Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #100, on December 15th, 2016, 11:32 PM »
Quote from ~Russ on December 15th, 2016, 11:25 PM
also post the sim again I'm installing it...
Didn't add those two other components since I don't think we'll see anything with a fix signal coming in.  Might be something we need to try on a bread board and see if we notice anything funky on the scope.

Notice that down spike is reaching almost 700 volts peak to peak.  Crazy stuff.  I almost hope it's just the simulator being nuts.

haxar

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #101, on December 15th, 2016, 11:35 PM »
I wouldn't trust a simulator with a resonant tank circuit. There's actual physics going on. :P
Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #102, on December 15th, 2016, 11:40 PM »
There's another bodge. Regarding that 100uF cap and the transistor beside it. I have not traced.

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #103, on December 15th, 2016, 11:49 PM »
Quote from haxar on December 15th, 2016, 11:40 PM
There's another bodge. Regarding that 100uF cap and the transistor beside it. I have not traced.
Speaking of bodges, can you tell where that little red jumper off of the 22k resistor goes?   It seems to go under the 100uF cap, but then I can't tell where it goes next.  I'm guessing to a switch, then over to the BNC test port, but I'm not sure.

haxar

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #104, on December 16th, 2016, 12:13 AM »Last edited on December 16th, 2016, 02:43 AM
Per Don, that red wire goes to the Analog Frequency switch, then its center pole goes right to the test jack. (red wire goes to the trailing primary coil lead)

The switch is wired just for the test jack.

The unoccupied TS2 block was originally for the test jack, which is PLL pin 14 and ground. Should give a hint into what was being tested. In this case, feedback.

The green oscillation LED actually comes from the NORed gate output of the 4001 chip @ pin 11, not from the 4017 dividers. Both NOR gate input posts are tied to the gated frequency sub-circuit. This LED isn't connected to the VIC components, but to the gated frequency pin outside the card.
Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #105, on December 16th, 2016, 02:20 AM »Last edited on December 16th, 2016, 03:17 AM
Cell driver traced.

The 22k in the cell driver should be 1k ohm. During a previous tracing, the 22k got mixed up with the RC bodge.

The C (collector) and E (emitter) are switched up on the silkscreen for the 2 PNP transistors and the other bodge near the 100uF cap on Don's sketch, but wired as they should.

100uF cap is a bypass cap over the 5V rail.
Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #106, on December 16th, 2016, 03:30 AM »
This cell driver is becoming to look like a protection circuit. As I look.

How is an opto-isolator any different.

HHO-Dan

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #107, on December 16th, 2016, 04:53 AM »
Correct me if Im wrong...It's not like me to be wrong

GPS has the (SM) VIC (non twin core) on the bench in the back room and is not using the (SM) driver?
From what I have read over the last 2 years...
Most any driver should work for bench testing?

~Russ

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #108, on December 16th, 2016, 08:11 AM »
Quote from HHO-Dan on December 16th, 2016, 04:53 AM
Correct me if Im wrong...It's not like me to be wrong

GPS has the (SM) VIC (non twin core) on the bench in the back room and is not using the (SM) driver?
From what I have read over the last 2 years...
Most any driver should work for bench testing?
Dan,

It's not that you're wrong. The fact is nobody I know except for Ronnie can say they really got this circuit working properly.

And the only reason I think Ronnie got it working with any other simple driver is because he understands how it's supposed to function.

However if the driver circuit helps set up the proper signals so that the VIC can be tuned easy then our best bet is to understand what the signal is supposed to be and how the driver circuit performs that function. If it's nothing more than on time and off time tuning that's fantastic. But it's hard to say at the moment if that's the only thing. So for us at the moment it feels better to have one piece of the mystery solved. The driver circuit might solve some variable. It's kind of like having a million dollars sitting in front of you and instead of using it to buy a car going to the junkyard and trying to build one from scratch. We know someone else has done it better than we can so why waste the time to build it again.

Seems there was a lot of silly and important things added to this verry off driver circuit. Aka. If it worked for stan might as well use it!!

Just my 2 cents.
~Russ

HMS-776

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #109, on December 16th, 2016, 10:42 AM »
This hobby is definately getting challenging. I keep thinking I'm right there but then find another problem to fix.

~Russ

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #110, on December 16th, 2016, 11:09 AM »
Quote from HMS-776 on December 16th, 2016, 10:42 AM
This hobby is definately getting challenging. I keep thinking I'm right there but then find another problem to fix.
haha and the more and more i look over theses PCB's i think to my self,,, there is a lot more here than we might have thought lol

its complex but more so now than ever, i guess thats because we are seeing all the things that need to happen :)

~Russ

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #111, on December 16th, 2016, 11:13 AM »
Yes, looking at one device that solves dozens of little problems is a daunting task to comprehend and repeat for yourself.  It shouldn't be that difficult, but it is what it is and we'll have to get our heads wrapped around it one way or another.

Hopefully when Ronnie gets some of his matters settled, he can give us a booster shot.

~Russ

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #112, on December 16th, 2016, 11:23 AM »
Quote from Matt Watts on December 16th, 2016, 11:13 AM
Yes, looking at one device that solves dozens of little problems is a daunting task to comprehend and repeat for yourself.  It shouldn't be that difficult, but it is what it is and we'll have to get our heads wrapped around it one way or another.

Hopefully when Ronnie gets some of his matters settled, he can give us a booster shot.
yeah i agree Matt, also Ronnie, Enjoy your what you can of this holiday season and when you feel you have the time please go back and add to this list:
Quote from gpssonar on December 5th, 2016, 02:18 PM
1:yes
2:yes
3:yes it helps
4:yes
5:yes and I got more to say about this in another post.
6:got more to say about this one as well in another post.
I'd like to hear more about 5 and 6

http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2785.msg41203#msg41203

~Russ

HMS-776

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #113, on December 16th, 2016, 03:06 PM »
So on the drive circuit

I just realized the obvious. The 47k & 470 resistors are used to pull each transistor base high or low depending on whether its a pnp or npn. This ensures they shut off completely or partially? I need to look at the datasheets.

The 470 on the TIP120 is just a base current limiting resistor which we already know.

haxar

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #114, on December 16th, 2016, 03:08 PM »
Quote from HMS-776 on December 16th, 2016, 03:06 PM
I just realized the obvious. The 47k & 470 resistors are used to pull each transistor base high or low depending on whether its a pnp or npn. This ensures they shut off completely
Yep. When Low, their bases are pulled. Not floating.
Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #115, on December 16th, 2016, 03:11 PM »
The TIP120 apparently does its own pull-down.

Gunther Rattay

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #116, on December 17th, 2016, 02:44 AM »
Quote from haxar on December 16th, 2016, 03:11 PM
The TIP120 apparently does its own pull-down.
because it's a darlington transistor couple.

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #117, on December 17th, 2016, 03:10 AM »Last edited on December 17th, 2016, 03:18 AM
Quote from Gunther Rattay on December 17th, 2016, 02:44 AM
because it's a darlington transistor couple.
With internal resistors and a protection diode, having a current gain (HFE) of around 2500.  :)

A very useful device to have in your component box, especially if you know how to make one of these.

HMS-776

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #118, on December 17th, 2016, 06:54 AM »
If we look at the datasheets and calculate the base current on each transistor I think we might see that there is no bias voltage, but that depends on the voltages applied to Vcc & Vee?

haxar

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #119, on December 17th, 2016, 12:28 PM »Last edited on December 17th, 2016, 01:37 PM
Quote from Matt Watts on December 15th, 2016, 11:49 PM
Speaking of bodges, can you tell where that little red jumper off of the 22k resistor goes?   It seems to go under the 100uF cap, but then I can't tell where it goes next.  I'm guessing to a switch, then over to the BNC test port, but I'm not sure.
After a second look, by the 1k resistors, the silkscreen says 47k in those 2 places. The silkscreen contradicts the resistor.

Is that third strip brown (470) or orange (47k)? The colors can look the same in this image. I'll need to scan through the estate to confirm.

A 47k ohm pull-up and pull-down makes more sense than using a 470 ohm. The path of least resistance is always taken.

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #120, on December 17th, 2016, 06:10 PM »Last edited on December 17th, 2016, 06:13 PM
Yep. The pull-up/down resistors to the last 2 base transistors, Stan used 470 ohm on the cards instead of 47k ohm.

Find out which works best, and why it was replaced.

firepinto

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #121, on December 17th, 2016, 09:25 PM »
I spent many hours scanning Don's work and the photos to find a lot of differences that I logged in this thread: http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2160.0.  Is there any errors in the driver circuit that need to be reviewed or changed?

haxar

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #122, on December 17th, 2016, 10:36 PM »Last edited on December 17th, 2016, 10:38 PM
Quote from firepinto on December 17th, 2016, 09:25 PM
I spent many hours scanning Don's work and the photos to find a lot of differences that I logged in this thread: http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2160.0.  Is there any errors in the driver circuit that need to be reviewed or changed?
It's good that we have independent peer review of Don's photos. Making revisions will help.

I haven't seen that thread (I wasn't there yet). I modified my schematic at:

Previous page @ highlight:

Bodge RC filter from primary sense trace attached to PLL pin 3

This page @ highlight:

22k resistor mix-up w/ RC filter in cell driver circuit

~Russ

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #123, on December 17th, 2016, 10:40 PM »Last edited on December 17th, 2016, 10:52 PM
ok, currently on my bench,

it appears that i can not get it going with a 5Vpk-pk Sig from the Gen. But Va must be 3V or so, it Can not be the same as the driver source. my sig gen should have enough current to work but maybe it dose not.
Update, tested this by shorting G to 0v and its fine. so 5V and 5Vpk-pk dose work. just not with my Gen. hummm...


 guess that's due to the need for a change big enough to flow the current on the first stage...

the 100uf cap dose smooth out the Signal a tinny bit on the first stage.

the 22K and .33nf do feed all the way back in to that base of Q7, there is a small peak that happens with it in place, prob not enugh to worry about, but i think its not for that, its for the PLL, if its connected there is a nice slow curve, showing that there is an RC time constant there. maybe checking for when the primary is fully on?



there is a delay when the Sig turns off and the Tip120 turns off, they all turn on at the same time. but they do not turn off at the same time.


ok updated Driver circuit V 1.2 with Values and Numbers for Input points and component's

please try to stick to this component numbering system as we need to stay on the same page when talking about this thing...

~Russ

PS, Uploading Video on this testing. post it when its up.  also note that in the video my sig gen dose not turn off the circuit when at 0V so i had to drop the voltage of the Va and Vb to 3V.


 
Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #124, on December 17th, 2016, 10:58 PM »
V1.2