Quote from Axil on October 15th, 2012, 12:42 PM

One interesting observation that has come out of Russ’s experimentation is that a large high energy electron charge persists for a long time after an initiating high powered instantaneous spark discharge occurs.

This could be the energy of the backEMF/backcurrent back whatever.

Quote from Axil on October 15th, 2012, 12:42 PM

Russ has seen ionization last for a long time.

Maybe because it has no way to leave the chamber as it did in the beginning of test when the relay gap on the input/return line was much smaller.

Quote from Axil on October 15th, 2012, 12:42 PM

The signs that this large high energy charge accumulation is occurring is threefold as follows:

First, the green afterglow of a very low level of air contamination persists for a number of frames as seen in Russ’s camera. This green oxygen based aurora discharge is caused by ionization of very low pressure air that Russ’s vacuum pump cannot completely remove.

Why do think of oxygen? NO2 is 73% O2 is 27% in air and air residue. Plus the green color also corresponts with NO2

Experiment:  
After russ vacuums, he could needle in air until the pressure is outside again and then calculate how much percentage air is sucked out by -30 psi. That way he knows how big the pollution is, percentage wise.

Quote from Axil on October 15th, 2012, 12:42 PM

Second, there exists a strong feedback current that is produced after the piston jumps. This current flows back through Russ’s spark electrodes and can jump an air gap to blow out his high current diodes.

He has increased the airgap and isn't notifying the current in his electric circuit..he is also not providing an alternate path for it or measuring it.. yet.

Quote from Axil on October 15th, 2012, 12:42 PM

Third, Russ says that he is able to fire a spark twice in a row due to the residual ionization that remains in the cylinder, but he cannot fire the spark continually since the ionization in the spark gap fades with time.

Which is very awkworth.. one would say..next pop next backcurrent...but no..not a second green glow..has the direction of the current maybe something to do with that?

Quote from Axil on October 15th, 2012, 12:42 PM

Russ said, “I just like how it lasts for a while.. That's the interesting part. The reason I say that is If the gasses stay ionized for a period of time. This means in an Engine application the high voltage may be able to keep it going and I won't need a strong discharge to "kick start it"
 The reason I say this is I hit the button twice and it had a nice discharge with less cap discharge power...”

So we should measure that and see if that second pop on the ionized remains has a different efficiency.. and theorize if one should leave the effect of the backcurrent in or capture the backcurrent and redirect it in after the gas is stable again..

Quote from Axil on October 15th, 2012, 12:42 PM

Because of the Pauli Exclusion Principle as well as the Heisenberg uncertainty principle , the individual electrons in the oscillating cloud will become degenerate (high energy) becoming more and more energetic as the cloud grows bigger. This will tend to keep the electrons from getting back together with their associated ions because of a quantum orbital energy mismatch. This keeps the cloud ionized indefinitely until the stranded electron charge cloud can find a path to ground as a high energy feedback current.

Getting this charge cloud out of the cylinder is important in setting up the next spark discharge cycle by getting the gas back to a neutral charge state.

So trying to get the popper into a second spark engine is not the way to go?
 

Quote

This green oxygen based aurora discharge is caused by ionization of very low pressure air that Russ’s vacuum pump cannot completely remove.

If it's true, Russ shouldn't see a green plasma, shooting just in vacuum without helium?
Spectral lines of helium are red, yellow,blue,violet and some times green to.
Mixing that we see yellow, when fully ionized. Colours could change, when energy levels of electrons are changing. Presure can make difference to (and we think presure is rising?). And glass has his own colour to, usualy green.

Is device jumping, when fired with glass instaled? With piston it was clearly. With glass, from pictures, looks like just cables are moving.

Quote from RSM on October 17th, 2012, 05:57 AM

Quote

This green oxygen based aurora discharge is caused by ionization of very low pressure air that Russ’s vacuum pump cannot completely remove.

If it's true, Russ shouldn't see a green plasma, shooting just in vacuum without helium?
Spectral lines of helium are red, yellow,blue,violet and some times green to.
Mixing that we see yellow, when fully ionized. Colours could change, when energy levels of electrons are changing. Presure can make difference to (and we think presure is rising?). And glass has his own colour to, usualy green.

Is device jumping, when fired with glass instaled? With piston it was clearly. With glass, from pictures, looks like just cables are moving.

I think the piston movement is why the devise jumps. Don't think there is much movement with the absence of the piston, using the glass.

Russ,
A bit of food for the gray cells:
http://lenr.scienceontheweb.net/
Chan

hi guys. I know i don't make matter easier a lot of the time, because I think I am experiencing data entry overload. the blending of information is all jumbled up.
I love these experiments with free energy. every time i see Russ or someone perform an experiment another   idea pops into my head. i can only jot it down for a time. I am learning more each day, but there is a time when a overload causes brain freeze, and the inflow of information is disrupted. This is by virtue and we need to take care to meditate daily on our moral objectives in life. All the people here share, and get along so well. I very happy to be here. :idea:

if any one would like a copy of Maxwell original work ill post it for download.

between pages 54 and 58 he covered discharges in his own words.
 The reason positive ions flow in, is because of the difference in potential.
the medium or a conductor will always  search for equilibrium.
with the plasma-tron devise in action i had thought wow Maxwell did describe this feature. and if there was a 5 times greater out put. I surmise there must be a difference in potential across b that is 5 times higher. Maxwell tells us that a thin stratum of air is important.

I cant go on, but the information we have at our finger tips is moving very quickly to new inventions. the work Russ does here is by virtue worthy of success however great the odds.:heart:

Quote from Axil on October 16th, 2012, 12:30 AM

As the positive ions hit the grounded walls of the cylinder, they will be gradually neutralized by the free electrons in the metal.

By using glass, Russ may be retaining positive charge longer than if the cylinder walls were metal.

I may be experiencing some of these same effects with my modified B&S engine.  My setup follows more closely to the JR arrangement (cylinder coils, RF, and automotive ignition coils) rather than the BR arrangement (sometimes cylinder coils, sometimes not, no RF, rather large capacitive discharge).  I get flashes in the chamber (as viewed through the small glass port) but no kick.  

With the automotive ignition coils (using 3), I am applying, comparatively, much less power to initiate a reaction, but I am wondering if insulating the interior walls of the chambers (both Russ's lower steel housing and cylinder/piston, when attached - and my piston, head, and cylinder extension) would help things along: a longer retention for Russ, and an actual pop initiation for me.  Obviously, as the piston moves, in either setup, the bare cylinder wall will be exposed, and a collapse will begin.   But perhaps, the initiation can begin with less input power.

I am thinking of using the red insulating varnish in a spray can, or a clear polyester powder coat for the insulating material.  I seem to recall JR mentioning using a hard anodize for the interior of the cylinder wall - a good insulator with good wear resistance.

Could this be what we are missing??

Do the popper kits call for steel head/piston?  Aluminum?  Plastic?

You popper kit guys (Chuck & Russ) throw us a bone here.....

kcd

Quote from k c dias on October 18th, 2012, 08:57 AM

I may be experiencing some of these same effects with my modified B&S engine.  My setup follows more closely to the JR arrangement (cylinder coils, RF, and automotive ignition coils) rather than the BR arrangement (sometimes cylinder coils, sometimes not, no RF, rather large capacitive discharge).  I get flashes in the chamber (as viewed through the small glass port) but no kick.  


kcd

Why not use the kick, get some capacitors into it like Russ did?

I've not seen that many of Russ' videos some of them are quite long with not much happening, but I have to say I am impressed by the popper, and the intelligent contributions on this topic.

I can't wait to see how the popper performs with maybe a little more Hydrogen pressure and I am eagerly awaiting current / work measurements because I really think this has potential I will be replicating this if It looks anything like over unity without using a blend of noble gasses.

Quote from whitenight639 on October 18th, 2012, 02:37 PM

I've not seen that many of Russ' videos some of them are quite long with not much happening, but I have to say I am impressed by the popper, and the intelligent contributions on this topic.

I can't wait to see how the popper performs with maybe a little more Hydrogen pressure and I am eagerly awaiting current / work measurements because I really think this has potential I will be replicating this if It looks anything like over unity without using a blend of noble gasses.

If you want to do a replication then maybe you should watch all that Russ has videoed - that seems to be the main reason he did that, to help people copy him.

Russ has been trying to duplicate Bob Rohner's experiments, and it would also be useful to watch his videos, too.

Quote from FaradayEZ on October 18th, 2012, 02:05 PM

Quote from k c dias on October 18th, 2012, 08:57 AM

I may be experiencing some of these same effects with my modified B&S engine.  My setup follows more closely to the JR arrangement (cylinder coils, RF, and automotive ignition coils) rather than the BR arrangement (sometimes cylinder coils, sometimes not, no RF, rather large capacitive discharge).  I get flashes in the chamber (as viewed through the small glass port) but no kick.  

kcd

Why not use the kick, get some capacitors into it like Russ did?

EZ,

I may have to resort to more input power, but first I want to thoroughly explore using the wimpy automotive ignition coil method.  Besides, one discharge like Russ is using will totally obliterate the 1/16" tungsten electrodes I am using.

Opening the top and hosing down the exposed surfaces with insulating varnish is an easy modification, and from the discussion here, it seems it may have some merit.

kcd

Quote from Chan on October 17th, 2012, 06:28 PM

Russ,
A bit of food for the gray cells:
http://lenr.scienceontheweb.net/
Chan

Chan, is this what you are talking about?

[attachment=2526]

Quote from k c dias on October 18th, 2012, 04:19 PM

Quote from FaradayEZ on October 18th, 2012, 02:05 PM

Quote from k c dias on October 18th, 2012, 08:57 AM

I may be experiencing some of these same effects with my modified B&S engine.  My setup follows more closely to the JR arrangement (cylinder coils, RF, and automotive ignition coils) rather than the BR arrangement (sometimes cylinder coils, sometimes not, no RF, rather large capacitive discharge).  I get flashes in the chamber (as viewed through the small glass port) but no kick.  

kcd

Why not use the kick, get some capacitors into it like Russ did?

EZ,

I may have to resort to more input power, but first I want to thoroughly explore using the wimpy automotive ignition coil method.  Besides, one discharge like Russ is using will totally obliterate the 1/16" tungsten electrodes I am using.

Opening the top and hosing down the exposed surfaces with insulating varnish is an easy modification, and from the discussion here, it seems it may have some merit.

kcd

I think that doing something different to what Russ is doing is more valuable overall to the journey of understanding what is going on and I am sure Russ would enjoy learning something from other people's experiments at the same time.

Testing various different working hypotheses is a great approach for the general benefit and interest of us observers too! just video it please ? :)

been having no time to post but have been reading and i will try my best to replay to all the good stuff happening here tomorrow!! :)


it seems that the new Firefox browser is not liking the forums and is doing strange stuff with the function buttons... so i have been fighting that! downgraded and its fine so far... :)

be back soon to replay to the thoughts here! keep em cumming!
 ~Russ

Quote from k c dias on October 18th, 2012, 08:57 AM

I may be experiencing some of these same effects with my modified B&S engine.  My setup follows more closely to the JR arrangement (cylinder coils, RF, and automotive ignition coils) rather than the BR arrangement (sometimes cylinder coils, sometimes not, no RF, rather large capacitive discharge).  I get flashes in the chamber (as viewed through the small glass port) but no kick.  

With the automotive ignition coils (using 3), I am applying, comparatively, much less power to initiate a reaction, but I am wondering if insulating the interior walls of the chambers (both Russ's lower steel housing and cylinder/piston, when attached - and my piston, head, and cylinder extension) would help things along: a longer retention for Russ, and an actual pop initiation for me.  Obviously, as the piston moves, in either setup, the bare cylinder wall will be exposed, and a collapse will begin.   But perhaps, the initiation can begin with less input power.

I am thinking of using the red insulating varnish in a spray can, or a clear polyester powder coat for the insulating material.  I seem to recall JR mentioning using a hard anodize for the interior of the cylinder wall - a good insulator with good wear resistance.

Could this be what we are missing??

Do the popper kits call for steel head/piston?  Aluminum?  Plastic?

You popper kit guys (Chuck & Russ) throw us a bone here.....

kcd

Maybe you should at least use the power that Russ uses for the next POP, the 'green glow POP'

Isolating the chamber seems to me to be a good idea, you have to ionize the stuff and don't loose that energy to easily by letting it leak away. Maybe you can make a plastic piston a little bit smaller and insert a plastic wall inside the cylinder.

Secondly it is still very important that the way of ionisation is in line with what the gas inside needs to get aggitated. If you don't find out what the bounding frequencies are then how can you ever tune in the right ionisation? Either you hit the right note or you nuke the thing like Russ does, in between there seems to be no success. So if someone can find the ownfrequency of the binding between electron and helium molecuul, then you have the key to resonate it in a higher, looser orbit.

But i'm repeating myself for weeks already

Why are there five gases included in the Papp engine gas mix?



In 1927 Penning (Figure above) measured the breakdown voltage of a neon discharge as a function of pressure and distance between the electrodes. The result is known as the Paschen Curve, after Paschen who had discovered that the breakdown voltage is a function of the product of gas pressure and electrode distance.

Penning found that his results were only consistent if he used extremely pure neon. Minute traces of other gases, such as argon, lowered the breakdown voltage considerably (Fig. below).




Penning knew about the work of Dorgelo on metastable states. Metastable states in Neon had been discovered by Meissner in 1925. These are energy states well above ground state, from which all transitions to lower states are forbidden.

Atoms in these metastable states generally return to ground state by either going through a higher energy state or by a collision. As a result metastable states can have lifetimes in the order of a millisecond.

Penning proved that what was happening in his gas mixtures was that before the electrons have sufficient energy to ionize the neon, they can excite neon atoms, and these excited atoms can pass into metastable states.

Because of their relatively long lifetime, there is a high probability of collision with one of the impurity atoms. Argon has an ionization potential below the energy of metastable neon, so argon atoms will ionize leading to the initiation of the discharge. Such a gas mixture became known as a Penning Gas. It can be used to lower the breakdown voltage of a discharge tube, or to make the breakdown less dependent on the inter-electrode distance.

In summation, by providing a cascading discharge mechanism, the five gas Papp mix makes the spark electrode discharge distance far less of a factor in spark formation than a single pure gas or a limited combination of gases and this complex mix lowers the voltage required to produce a discharge.

The more gas impurities there are, the higher is the probability of a collision with one or more of the impurity atoms

Diaz,
Great progress so far. Dynamite approach, innovative and carefully
crafted. I believe you are very close to replication with a running
Noble Gas engine. By all means, keep going. More information at:  
http://noble.scienceontheweb.net/  
and
http://lenr.scienceontheweb.net/
God had blessed you.
Chan

Quote from Chan on October 20th, 2012, 07:24 AM

Diaz,
Great progress so far. Dynamite approach, innovative and carefully
crafted. I believe you are very close to replication with a running
Noble Gas engine. By all means, keep going. More information at:  
http://noble.scienceontheweb.net/  
and
http://lenr.scienceontheweb.net/
God had blessed you.
Chan

Chan,

Thanks!  It is something to work with and it keeps me out of trouble! :D
Great reading material, thank you.

kcd

Update: I did away with the magnetic flywheel sensor, and replaced with a photo interrupter.  The coil in the magnetic flywheel sensor makes for a great EMP sniffer coil, picks up the coils firing, and even the pulses to the cylinder coils (extra pulses - not a good thing).  Removed the head today to paint the interior with varnish.  For those of you concerned about oil contamination from running a wet crankcase, (I was concerned too), well, it is a problem.  Going forward with the paint to see If I can get some kind of a kick from the thing.  Next tear-down will evolve installing a sealed ball bearing and Rulon sleeve bearings for the rest.

kcd

Quote from k c dias on October 20th, 2012, 02:36 PM

Quote from Chan on October 20th, 2012, 07:24 AM

Diaz,
Great progress so far. Dynamite approach, innovative and carefully
crafted. I believe you are very close to replication with a running
Noble Gas engine. By all means, keep going. More information at:  
http://noble.scienceontheweb.net/  
and
http://lenr.scienceontheweb.net/
God had blessed you.
Chan

Chan,

Thanks!  It is something to work with and it keeps me out of trouble! :D
Great reading material, thank you.

kcd

Update: I did away with the magnetic flywheel sensor, and replaced with a photo interrupter.  The coil in the magnetic flywheel sensor makes for a great EMP sniffer coil, picks up the coils firing, and even the pulses to the cylinder coils (extra pulses - not a good thing).  Removed the head today to paint the interior with varnish.  For those of you concerned about oil contamination from running a wet crankcase, (I was concerned too), well, it is a problem.  Going forward with the paint to see If I can get some kind of a kick from the thing.  Next tear-down will evolve installing a sealed ball bearing and Rulon sleeve bearings for the rest.

kcd

Try lowering the cylinder gas pressure in small experimental increments until your engine pops. A weak spark cannot handle a dense gas. See the Paschen Curve in my last post.

Hi Russ and everyone else,
do someone have the Book ignition secrets? When you put a HV-Diode in the Way between batterie an spark plug you can get a much higher Spark. minimum 30kV.
In industry it called plasma jet ignition. Search in You tube on "Segelohrenbob". In his video Zündspulengeheimnisse he show the plan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sSmYe215Q4&feature=g-all-u


My next claim is construct it with more than one diode chain. evertime 2diode more. In this way, my theory, the Spark Firing should be timed more briefly because the capacity is a bit different. Can anyone confirm this?

Hope my thoughts are right.

Quote from Axil on October 20th, 2012, 04:24 PM

Try lowering the cylinder gas pressure in small experimental increments until your engine pops. A weak spark cannot handle a dense gas. See the Paschen Curve in my last post.

Axil, thanks!

I will try some lower pressures.

Does Dalton's Law of partial pressures apply to the mixtures?  I have zoomed in on the higher pressure portions of the curves for He, Ar, and Ne from the same plot you have posted.  See this post:
http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=2274
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=659&pid=7865#pid7865

And a proposed three gas mix:

Quote

kcd

Update: I did away with the magnetic flywheel sensor, and replaced with a photo interrupter.  The coil in the magnetic flywheel sensor makes for a great EMP sniffer coil, picks up the coils firing, and even the pulses to the cylinder coils (extra pulses - not a good thing).  Removed the head today to paint the interior with varnish.  For those of you concerned about oil contamination from running a wet crankcase, (I was concerned too), well, it is a problem.  Going forward with the paint to see If I can get some kind of a kick from the thing.  Next tear-down will evolve installing a sealed ball bearing and Rulon sleeve bearings for the rest.

kcd

The Photo interrupter will be good for control on velocity and position, but I'm not sure you will learn much about the gas activity. The flywheel sensor might be valuable to use in trying to characterize the plasma activity if its as sensitive as you mention. The piston is hollow so the gas may be doing different things than the piston. I thing its behavior in the cylinder should be characterized.  

Photo Interrupters have delays of about 3 microseconds. That needs to be factored in to any control usage. Yes, it would work well for timing the spark, I was just saying that the magnetic detector may tell us a lot more about the gas behavior if we try and characterize the gas movement. The current in the gas can be characterized, a lot of information possible.

Quote from k c dias on October 21st, 2012, 10:05 AM

Quote from Axil on October 20th, 2012, 04:24 PM

Try lowering the cylinder gas pressure in small experimental increments until your engine pops. A weak spark cannot handle a dense gas. See the Paschen Curve in my last post.

Axil, thanks!

I will try some lower pressures.

Does Dalton's Law of partial pressures apply to the mixtures?  I have zoomed in on the higher pressure portions of the curves for He, Ar, and Ne from the same plot you have posted.  See this post:
http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=2274
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=659&pid=7865#pid7865

And a proposed three gas mix:

There is a type of chemical structure called superatoms that is a level of atomic organization that lies between the atom/molecule and the nano-particle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superatom

Noble gases readily form these kinds of structures, and these clusters can be very complex.

For example, Helium and Xenon form a family of atomic clusters that behaves like argon.



The superatom has a positively charged ionic core composed of possibly hundreds of ionized atoms. Around this core of positive charged ions swarm a loosely connected flight of electrons orbiting on the outside of the cluster core and can be easily removed from the cluster by ionization
.
Noble gas clusters can reverse the electrostatic nature of noble gases and behave like alkali metals in terms of ionization energy.



In summary, the only way to find out the details of how the Papp engine really works is to do vast numbers of experiments.

For this reason, I am hoping that the members of our forum who are energetic enough to do these experiments will not tire or lose interest and will share their results no matter what these experiments show.

Quote from Axil on October 21st, 2012, 03:15 PM

In summary, the only way to find out the details of how the Papp engine really works is to do vast numbers of experiments.

For this reason, I am hoping that the members of our forum who are energetic enough to do these experiments will not tire or lose interest and will share their results no matter what these experiments show.

Well.... i asked you twice already (no reply) to check the tests of you that i have put in the testsheets document.

And these matters you can also put in there. :)

http://open-source-energy.org/rwg42985/popper/

Quote from FaradayEZ on October 21st, 2012, 09:39 PM

Quote from Axil on October 21st, 2012, 03:15 PM

In summary, the only way to find out the details of how the Papp engine really works is to do vast numbers of experiments.

For this reason, I am hoping that the members of our forum who are energetic enough to do these experiments will not tire or lose interest and will share their results no matter what these experiments show.

Well.... i asked you twice already (no reply) to check the tests of you that i have put in the testsheets document.

And these matters you can also put in there. :)

http://open-source-energy.org/rwg42985/popper/

When we make an experimental change to the popper test configuration, we need feedback data to see if we are going in the right or wrong direction.

Before we come up with a test plan, we need to define what that instrumentation of the popper is comprised of.

The main piece of data that would be nice to have is a record of the power and energy that the piston produces.

This data should be collected automatically by using a data acquisition pressure sensor which is read automatically by a computer and profiled to a spreadsheet. The spreadsheet can then be used to form data plots and correlations of the piston force as the experimental variable is changed.

As an example, by increasing the gas pressure in the cylinder, by N minibars, how does the force of the piston increase/decrease?

This data should come out as a family of plots using the cylinder gas pressure as an independent variable.

Another data stream that should be provided is the strength and energy content of the feedback current.

Another independent experimental variable could be the gas or gases used and their mix by percentage.

A automatically generated family of data plots produced by computer should reflect the magnitude and timing of the voltage(V), and current(I) of the feedback current that is generated as the independent experimental variable is increased/decreased(i.e., cylinder pressure).

All plots should include the input power profile of the spark and the assoceated energy gain as reflected in the sum of the mechanical power produced by the piston and the electrical power/energy that is derived by the feedback current.

This is an important requirement to prove that the Popper is an over unity device, that is, the Popper generates more energy output than the input energy warrants.  

I am waiting to see what Russ has in mind to support his data collection process. After all, he is the man, the one in control, and calling the shots.

There are usually computer literate programmers in forums like this willing to donate their expertise and experience to automate the drudgery of experimentation.

Dr. James Truchard President, CEO, and Cofounder of National Instruments is excited about LENR. If he is approached properly, Truchard may be persuaded to provide Russ with a free copy of LabView and associated test equipment to support Russ’s testing.

See 15:10 into this video for Truchard's offer of free LabView for LENR.  However, you should watch the entire video to get a feel for automated experimentation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NxjxFdFEBsw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NxjxFdFEBsw#!




Let's talk about this.

Quote from Axil on October 21st, 2012, 11:09 PM

Dr. James Truchard President, CEO, and Cofounder of National Instruments is excited about LENR. If he is approached properly, Truchard may be persuaded to provide Russ with a free copy of LabView and associated test equipment to support Russ’s testing.

Let's talk about this.

Looks like a decent opportunity!
And maybe alongside the software usage, he can find and introduce some students of the university he has ties with to make a project on the popper?