Sonnet,

I have seen how Newman models gyroscopic particles that allegedly flow along what conventional physics calls magnetic lines of force.  I believe Newman's model is set up to define the observed magnetic repulsion and attraction forces so that the forces are the same as the observed forces and the same as explained by conventional physics.

Can you do me a favor?  In five or six paragraphs what is the essence of Newman's theory and how does that apply to a Newman motor?  For example, does he talk about resonance and how it is applied?  Just a simple summary of what his proposition is.

As far as "having to believe in it" goes, Russ has the motor that is a faithful reproduction of Newman's motor.  Russ is a hard working guy and is willing to try different configurations of the motor.  So the key question is what in the summary of Newman's theory is then applied to the motor and what do we test for to find it?

If you can give me some guidelines that would be appreciated.  The pdf for the book is a series of photographs and it is not easy to read.  If you can give me a super-condensed version of the book it would be appreciated.

SS

Quote from SqueezingSparks on February 7th, 2018, 03:18 PM

If you can give me some guidelines that would be appreciated.  The pdf for the book is a series of photographs and it is not easy to read.  If you can give me a super-condensed version of the book it would be appreciated.

read all of theses attached: this is your short version along with a lot of data / math from his motors...

note the "THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH WESTLEY NEWMAN.pdf" is hit and miss, about 1/2 of it Hastings, i would read all of that.

this will give your that incite. i would also recommend reading my doc i just posted 2 posts ago, as it will help you see where i want to see. its only related to my view of the RF and it scene has been more clear that is not so clear in my doc ( its hard to read, i know, buts a bunch of thoughts... i need to make that better at some point i will)
~Russ

SS, can you add all your test procedures to a doc so we can keep track of everything? its hard to do some times on all the posts, if you back log the test procedures in that doc i can start to review those and get a clear direction on those things.

Thanks!

~Russ

Ps. most of my current tests are characterizing the coil so we can do the math with the dynamic stuff. else we dont know what it changed. but we need to do all tests. static and dynamic.

Quote

The pdf for the book is a series of photographs and it is not easy to read.  If you can give me a super-condensed version of the book it would be appreciated.

@SS
OK, i understand the book is hard to follow, and I have said I want you to see Newman's ideas, not mine...but I will try to encapsulate what he's message is...no tall order there hey. but allow me a little time this week and I'll put together a outline.

As for belief, were I come from is that you must want to believe that you can get to the truth of how the machine operates, so that a understanding can be given by yourself to others...
Take it as a magician trick if you want, explain how its done..take the belief that you are going to explain this...
I don't believe its a trick for one minute but what happens can be explained would you not agree.
regards

Quote

Sonnet: 

Thoughts
If we introduce charge into a circuit without voltage then there is no current and no change to magnetic field.

.....................

If you look at a standard battery it cannot be a charge without potential. Voltage is potential.. hmm...

(except a motionless pure magnetic field of electric potential??)

Can a charge be introduced with zero motion (force of momentum) (that is units of measure of volts)?

......................


Remember I posted there was related to E=MC^2 to volt and amp.

Pure amp is pure energy in math terms there is no vector by voltage all potential is realized as relationally motionless (static) energy in a nil volt pure amp feild.

................

The paradox is that where math is a proof 0 Volts * 1 Amp = 0 watts.

So in math the paradox of undefined.

For if there was to be .0000000001 volt 1 amp there must be motion for the power definition of a watt.

In reality amp cannot exist without volts in relation a circuit having current (amp).

In reality math volts are not energy.

1000 volts * 0 amp = 0 watt.

Therefore 1000 volts motionless are not power.

The question is volts are they energy unit measure or are they anything except a future time possibility.

Watts= Power = must have Volts and Amps or = Nothing.

Amps must have electric field and magnetic field to exist along with force of momentum.

To measure near field electromagnetic energy of a system we need both the electric and
magnetic fields near (and far) in the testing device real time to have a good view of dynamics.

Watts existed without either amps or volts when defined as an earth physical measure classically.



         

Careful talisman, you are close to something but it's not yet clearly visible.

You can have energy in volts and you can have energy in amperage.  You get power when you combine them.  Power insists on a ratio of energy per unit of time.  Time is the key factor here.  Time as I see it is a third field, derived from spin.  Spin is the mixing, the combination of the dielectric and magnetic.  To me, momentum is hidden in this third field of spin, a rotation that refuses to instantly change speed or reverse direction.  This is where inertia actually lives.  This spin is what also connects everything together, the universal fabric.  Any particle spin in space alters all the spins around it and is also altered by the spins around it.  The gradient of a single point of spin cannot change unless it has agreement with all the neighboring spins.  This is why it takes time.  It actually is time.  When you alter time, you alter power.  The energy never changes and can be thought of as the medium of space.

Then there is "energy" at the quantum level as distinct from "power" at the scope of physical input
and output in general. You can have energy only with motion and motion is always so then 0 watts
is theoretically impossible at that level even when a generator is shut off.

Near inertia is possible at the object mass level but never completely at the subatomic level.
 
It seem I was given assumptions in education stated as matter of fact. Science teachers constantly
drummed in nothing moves at absolute zero and any other idea was not only ridiculed it would earn a
wrong mark. ( :roll: funny after one failed lab experiment a 8th grade science teacher gave a -39 mark).

 https://www.livescience.com/25959-atoms-colder-than-absolute-zero.html

 

Russ,

For the inductance measurement, if you look through my postings I show how to do it using the time constant method with a bench power supply and a resistor.

For a frequency-based inductance measurement, note the Tektronix measurement method did not measure capacitance, so let's put capacitance aside and keep it simple and focus on measuring the inductance with your frequency generator and your scope.  You need to keep the concept of relative importance in your mind when considering issues like this.  A coil is a coil, and at normal operating frequencies for a given coil the inductance is the elephant, and the capacitance of the coil is a mosquito perched on the shoulder of the elephant.

In free energy research there is a near-obsession with the capacitance of coils.  In the real world of electronics the capacitance of coils is a nuisance issue, and it is not normally even considered because the circuit is not ever going to run at the super-high frequencies where the inherent capacitance of the coil corrupts the normal functioning of the coil.  When an electronics designer wants to use capacitance in relation to a coil in a circuit, he puts a capacitor on the circuit board.  So the issue of the capacitance of the coil can be put aside for now.

The issue with your big coil is how to deal with the fact that it has so much resistance and any measurement has to account for that resistance.  And we want to keep the measurement relatively simple.  I found a clip that makes a simple measurement where you can easily adapt the measurement to account for the large resistance of your coil.   It's based on measuring a 45-degree phase lag in the current for a given frequency for a given value of load resistance.  As you swap out load resistors for higher values, you will then need to increase the frequency to find the 45-degree phase lag.  Then the calculation is simple.

So the big question is, as you change load resistors and go up in frequency, does the measured inductance of the coil remain the same?  Also, how does it compare to the time-constant measurement of the inductance? 

In theory the inductance measurement should remain about the same at lower frequencies and when it starts to change noticeably let's assume for right now that is because capacitive effects are taking over.  I stress that this is a reasonable ASSUMPTION, but we aren't 100% sure.

Here is the clip and I will make follow-up comments in another posting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajycdvKyCEw

So, how do we adapt what is shown in that clip to your big coil?   All we really have to do is add the coil resistance to the formula.

You can see the procedure in the clip.  Let's say you start with a 20k load resistor.  You measure the signal generator voltage and the load resistor voltage and the only thing you are looking for is to adjust the signal generator frequency so that the phase lag on the resistor is exactly 45 degrees.

Then the formula for the inductance is L = R/(2 x Pi x frequency) so in your case the R is the (coil resistance plus the load resistance.)

Note how simple this formula is, very nice.  You don't measure amplitudes, you only measure the phase.

If we assume you get good results with a 20k load resistor, then try larger resistance values.  When you use a larger resistance value, the corresponding frequency to hit a 45 degree phase lag will increase.  Likewise, try lower resistance values and see what you get.

SS

nothing to do with above post...timing
Thoughts correct me if i'm askew
Think of the capacitance the coil builds up in the run segment.
 
Once the coil is in short mode we can add charge to the shorted coil without creating current flow as a consquence because of the fact that the coil is shorted (looped)and the potential is the same at all positions of the loop (short). Where is the potential difference in our loop/short?
by adding electrons from the air into the wire the push of the other electrons in the wire is equal in both directions so no flow (current) occurs as a consequence (so no change in magnetism) or no change to any existing status quo the charge goes into a wire with existing current flow as long as its in the short.
Does this help you any Russ.
Your coil is negatively charged.

Think of a hose pipe...

you lay your pipe down the stairs, its full of marbles....add one marble at the top and gravity dictates the flow it pushes the marbles down..(our potential)
creates a current in a direction...the electrons in a wire circuit connected to battery (voltage potential) pushes a electron from + to - (conventional theory) when an electron is introduced into one end of the wire, it causes the first atom to become negatively charged. It now has too many electrons. Assuming a continuous source of electrons, the new electron cannot exit the way it came in, so it moves to the next available neutral atom. This atom is now negative and has a surplus electron. In order to become neutral again (the preferred state of an atom), it then passes an extra electron to the next (neutral) atom, and so on, until an electron appears at the other end of the wire/pipe

but in the short
loop your pipe to the bottom of the stairs and back up then join it..(looped) your potential is negated...and no flow when you push your marble into the loop as both sides move equal negating a direction in favour of either way....even if the marbles where already circulating (current) by a huge magnet passing by the net movement either way is neutral on the current flow and the additive electron can move either way with no change to the status quo because unlike the battery's potential only allowing flow in one direction our potential is neutral..even if the potential increases it does so at every point of the wire.

When your ready open your loop back up and the quantitative amount of electrons in your wire/pipe has increased let one end of your pipe drop to the bottom of the stairs and you now have more electrons flowing out creating more current than what went in.
 regards

Quote from talisman on February 8th, 2018, 11:07 AM

Then there is "energy" at the quantum level as distinct from "power" at the scope of physical input
and output in general. You can have energy only with motion and motion is always so then 0 watts
is theoretically impossible at that level even when a generator is shut off.

Is spin or rotation not motion, kinetic energy?  Spin is everywhere down to the smallest quantum division.  All is in motion.

Why do you suppose Mr. Tesla determined that all energy is actually kinetic?   I think Russ would agree.

Harvest spin and you have power unless by the very act of reducing the spin, you also change time.  Energy per unit of time is power.

The Grand Creator left nothing to chance.  The universe does seem quite magical when you begin to see how well it is architected.

@Talisman
What flows is not the voltage but the charge, and that flow is called current. Voltage can be without a current, if you have a single charge, that charge induces a voltage in all space, even if it's empty. Voltage, in the most physical way, is a scalar field that determines the potential energy per unit charge at every point in space.

Now, you can't have currents without voltages because if there's a current there's a charge moving, and every charge produces a voltage, but you can have currents without voltage differences in space. For example, if you have a charged sphere, and you make it rotate, the charge will be on the surface and by rotating the sphere you will have a current on the surface, but the voltage is the same in all surface. Also magnetization of materials can induce currents by the same way.

If you introduce a charge in a circuit without a voltage it just doesn't move?

That's true, it won't move, unless you have some changing magnetic field that may introduce "voltage differences" between the same point, making ∇×E≠0∇×E≠0, although that wouldn't be electrostatic voltage the way you're seeing it.
regards

Sorry I would be confused if I thought a charge was current with my way of thinking.

Quote

Sonnet: 

Thoughts
If we introduce charge into a circuit without voltage then there is no current and no change to magnetic field.

What flows is not the voltage but the charge, and that flow is called current.

That's true, it won't move, unless you have some changing magnetic field.

Sonnet,

Perhaps you are thinking along the lines of an uncharged wire instead of a charge like a battery.

When the magnet is swung past (motion) there is an induced current in the wire afterward then the
wire is not without voltage with a load.

If there is a load the current flows as potential (voltage) is realized.

What happens when there is no load? hysteresis? magnetic field instead of electric field?

I am not so versed in those aspects.
   
 

Quote

If there is a load the current flows as potential (voltage) is realized.

@talisman
I wish to be taken literally.
There is no potential difference whilst our coil is shorted....No flow to earth...No flow to batteries.
Think about what I have written.
Regards.

In a shorted coil this is a load itself (ends shorted).
It must be intermittent or the current has to be below capacity to not have heat.

What JNW is a system of interaction between parts.

Sort of the idea with the ringing HF and intermittent short.

Explanation of coil shorting free energy - debunkfied- video you tube

Russ,

If you are still having issues measuring the inductance of the big coil then my advice is to take a step back and do a dress rehearsal on a smaller more "normal sized" coil.

You can measure the inductance three ways, 1) the time constant method,  2)  the 45 degree phase shift method, and 3) the LC resonator method.

And if you want a bonus measurement, you can do the discharge into a capacitor method.

Assuming that all goes well with the dress rehearsal with the smaller coil, then move on to the big coil.

I overheard you say something like "I'll measure the capacitance of the big coil first and that will help me determine the inductance."  Don't even go there, that is a totally wrong statement.  Like I said, put the whole issue of the capacitance of the coil on the back burner and master the measurement of the inductance of the coil first.  A coil is an inductor, it is not a capacitor.  When was the last time you saw a capacitor with a wire shorting the two capacitor plates together?  The capacitance in a coil is a transient phenomenon that only exists at certain AC frequencies.

SS

Quote from SqueezingSparks on February 9th, 2018, 01:24 PM

Russ,

If you are still having issues measuring the inductance of the big coil then my advice is to take a step back and do a dress rehearsal on a smaller more "normal sized" coil.

You can measure the inductance three ways, 1) the time constant method,  2)  the 45 degree phase shift method, and 3) the LC resonator method.

And if you want a bonus measurement, you can do the discharge into a capacitor method.

Assuming that all goes well with the dress rehearsal with the smaller coil, then move on to the big coil.

I overheard you say something like "I'll measure the capacitance of the big coil first and that will help me determine the inductance."  Don't even go there, that is a totally wrong statement.  Like I said, put the whole issue of the capacitance of the coil on the back burner and master the measurement of the inductance of the coil first.  A coil is an inductor, it is not a capacitor.  When was the last time you saw a capacitor with a wire shorting the two capacitor plates together?  The capacitance in a coil is a transient phenomenon that only exists at certain AC frequencies.

SS

Yes,  thst is what I was doing,  I have one on my. Bench Im doing to conferm the methods. 


However what I just observed makes verry good sence. 

The phase shift hapens at about 117.4 hz. 

This phase shift nails down what I was thinking.  It is from my. Past experance that if you "ring" a coil and. mesure the ring cycle you can get the resonant frequncy. 

There for capatacve after that frequncy and inductave before.  (I'm talking about the SRF) 

With that said.  When testing I passed that phase shift..  And it was right at the Frequncy that I feel is the SRF. 

115-120hz. 

Here is what I'm talking about. 

https://youtu.be/L4mV0hNEwmI

To conferm the responce change with a change in inductance I tested the same with a steel rod in side. 

https://youtu.be/Ia0CzY5KQb4

For me this is proof that  what I'm thinking Is corect. 


So SS,  I understand what your saying  about the coil having a wire so it can't be a cap. 

However,  i do agree that this coil can act more like a cap than an inductor.  And thst it can be treated more like a cap with bad ESR.  And treating it this way we can still do cap tests on it as if it was a cap. 

For me this makes sence.  Thus stating what I did makes sence.  Because if its inductive properties stand out up till 118hz then the 118hz - (let's say 23mhz)  then for me. It makes sence to treat it as such. 

What I'm Saying is that for a coil with "more" Capatance than Inductnace,  Then if we can find the SRF we can back calulate the Inductance "IF" we know the capatance. 

Now if we add extra capatance we can build a curve and plot out the change and see where our true capatance is.  And again get more points to build the inductance chart. 

Hope this makes sence why I would do this.  Not that its the best method,  it is at least a methiod. 

Thanks for your help so far.  Little at a time. 

~Russ

Russ,

This is uncharted territory for me but I can make some comments and suggest some things.   For starters it does appear that you are seeing a parallel resonance phenomena at around 118 Hz where the coil is blocking the signal.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that you did test a smaller coil and your inductance measurements all checked out.

With the big coil, the time constant test is essentially a DC type of test.  We saw the curves and they looked good also.  Knowing that the coil is about 45 kohm in resistance, and considering how the data at this point is pretty shaky, I would try the time constant test with different resistors, say 10k, 40k, 100k and 1 meg resistors.  Hopefully you will get the same inductance.  Note that for the 1 meg resistor, the time constant will be relatively short, and that might bring some capacitive effects into play.  If you see the calculated inductance start to deviate with larger resistors you should investigate further.  Finally, I am wondering if by chance you got your units off by powers of 10 when you did the time constant calculation.  The time is in seconds and the resistance is in ohms.

Assuming that you get a good inductance measurement with the time constant, and then you move onto the phase shift test and you get 45 degrees phase shift with say a 10K resistor and a 13 Hz excitation, then hopefully the inductance calculation will be the same as for the time constant measurement.  In theory the excitation frequency of 13 Hz will mean that the capacitive effects in the big coil will not be seen at all.   Then move onto a larger resistor, say 100k and see what you get.

If things are looking wonky then I would take a step back and just do the signal generator to coil to load resistor setup and do frequency sweeps and watch carefully as to what is taking place.  If you ignore capacitance for a second, then the voltage across the resistor is supposed to decrease the higher you go in frequency.  You can try that for a few values of resistor.  Just sweep the coil by hand, take your time, and see what's what.  You can see how the voltage divider network is operating and also watch the phase.

One thing for sure is that without any capacitance the voltage on a given load resistor is supposed to drop the higher you go in frequency.

Here is an example:  Let's suppose the load resistor is 500k.   That means the load resistor is big enough so that we can ignore the coil resistance because we are just sweeping and getting ball park measurements.  Let's suppose the coil is 5000 Henries.

You will set your signal generator to 20 volts peak-to-peak to make life easy when it comes to looking at the resistor voltages.

So what's the impedance of the 5000 Henry coil at 10 Hz, 100 Hz and 1000 Hz?

It's (2 x Pi x frequency x inductance) for the impedance so that's:

314 Kohm at 10 Hz
3.14 Mohm at 100 Hz
31.4 Mohn at 1000 Hz

So you can see the effective resitances are very high at even low frequencies.

Therefore, with a 500 Kohm load resistor you can see how at 1000 Hz most of the voltage drop is going to be across the coil.  (i.e.; 500 Kohm is much smaller than 31.4 Mohm)

So being uncharted territory because the coil is so big, and it has a high resistance, you need to feel your way around.

SS

Quote

In a shorted coil this is a load itself (ends shorted).
It must be intermittent or the current has to be below capacity to not have heat.

What JNW is a system of interaction between parts.

Sort of the idea with the ringing HF and intermittent short.

good find on the video talisman, bad choice of username for it though...
he shows a circuit earthed by tesla...This is not a good example for JWN coil.
Remember Newmans coil is not earthed and isolated from the battery in the short.
Regards

Maybe this find could help a bit.

The transport of energy according to the laws of geometrical optics.

Energy=E
Unit of Volume=V
Unit of area=A
Unit of time=T

Energy Density= Energy per unit volume = dE/dV

Flux = time rate of energy flow = dE/dT = F

Flux Density = flux per unit area = dF/dA

(adapted from national bureau of standard ref material 2031 metal on quartz filters for spectrophotometry)


 rev.1 8 pm PST
 

Russ,

Here is a decent little LC resonance calculator:  http://www.ham-radio.com/lc.html

I punched in 4400 Henries and 10 microfarads and got 0.75 Hertz.

So the joke is on me because I suggested 1000 uF and 100 uF.   Clearly the resonant frequency would be so low that presumably the resistance of the coil would dampen the resonance a lot and prevent even one full cycle from being captured on the DSO.

It's just another reminder about how big 4400 Henries of inductance really is.

SS