Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board

~Russ

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #125, on December 17th, 2016, 10:59 PM »
Quote from firepinto on December 17th, 2016, 09:25 PM
I spent many hours scanning Don's work and the photos to find a lot of differences that I logged in this thread: http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2160.0.  Is there any errors in the driver circuit that need to be reviewed or changed?
ah i was looking for those lol

yeah its not right, those patent drawings have things missing!!!! ~Russ

haxar

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #126, on December 17th, 2016, 11:04 PM »Last edited on December 17th, 2016, 11:37 PM
What's missing, other than the bodges? Not all schematics are created equal. :P

Is the Rigol Sig Gen grounded well to the circuit, Russ? Maybe a pull-down resistor at its output would help, or to the base of Q6?

The Rigol Sig Gen could have an output impedance. Check in your settings if it's there and set.
see below
Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #127, on December 17th, 2016, 11:36 PM »Last edited on December 17th, 2016, 11:54 PM
C2 cap should be grounded. It's only for the PLL @ input pin 3. It's not connected to the base of Q7.
Quote from ~Russ on December 17th, 2016, 10:40 PM
Update, tested this by shorting G to 0v and its fine. so 5V and 5Vpk-pk dose work. just not with my Gen. hummm...
Well, since the base of Q6 is already pulled-up @ power up, the Sig Gen should short G to ground.

This is a PNP, and the behavior is opposite to an NPN.

When Low, Q6 is On.

For an NPN as an example, when Low, Q6 would be Off.
Quote from ~Russ on December 17th, 2016, 10:40 PM
please try to stick to this component numbering system as we need to stay on the same page when talking about this thing...
We can focus on your schematic now. Just let us know. ;P

~Russ

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #129, on December 17th, 2016, 11:58 PM »
Quote from haxar on December 17th, 2016, 11:36 PM
C2 cap should be grounded. It's only for the PLL @ input pin 3. It's not connected to the base of Q7.Well, since the base of Q6 is already
when i looked the cap was indeed connected to the base of Q7.

have a look again. if I'm wrong... ok, but i thought it was to the base of Q7, hummm. the more eyes checking the better :)

~Russ

haxar

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #130, on December 18th, 2016, 12:18 AM »
Quote from ~Russ on December 17th, 2016, 11:58 PM
have a look again. [...] the more eyes checking the better :)
Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #131, on December 18th, 2016, 12:22 AM »Last edited on December 18th, 2016, 12:23 AM
Thanks to the trace I did in 2011. It's helping a lot. :P

http://open-source-energy.org/?msg=41255

~Russ

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #132, on December 18th, 2016, 12:51 AM »
ah crap...  i need to fix that in my schematic :)
goof catch!
~Russ

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #133, on December 18th, 2016, 01:52 AM »
Yeah, I agree with Haxar.  Looks to me like it connects to the ground side of the 470 ohm resistor, which makes for a tidy little filter network going back to the PLL feedback comparator.

When I get my parts, I'll bread board from the PLL forward and see if these two components actually make the PLL find and lock on anything as I would expect them to do.

firepinto

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #134, on December 18th, 2016, 07:06 AM »
Quote from haxar on December 17th, 2016, 11:04 PM
What's missing, other than the bodges? Not all schematics are created equal. :P

Is the Rigol Sig Gen grounded well to the circuit, Russ? Maybe a pull-down resistor at its output would help, or to the base of Q6?

The Rigol Sig Gen could have an output impedance. Check in your settings if it's there and set.
see below
I had found a duplicate input circuit to the J signal input on the analog voltage circuit. http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2160.msg30523#msg30523

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #135, on December 18th, 2016, 03:27 PM »
N8, I'm pretty sure, at least in manual voltage control mode, we don't need to worry too much about this.  I could be mistaken depending upon where the input might come from.  With the 1uF filter cap, I doubt very much the voltage control circuit could respond within a single cycle.

For those sketching up schematics, I see that we need two complete versions:
  One that shows the entire system as found in the estate photos and
  A second version that has the manual mode test board for driving a VIC during its development.

Both of these schematics should be peer reviewed and anchored in stone for future reference.  I fully intend on drawing the later one along with boards for people to populate and start testing with.  What I want to do just prior to this is to try some tests with the PLL to rule out any possibility of the PLL being mandatory for proper operation.  Right now with that feedback via the 22k resistor, I think the PLL deserves a sincere look before making a pure driver-only board.  So I need to bread board this and run it through some paces.

~Russ

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #136, on December 18th, 2016, 04:11 PM »Last edited on December 18th, 2016, 04:16 PM
Yeah Matt. I'm on the same page. However for this time we need to stick to the basics. We need to pulse a coil.

All other work should be done in a new thred. Or we can just ask for Ronnie to post all his hard work. This away we can figure on moving forward. And less time repeting  our selfs. 

So back to the main topic of this thred. Understanding how Stan Meyer fule cell works. 

So yes I agree that we should check out that feed back on the PLL. I have a feeling that it's just to keep the coil from going to far one way. Aka. Keep the pulses in a range.

But yes. If you can give me a schematic you plan on testing "basic driver with PLL feed back" then I'll test it with you. I have a feeling its nothing to worry about.

So after I get this simple driver working. ( and at the moment it is working but need to add the opto isolator so everything works at 5v)

We can start testing the rest of the system. (VIC)

Hope your up to help me try to tune this thing Ronnie. Becuse if your not there No hope at the moment. I feel we only have 50% of the uderstanding we need to really make this VIC work.at least to get it tuned.

If Your up for Skype it will be needed. Same as Matt get us 3 on the same call and we can make this work on my / Matt's bench. Then and only then we can help you teach it.

Its to important for us to keep going and make no progress.

~Russ

gpssonar

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #137, on December 18th, 2016, 04:33 PM »Last edited on December 18th, 2016, 04:49 PM
I should have some free time after tomorrow if things goes well in court tomorrow. Just been trying to heal up after the operation last week and keep my mind clear for court tomorrow. I been looking in and keeping up with what has been going on. I'll be back and help out.

~Russ

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #138, on December 18th, 2016, 05:23 PM »Last edited on December 18th, 2016, 05:26 PM
Quote from gpssonar on December 18th, 2016, 04:33 PM
I should have some free time after tomorrow if things goes well in court tomorrow. Just been trying to heal up after the operation last week and keep my mind clear for court tomorrow. I been looking in and keeping up with what has been going on. I'll be back and help out.
Good deal Ronnie. And yeah. I don't blame you one bit.

Good luck. And be true. Be you.

~Russ

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #139, on December 18th, 2016, 06:16 PM »
Quote from ~Russ on December 18th, 2016, 04:11 PM
So after I get this simple driver working. ( and at the moment it is working but need to add the opto isolator so everything works at 5v)
See attached.  I think this will work fine at 5 volts and it will also invert the input signal the way we need it, so low is coil off.  Just remember to add an output pull-up resistor between 330 and 4000 ohms--smaller is faster, larger is more power savings.
Quote from gpssonar on December 18th, 2016, 04:33 PM
I should have some free time after tomorrow if things goes well in court tomorrow. Just been trying to heal up after the operation last week and keep my mind clear for court tomorrow.
If you catch any flack in court, tell them you really need at least your private laptop back because it has all your important tax information that you'll need to file--unless of course the judge will go with you to your IRS audit and defend you there.    ;)

I may be a little busy tomorrow with work and getting my RV sold, but I'll try to be available if possible.  If not, Russ, please take good notes and have a good plan ready to talk about.

haxar

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #140, on December 19th, 2016, 12:39 AM »
Quote from Matt Watts on December 18th, 2016, 03:27 PM
For those sketching up schematics, I see that we need two complete versions:
  One that shows the entire system as found in the estate photos and
  A second version that has the manual mode test board for driving a VIC during its development.
New revised manual adjusting VIC schematic:

http://open-source-energy.org/?msg=41523

N8 would have the other kind.

sebosfato

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #141, on December 19th, 2016, 05:06 AM »
There may be infinite frequencies that could work to cause water to go into resonance but there's also infinite frequencies that would not work
The PLL just allow to set up a lc oscillation and keep it pulsed at its characteristic resonant freq without loosing phase so you can have stable freq and its parametrized by the coil inductance that is easy to change

BillB

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #142, on December 19th, 2016, 10:52 AM »Last edited on December 19th, 2016, 05:54 PM
Hello Guys - i built this from the Dave Lawton circuit rebuild from 2006.  I did the scope test this morning.  The unit was running on a 9 volt battery.

Question:  is it possible to wire in a PLL, and Driver circuit to this one, or is it wiser to begin from scratch and build the entire thing integrated?

I added 2 photos i took after i recorded the signal digitally in Pro Tools.  The high resolution reveals details. 

The pulses are self evident, but the gate generates it's own frequency which appears below the line, out of phase or more accurately the  opposite phase to the tone.  I have no specific way of measuring these two frequencies (just learning the scope, eh), but they are variable, of course.  My ear tells me the pulses are around 10kHz and the gate frequency is near 1 kHz. The 2 frequencies do seem to affect each other on the scope somewhat i.e. they appear to go in and out of phase through harmonic coupling as they are adjusted. Easy to record as well with a 100 ohm resistor on the +V line output from the PWM.  I also loaded the circuit slightly with a headphone speaker in parallel.

This leads me to consider making a wav file, loading it in an iPod and driving a VIC with a stereo amplifier, with the track on loop.  Output/voltage modulation via the volume control.

I realize this is somewhat off topic here, but these components i do have available so i think i'm going to pursue that idea for a while.

If these ideas contribute in any small way i'n grateful - i've learned and am learning a great deal here from everyone.

Thanks kindly - Bill

sebosfato

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #143, on December 20th, 2016, 09:24 AM »Last edited on December 20th, 2016, 09:31 AM
Quote from haxar on December 19th, 2016, 12:39 AM
New revised manual adjusting VIC schematic:

http://open-source-energy.org/?msg=41523

N8 would have the other kind.
When you pulse your circuit with a freq that is not locked in phase or meaning not very well tuned it will result in a amplitude modulation because the frequency will be slight different the phases will walk and you get beats effect

To make the pll work you must understand how to get the proper feedback otherwise all you get is a nice pulsing ckt

The pll used correct will tune very easy and almost won't need the scanning ckt for is useful only when it loses the time ..

I preferred to use inductive feedback meaning a coil in parallel with a small turns coil on the core of resonance interest  ...than the signal to be taken from is from the current direction

There's lot about it on my project section in the ionization forum



haxar

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #144, on December 20th, 2016, 09:40 AM »
The feedback coil can oscillate the transformer primary with just a transistor, therefore resonate at a specific frequency.

Matt Watts

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #145, on December 20th, 2016, 11:00 AM »
Quote from sebosfato on December 20th, 2016, 09:24 AM
When you pulse your circuit with a freq that is not locked in phase or meaning not very well tuned it will result in a amplitude modulation because the frequency will be slight different the phases will walk and you get beats effect
Beat frequencies...

That is exactly what I hope to see with my testing.

I suspect the way Stan developed his circuit by using the kickback from the primary as feedback to the PLL while filtering out the main pulse frequency will do exactly as sebosfato is saying.  This concept is nearly identical to what is used in sonar systems.  You ping the transducer then listen to the transducer for the echo.  Once you have the phase alignment correct, the ping and the echo appear to happen at exactly the same time, only the echo is one cycle behind.  This is the perfect application for a PLL.  What you get in effect is the perfect impedance match as John Shive demonstrated in his Similarities of Wave Behavior video.


~Russ

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #146, on December 20th, 2016, 12:49 PM »
hi Bill, I'm sure it is, i also build that circuit, but at this time i think we are just trying to understand this and having the option to do it manually.

as this is kinds off topic after you reply i will move this to a new thread so it can be discussed there and so we dont detract this thread to much,

Thanks Sebosfato,

i agree, seams as Matt, so we should try to see what the PLL will do for us in thus mode. ( primary feed back only)

also dont forget that there is a another coil that also feeds back in to the PLL...  this is the "feed back" coil, so i;m wondering if the combination of the 2 work best. however we got to start it pulsing first. ( thats the main input to the pll this keeps it pulsing)  any way, maybe we should start a new thread for driver circuit Matt. we are doing a nice job cluttering up this thread with other ideas that are not necacry for this thread...


~Russ

sebosfato

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #147, on December 20th, 2016, 02:56 PM »
I was just trying to help some understand how it work

On resonance the current is 90degrees de-phased from voltage this mean that you need to know the direction the current is flowing to be able to pulse with correct time. When you connect a coil to a signal automatically the voltage and current in the coil get also 90degrees if the resistance is low enough and there is enough xl ... the pll needs a 90 degrees signal and that's why i tell you my case of success where I used like 20 t on the resonating core as the feedback coil and in series with that a coil of something around 10mh. The other side of the coils are connected across the antiparallel diodes... well I recommend anyone willing to try the pll tô not waste time and look my schematic because I changed the ckt a little bit to work,!

Sorry to run of topic ....

Lucky and have fun on that!


~Russ

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #148, on December 20th, 2016, 03:24 PM »
Quote from sebosfato on December 20th, 2016, 02:56 PM
I was just trying to help some understand how it work

Sorry to run of topic ....

Lucky and have fun on that!
no worries :)

its " on topic"

i was just saying that we need to dedicate a place for this PLL and driver circuit!  :) ill do that soon :)

~Russ

BillB

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board
« Reply #149, on December 20th, 2016, 10:41 PM »
Quote from ~Russ on December 20th, 2016, 12:49 PM
hi Bill, I'm sure it is, i also build that circuit, but at this time i think we are just trying to understand this and having the option to do it manually.

as this is kinds off topic after you reply i will move this to a new thread so it can be discussed there and so we dont detract this thread to much,
Yes i understand, Russ - thanks!  I have to look more carefully for where these more basic ideas fit in on the forum - and i get busy sometimes for months and have to put this all down etc - you all are way ahead here. I arn learning a lot from you guys and feel compelled to contribute if i can. 

Whatever you all think here - i'm with you :o)