VIC Coil

firepinto

RE: VIC Coil
« Reply #100, on March 29th, 2012, 09:35 PM »Last edited on March 29th, 2012, 09:43 PM by firepinto
Quote from Jeff Nading on March 29th, 2012, 04:31 AM
Quote from firepinto on March 28th, 2012, 10:47 PM
I spent some time working on the Multi-coil spool VIC 3D model today.  I wanted to add holes for the terminals.  I haven't been able to figure out which terminals go to what areas in the bobbins.  From the photos I found more holes that I have no idea what they are for.  Sight holes of some sort?  Any way it looks like the holes are not drilled straight through the wall of the bobbin.  Any one got ideas?

I marked up a drawing pointing out the different types of holes:


Nate
Hi Nate, just a guess, but some of the holes could have been used for mounting the bobbin parts for machining.
Hey Jeff, I bet your right.  I've come to the conclusion that the turret terminal holes are just for mounting purposes.  I believe the small holes were meant for the wire to enter and exit the bobbins.  The wires were simply soldered to the top of the turret post.  That means the pictures of the Multi-coil spool vic are of an uncompleted unit.  Someone on my Thingiverse bobbin page ( http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:13463 )  mentioned that he thought the bobbins were not wound.  I now think that is correct.  It also makes me think more and more that most of the estate was left over parts.  There had to be some coils that were wound and tested.  I mocked up a picture showing how I think the terminals were used:
[attachment=1126]

Nate

~Russ

RE: VIC Coil
« Reply #101, on March 29th, 2012, 11:30 PM »
Quote from firepinto on March 29th, 2012, 09:35 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on March 29th, 2012, 04:31 AM
Quote from firepinto on March 28th, 2012, 10:47 PM
I spent some time working on the Multi-coil spool VIC 3D model today.  I wanted to add holes for the terminals.  I haven't been able to figure out which terminals go to what areas in the bobbins.  From the photos I found more holes that I have no idea what they are for.  Sight holes of some sort?  Any way it looks like the holes are not drilled straight through the wall of the bobbin.  Any one got ideas?

I marked up a drawing pointing out the different types of holes:


Nate
Hi Nate, just a guess, but some of the holes could have been used for mounting the bobbin parts for machining.
Hey Jeff, I bet your right.  I've come to the conclusion that the turret terminal holes are just for mounting purposes.  I believe the small holes were meant for the wire to enter and exit the bobbins.  The wires were simply soldered to the top of the turret post.  That means the pictures of the Multi-coil spool vic are of an uncompleted unit.  Someone on my Thingiverse bobbin page ( http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:13463 )  mentioned that he thought the bobbins were not wound.  I now think that is correct.  It also makes me think more and more that most of the estate was left over parts.  There had to be some coils that were wound and tested.  I mocked up a picture showing how I think the terminals were used:


Nate
talked to don about the wire. he stated there was no wire on any of the bobbins. including the one with the core.  but the SS wire was there at the estate... so it may have been all left over parts... or test parts... ~Russ



firepinto

RE: VIC Coil
« Reply #102, on March 30th, 2012, 12:22 AM »
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 29th, 2012, 11:30 PM
Quote from firepinto on March 29th, 2012, 09:35 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on March 29th, 2012, 04:31 AM
Quote from firepinto on March 28th, 2012, 10:47 PM
I spent some time working on the Multi-coil spool VIC 3D model today.  I wanted to add holes for the terminals.  I haven't been able to figure out which terminals go to what areas in the bobbins.  From the photos I found more holes that I have no idea what they are for.  Sight holes of some sort?  Any way it looks like the holes are not drilled straight through the wall of the bobbin.  Any one got ideas?

I marked up a drawing pointing out the different types of holes:


Nate
Hi Nate, just a guess, but some of the holes could have been used for mounting the bobbin parts for machining.
Hey Jeff, I bet your right.  I've come to the conclusion that the turret terminal holes are just for mounting purposes.  I believe the small holes were meant for the wire to enter and exit the bobbins.  The wires were simply soldered to the top of the turret post.  That means the pictures of the Multi-coil spool vic are of an uncompleted unit.  Someone on my Thingiverse bobbin page ( http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:13463 )  mentioned that he thought the bobbins were not wound.  I now think that is correct.  It also makes me think more and more that most of the estate was left over parts.  There had to be some coils that were wound and tested.  I mocked up a picture showing how I think the terminals were used:


Nate
talked to don about the wire. he stated there was no wire on any of the bobbins. including the one with the core.  but the SS wire was there at the estate... so it may have been all left over parts... or test parts... ~Russ
Thanks Russ and Don,:cool: I'm going to work on getting some of those insulated turret terminals so I can make the mounting holes the right size.  I think the reason he used the PFTE insulated ones, was for heat insulation during soldering.  Really nothing to do with electrical insulation since they are screwed into the bobbin.  There is also enough room to clamp a heat sink on the wire so that the Delrin isn't melted.  Some of the terminals are also missing on those photos.  Shows how important referencing photo evidence with the patents is.  

Nate

TonyWoodside

RE: VIC Coil
« Reply #103, on March 30th, 2012, 07:45 PM »
Russ,
Here are the measurements of the Steel Laminates that I have for the 1:1 Injector VIC Coil.

Jeff Nading

RE: VIC Coil
« Reply #104, on March 30th, 2012, 07:55 PM »
Say Nate, can something else be used instead of insulated turret terminals, like a solderless terminal of some kind, just to clamp the wire for quick removal?

firepinto

RE: VIC Coil
« Reply #105, on March 30th, 2012, 08:25 PM »
Hey Jeff,
There are probably options out there.  I bet you could even just use brass screws with nuts in place of the turrets.

~Russ

RE: VIC Coil
« Reply #106, on March 30th, 2012, 09:50 PM »
Quote from firepinto on March 30th, 2012, 12:22 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 29th, 2012, 11:30 PM
Quote from firepinto on March 29th, 2012, 09:35 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on March 29th, 2012, 04:31 AM
Quote from firepinto on March 28th, 2012, 10:47 PM
I spent some time working on the Multi-coil spool VIC 3D model today.  I wanted to add holes for the terminals.  I haven't been able to figure out which terminals go to what areas in the bobbins.  From the photos I found more holes that I have no idea what they are for.  Sight holes of some sort?  Any way it looks like the holes are not drilled straight through the wall of the bobbin.  Any one got ideas?

I marked up a drawing pointing out the different types of holes:


Nate
Hi Nate, just a guess, but some of the holes could have been used for mounting the bobbin parts for machining.
Hey Jeff, I bet your right.  I've come to the conclusion that the turret terminal holes are just for mounting purposes.  I believe the small holes were meant for the wire to enter and exit the bobbins.  The wires were simply soldered to the top of the turret post.  That means the pictures of the Multi-coil spool vic are of an uncompleted unit.  Someone on my Thingiverse bobbin page ( http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:13463 )  mentioned that he thought the bobbins were not wound.  I now think that is correct.  It also makes me think more and more that most of the estate was left over parts.  There had to be some coils that were wound and tested.  I mocked up a picture showing how I think the terminals were used:


Nate
talked to don about the wire. he stated there was no wire on any of the bobbins. including the one with the core.  but the SS wire was there at the estate... so it may have been all left over parts... or test parts... ~Russ
Thanks Russ and Don,:cool: I'm going to work on getting some of those insulated turret terminals so I can make the mounting holes the right size.  I think the reason he used the PFTE insulated ones, was for heat insulation during soldering.  Really nothing to do with electrical insulation since they are screwed into the bobbin.  There is also enough room to clamp a heat sink on the wire so that the Delrin isn't melted.  Some of the terminals are also missing on those photos.  Shows how important referencing photo evidence with the patents is.  

Nate
sweet! let me know where we can get some also!!!
Quote
Russ,
Here are the measurements of the Steel Laminates that I have for the 1:1 Injector VIC Coil.
fantastic! thanks tony!
RE: VIC Coil
« Reply #107, on April 12th, 2012, 02:36 AM »Last edited on April 13th, 2012, 02:55 AM by ~Russ/Rwg42985
i have been doing some work on this and here is what i have come up with... please give your thoughts.
Quote
Resonant
Charging Chokes (614/615) 430F/FR 36 A WG (.006) stainless steel (s/s) wire
RE: VIC Matrix Circuit Memo WFC 426
Stanley A. Meyer 7-5
equals 60 micro ohms per centimeter;
just found this doc and it had the 60 micro ohms per centimeter stated in the datasheet. that is cool!

http://www.hmwire.com/New%20PDFs/Stainless_Steel_430_Alloy.pdf
[attachment=1185]

it also has a magnetic permeability of 800... that's interesting...

now from the ss 430 wire i have from the estate, (thanks don!!!!)...
so in the patents... for the inductors...
Quote
(typically .004 Ga. or
smaller)
and
Quote
36 A WG (.006)
it looks like .003" bare and .004 with coating... give or take .0005 as it is between... that's about 38awg bare... (copper chart.)  my calipers are cheep but accurate.  i would say this wire may have triple build but my calipers may just not be that accurate. as Stan stated it was double build... i also can not solder the ss wire... but it may need more heat...???

also, i measure 16.4 ohms per foot. on the ss wire. so thats 707.31 foot per choke coil... to get 11.6k wow! its small wire but man!

now as far as primary and secondary... there are some problems with picking the correct wire...

here are some quotes for the primary... :
Quote
typically .030 Ga.
that is between 20 - 21 awg bare and matches 21 awg heavy build.
Quote
22 A WG (.028) copper wire equals 5.1933 ohms per pound weight
that is .028 matches 21 awg bare and really close to 22awg heavy build. and for weight/ohms it matches best with 21 awg...

also a quote from the diagram 6-1 " Dual Primary coil 30 GA. magnet wire bidirectional wrapped" ...  this is the only place i have found that primary has 2 coils... as tony stated its for the feed back... so the feed back is also 30GA. ??? seems odd. i think it may just be 2 primary's and they need to be connected some how... "bidirectional wrapped" that's opposite direction?


on now for the secondary:
Quote
35 A WG (.007) copper wire equals 13K ohms
per pound weight
35 AWG is .0055 bare and .067 for heavy build... but matches best to 38AWG for LB/Ohms...

and
Quote
typically .002 Ga. magnet wire
thats between awg 43 and 44 bare and between 46 and 47 for heavy build... hahaha now im confused...


i need help picking wire... and also the coating... what build of coating  uses
Quote
solderable Nysol (Polyurethane Nylon Jacket) insulation enamel coating as a electrical
shield-material ... all dielectric coatings having an effective 3KV per mil dielectric value and formulated
specifically to endure automotive temperature range from _ 40 0 to 1550 C.
i find this to be the material.. but can not find the
Quote
effective 3KV per mil dielectric value
can some one find what build will be this dielectric strength???

here is the material

http://www.hmwire.com/polyurethanenylon180.html
Quote
Automotive coils, Specialty power transformers
and lastly my modifications to the bobbins... :

the cores don sent me did not fit. so i decided to mill the edges so it fit. will not heart anything... fits well.

and for the inner square part i took a 3/4" steal bar stock. milled the end till it was razor sharp and just pushed it in to the bobbin... was surprised it cut like butter... and clean edges... that's really lucky for the UHMW and bobbin thickness i have... lol nice fit now!!! off to getting wire sizes and warping the ss wire...

the top is just setting on there and yes the cores will need to be installed correctly...
[attachment=1177]

the inside
 [attachment=1178]
[attachment=1179]
[attachment=1180]
[attachment=1181]

the outside
[attachment=1182]
[attachment=1183]


nice fit:
[attachment=1178]
[attachment=1186]
[attachment=1184]

thank to all for everything and the help and feedback and thank god for the willingness to press on and keep my head on straight! :) (so far)

God bless and blessings to all!

~Russ

Video on the Vic bobbin and core

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzaibn90Dls

Jeff Nading

RE: VIC Coil
« Reply #108, on April 12th, 2012, 07:11 AM »Last edited on April 12th, 2012, 08:29 AM by Jeff Nading
Winding wire on the vic bobbin using a lathe and a stepper motor setup, video and schematic here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt8iByk0kNY&context=C4613f41ADvjVQa1PpcFMMeViXaIlnTqq_pl1qxANre_oRpydUD_E=


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlVkz9vNAEo&context=C472a017ADvjVQa1PpcFMMeViXaIlnTvvrl5dpt86IBv9jA5nx-GQ=

http://www.backyardworkshop.com/blog-posts/most-recent/97-homemade-power-drive.html

My real choice would be to use an Arduino board, because the software has already been written and free for download, here
http://www.arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/Stepper

I think this would be easy to build, I would clamp mount micro switches to the bed [ to replace the toggle switch], on each side of the feed to use as forward and reversing switches, this would forward and reverse the feed automatically. Mounting the bobbin on a rod, clamping the bobbin so it will not turn on the rod, then mount the rod in the three jaw chuck , aligning the feed with it, then controlling the speed of the 3 jaw chuck and the feed should work for winding the bobbin. Well just an idea.:D:P

~Russ

RE: VIC Coil
« Reply #109, on April 14th, 2012, 03:16 AM »Last edited on April 14th, 2012, 03:20 AM by ~Russ/Rwg42985
either i'm asking way to Manny questions or everyone else is way behind me lol...

eather way... i still dont know what wire to use... guess ill just get some..

now as far as the SS wire... i got it done...

a lot of calculating but i got it.

used my winder/counter to calculate length vs resistance and came up dead on... 1722 count on my conter and 123 for each cavity on my counter... came out dead on for turns on each cavity... crazy.

i could have made it 11.6k but instead i went just over in case i needed to change something  im at 11.8k thats only about 12 foot to much. but i did see where Stan mention that 11.6k and above is enough to...

i can can always take off some..

i also put the core on with the center bobbin only to do measurements. (took me 20 min to install the core... faster than i thought it would take... ) a full set of measurements in series and parallel but only posting the same settings i used for the other vic's... but full data is in the excel.

Code: [Select]
wire size ss 430 resistive wire
wire resantce  (fluke) 11.8k
Count on my counter… 1722
count on each cavity on my counter 123
wire resantce on iron lam(100hz) 12.070k @ .1373
wire resantce on iron  lam(120hz) 12.173k @ .1642
wire resantce on iron  lam (1khz) 32.5k @ 1.2797
wire resantce on iron  lam(10khz) 367.5 k @ 2.1852
inductance on iron lam (100hz) 2.65635h @ .1405
inductance on iron lam (120hz) 2.6458h @ .1682
inductance on iron lam (1khz) 2.5811h @ 1.3025
inductance on iron lam (10khz) 2.24h @ 2.1381
capacitance iron lam (100hz) 17.8nf @ 7.432
capacitance iron  lam(120hz) 17.62nf @ 6.1975
capacitance iron  lam(1khz) 6.253nf @ .7862
capacitance iron lam (10khz) 94.71pf @ .4613

wire resantce on air core (100hz) 11.8k @ 0.105
wire resantce on air core (120hz) 11.798k @ .0125
wire resantce on air core (1khz) 11.377k @ .0957
wire resantce on air core (10khz) 8.314k @ .3726
inductance on air core (100hz) 197.1mh @ .0105
inductance on air core(120hz) 195.4 mh @ .0125
inductance on air core (1khz) 171.8mh @ .0958
inductance on air core (10khz) 43.26mh @ .3724
capacitance on air core(100hz) 1415pf @ 94.9
capacitance on air core(120hz) 1402pf @ 80.166
capacitance on air core (1khz) 13345.7pf @ 10.450
capacitance on air core(10khz) 712.9pf @ 2.6857

[attachment=1205]
[attachment=1206]
[attachment=1207]
[attachment=1209]

and here are all the measurements.
http://open-source-energy.org/rwg42985/russ/VIC_Readings%20RWG%20Forms%204-14-12.xls

one prob is that i hardly have any room for the primary. but if you look at a fly back there like .5ohm primary... so this my be correct... if not ill need to make a new bobbin and make the slots bigger... or i was thinking that i could just wrap the full bobbing with wire till it was full. lol but i think that will not work correctly... just a thought.

keep up all the good work everyone! ~Russ

Webmug

RE: VIC Coil
« Reply #110, on April 14th, 2012, 08:30 AM »
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 14th, 2012, 03:16 AM
either i'm asking way to Manny questions or everyone else is way behind me lol...

eather way... i still dont know what wire to use... guess ill just get some..

now as far as the SS wire... i got it done...

a lot of calculating but i got it.

used my winder/counter to calculate length vs resistance and came up dead on... 1722 count on my conter and 123 for each cavity on my counter... came out dead on for turns on each cavity... crazy.

i could have made it 11.6k but instead i went just over in case i needed to change something  im at 11.8k thats only about 12 foot to much. but i did see where Stan mention that 11.6k and above is enough to...

i can can always take off some..

i also put the core on with the center bobbin only to do measurements. (took me 20 min to install the core... faster than i thought it would take... ) a full set of measurements in series and parallel but only posting the same settings i used for the other vic's... but full data is in the excel.

Code: [Select]
wire size ss 430 resistive wire
wire resantce  (fluke) 11.8k
Count on my counter… 1722
count on each cavity on my counter 123
wire resantce on iron lam(100hz) 12.070k @ .1373
wire resantce on iron  lam(120hz) 12.173k @ .1642
wire resantce on iron  lam (1khz) 32.5k @ 1.2797
wire resantce on iron  lam(10khz) 367.5 k @ 2.1852
inductance on iron lam (100hz) 2.65635h @ .1405
inductance on iron lam (120hz) 2.6458h @ .1682
inductance on iron lam (1khz) 2.5811h @ 1.3025
inductance on iron lam (10khz) 2.24h @ 2.1381
capacitance iron lam (100hz) 17.8nf @ 7.432
capacitance iron  lam(120hz) 17.62nf @ 6.1975
capacitance iron  lam(1khz) 6.253nf @ .7862
capacitance iron lam (10khz) 94.71pf @ .4613

wire resantce on air core (100hz) 11.8k @ 0.105
wire resantce on air core (120hz) 11.798k @ .0125
wire resantce on air core (1khz) 11.377k @ .0957
wire resantce on air core (10khz) 8.314k @ .3726
inductance on air core (100hz) 197.1mh @ .0105
inductance on air core(120hz) 195.4 mh @ .0125
inductance on air core (1khz) 171.8mh @ .0958
inductance on air core (10khz) 43.26mh @ .3724
capacitance on air core(100hz) 1415pf @ 94.9
capacitance on air core(120hz) 1402pf @ 80.166
capacitance on air core (1khz) 13345.7pf @ 10.450
capacitance on air core(10khz) 712.9pf @ 2.6857






and here are all the measurements.
http://open-source-energy.org/rwg42985/russ/VIC_Readings%20RWG%20Forms%204-14-12.xls

one prob is that i hardly have any room for the primary. but if you look at a fly back there like .5ohm primary... so this my be correct... if not ill need to make a new bobbin and make the slots bigger... or i was thinking that i could just wrap the full bobbing with wire till it was full. lol but i think that will not work correctly... just a thought.

keep up all the good work everyone! ~Russ
Hey Russ,

Impressive injector bobbin!
I read the xls file and wondering what you measured.
What you said series/parallel setting on the meter.

I see only one choke series and parallel measurement?
CHOKE 1 and CHOKE 2 are BIFILAR wound, right. Meaning two wires at the same time in cavities? Or are the values the same CHOKE1 = CHOKE2?

Also notice BI-directional DUAL primary coil (two primaries?) and secondary UNIFILAR wound.

430F or 430FR
Chokes (0.004 Ga. or smaller)

Normal magnet wire
Primary wire (0.030 Ga. film coated magnet wire)
Secondary wire (0.002 Ga. magnet wire)

Am getting confused with converting Ga. to AWG, SWG and steel wire gauge.
http://www.resistancewire.com/mainpage.php?page=gaugechart

Question: btw. how do you tune in without pickup coil? :)

Br,
Webmug

Jeff Nading

RE: VIC Coil
« Reply #111, on April 14th, 2012, 09:49 AM »
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 14th, 2012, 03:16 AM
either i'm asking way to Manny questions or everyone else is way behind me lol...

eather way... i still dont know what wire to use... guess ill just get some..

now as far as the SS wire... i got it done...

a lot of calculating but i got it.

used my winder/counter to calculate length vs resistance and came up dead on... 1722 count on my conter and 123 for each cavity on my counter... came out dead on for turns on each cavity... crazy.

i could have made it 11.6k but instead i went just over in case i needed to change something  im at 11.8k thats only about 12 foot to much. but i did see where Stan mention that 11.6k and above is enough to...

i can can always take off some..

i also put the core on with the center bobbin only to do measurements. (took me 20 min to install the core... faster than i thought it would take... ) a full set of measurements in series and parallel but only posting the same settings i used for the other vic's... but full data is in the excel.

Code: [Select]
wire size ss 430 resistive wire
wire resantce  (fluke) 11.8k
Count on my counter… 1722
count on each cavity on my counter 123
wire resantce on iron lam(100hz) 12.070k @ .1373
wire resantce on iron  lam(120hz) 12.173k @ .1642
wire resantce on iron  lam (1khz) 32.5k @ 1.2797
wire resantce on iron  lam(10khz) 367.5 k @ 2.1852
inductance on iron lam (100hz) 2.65635h @ .1405
inductance on iron lam (120hz) 2.6458h @ .1682
inductance on iron lam (1khz) 2.5811h @ 1.3025
inductance on iron lam (10khz) 2.24h @ 2.1381
capacitance iron lam (100hz) 17.8nf @ 7.432
capacitance iron  lam(120hz) 17.62nf @ 6.1975
capacitance iron  lam(1khz) 6.253nf @ .7862
capacitance iron lam (10khz) 94.71pf @ .4613

wire resantce on air core (100hz) 11.8k @ 0.105
wire resantce on air core (120hz) 11.798k @ .0125
wire resantce on air core (1khz) 11.377k @ .0957
wire resantce on air core (10khz) 8.314k @ .3726
inductance on air core (100hz) 197.1mh @ .0105
inductance on air core(120hz) 195.4 mh @ .0125
inductance on air core (1khz) 171.8mh @ .0958
inductance on air core (10khz) 43.26mh @ .3724
capacitance on air core(100hz) 1415pf @ 94.9
capacitance on air core(120hz) 1402pf @ 80.166
capacitance on air core (1khz) 13345.7pf @ 10.450
capacitance on air core(10khz) 712.9pf @ 2.6857






and here are all the measurements.
http://open-source-energy.org/rwg42985/russ/VIC_Readings%20RWG%20Forms%204-14-12.xls

one prob is that i hardly have any room for the primary. but if you look at a fly back there like .5ohm primary... so this my be correct... if not ill need to make a new bobbin and make the slots bigger... or i was thinking that i could just wrap the full bobbing with wire till it was full. lol but i think that will not work correctly... just a thought.

keep up all the good work everyone! ~Russ
Very professional looking Russ.:D

~Russ

RE: VIC Coil
« Reply #112, on April 14th, 2012, 10:22 AM »
Quote
I read the xls file and wondering what you measured.
What you said series/parallel setting on the meter.
as we discussed before. there is a setting to measure parallel series... i don't really understand it but it think it has to do with the range of the thing being measured...
Quote
I see only one choke series and parallel measurement?
CHOKE 1 and CHOKE 2 are BIFILAR wound, right. Meaning two wires at the same time in cavities? Or are the values the same CHOKE1 = CHOKE2?
yes. there the same so im not going to measure both... takes about 30-45 min do do all the measurements and log it...
Quote
Also notice BI-directional DUAL primary coil (two primaries?) and secondary UNIFILAR wound.
well. this is up for discussion... i dont think that there is a feed back. but that quote is mentioned in the drawing only... know where else that i have found.

i think that once we tune the system... thats it... it dose not vary like a water bath will... so no auto tune necessary.
Quote
Am getting confused with converting Ga. to AWG, SWG and steel wire gauge.
lol yes. you did see my long post on all the sizes and information yes?

here:

http://www.open-source-energy.org/?tid=119&pid=4233#pid4233

already been through that! lol
Quote
Question: btw. how do you tune in without pickup coil? :)
calculate and test and check... o scope

I really don't think we need a self tune... water vapor. the same all the time...

tune and go...

one more question. Should we put this in an oil bath??? if we get 20,000 volts to 90,000 volts. these connectors are so close... oil bath is the only way.

otherwise we would have a nice arc show. :)

???

~Russ
RE: VIC Coil
« Reply #113, on April 14th, 2012, 10:24 AM »
Quote
Very professional looking Russ.:D
lol, thanks uncle Jeff! :)

~Russ




Webmug

RE: VIC Coil
« Reply #114, on April 14th, 2012, 10:53 AM »
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 14th, 2012, 10:22 AM
I really don't think we need a self tune... water vapor. the same all the time...

tune and go...

one more question. Should we put this in an oil bath??? if we get 20,000 volts to 90,000 volts. these connectors are so close... oil bath is the only way.

otherwise we would have a nice arc show. :)

???

~Russ
I think you are right, about the tuning part. What I find interesting about the SS wire is that a DIODE is not needed anymore as we use it in the other VIC.

Also the UNIPOLAR DOUBLE pulse comes from the SS chokes due the magnetic choking. A diode is needed if we use normal resistive wire (not magnetic) to get UNIPOLAR DOUBLE pulse. Also the injector chokes have the same length of wire, not the other VIC, why? I think it's the DIODE and the placing of the choke on the core that changed the output at the choke NEG not opposite equal voltages as choke POS. Inject VIC has the advantage it's BIFILAR on the same core position.:D

The input voltage amplitude is also adjusted for the injector coils to control the output voltage. (xx kV to ....)

As the part oil bath, why use this  there is no current flowing at the chokes output. Or am I mistaken? Not seen oil in the photos from Dynodon.

Br,
Webmug

phil

RE: VIC Coil
« Reply #115, on April 14th, 2012, 12:51 PM »
Heres a little diagram i picked up on my travels, all these coil winding configurations are supposed to give magnetic cancelling and scalar output. one of them includes bifilar cross wrapped.

[attachment=1211]

~Russ

RE: VIC Coil
« Reply #116, on April 14th, 2012, 01:59 PM »
Quote
What I find interesting about the SS wire is that a DIODE is not needed anymore as we use it in the other VIC.

Also the UNIPOLAR DOUBLE pulse comes from the SS chokes due the magnetic choking. A diode is needed if we use normal resistive wire (not magnetic) to get UNIPOLAR DOUBLE pulse. Also the injector chokes have the same length of wire, not the other VIC, why? I think it's the DIODE and the placing of the choke on the core that changed the output at the choke NEG not opposite equal voltages as choke POS. Inject VIC has the advantage it's BIFILAR on the same core position.:D
i also believe the same... its one interesting design... and the interesting thing is it makes perfect sense.  i still to this day have know reason why this type of system will not work the way stan built it... :) i believe :)  its all there... :)
Quote
As the part oil bath, why use this  there is no current flowing at the chokes output. Or am I mistaken? Not seen oil in the photos from Dynodon.
well... i don't know but if you look at how stan incased the VIC... it was in a solid aluminum block case...

1. it was to shield the emf coming from the coil.
2 it was so it could be filled with oil. like most high voltage coils.  

i don't know just thinking out loud as i find it hard to believe that even if there is 0 amp flow that you will still have some leakage... high voltage is high voltage and it wants to go some where! lol

the studs are so close to each other and also to the core... just seems that it may arc.

and last the primary is thick wire and low ohms ... this will make for it wanting to heat up... ??? so oil will cool it...???

thanks guys!!! ~Russ
RE: VIC Coil
« Reply #117, on April 14th, 2012, 01:59 PM »
Quote from phil on April 14th, 2012, 12:51 PM
Heres a little diagram i picked up on my travels, all these coil winding configurations are supposed to give magnetic cancelling and scalar output. one of them includes bifilar cross wrapped.
thanks phill!!! ~Russ

firepinto

RE: VIC Coil
« Reply #118, on April 14th, 2012, 02:25 PM »
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 14th, 2012, 01:59 PM
i also believe the same... its one interesting design... and the interesting thing is it makes perfect sense.  i still to this day have know reason why this type of system will not work the way stan built it... :) i believe :)  its all there... :)
Quote
As the part oil bath, why use this  there is no current flowing at the chokes output. Or am I mistaken? Not seen oil in the photos from Dynodon.
well... i don't know but if you look at how stan incased the VIC... it was in a solid aluminum block case...

1. it was to shield the emf coming from the coil.
2 it was so it could be filled with oil. like most high voltage coils.  

i don't know just thinking out loud as i find it hard to believe that even if there is 0 amp flow that you will still have some leakage... high voltage is high voltage and it wants to go some where! lol

the studs are so close to each other and also to the core... just seems that it may arc.

and last the primary is thick wire and low ohms ... this will make for it wanting to heat up... ??? so oil will cool it...???

thanks guys!!! ~Russ
I think an oil bath is a good idea.  The way the aluminum case is designed, it could be adapted very easily to be liquid tight.  The bottom wire hole is round, and could be sealed.  There seems to be mounting holes for a bottom D shell socket 'inside' of the case.  While the top D shell socket is mounted on the outside of the case, being above oil level.  There is plenty of room to install a rubber gasket on between the cover and the case.  

Jeff, what kind of 3D files does your CNC mill use? :idea:

Nate

Jeff Nading

RE: VIC Coil
« Reply #119, on April 14th, 2012, 03:05 PM »
Quote from firepinto on April 14th, 2012, 02:25 PM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 14th, 2012, 01:59 PM
i also believe the same... its one interesting design... and the interesting thing is it makes perfect sense.  i still to this day have know reason why this type of system will not work the way stan built it... :) i believe :)  its all there... :)
Quote
As the part oil bath, why use this  there is no current flowing at the chokes output. Or am I mistaken? Not seen oil in the photos from Dynodon.
well... i don't know but if you look at how stan incased the VIC... it was in a solid aluminum block case...

1. it was to shield the emf coming from the coil.
2 it was so it could be filled with oil. like most high voltage coils.  

i don't know just thinking out loud as i find it hard to believe that even if there is 0 amp flow that you will still have some leakage... high voltage is high voltage and it wants to go some where! lol

the studs are so close to each other and also to the core... just seems that it may arc.

and last the primary is thick wire and low ohms ... this will make for it wanting to heat up... ??? so oil will cool it...???

thanks guys!!! ~Russ
I think an oil bath is a good idea.  The way the aluminum case is designed, it could be adapted very easily to be liquid tight.  The bottom wire hole is round, and could be sealed.  There seems to be mounting holes for a bottom D shell socket 'inside' of the case.  While the top D shell socket is mounted on the outside of the case, being above oil level.  There is plenty of room to install a rubber gasket on between the cover and the case.  

Jeff, what kind of 3D files does your CNC mill use? :idea:

Nate
Actually it's not CNC but I could mill something just the same, just if you could give me dimensions and I'll see what I can do, should not be a problem.
RE: VIC Coil
« Reply #120, on April 14th, 2012, 03:07 PM »
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 14th, 2012, 03:05 PM
Quote from firepinto on April 14th, 2012, 02:25 PM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 14th, 2012, 01:59 PM
i also believe the same... its one interesting design... and the interesting thing is it makes perfect sense.  i still to this day have know reason why this type of system will not work the way stan built it... :) i believe :)  its all there... :)
Quote
As the part oil bath, why use this  there is no current flowing at the chokes output. Or am I mistaken? Not seen oil in the photos from Dynodon.
well... i don't know but if you look at how stan incased the VIC... it was in a solid aluminum block case...

1. it was to shield the emf coming from the coil.
2 it was so it could be filled with oil. like most high voltage coils.  

i don't know just thinking out loud as i find it hard to believe that even if there is 0 amp flow that you will still have some leakage... high voltage is high voltage and it wants to go some where! lol

the studs are so close to each other and also to the core... just seems that it may arc.

and last the primary is thick wire and low ohms ... this will make for it wanting to heat up... ??? so oil will cool it...???

thanks guys!!! ~Russ
I think an oil bath is a good idea.  The way the aluminum case is designed, it could be adapted very easily to be liquid tight.  The bottom wire hole is round, and could be sealed.  There seems to be mounting holes for a bottom D shell socket 'inside' of the case.  While the top D shell socket is mounted on the outside of the case, being above oil level.  There is plenty of room to install a rubber gasket on between the cover and the case.  

Jeff, what kind of 3D files does your CNC mill use? :idea:

Nate
Actually it's not CNC but I could mill something just the same, just if you could give me dimensions and I'll see what I can do, should not be a problem.
Also i was thinking about the oil bath, they put oil in a regular ignition coil, so I think it would be a good idea.

~Russ

RE: VIC Coil
« Reply #122, on April 14th, 2012, 03:53 PM »
question...

im wondering the wire size... so, if the choke inductors are 38awg as i mesured it to be right about there... then would i want a different size on the secondary???

should i not just get 38awg???

that way both are the same size???

would there be an advantage on having the inductors smaller or bigger wire?

thoughts?

~Russ

ps found this and it seems to be what im looking for...

http://www.electromechanicsonline.com/product.asp?pid=714

firepinto

RE: VIC Coil
« Reply #123, on April 14th, 2012, 04:24 PM »Last edited on April 14th, 2012, 04:32 PM by firepinto
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 14th, 2012, 03:05 PM
Quote from firepinto on April 14th, 2012, 02:25 PM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 14th, 2012, 01:59 PM
i also believe the same... its one interesting design... and the interesting thing is it makes perfect sense.  i still to this day have know reason why this type of system will not work the way stan built it... :) i believe :)  its all there... :)
Quote
As the part oil bath, why use this  there is no current flowing at the chokes output. Or am I mistaken? Not seen oil in the photos from Dynodon.
well... i don't know but if you look at how stan incased the VIC... it was in a solid aluminum block case...

1. it was to shield the emf coming from the coil.
2 it was so it could be filled with oil. like most high voltage coils.  

i don't know just thinking out loud as i find it hard to believe that even if there is 0 amp flow that you will still have some leakage... high voltage is high voltage and it wants to go some where! lol

the studs are so close to each other and also to the core... just seems that it may arc.

and last the primary is thick wire and low ohms ... this will make for it wanting to heat up... ??? so oil will cool it...???

thanks guys!!! ~Russ
I think an oil bath is a good idea.  The way the aluminum case is designed, it could be adapted very easily to be liquid tight.  The bottom wire hole is round, and could be sealed.  There seems to be mounting holes for a bottom D shell socket 'inside' of the case.  While the top D shell socket is mounted on the outside of the case, being above oil level.  There is plenty of room to install a rubber gasket on between the cover and the case.  

Jeff, what kind of 3D files does your CNC mill use? :idea:

Nate
Actually it's not CNC but I could mill something just the same, just if you could give me dimensions and I'll see what I can do, should not be a problem.
Oh ok, I must of been thinking of your plasma.   I was just thinking out loud.  lol  I don't need one made, but I figured if I get bored in a hotel someday I might draw up the box in 3D.:)

Nate

Jeff Nading

RE: VIC Coil
« Reply #124, on April 14th, 2012, 06:32 PM »
Quote from firepinto on April 14th, 2012, 04:24 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 14th, 2012, 03:05 PM
Quote from firepinto on April 14th, 2012, 02:25 PM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 14th, 2012, 01:59 PM
i also believe the same... its one interesting design... and the interesting thing is it makes perfect sense.  i still to this day have know reason why this type of system will not work the way stan built it... :) i believe :)  its all there... :)
Quote
As the part oil bath, why use this  there is no current flowing at the chokes output. Or am I mistaken? Not seen oil in the photos from Dynodon.
well... i don't know but if you look at how stan incased the VIC... it was in a solid aluminum block case...

1. it was to shield the emf coming from the coil.
2 it was so it could be filled with oil. like most high voltage coils.  

i don't know just thinking out loud as i find it hard to believe that even if there is 0 amp flow that you will still have some leakage... high voltage is high voltage and it wants to go some where! lol

the studs are so close to each other and also to the core... just seems that it may arc.

and last the primary is thick wire and low ohms ... this will make for it wanting to heat up... ??? so oil will cool it...???

thanks guys!!! ~Russ
I think an oil bath is a good idea.  The way the aluminum case is designed, it could be adapted very easily to be liquid tight.  The bottom wire hole is round, and could be sealed.  There seems to be mounting holes for a bottom D shell socket 'inside' of the case.  While the top D shell socket is mounted on the outside of the case, being above oil level.  There is plenty of room to install a rubber gasket on between the cover and the case.  

Jeff, what kind of 3D files does your CNC mill use? :idea:

Nate
Actually it's not CNC but I could mill something just the same, just if you could give me dimensions and I'll see what I can do, should not be a problem.
Oh ok, I must of been thinking of your plasma.   I was just thinking out loud.  lol  I don't need one made, but I figured if I get bored in a hotel someday I might draw up the box in 3D.:)

Nate
Yes do it Nate, I'll see if I can print one in wax then cast it in aluminum, but see if you  can make it hollow with some support in it, Jeff.