Quote

Lest us not forget:

“Quote from James Clerk Maxwell


In speaking of the energy of the field, I  wish to be understood literally: ALL ENERGY IS THE SAME AS MECHANICAL ENERGY.

This has been a source of confusion with thinking.

Such a broad universal statement is akin to saying all matter is energy.

While not necessarily a false statement this energy is not in reference to useful applied engineered work.

Or we could just clap our hands and not buy a can opener.

   

Quote

It's also some kind of transient frequency dependent phenomenon because there are no true separate capacitor plates inside a coil separated by an insulator

@SS
just fyi you might like to catch up with this vid..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQGd_jYYfqQ&t=1s
before making that statement SS.
regards

For a motor applied energy for work is the output in ft. lb. (or conversion units base units1 kg⋅m⋅s−2) torque.

There is power applied to the motor but this is not the useful work output and the ratio is often glossed as a simple fast
form of efficiency ratio calculation under some limited parameters and conditions.

Here is a take very often told to energy and oil company employees decide the truth value in context:

Quote

All energy on earth is from the sun. Oil therefore is a natural source of energy. (no further explanation).

Quote from sonnet on January 31st, 2018, 01:30 PM

@SS
just fyi you might like to catch up with this vid..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQGd_jYYfqQ&t=1s
before making that statement SS.
regards

I don't get your point and I feel like you are making a connection where there is none.  In that clip Russ is experimenting with a Mylar (?) insulating plastic sheet being used as a dielectric.  It appears that under high voltage a charge can be impressed on one side of the Mylar sheet and a lack of charge can be impressed on the other side of the sheet such that the sheet itself acts like a complete capacitor with opposite charges on each side of the sheet and the center of the sheet remains a dielectric storing energy in the internal volume where there is an electric field.  When the sheet is put back between the aluminum plates then the charge on the surface of the Mylar can migrate back to the aluminum plates.

In a coil, the capacitance is some kind of high-frequency transmission line related phenomenon that only manifests itself under high-frequency AC conditions.

So the two phenomena are not related from what I can see.

SS

SS

You have  some good points,  and I'm glad your posting some of those thoughts. 

I do agree with your ststmetns for the most part.  On a standerd coil system. 

However for what its worth,  the newman coil is a compleatly new animal. 

For Instance,  The coil apaers to have a SRF of about 118hz.
This should give you an idea of the Kind of capatance this thing has.  Its not. Like anything you ever seen before.  Its like a new place to play... Yet its still just wire on a spool...


I like you pulse motor thought.  In this system there is no heat anywhere. And from my prospective.  The energy in series SRF is extracted as RF as my DOC states.  And now i have more than ever see it more and more clearly as I look at this and others reports on it. 

Just a question,  have you read my DOC and all the refrences?

Its verry important,  and from your posts I think you can have  some deep input to thses thoughts in the RF / delay line / transmition line view point I point out in my DOC. 

~Russ

PS more thoughts on thses things in my video posing shortly

The 'Doc' last updated 30th November 2017
Have you updated since then Russ

Nope same same...  Ok. Need to though lol

Ithink there is alot. More umderstanding with the new I do and testig. We have done. 

~Russ

Here you go...

Number 15

https://youtu.be/2KWajzHSylQ

This brings some answers,  and some qustions... 

~Russ

Ok, still makes good sense..

With the info I gave you on the electron (I think you now know where I'm coming from), how much do you think it might contribute in recharging the coil.
not that it needs to from the existing knowledge..
And I presently cannot think how it might be proven.


hehe part 15...looking forward to this.

Russ,

I am not sure which document you are referring to.  I have skimmed though some things including the Newman book.

As far as the coil having an SRF of 118 Hz, that may be correct I have no frame of reference for such a large coil.  However, you really should do a frequency sweep on the coil.

Let's look at the motor with a coil with a 118 Hz SRF and try to explore what it may mean before you go to the bench.  Presumably you want to have the commutator pulse the coil at the 118 Hz self-resonant frequency of the coil.  Is there any particular reason to take that approach?  There is a big difference between a 118 Hz pulse train and a 118 Hz sine wave.  Your scope can look at the frequency spectrum of the pulse train and you will probably see a fundamental at 118 Hz and then harmonic spectral lines above 118 Hz that decrease in energy as the harmonic frequency goes higher.  Since the pulses will have sharp edges, the harmonics will extend quite high.  The fact that the pulses flip in polarity every half turn will have some marginal effects on the frequency spectrum.

So, the spectral line in the pulse train that is at the 118 Hz self-resonant frequency will result in the coil only showing the 45 Kohm resistance because it has zero AC impedance at the resonant frequency.  AC current associated with that spectral line will impress a sine wave of current through the coil which will generate an AC magnetic field that imparts torque on on the magnet rotor.  But wait, is that giving us any benefit?  A sine wave of current at the commutator pulsing frequency means that you push and pull on the rotor for net push of nearly zero for every individual pulse cycle.  So that means that particular "fundamental resonance" spectral line of energy in the commutator signal will not really help the rotor to spin because the two humps of the sine wave cancel each other out.

Then you have all of the higher frequency spectral lines that the coil increasingly offers an impedance to because coils block high frequencies and the higher you go the more they block.  The bottom line is that after you look at all of the effects of all of the spectral lines combined, you get pushes on the rotor to keep it spinning.  The higher-frequency spectral lines are simply blocked by the coil and do nothing.

So, is knowing the SRF of the coil really giving you important information about this pulse motor and is there anything to be gained by having the commutator pulse the coil at the SRF?  I really don't know but it doesn't look very promising to me.

This is where you start to think about two fundamental ways to analyze the operation of this motor and which is the best way to go.  You also have to think about the fact that this is a pulse circuit, and not a circuit that is built around manipulating frequencies, like for example in a transistor radio.  The two main ways of analyzing this pulse motor are in the time domain and in the frequency domain.  In general, pulse circuits are analyzed in the time domain.

So my preliminary conclusions for you to consider are that there is nothing special to be had by pulsing the coil at its SRF, and I am assuming for this whole discussion we are talking about a series SRF that has zero AC impedance at the resonant frequency.  The second conclusion is that since it is a pulse circuit, the real way to figure out how it ticks is to do a complete time domain analysis of the device.  Even if you decide to experiment with putting caps in parallel or in series with the coil, analyzing the motor in the time domain is the way to go.

SS

I posted the doc at reply 1081 for you SS

Take your time, your too quick sometimes

Quote from sonnet on January 31st, 2018, 04:26 PM

I posted the doc at reply 1081 for you SS

Thanks and I will read it.

@ SS
you are so going to kick yourself when you get this ss, I know you must be able to see it..
I'm really hopeful it will come soon.

@russ
not through all the video yet, but your doing well with a massive overload of info to communicate,I wish you might have used dashed lines to show the capacitor Xc next to your coil with self resonance in parallel. as they might see it as a real circuit drawing,and think of a LC circuit with separate components...but hey chap...your a star

@Russ
Gob smacked you got that out, and I understood the flow was all there...
but somehow we are going to have to pull people through...they are going to skip and go off on tangents and oh my life...
second part was good you used colours to show the parallel self resonance and the capacitors along the coil...

would like newman updates on every day ending in 'Y' please...
lol
every other is fine russ....for me

@ss
Hopefully you will see were the charge is stored now SS...when you finish video 15...
@Russ
Dont know how you stay so chilled russ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HvXhwrlOGI

 Just watch it, pause it and read the text in the video.
 Plasma is Plasma, it makes no difference if it is in space or here.
 It talks about a circuit and plasma.
 That is all I got to say.

Russ,

Okay I watched your latest video, but I still haven't read your document.  You expressed some interesting outside-of-the-box ideas about the short pulsing of the coil and possibly extracting more current out than you put in.  I think you might be able to devise some tests for that.  But for right now, let me throw some stuff at you for you to consider as you develop your understanding and formulate your strategy.

I watched the coax test clip also, the "homework" clip and it was very good just like you said.

I think you are getting some crossed signals with respect to the velocity factor in a coil and the potential for excess energy from the coil because of the internal inductive and capacitive coupling between turns, and in an attempt to get my point across I am going to use an ocean liner analogy for you.

There is an ocean liner at rest in a harbour, the engines are off.  There is a worker in the bow of the ocean liner and he hits a horizontal metal beam with a sledge hammer.  The horizontal beam forms part of the ribbing for the hull and it traverses the full length of the ship.  There is a worker in the stern of the ship and he has a stethoscope placed on a metal beam.  When the worker in the bow of the ship strikes the beam, the worker in the stern of the ship hears it with his stethoscope a few milliseconds later due to the propagation delay.  Makes sense?

And of course you talked about the velocity factor for the voltage signal propagating through the coil and how it is similar to a coaxial cable and both can be modeled as transmission lines.  That's fine.  So when the worker strikes the beam that is just like the transmission line setup in the coil.

Now here is where I think you might be going astray.  The fact that a signal can snake its way through the coil and possibly induce more capacitive and inductive coupling in the coil is not the real issue here.  This is all small-signal transmission line stuff happening.  But the real energy dynamics are for the full coil, and the full coil is the ocean liner.  The ocean liner has to get up to speed slowly by engaging the main engines and it might take the ocean liner half an hour to get up to speed.  And this is where I think you are crossing signals.

The pulse motor operates like molasses in January as the commutator makes contact for an "eternity" and the lumbering huge coil slowly builds up a magnetic field.  The small-signal transmission-line-effect propagation of a signal though the coil has nothing to do with the slow brute force it takes pushing on the coil to slowly build up the magnetic field in the coil.

Now, if you think the secret for extracting extra energy from the coil has to do with the small-signal transmission line effects, that's fine.  But the claim for the Newman motor is that it puts out considerable amounts of power, and the possible small-signal transmission line effects and coupling effects you are talking about are like a feeble sledge hammer tinkling on the metal rib of the ocean liner and the power to actually drive the pulse motor comes from the giant steam turbines that drive the propeller.

The feeble sledge hammer signal is very quick, sound travels much faster in steel than it does in air.  But the real action is with the main engines, and they can take a long time to move that massive ocean liner.

Those two signals are very different things and I hope you are not mixing them together.

SS

Hi John,
In a post a few pages back #1064, I implied that a electron in the field could receive enough energy to keep it in the field...This brought about electrons building up in the field where upon they (in the case of the earths field) would conduct that energy back to earth through birkeland currents as the charge potential increased...
Russ alludes to the self series resonance of a inductor building up outside the coil and the eventual charge going to earth....He says we can capture it by encasing the coil...
Your video is plastered with the electron which you was denying existed in the first place...but I can forgive you that....and states about the obsevation of a single electron flying off....I put it to you that the single electron could have been part of the current flow induced by the collective charge out there in space...
could you not see plasma as the accumulative of the charge in space reaching that energy trigger level.
Dont answer till you  have seen russ's latest video...#15
and read in post 1069, the pdf 'four letters from a mathematical physicist'
Best regards...stay chilled.

Okay Russ, so if you get what I said in my previous posting then any very short switching of the battery voltage onto the coil where the switching is so fast that you switch off before the voltage and current signal even makes it to the far end of the coil is not even going to make the main coil budge.  It literally will not budge, it takes a serious amount of electrical work to build up the magnetic field around the coil.

So even if your theory about "more out than in" was true with your very fast switching, you are still talking about something like two micro-joules in and four micro-joules out.  And, you are also expecting a "free lunch" here by assuming that you will not have to pay for any small-signal inductive or capacitive coupling. That is very problematic, why should you get a free lunch in this case?

I realize I may be missing some background in Newman theory, but I will undertake to read your document.

A few things to respond to from your clip:   The velocity factor for the coil will not change with frequency or for the size of the coil.  What determines the velocity factor is all small-signal; the unit inductance per short length of wire that forms the coil and the unit capacitance between that short length of wire and the neighbouring wires around it.  In other words, an analog to a coaxial cable, where the propagation speed and the associated velocity factor is all dependent on the immediate "small" localized environment.

You also made reference to a Newman quote, something about current that does not compete the circuit being "pushed back" (and presumably changing direction.)  If I understood this correctly Newman broke the cardinal rule about inductors; they always want current to keep flowing in the same direction.  Even the ghost of Newman cannot escape this one.

Russ,

Just one final technical point about any possible testing that you want to do on the coil.  You said that you might get "more current out than in" for your hypothetical short-switching test.  I maybe splitting hairs here, but you have to do energy-in vs. energy-out tests.  The reason is that the amount of current a coil can output is variable and dependent the amount of energy in the coil and on the load.  With an ideal coil and an ideal short (no load) the coil will be able to output an infinite amount of current.

SS

Quote from SqueezingSparks on January 31st, 2018, 06:27 PM

Russ,

Okay I watched your latest video, but I still haven't read your document.  You expressed some interesting outside-of-the-box ideas about the short pulsing of the coil and possibly extracting more current out than you put in.  I think you might be able to devise some tests for that.  But for right now, let me throw some stuff at you for you to consider as you develop your understanding and formulate your strategy.

I watched the coax test clip also, the "homework" clip and it was very good just like you said.

I think you are getting some crossed signals with respect to the velocity factor in a coil and the potential for excess energy from the coil because of the internal inductive and capacitive coupling between turns, and in an attempt to get my point across I am going to use an ocean liner analogy for you.

There is an ocean liner at rest in a harbour, the engines are off.  There is a worker in the bow of the ocean liner and he hits a horizontal metal beam with a sledge hammer.  The horizontal beam forms part of the ribbing for the hull and it traverses the full length of the ship.  There is a worker in the stern of the ship and he has a stethoscope placed on a metal beam.  When the worker in the bow of the ship strikes the beam, the worker in the stern of the ship hears it with his stethoscope a few milliseconds later due to the propagation delay.  Makes sense?

And of course you talked about the velocity factor for the voltage signal propagating through the coil and how it is similar to a coaxial cable and both can be modeled as transmission lines.  That's fine.  So when the worker strikes the beam that is just like the transmission line setup in the coil.

Now here is where I think you might be going astray.  The fact that a signal can snake its way through the coil and possibly induce more capacitive and inductive coupling in the coil is not the real issue here.  This is all small-signal transmission line stuff happening.  But the real energy dynamics are for the full coil, and the full coil is the ocean liner.  The ocean liner has to get up to speed slowly by engaging the main engines and it might take the ocean liner half an hour to get up to speed.  And this is where I think you are crossing signals.

The pulse motor operates like molasses in January as the commutator makes contact for an "eternity" and the lumbering huge coil slowly builds up a magnetic field.  The small-signal transmission-line-effect propagation of a signal though the coil has nothing to do with the slow brute force it takes pushing on the coil to slowly build up the magnetic field in the coil.

Now, if you think the secret for extracting extra energy from the coil has to do with the small-signal transmission line effects, that's fine.  But the claim for the Newman motor is that it puts out considerable amounts of power, and the possible small-signal transmission line effects and coupling effects you are talking about are like a feeble sledge hammer tinkling on the metal rib of the ocean liner and the power to actually drive the pulse motor comes from the giant steam turbines that drive the propeller.

The feeble sledge hammer signal is very quick, sound travels much faster in steel than it does in air.  But the real action is with the main engines, and they can take a long time to move that massive ocean liner.

Those two signals are very different things and I hope you are not mixing them together.

SS

Wonderfull,  your now seeing that most of what I'm. saying is possibal.  And your seeing wjere the RF energy is coming from. 

So you are getting the hard hard to understand part down... 

And yes I agree about the small inputand the magnetic feild.  But you don't grasp why Newmans motors work magneticly.  You can't skim his book,  you must master it. This is a true statement.  So,  you don't need that much current to make a massave feild...  This is the point.

To your ship... 

Re read the 3 text slides in that video 15.

I said " If there is no Induction from the magnet"

Now re watch video 14 I posted last week. This explaines this 100%. 

This induction effect IS the source of power in the second 1/2 of Newmans work... And this is what he tries  to show you in his book. 

Everything in Newmans system is adding.  And you  CAN get a current and voltage back from the coil greater than you put in.  I already demonstrated this.  I however haven't don't it own its own,  only the proof its possible. 

As I have been working on the new comutator for this to show its self on the bench. 

This coil is not really the best for this due to the bad inductave coppling.  So we get what we get but it gives us 100% confennce that its possible.  And is nothing more than fardays law of I suction,  and magent interaction with the flux from the coil. 

Re read the last 3 pages of this thred,  I nailed the point in more than 3 places.  In fact I repeated my self 3 times to make sure everyone was clear what I was showing in video 14.

Your getting there ans soon it will click. 

Greate feed back! 

~Russ