the gear at rest...

So spin -1/2 is anticlockwise spin up or +1/2 clockwise spin down
What I'm trying to say in this thought experiment is that those gears move 180^o at a time and they are not necessarily connected at the gear points but are connected magnetically by angular momentum and a moment of magnetism or if you want by positive and or negative charge polarity.
So do you see a particle not necessarily a analogue spinning particle that is in the field and be controlled to turn like a gear would by angular momentum this gives a perception of mass greater than expected can expand out in size a set governed distance and has to obey a reason to return to a normal state.
enjoy and see if anything striking exists in this to you.
and for everyone else its a thought experiment.

Back on track.  I like this.  (No office,  I just like this direct newman thought process as I guess I was not aware that it would go so far so fast) 

I have a verry simple question. 

Is there any proof that the magnetic feild is spinning at all around a wire?  Or mearly is it just "there" and the spin is with in the feild.  As sonnet is kinda describing. 

~Russ

Russ, I tried to calculate the inductance from the DI/DT measurement we made and I got around 7100 Henry. I don't have any way to verify it though. Ohm's Law for an Inductor: V = L (di/dt). I used 110V

Quote from ~Russ on January 27th, 2018, 05:53 PM

Back on track.  I like this.  (No office,  I just like this direct newman thought process as I guess I was not aware that it would go so far so fast) 

I have a verry simple question. 

Is there any proof that the magnetic feild is spinning at all around a wire?  Or mearly is it just "there" and the spin is with in the feild.  As sonnet is kinda describing. 

~Russ

Yes Russ, Faraday proved this with the very first ever electric motor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LTP49d7KF8

I also believe there is one where an insulated wire is ran through mercury or salt water and a magnet is placed on a cork and the magnet spins around the current carrying wire.

If memory serves me.

Hope this helps

Quote from Magneton on January 27th, 2018, 07:31 PM

Russ, I tried to calculate the inductance from the DI/DT measurement we made and I got around 7100 Henry. I don't have any way to verify it though. Ohm's Law for an Inductor: V = L (di/dt). I used 110V

Well Viking got 7000 on our streem so. Its prob about right? 

~Russ

Right PP.  The Homopolar motor...

I still need. To think about this more. As I'm. Not sure. It answers my I qustion.  But yes thanks for. The reminder...

~Russ

Quote from PeakPositive on January 27th, 2018, 07:39 PM

Yes Russ, Faraday proved this with the very first ever electric motor.

No, the only reason this motor spins in a circle is because of the geometry of the setup.  This does not "prove" that the magnetic field is "spinning."  There are innumerable videos and web links on "force on a current-carrying wire in a magnetic field."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTTA30sEv6o

In the original video the vertical cylindrical magnet subtends lines of magnetic force that look like a mushroom head.  The wire is physically constrained by the pivot point such that it cuts the lines of magnetic force from the mushroom head more or less at right angles.  Therefore there is always a force at right angles to both the axis of the wire and the lines of magnetic force.  The net result is that this force manifests itself as a torque that continually moves the wire around in a circular fashion.

This is all nothing more than an exercise in the geometry of a simple motor that pushes a wire around in a circle because its movement is constrained by a pivot point.

Quote from ~Russ on January 27th, 2018, 07:59 PM

Well Viking got 7000 on our streem so. Its prob about right?

The problem from the scope shots from your stream is the HV from the batteries dips as the current starts to flow when the 63% test requires that the voltage be constant.  You can do a proper measurement by simply putting a 10K resistor in series with the 45K-ohm coil and connecting it to a bench power supply at say 25 volts.  Then you can scope the voltage across the resistor and get a nice clean exponential curve to measure the 63% current level for the time constant.  Then the inductance is just the time constant times the total resistance of the coil plus the 10K resistor.

Quote from ~Russ on January 27th, 2018, 05:53 PM

... the spin is with in the feild.

I'll bet you ten dollars you have no idea what you just stated there Russ.

The third field IS SPIN.  The tempic field.  But don't take my word for it.  Only the boys topside would know for sure.



Has anyone considered asking where the rotating magnetic field comes from when a current is passed through a conductor?

How about asking why the rotation is always related to the direction of the current flow?


Hmmmm...    Me thinks spin IS the gyroscopic particle Newman speaks of.  It exists everywhere and permeates everything.  It's the field guys.  The field that makes tomorrow different than yesterday.  Without it, there is only now and a now that never changes.


Three is the magic number.  Three dimensions of space filled with three fields.

You two knows who i'm talking about, we helped you with the calculations for the elongated Newman motor and talked about it for a long time and you just out of nowhere decided to build the patented Newman version where the used wire that generate torque is like 5% to 10% max - the rest of the wire (90%) is wasted, the enlongated version uses 80% to 95% (depens on how long you make it).

It was you two who did not read the book to the end, because page 304 (bellow) depicts exactly the interaction of your coils (green highlight), where as the red and purple depict the enlongated version and how to build it the correct way and if you know that, you would not be building what you have so, please spend at least 15 minutes staring at it and read it word by word. You tricked me once, twice but you won't do it the third time. You want to wast time and money, fine, that is you choice but you won't waste my time because i tryed to help i really did.

With all the information from your research and information from the Newman book, you now know all you need to know to build the elongated version.

You will never power a house whith the unit you have and it does not matter how many kilos of wire you put on it, this is a failed model project from the start so, unless you move on to the enlongated version where the true power is, you will get nowhere because all we want is to power our houses.

After this post, i can't continue this discusion or any other anymore because i'm very sad that i had to be the one to tell you that which breaks my heart.
I have a feeling that you all will throw rocks at me for this anyway.
Btw, Tavote is not a man and with that, value of all my posts has just drop dramaticly, obviously only you men can figure it out, right ? so, continue your fights about plasma or change the future for us all.

Was great to be part of something so revolutionary that could change the world.
Goodbye everyone.

Quote

Is there any proof that the magnetic feild is spinning at all around a wire?  Or mearly is it just "there" and the spin is with in the feild.  As sonnet is kinda describing.

Thoughts...for others
Remember our field is either
1)  created from the magnet atoms, then our field gyroscopic particles must be there in the atom as well because we know that the magnet works in a vacuum.
Or
2)  The field gyroscopic particles are also is in the fabric of space and if so why do we think its a particle as a vacuum would have removed any particles.

My thought process directs me to think the gyroscopic particles came from the atoms of the magnet...and permeated space.
So what particle in the atom of the magnet or any mass that have atom alignment for example,
has a -1/2 spin up and a +1/2 spin down so as to create what looks like analogue spin but is really angular momentum...
I leave you to think for a while...and answer the two points above...first.

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You two knows who i'm talking about, we helped you with the calculations for the elongated Newman motor and talked about it for a long time and you just out of nowhere decided to build the patented Newman version where the used wire that generate torque is like 5% to 10% max - the rest of the wire (90%) is wasted, the enlongated version uses 80% to 95% (depens on how long you make it).

@Tavote
We are following in the foot steps of Mr Newman to learn what he did, how he did it and the mistakes he made...
This is why poor john keeps getting his modification ideas cast to one side....this thread is about understanding and you have just shown us brilliantly that you are gaining that understanding and it would be a real shame for you to walk away now Tavote.
Think about what I have just said...
Regards

Russ,
To the question of does a magnetic field in a wire create spin? Try this experiment.  Take a length of small wire say, 6" of #24awg and stretch it across a piece of paper giving it a small clearance from the paper.  Then sprinkle course iron fillings down the wires length.  Then send dc pulses one way through the wire of low frequency and view the results.

@Tavote,

I have know idea what just happen here.  But all I can say is that I would not spend about 10,000$ on magnets for a version I did not unerstand... That feels like a waist. 

So. we start from where we know we can grasp what we need to make the better version. 

If you think any of what you did here and what we did here wad a waist of time. 

I guess your looking right past everything we did here. 

Aparently you had all the answers already and we did not.  And this is greate. But we did not see it as clearly yet. 

However we had to walk down the path to get all those answers. 

With thst said,  if there was somthing we did wrong to you,   were sorry. 

However I'm not sure of anything I did.  So please do tell. 

There is no such thing as a waist of time or money learing the basic building blocks of our understanding.

 I second what sonnet stated,  and I'd hate to see you leave now. 

However its up to you. 

Greate minds share things that others can't grasp,  that's not the fualt of the reciver... 

Things take time... 

One step at a time...

God bless

~Russ
 

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I guess your looking right past everything we did here. 

Aparently you had all the answers already and we did not.  And this is greate. But we did not see it as clearly yet.

Being open and tolerant of opinion is good but there is a boundary where is can be distracting to the central task when
it becomes unconstructive. We collaborate to share insights and save time. Where input is unconstructive is where the
saving is unduly time consuming due to distraction or a weak link to what is relevant in the physical test apparatus.

If we have progress and make a claim there are all range of opinion. Sometimes the opinion reflects more the background and experience of the opinion gator. Some of the comments are a thinly disguise logic trap almost like a snap grade school oral test. As researcher in applied science we are more inventor with skills and knowledge to these the applications of what we know and constructive insights or pointing our obvious fallacy (diverts wide from path of purpose).

Reality is the final grade.

If Travote knows and we don't it is great because Travote can build the full working power plant.

But may be not because of a wide variety of personal reasons combining  with personal circumstances.

Also if it works no explanation is needed as to if it works or not it will still work if a bunch do not accept it.
False preconceived beliefs slows down progress if it is rejected unduly not even the time of day for a thought.   

Acceptance is capricious and arbitrary. Demands are made to change the prototype model and things
theoretical before the starting phase is even finished. I would take them in to account for usefulness
in future build modification before reaching conclusions if the advice seems possible on the helping an
oversight side.

The test is the understanding of the build its purpose and main concept.

If an  idea is communicated fairly simply and clearly the idea better understood but there is a balance.

There is a range of grasp for some of these reasons.

     
   
   

Quote from Tavote on January 28th, 2018, 02:01 AM

I have a feeling that you all will throw rocks at me for this anyway.

Not hardly.  You have given the goose that laid the golden eggs.

Your post practically hit me over the head with a hammer.  It's so clear and so obvious.

Repulsion is the collision of spin.  It's a usable force that costs us nothing.  No Lens Law, just pure simple force to utilize in the most effective manner possible.  A force that cares not of polarity and is additive to no limit.

I hope everyone sees what I see.  How to create an orthogonal coil and apply resonance using very tiny impulses.  Pure simplicity and everything Newman wished to teach us and for us to put to use.

So, if the coil is around 437,000 feet long it should take (at the speed of light) about .000437 seconds for a pulse to go from end to end not counting any inter-winding hocus pocus caused by cross coupling or capacitance. Just straight time of flight through the wire. So if we put a one ohm resistor on each end of the coil and pulsed it we should see the two pulses (in and out) on a scope shot about 0.44 milliseconds apart. Observation was made on one of the experiments that the magnetic field lagged behind a pulse by about 70 milliseconds. that is a ratio of about 160:1 magnetic field delay versus electric (speed of light)

Well, after thinking about it for some time, i came to conclusion that i wrote it wrongly and i should probably not write it the way i did, i regret it but i can't take it back unless i edit my post Hehe.

sonnet "be a real shame for you to walk away now Tavote."
You are right, this really would be a bad time to walk away now.

talisman "If Travote knows and we don't it is great because Travote can build the full working power plant"
If only the money was not the issue, then i think that you are correct, even though the power plant sounds funny.

Matt Watts "Not hardly.  You have given the goose that laid the golden eggs."
I didn't expected that, you got me :)

After all i have to apologise to those two, because there are other ways of writing it and i choose the bad way, i admit it.

I really did expected to be rocked down but you all proved me wrong, thank you.

We are all a team,  we makes mestakes,  but in the end we are all on diffrent parts of our jurny,  and diffrent parts of our understnading.  Know one left behind. 

We can agree to disagree and agree to agree,  but in the end only the truth holds. 

I do t have the time at the moment,  but later tonight I have some Info to Post.  (I think we are ready) 

I pray everyday that god and newman gives me the knolage needed to achieve the goal,  but to Only give it when the time is right...

He did just that. 

No regrets...

No risk,  no reword, 

All is forgeven in the end. 

~Russ

"The devil's in the details"

Well...  I like what Matt said... 

GOD is in the details. The devils long gone! 

Also,  from now. I declare this thred to only be directly related to newman. 

I'm doing this not to piss anyone off,  but rather to try to keep the I formation strictly to the newman work. 

With thst said, dont be shy to post anything you thinnk is  related... 

But don't be surprised when I start a New thred with a post...   

~Russ

Quote from ~Russ on January 27th, 2018, 07:07 AM

In this test I had the battery connected and i was spinning the rotor by hand, the result is that when the magent is passing the coil, it is inducing current and voltage greater than the applyed. There for current flowing to the battery. This works for 110v pack. I need to test higher voltages still for this same result. (All adding in mechanical and eleteical output)

Russ,

I hope you have time to really analyze this motor because I am smelling confirmation bias on your part.  Think about what it really means if the induced EMF from the coil is greater than the applied voltage and as a result current flows back into the battery.  For starters we are going to assume that the commutator is set up to always apply torque to the rotor to make it spin.  And of course you flip the polarity of the voltage applied across the coil every half-turn so that you have a full 360 degrees of power stroking.

So, if the commutator contact is set up to make current flow out of the battery in a clockwise direction and add a push to the rotor, and the EMF from the coil is greater than the battery voltage and the current flows counter-clockwise then we can say two things happen.  The first is that the battery recharges.  The second is that the current flowing counter-clockwise, a.k.a.,"backwards," will act to put a magnetic brake on the rotor and slow it down.

So you can say in general that all backwards-flowing current is going to act to slow the rotor down as well as recharging the battery.  Where did the mechanical energy in the spinning rotor come from in the first place?  The answer is that it came from earlier commutator pulses that pushed on the rotor to make it spin faster.

So it sounds to me that any possible "battery charging" while the rotor is turning will be self-regulating and slow the rotor down until it reaches a stable RPM.  Slowing the rotor down reduces the EMF from the coil such that it's ability to reverse the current flow decreases.  My gut feeling is telling me that any possible battery recharging due to high EMF being induced in the coil will be minimal at best because of the self-regulation due to magnetic breaking.  So there are some dynamics at play that have to be seriously considered before you arrive at any conclusions.

And sorry but I have to give you another reality check:  As of now there is no mechanical or electrical output from the motor.  So far nobody seems to be talking about this issue but it has to eventually come up in the discussion.

SS

Okay, so what about a great way to investigate the battery recharging on the bench?  The good news about this motor is that it consumes very little current which makes it a great candidate for being powered by capacitors.

So my suggestion is that if you have a bunch of big electrolytics sitting in a box somewhere then that would be the way to go.  For example if you had some 50,000 uF 25-volt electrolytics then putting eight in series would give you a 200-volt DC power source.

Then you could spin up the rotor by hand to the approximate running RPM at 200 volts and then switch in the capacitor bank and see what happens.  If there is magic and the voltage on the capacitor bank starts to increase then you can break out the champagne.  If the capacitor bank voltage starts to slowly decrease then you can take note of a start voltage and then see how long it takes the voltage to drop by say 5%, which is ten volts.  So you have the effective capacitance, the start voltage, the end voltage and the time interval.  That gives you the required data to make a very accurate power consumption measurement for the motor operating at the average voltage of 195 volts.

Also, if you measure the output resistance of a string of 9-volt batteries that add up to 200 volts, then you could put the same value of resistor in series with the capacitor bank to emulate the string of 9-volt batteries.  That would be a more accurate simulation of what is going on with the battery bank and you could use that resistor as a current sensing resistor at the same time.

experiment based on info from page 304. Tavote has keen insight...wire over a magnet
with a short length of straight wire over the magnet (shorter than the magnet) the wire is repelled when current passes through the wire. and it is directional based on current direction and N or S pole just like Newman says in his book on page 304

@ SS

Yes.  There is a to do List....

Were not there yet.  But "proof is in the putting"

And this chocolate is tasting quite nice. ;)

Still looking for the whip cream... But the resipie is on the bench

~Russ