Quote

My question then is:  Does the Newman coil actually behave very similar to the Jack Noskills coil?  Does the electric field take a short cut and get end-to-end much faster?  I tend to think it does and by doing so, the magnetic field it produces is also unlike a typical solenoid coil.

@Matt
Go easy on my feeble brain,
The dc circuit that resonant s behaves the same as a A/C circuit so impedance comes into play.
Having said that there are similar traits to your brief description.
The coil should indeed take a short cut and get to the end much faster...
We cannot beat the propagation to the run cycle....This is what I said to SS. We would love to but a small amount of current is going to beat us...this is not a problem as Russ has shown you , you can get far more back than your losses.
This is how I see it, and Russ write his Doc telling you as much...I believe.

I skimmed though the two clips that Sonnet linked to and they are 100% spot on.  I will just follow up with some colour commentary.

If you absorbed those two great clips you will have noticed that whenever you use the term "reactance" that it is exclusively associated with a pure sinusoidal excitation at some given frequency.  That is the only context that that term is used in when discussing circuits.  And that means the term has been misused several times over the past few pages of this thread.

Simple things that are easy to remember:

The reactance of a capacitor starts at infinity at zero hertz and ends at zero at infinity hertz.  An inductor is the compliment of that, it starts at zero at zero hertz and ends at infinity at infinity hertz.

In plain English capacitors block low frequencies and pass high frequencies and inductors pass low frequencies and block high frequencies.

There are related transient switching characteristics:  When you first connect to a capacitor it acts like a short circuit.  After a certain amount of time it acts like an open circuit.  And an inductor, one more time, is the compliment of that:  When you first connect to an inductor it acts like an open circuit.  After a certain amount of time it acts like a short circuit.

So that means when the commutator in the Neman motor starts a "fire" cycle, initially the big coil looks like an open circuit and no current flows.  If the current were to flow for long enough, then it would look like a 45.5 kohm resistor.

And there is always a fascination with a coil in self-resonance.  That's the particular frequency where the value of the capacitive reactance is equal to the value of the inductive reactance.  Specifically, this models the coil as a capacitor in series with the main inductor.  At the resonance frequency the two reactances subtract from each other and cancel out such that the only thing that remains is the resistance of the wire.  There is no special "resonance magic" here and for a coil it really means that the coil has stopped functioning as a coil in the circuit which in the conventional electronics world is an undesirable thing.  In more practical terms, you will see circuits where somewhere in the circuit there is a discrete capacitor in series with a discrete inductor.  Yes, this exhibits the property of self-resonance but in the real world this is what is called a band-pass or a notch filter, where the filter passes a certain band of frequencies and blocks frequencies above and below that band.

Quote from sonnet on January 30th, 2018, 01:20 AM

@Russ
Listening to your conversation..
Glad you hear that your commutator with the 'fire-gap-short-gap-blank' needs to loose that gap after the fire...in your mind.
I have no doubt you will be rewarded for that Russ...and glad my earlier post were not totally in vain..

Trapping the charge in a capacitor would be good to continue the flow to the short...

Would the magnetic field be lost in the coil at the point of change over...well true answer is a tiny bit, but the field reacts to slowly for you to have to worry...just like your voltage test on a magnet passing over the coil in the previous video posted, there would be a slight dip at the peaks but the flow is going the same way so no harm done....no spin change...in my view you would be good to go.

so for a motor, the short is good, for a generator it might be different.

however, what ever we do, DO NOT SHORT the POWER AND BATT. we did this, and it ended up being a mess. the arcs if small enough will hold a long DC arc. this is NOT GOOD. as it just kills the battery's.

so although your thoughts are good and i also see the reason to do this... its not good.

from my memory, i do recall reading in the book that the gap should be small enough not to short out the battery but i dont have time to reference it at the moment.

In general the shorting has a mechanical benefit from what i can see. dose it have an electrical benefit? It seems so, but the coil dissipates that energy before the next cycle, so if your pulsing one 1/2 cycle... this changes things...

~Russ

Just some thoughts about the issue of the voltage wavefront passing through the total length of the coil and what that implies.  For starters I don't think that is a productive discussion because it does not apply to Russ' motor.  And beyond that, you are entering a world of transmission line theory and finite element modeling and simulation and all that stuff.  This is stuff in the realm of a microwave engineer.  I don't really have a clue what would happen on the sub-nanosecond scale in a giant coil.  But more importantly there is no real reason to care.  I would even question all of the discussions about quantum electrodynamics when the Newman motor operates on a macro scale and you don't need to consider those effects.  It's important to know what is relevant to the discussion and when to separate the big and the small.

Quote from sonnet on January 30th, 2018, 02:09 AM

@Russ
you spoke off cutting through the magnetic flux and magnetron referenced the particle energy being set free...you went on to say how does it get back in..
let me compare this to the electron again for you....
The electron moves very quirky...not unlike a boomerang leaves a point and circles and comes back whilst the angular moment can turn...
read that paper i posted...to get what I am about to say...
When you spin an electron its like holding a child's arms as they flip...this is why i gave Matt his gears are have elastic axis...in the child's case as the child flips the child's arms allow them to gambol over but on completion of a full flip they are not exactly were they started in terms of angle..
like a hand on a clock face, turn it around once 360^o and it returns to the number it started from but if the electron is continuously flipped it will slowly come back to a few minutes before, another flip and another flip and it is now quite a few degrees behind...think of the child's arms tightening as the flips go on...in reality the child's arms would break but hopefully you see that a second flip is harder than the first...this gives the electron orbital motion , like a boomerang. Or makes it appear to be in a cloud. a orbital cloud..
well if our particle was like the property of the electron it would go around once outside the mass like this boomerang orbital making its orbital cloud..
more food for thought.
I'm obviously alluding to the fact that our particle is a quantum particle with 1/2 spin. and in a high energy state.

I read the paper, good read.

i guess my question was... if this electron replenishes its self.. then there is no mass loss...
??

~Russ

Quote from sonnet on January 30th, 2018, 02:41 AM

@magnetron
your conversation again...
you could measure the time delay through the coil but you would have to unwind the coil so the wire was a single length i.e.not a coil....am I right...?

that's correct... and even then its not " free space" so there would be a velocity faster < light speed...

again covered here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Il_eju4D_TM

and there is a lot more of that on my post about 5 before my doc post. ( cant remember post number)

by the way i will be talking about theses things in my video, so watch that one as that's part of it... ~Russ

Quote from Magneton on January 30th, 2018, 07:51 AM

Hey Tavote... your statement above triggered a memory of something I read in one of Newman's patent applications.
Neman states:
Now a different result:
b) When the electric current from battery 201 (301) becomes weaker to the point that the magnetic field coming from coil 205 (305) has
weakened and shrunk allowing the magnetic field of the rotating magnet 200 (300) to expand and then noticeably induce electric current
into coil 206 (306) and into coil 205 (305), then reverse results are observed.

Russ' magnet's are so strong that we probable have not put enough voltage into the coil to force the magnet's field outside the boundries of the big coil.
wow

good stuff to note there. something to think about for sure. there is a very strong balance we need to be aware of here...

~Russ

Quote from sonnet on January 30th, 2018, 01:35 PM

When you have a high reactance in your coil you are shorting the coil, the voltage can jump across from the start coil wire to the end coil wire,the coil reacts as if its a capacitor in a A/C circuit because of the resonance in the circuit...
remember a capacitor has no resistance and we have made the coil perform as if its a capacitor.
we covered this way way back..
So with a lot less real resistance yes the speed at which the voltage and current travels is so much faster as when our rotor is at the right rpm the propagation just doesn't see the coil length...

I think I said that right.....Russ correct me if I'm wrong.   I see it in my mind but doubt my wording in describing it to others..
watch these invaluable video's if you really want to see how the resistance disappears because of Z..Impedance.

https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/inductor/ac-inductors.html

Dont for get, even though its a coil acting like a cap... the resistance of the coil can not be beat...

so how do we fix this? ( re read my DOC...)

Self parallel resonance of an inductor = ( from the outside) an OPEN circuit...
Self series resonance of an inductor = ( from the outside) a SHORT circuit...

put it in as parallel resonance (no current wants to flow through the circuit, high impedance)
take it out as series resonance...(all current wants to flow through the circuit, low impedance) as RF to gnd it so seams...

~Russ

Quote

I skimmed though the two clips that Sonnet linked to and they are 100% spot on.  I will just follow up with some colour commentary.

Thank you for your kind words, I really wanted everyone to understand the impedance plays a role, and getting a high reactance changes a lot. Glad you saw that...
Yep quantum has little play in achieving the necessary teachings of Newman, as long as you see the spinning particle gives the inertia in the right direction....i'll rein back.
Regards

Quote

Self parallel resonance of an inductor = ( from the outside) an OPEN circuit...
Self series resonance of an inductor = ( from the outside) a SHORT circuit...

@russ
thanks russ some focus for me there, will re-read now its been a while...
good night tonight....look forward to #15 video
regards

Quote from Matt Watts on January 30th, 2018, 02:23 PM

Does the Newman coil actually behave very similar to the Jack Noskills coil?  Does the electric field take a short cut and get end-to-end much faster?  I tend to think it does and by doing so, the magnetic field it produces is also unlike a typical solenoid coil.

ah, you got what i was trying to say to you...

the answer is yes,  that's exactly what induction currents are, However we also have this capacitive effect between winding as well. ( Eric Dollard covers this really well)

however... as long as you think about how the battery needs to be connected... ( through the wire) then the only real current used is what got through the physical connection. Turn it off fast enough and you got a whirlwind of stuff going on in that coil ever before you make that circuit complete.

we start playing with high voltages and we are in a new world of energy transfer... ( I think this is where the RF comes in to play as well...)

so my new question is... dose this capacitive effect between winding consume real current??? Id say it depends on the voltage.

~Russ

Quote from SqueezingSparks on January 30th, 2018, 02:51 PM

Just some thoughts about the issue of the voltage wavefront passing through the total length of the coil and what that implies.  For starters I don't think that is a productive discussion because it does not apply to Russ' motor.  And beyond that, you are entering a world of transmission line theory and finite element modeling and simulation and all that stuff.  This is stuff in the realm of a microwave engineer.  I don't really have a clue what would happen on the sub-nanosecond scale in a giant coil.  But more importantly there is no real reason to care.  I would even question all of the discussions about quantum electrodynamics when the Newman motor operates on a macro scale and you don't need to consider those effects.  It's important to know what is relevant to the discussion and when to separate the big and the small.

this is not true, again . re read my DOC and you will see that the RF comes from these things you are stating to ignore... just something to think about...

~Russ

Quote from sonnet on January 30th, 2018, 03:19 PM

@russ
thanks russ some focus for me there, will re-read now its been a while...
good night tonight....look forward to #15 video
regards

the references are even more important than what i wrote in that doc. because what i wrote you should be able to conclude for your self and then you will have an even more deep understanding of why i said what i said...

~Russ

ah man.. ok finally caught up... Going now to make my video. was good a did this first, gave me more thoughts related to what I'm talking about.

~Russ

Quote

i guess my question was... if this electron replenishes its self.. then there is no mass loss...
??

@Russ
No mass loss if the replenishment is outside the mass the electron would just hang out there in the field and needs to take nothing from the mass and stays out there..just like the van allen belt, if it returns to the mass then it has lost its energy through interaction and it consumes lost energy from the mass on its return.Whether it then went out to a field again would depend on the fact 1) was the atoms aligned  2) is there a potential difference of a magnitude to push the electron out of the mass
It all depends were the greatest potential is for the electron at any given time...In the van allen belt its potential is greater from space than from the mass of the earth...If there are sufficient amounts of electrons present as in the van allen belt then a charge can build up which can be carried back to earth via the electrons.
Disclaimer I repeat this is my theory...don't get upset with my views
regards.

Quote

however, what ever we do, DO NOT SHORT the POWER AND BATT. we did this, and it ended up being a mess. the arcs if small enough will hold a long DC arc. this is NOT GOOD. as it just kills the battery's.

@Russ
yep fully understand where your coming from
but to me the space between fire and short should be as little as possible, but wide enough to negate the dielectric break down of the spark. good commutator building and thought can improve as we/you develope...as separate track on the commutator will/would help for this..
run []
short[]
run []
short[]
instead of
      [] run
      [] short
hope that shows what i mean....lol
use two brushes but join them at the top well away from commutator surface.so brush would look like a big 'U'
but maybe i too early in the topic for this.
regards

Quote from sonnet on January 30th, 2018, 04:54 PM

@Russ
yep fully understand where your coming from
but to me the space between fire and short should be as little as possible, but wide enough to negate the dielectric break down of the spark. good commutator building and thought can improve as we/you develope...as separate track on the commutator will/would help for this..
run []
short[]
run []
short[]
instead of
      [] run
      [] short
hope that shows what i mean....lol
use two brushes but join them at the top well away from commutator surface.so brush would look like a big 'U'
but maybe i too early in the topic for this.
regards

nice idea...

I'm thinking of ways of getting better brush-to-commutator contact, preferably with little wear, little friction, little noise, little arcing, and good electrical contact.

How about a ball bearing as a contact, rolling over the commutator? It's metal, so it'll conduct well. The high voltage / low current shouldn't pit the bearing balls, and with a polished commutator contact area, it'd provide good electrical contact with a quick 'lift-off' at the edge of the commutator contact area for less arcing, by dint of it being round. It'd also run quietly and with little friction, so it should have a long life.

Guys, think on this statement until you are certain what it means in a mechanical system:

Quote from Dr. Roger Hastings

Self resonant frequencies (frequency at which the coil inductive  reactance  equals the coil  distributed  capacitive  reactance) are typically  on the  order of  the armature  rotation  frequency.

Here's another one:

Quote from Dr. Roger Hastings

The staircase current rise is typical of the  Newman Motors, with  the width of the stairs in all cases being approximately  equal to the  length of the coil winding divided by the speed of light.

And...

Quote from Dr. Roger Hastings

For example, his  gyroscopic  particles  interact as  spinning  particles  (through the cross product of their spins),  and this  qualitatively  describes magnetic induction.

BTW, that's cross product, not dot product.  We are talking three dimensions of space here, just as Tavote showed us in the "Page 304" screenshot.


Lest us not forget:

Quote from James Clerk Maxwell

In speaking of the energy of the field, I  wish to be understood literally: ALL ENERGY IS THE SAME AS MECHANICAL ENERGY.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_product

more to think about (goes with video 15) ~Russ

Quote

How about a ball bearing as a contact, rolling over the commutator?

@cycle
A small contact point increases the wear and the risk of arc burning the ball, which will scratch your commutator.
This is why industry has not used this process I would imagine..
In many respects a good idea, but the disadvantages would make me say no don't..

Quote from ~Russ on January 30th, 2018, 02:33 PM

my goal is to understand the fundamental principles that Newman teaches. However not just to understand, but rather demonstrate them on my bench, then teach them to others.

 so am i making a motor or a generator? right now i'm focus on making a motor, why? because that's exactly what Newman was interested in.  once he did this he realized that you could also extract RF energy and back current from this motor. and if one wanted to you could turn this in to a generator.

again, my goals are short term. one step at a time. never passing a step that is not clear to me....

if you want some clarity, lesion to my conversation HERE very clearly.

it gives you an understanding where my head is... and where i'm headed...

a unit that powers a house... in due time... we ant ready, we only know parts of how to extract power on the bench, and we haven't even demonstrated this yet...  only clues that its possible.... know one takes an idea and turns is it to the best device ever with in a week. or even a month, most times YEARS it takes to prefect something...

I'm not interested in 1 watt in 10 watts out. I want 10 watts in 100000 watts out...  with that said ill be happy to start with 1 watt in 10 watts out...

to answer your question, i want both... and its both that will be useful. as then you have the choice you can have a prime mover, or an energy source, posibaly with the simple task of switching a set of instructions on the firing sequence...

~Russ

Finished hearing your audio file.

I understand what you two are doing now. I have to say, i'm very happy that you are going through the Archive for more information that just are not in the book and as a bonus, these informations goes back to 1996 which is amazing.

That page you read in the audio file to Magneton, i remember that reading it about 6 months ago, so i understand what you are going through and the excitement that goes with it.

About the self-resonance of the coil:

There are probably some good clips out there but I will just mention some thoughts here.  First note we are talking about the stray capacitance within the coil and typically this will be minuscule as compared to the inductance of the coil.  It's also some kind of transient frequency dependent phenomenon because there are no true separate capacitor plates inside a coil separated by an insulator.  Depending on the frequency, the self-resonance can act like a parallel LC circuit or a series LC circuit.

With a signal generator, sweep a sine wave into the input terminal of the coil and connect the output terminal of the coil to a 20 Kohm resistor to ground.  You must use a sine wave.  When you see maximum AC voltage on the load resistor that shows series resonance.  When you see a minimum or zero voltage on the load resistor that shows parallel resonance.  There may be multiple peaks and valleys as you do the sweep.

Make an accurate measurement of the inductance of the coil as I previously stated here:

Quote

The problem from the scope shots from your stream is the HV from the batteries dips as the current starts to flow when the 63% test requires that the voltage be constant.  You can do a proper measurement by simply putting a 10K resistor in series with the 45K-ohm coil and connecting it to a bench power supply at say 25 volts.  Then you can scope the voltage across the resistor and get a nice clean exponential curve to measure the 63% current level for the time constant.  Then the inductance is just the time constant times the total resistance of the coil plus the 10K resistor.

Then, with the inductance measurement for the coil you can determine the various effective stray capacitance values at different frequencies.

The one caveat is that the very high resistance of the coil will also come into play and also have an affect on the self-resonant frequencies but I believe it will be marginal.  I am not really sure because the coil resistance is very high.  That should also be researched.

You have to be very careful with resonance because people always want to believe it is a good thing but that is not necessarily the case.  Let's take a hypothetical example using a generic pulse motor.  Let's say the magnets on the spinning rotor pass by a pick-up coil at say 500 Hertz.  So the experimenter measures the inductance of the pick-up coil and then picks a capacitor to put in parallel with the pick-up coil to get a resonant frequency of 500 Hertz.

When the pulse motor runs without the capacitor connected the coil output is say three volts peak-to-peak.  When the experimenter adds the capacitor he sees the voltage on the coil start to rise and eventually stabilize at 15 volts peak-to-peak.  The experimenter is very happy and convinced that he has demonstrated the "benefits of resonance."

But what is really happening here?  As the pulse motor runs the resonance voltage gets higher and higher and then stabilizes.  Why does it stabilize?  The answer to that is that the power being burned off in the resistance of the coil at the higher resonant currents equals the power being picked up by the coil from rotor magnet passes.  In other words, the resonant system rises in amplitude until all of the supplied power from the rotor magnets passing by the pick-up coil is being burnt off in the pick-up coil resistance itself leaving no useful output power for a load.

So you have to be careful about how you use and apply resonance.  Typically seeing an LC resonator oscillating at the highest resonant amplitude means a maximum power suck into the resistive component of the LC resonator.  If that is your intended output, then fine.  However, if you want to output power into something else, then the LC resonator is sucking your power down the drain as waste heat.

The moral of the story is that applications of resonance have to be thought out carefully.