BTW, the 22k resistor and 330pF capacitor forms a low-pass filter with roll-off at about 22kHz based on my calculations.
http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/filter/filter_2.html

Frequencies passed below 22kHz are well within the full audible spectrum.

If C were higher, the cut-off would be lower.

Quote from Matt Watts on December 21st, 2016, 12:51 AM

BTW, the 22k resistor and 330pF capacitor forms a low-pass filter with roll-off at about 22kHz based on my calculations.
http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/filter/filter_2.html

adding or subtracting from driver signal?

Quote from Gunther Rattay on December 21st, 2016, 02:27 AM

adding or subtracting from driver signal?

Not sure what you're asking Gunther--amplitude or phase?

I'm assuming you mean phase.  The driver circuit adds five junction delays between the signal the VCO creates and the signal the PLL phase detector sees via the low-pass filter.  Is that important?   I can't say for sure, but it is odd to me we need so many transistors in the driver circuit unless those delays are somehow relevant.  They certainly aren't there for current gain when all that gain is bled back off through base resistors.  My hunch is the junction delays alter the phase angle just the right amount to effectively attack the water molecule.  The bad news is this altered phase angle must exactly correspond with the attached VIC in order to be effective.  And the worse news is we don't know the exact phase angle that is needed for any generic driver/VIC implementation, though I do suspect it all is based around the water molecule arrangement--the angles between the two Hydrogen atoms with the Oxygen atom acting as a fulcrum.

I almost have the feeling we need a means to measure electronically these angles, then develop some sort of scanning routine that will walk through them a degree at a time until we determine the exact requirements.  This may take some pretty elaborate test equipment unless we can find an algorithm suitable to do this automatically.

phase :)


no worries!

PGen 2.0 has 4 channels and supports phase shift at same or multiple freq down to 12.5 ns timeframe for shift.

100% agree we need to understand how the signals work and what the PLL i looking for, only way to really do that is build it and see what it dose.

im not so sure looking at the water will help us Matt,

at least not with our current test equipment.

~Russ

My findings using this driver is that it only worked pulsing below 10khz. If you go higher 50%du is no longer maintained due transistor bias etc. Way to complex! So designing the cell and coils resonance freq. must be below 10khz. Unfortunately my setup uses higher frequency and i switched to mosfet instead.
~webmug

Quote from Webmug on December 23rd, 2016, 02:41 PM

My findings using this driver is that it only worked pulsing below 10khz. If you go higher 50%du is no longer maintained due transistor bias etc. Way to complex! So designing the cell and coils resonance freq. must be below 10khz. Unfortunately my setup uses higher frequency and i switched to mosfet instead.
~webmug

Thanks for the in put!
~Russ

A little at a time.  Seems like this week has just flown by.

If I can find room on my desk to setup my signal generator, we should have some confirmation pretty soon whether this circuit is good to go.

I'll check this much out, then add the voltage control and check it again.   I have an alternate voltage control circuit I want to test also--if the two types behave the same, I'll probably go with my version since it's more straight forward and doesn't need the big 2N3055 TO-3 can.

BTW, the TO-220 you see on the right is a LM2940C 5 volt regulator and the 8 pin dip on the left is a HCPL2631 optocoupler.  A HCPL2611 would be better since we don't need dual inputs, but it's what I have at the moment.

Matt
Why you dont use Ronnie's driver - it is fully tested and working circuit?
andy

Good Matt. Nice work. To make room.
  Take arm. Place arm on desk. Swipe arm all the way left. Then all the way right. Remove arm. Desk has more room now. See team work!!! Works every time.

~Russ

Quote from andy on December 23rd, 2016, 10:41 PM

Matt
Why you dont use Ronnie's driver - it is fully tested and working circuit?
andy

Andy. Where that posted?  As far as I'm concerned there is no public knolage of that circuit posted.

If it is please link it here.

Also we want to make a basic barbones driver and voltage control.

Somthing simple that works. This is all based on stans VIC card. So is what Ronnie did.

Its also nice to test and build Somthing like this so we can get out heads around that signal and why stan did what he did.

Any how just my thoughts. ;)

~Russ

Quote from andy on December 23rd, 2016, 10:41 PM

Matt
Why you dont use Ronnie's driver - it is fully tested and working circuit?
andy

The driver circuit is circa 1980/90s. Fortunately, discrete components were used, and not a microcontroller, at the time. It would be a challenge to reverse engineer if it were developed as such. It was kept simple.

R&D could have progressed beyond 1998, on the circuitry, if he didn't get killed.

If a circuit is designed, it's designed to work.

Quote from andy on December 23rd, 2016, 10:41 PM

Why you dont use Ronnie's driver - it is fully tested and working circuit?

Simple answer...

Overkill--as Russ alluded to.

Quote from Matt Watts on December 24th, 2016, 12:12 AM

Simple answer...

Overkill--as Russ alluded to.

Your still awake. Go to bed. Lol.

~Russ

Matt and Ronnie
If the signal from PLL output "G" doing directly to "G" cell driver , then in the gate time TIP120 is turn-on and primary is also turn-on.
Please consider how the VIC behave in that case --- maybe half core of primary and L2 is saturated or became like electro-magnet in the gate time? How this influence the secondary and L1 and water cap interaction in the gate time?
thank for your attention.
andy

In the gate time when primary is turn-on , this cause that the core of primary became like magnet, The current that  flow thru water gap enter to L2 choke and generate magnetic field that is interacting with magnetic field of the core ( primary is turn-on ) - this cause the choke of current flow - restriction  current.
Sorry for my english.
andy

I finished the breadboarded figure 4 & 5 circuit.

Not sure what to make of things here.

When the driver is on, I get a pretty solid rail voltage output, but when the driver is off, it isn't really off.  I get the following waveform that contains a 60 cycle hum, plus a 13kHz oscillation.  It's almost like the driver is intentionally trying to grab any kind of noise and amplify it.  I'm wondering if I should power this with a battery and try to isolate the power going to my scope...

Anyone else able to confirm the same kind of output?

A note I think is worth mentioning is the Figure 4, Voltage Amplitude Control does not regulate the voltage in any specific way.  One might call it a relative power control, but certainly not a voltage control.  The reason I say this is because if you change the battery voltage, the output voltage of Figure 4 also changes.  There is no voltage reference in this circuit.

I actually think if we truly want a voltage regulator for this application, an LM338 as pictured below would be by far preferable.

Matt i built bouth circuits and worked fine..what did you use on the J input on amplitude control?

I omitted Figure 4 in my schematic. I don't understand its true intention and behavior yet, where a voltage regulator or a regulated variable supply makes more sense.

Also note, we need constant voltage and nil constant current flowing to the primary. If constant current over time, we would not hit the target voltage.

Same components reproduce the same results. Do you need new & proper components?

Your circuit is picking up noise, like an antenna.

Quote from adys15 on December 26th, 2016, 10:54 PM

Matt i built bouth circuits and worked fine..

I never said the circuits didn't work.  Just seems like "Voltage Amplitude Control" should mean just that.  The voltage should stay where I set it regardless of the input battery voltage.

Quote from adys15 on December 26th, 2016, 10:54 PM

what did you use on the J input on amplitude control?

I used a 50k pot with 1k's on each leg connected to the base of the TIP120.  This adjusts the range pretty decent, best I can tell.  I didn't use the op-amps since the TIP120 is already pretty sensitive.

Quote from haxar on December 26th, 2016, 10:59 PM

I omitted Figure 4 in my schematic. I don't understand its true intention and behavior yet, where a voltage regulator or a regulated variable supply makes more sense.

In an automobile, the voltage can swing all over the place, so it is a little confusing to me why Stan wouldn't use a true linear voltage regulator.

Quote from haxar on December 26th, 2016, 10:59 PM

Same components reproduce the same results. Do you need new & proper components?

No, I have the correct parts and they behave as I would expect, but not I as would have chosen if it were my design.  Why the difference is something we will have to look into.

Quote from haxar on December 26th, 2016, 11:01 PM

Your circuit is picking up noise, like an antenna.

Those transistors in the drive circuit are quite sensitive--probably for good reason.

For some unknown reason my power supply is bleeding line signal into the ground.  I'm getting a full 60 cycle sine wave at 174 volts peak-to-peak when I touch my scope probe on the PSU ground.  This has happened to me before and I can't recall what I did to fix it.  Fortunately there is no current there, but there is voltage and that will screw me up doing any more testing until I figure out what is the problem and get it fixed.  If I can't seem to fix it, then I guess I'll have to use a battery to run the VIC.  Crikey, it's always something...

Matt
Your PSU is not grounded correctly.

Voltage control (Fig 3) J output.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuquS-qPHFQ