Quote from TinMan on September 12th, 2012, 07:41 AM

Well Russ
After seeing the kit-i hope you get your money back.
I thought it came with the cylender,piston-the whole shooting match that they showed in the advertisment for it??
I hate to say it-but that looks more like a $35.oo kit-not $350.oo.
I know you said you wernt takeing side's-but after seeing that little rip off--im sticking with Bob.
As soon as i get my system to stop blowing the tungsten rod's to bits-i will post a video and scematic of a far more powerful system that anyone can build and afford.
What i have seen from that kit Russ is that they should have employed you to build there electronic circuit for them lol.
You could say you give more bang for the buck .

I would have to agree with you Tinman.

Quote from Jeff Nading on September 12th, 2012, 06:57 AM

Yes the Lawton circuit is just one part of the larger circuit to cause the spark, it just creates the pulse needed to excite the primary of a step up transformer to induce a much larger voltage to create the spark, much the same way the points were used in the old style ignition systems. This could be done using the simplest form of the 555 timer circuit. Using the same means you can create a much larger and much hotter spark, of course with different components. The video was just to show one that it could be done. Also, an off the shelf spark plug could be modified to give the plasmatic effect. :D

Whatever circuit you choose to make, you will need the main switch for driving the coils. (One each per coil)  I am using one that is specifically made for driving automotive coils, has the diode protection and gate drive circuit built in.  Just send it a 5 volt pulse through a 1K ohm resistor, and that's it.  If using a 555, also consider using a one-shot (74121, or possibly a 74123) to set the pulse width (power on time) to the coil.  It doesn't need much more than a 4ms (your coil specifications may vary) on pulse, (charge time).

The part is ISL9V3040P3 (the 'P3' is TO-220 package)  First page of data sheet:

Enjoy,

kcd

Edit:  One additional note:  I am planning on using this same part for switching on the cylinder coils as well.

Quote from k c dias on September 12th, 2012, 10:32 AM

Quote from Jeff Nading on September 12th, 2012, 06:57 AM

Yes the Lawton circuit is just one part of the larger circuit to cause the spark, it just creates the pulse needed to excite the primary of a step up transformer to induce a much larger voltage to create the spark, much the same way the points were used in the old style ignition systems. This could be done using the simplest form of the 555 timer circuit. Using the same means you can create a much larger and much hotter spark, of course with different components. The video was just to show one that it could be done. Also, an off the shelf spark plug could be modified to give the plasmatic effect. :D

Whatever circuit you choose to make, you will need the main switch for driving the coils. (One each per coil)  I am using one that is specifically made for driving automotive coils, has the diode protection and gate drive circuit built in.  Just send it a 5 volt pulse through a 1K ohm resistor, and that's it.  If using a 555, also consider using a one-shot (74121, or possibly a 74123) to set the pulse width (power on time) to the coil.  It doesn't need much more than a 4ms (your coil specifications may vary) on pulse, (charge time).

The part is ISL9V3040P3 (the 'P3' is TO-220 package)  First page of data sheet:

Enjoy,

kcd

Edit:  One additional note:  I am planning on using this same part for switching on the cylinder coils as well.

Thanks for the excellent info KC.:cool:

Quote from zerwell on September 11th, 2012, 04:30 PM

Hello fellow poppers,

Speaking of Poppers...I finally received my Plasmerg popper kit, after 5 weeks on back-order.

I tested it today and am very pleased with its operation.  Here's a link to the test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lFt_q69dxk  All the parts you see are it.  The rest has to be aquired elsewhere.  Still...the kit is worth a lot more than the $350...just in intelectual property alone.  Now, I have to adapt the kit to run my 5 HP B&S engine...which means building a whole new piston head.  But, "There is no free lunch".  Back to work I go.

Chuck

Chuck,

There is no RF generator circuit??  Cylinder coil(s) driver circuit??  Do you have the schematics for the RF circuit??  See attached photo:

Can you provide a scope trace of the primary driver side to the coils?  It sounds like there is a multi-burst output going to the coils.  This might be their approach for doing away with the RF, just buzz it with the HV coils 'till it pops.  Ok for a popper, but no time for that kind of foolishness for an engine, at least one running any type of respectable speed.  (In an engine application, it needs to fire on que, not just when it gets around to it.)

kcd

Quote from k c dias on September 12th, 2012, 11:11 AM

Quote from zerwell on September 11th, 2012, 04:30 PM

Hello fellow poppers,

Speaking of Poppers...I finally received my Plasmerg popper kit, after 5 weeks on back-order.

I tested it today and am very pleased with its operation.  Here's a link to the test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lFt_q69dxk  All the parts you see are it.  The rest has to be aquired elsewhere.  Still...the kit is worth a lot more than the $350...just in intelectual property alone.  Now, I have to adapt the kit to run my 5 HP B&S engine...which means building a whole new piston head.  But, "There is no free lunch".  Back to work I go.

Chuck

Chuck,

There is no RF generator circuit??  Cylinder coil(s) driver circuit??  Do you have the schematics for the RF circuit??  See attached photo:

kcd

KCD,

The manual calls for using an old CB radio tuned to channel 12.  The CB antenna output is connected to a fitting that you scrounge from somewhere.  Your're supposed to drill a hole in the head and run the RF antenna wire in a semi circle inside the head cavity.  When you get ready to fire the piston, you turn on the 60V DC to your homemade coil, key the CB talk button, then hit the red button on the control box.  You're supposed to get a "pop" movement of the piston.  Crude, yes.  But, it is supposed to demonstrate the "Plasma Transition" principal.

Chuck

Quote from zerwell on September 12th, 2012, 11:27 AM

KCD,

The manual calls for using an old CB radio tuned to channel 12.  The CB antenna output is connected to a fitting that you scrounge from somewhere.  Your're supposed to drill a hole in the head and run the RF antenna wire in a semi circle inside the head cavity.  When you get ready to fire the piston, you turn on the 60V DC to your homemade coil, key the CB talk button, then hit the red button on the control box.  You're supposed to get a "pop" movement of the piston.  Crude, yes.  But, it is supposed to demonstrate the "Plasma Transition" principal.

Chuck

Chuck,

Thank you so much for the info!  I do have a CB radio that I was going to use, I will stay on that track.  I also have a 100W linear amp, sounds like it is not used for the kit.  Got any more info on the cylinder coils?  Wire gauge, number of turns, and inside diameter for each of the two coils?  Voltage and expected current?

Thanks,

kcd

Quote from k c dias on September 12th, 2012, 11:57 AM

Quote from zerwell on September 12th, 2012, 11:27 AM

KCD,

The manual calls for using an old CB radio tuned to channel 12.  The CB antenna output is connected to a fitting that you scrounge from somewhere.  Your're supposed to drill a hole in the head and run the RF antenna wire in a semi circle inside the head cavity.  When you get ready to fire the piston, you turn on the 60V DC to your homemade coil, key the CB talk button, then hit the red button on the control box.  You're supposed to get a "pop" movement of the piston.  Crude, yes.  But, it is supposed to demonstrate the "Plasma Transition" principal.

Chuck

Chuck,

Thank you so much for the info!  I do have a CB radio that I was going to use, I will stay on that track.  I also have a 100W linear amp, sounds like it is not used for the kit.  Got any more info on the cylinder coils?  Wire gauge, number of turns, and inside diameter for each of the two coils?  Voltage and expected current?

Thanks,

kcd

KCD,

There were no markings on the coils.  From their configuration they definately look like "WeaponX" coils and plugs.  See the earlier link on those.

Chuck

This is a very interesting read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashtube

Was curious if there were any statements about an increase in pressure during operation.  And well.......

"A major factor affecting efficiency is the amount of gas behind the electrodes, or the "dead volume". A higher dead volume leads to a lower pressure increase during operation."

"Flashtubes operate at high pressures and are known to explode, producing violent shockwaves."

If this has been known about xenon flash tubes, WHY can't folks (Dr. Feynman, et al) wrap they little heads around the Papp engine??  Poo!!!

kcd

I'm curious if the 15 page manual can be scanned in and made available here?

Or is that copyright invrinsment?

Well..lol..like with utube..if the owner complaints...then we put the info down...


If he can con we can't?

EZ..dancing the yes we can can?


No not on cloggs those days are 100 years ago..grr

Quote from zerwell on September 12th, 2012, 01:18 PM

KCD,

There were no markings on the coils.  From their configuration they definately look like "WeaponX" coils and plugs.  See the earlier link on those.

Chuck

Chuck,

Looking for more information for the home-made coils wrapped around the cylinder - sorry for the confusion.

kcd

Quote from FaradayEZ on September 12th, 2012, 01:20 PM

I'm curious if the 15 page manual can be scanned in and made available here?

Or is that copyright invrinsment?

Well..lol..like with utube..if the owner complaints...then we put the info down...


If he can con we can't?

EZ..dancing the yes we can can?

Guys,

I would like to post the manual, but it would be a clear violation of copyright laws and my license agreement with Inteligentry.

I may have said too much already...so with that, I will make no more mention of the manual's information...sorry:(

Regards,

Chuck

Quote from zerwell on September 12th, 2012, 03:51 PM

Quote from FaradayEZ on September 12th, 2012, 01:20 PM

I'm curious if the 15 page manual can be scanned in and made available here?

Or is that copyright invrinsment?

Well..lol..like with utube..if the owner complaints...then we put the info down...


If he can con we can't?

EZ..dancing the yes we can can?

Guys,

I would like to post the manual, but it would be a clear violation of copyright laws and my license agreement with Inteligentry.

I may have said too much already...so with that, I will make no more mention of the manual's information...sorry:(

Regards,

Chuck

No problem Chuck, we understand, thanks.:D

Quote from zerwell on September 12th, 2012, 03:51 PM

Guys,

I would like to post the manual, but it would be a clear violation of copyright laws and my license agreement with Inteligentry.

I may have said too much already...so with that, I will make no more mention of the manual's information...sorry:(

Regards,

Chuck

Chuck,

You have made the right decision, my hat goes off to you.  But I do want to ask one thing.  With the information you now have in hand, are you ready to cut off those cooling fins on the B&S engine to make room for the cylinder coils?? (see the photos I have posted)  Just curious...

kcd

Quote from zerwell on September 12th, 2012, 03:51 PM

Quote from FaradayEZ on September 12th, 2012, 01:20 PM

Guys,

I would like to post the manual, but it would be a clear violation of copyright laws and my license agreement with Inteligentry.

I may have said too much already...so with that, I will make no more mention of the manual's information...sorry:(

Regards,

Chuck

Hello Zerwell

You are in a license agreement with Inteligentry! Well that is interesting, glad to see you here. :)
 
I understand that due to this agreement there are some things you can not say. We do not want you to break any agreements.

But if you don’t mind me asking! Multiple choice questions. :rolleyes:

Have you seen a running engine from John?

A. Yes I have seen one run.
B. Maybe.
C. No

Are you 100% confident that John has an engine that does work.

A. Yes
B. Maybe
C. No

If you have seen an engine of Johns running, then why are you building a popper kit?

We understand if you can’t answer it is no reflection on you.

element 119

Chuck's one of the good guys, element119. Just sayin'

Quote from element 119 on September 12th, 2012, 07:00 PM

Quote from zerwell on September 12th, 2012, 03:51 PM

Quote from FaradayEZ on September 12th, 2012, 01:20 PM

Guys,

I would like to post the manual, but it would be a clear violation of copyright laws and my license agreement with Inteligentry.

I may have said too much already...so with that, I will make no more mention of the manual's information...sorry:(

Regards,

Chuck

Hello Zerwell

You are in a license agreement with Inteligentry! Well that is interesting, glad to see you here. :)
 
I understand that due to this agreement there are some things you can not say. We do not want you to break any agreements.

But if you don’t mind me asking! Multiple choice questions. :rolleyes:

Have you seen a running engine from John?

A. Yes I have seen one run.
B. Maybe.
C. No

Are you 100% confident that John has an engine that does work.

A. Yes
B. Maybe
C. No

If you have seen an engine of Johns running, then why are you building a popper kit?

We understand if you can’t answer it is no reflection on you.

element 119

No doubt Chuck will confirm this for himself, but the license would cover the Popper only not the main engines.  There would be a different set of licenses managing the fabrication of the engines.

As with all of this stuff, they are a commercial company and would not simply release their data with the potential for individuals to release into the world without some recourse to claim financial damages / recompense.

Chuck only has a popper kit. Under the agreement of the information that you receive from the kit you're not allowed to share it as it's semi disclose for use of purchaser only..

Chuck is doing a wonderful job and he is trying to open source the information. Unfortunately that's not going to happen.  i stated this in the video.  you'll see right now,


Please see my latest update video. Here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Efw9SJzlhOw

I need everyone to go here and make a vote:

please answer the poll here:
http://rwgresearch.com/open-projects/the-papp-noble-gas-engine/


Also got the test replica done. And, the piston! This turned out surprisingly well and I'm extremely happy with it here are some photos this is not yet in the video I just got done with that...

[attachment=2191]
[attachment=2190]
[attachment=2189]
[attachment=2188]
[attachment=2187]

Guys,

I would like to post the manual, but it would be a clear violation of copyright laws and my license agreement with Inteligentry.

I may have said too much already...so with that, I will make no more mention of the manual's information...sorry:(

Regards,

Chuck

~~~~~~~~~~

Ok, and i guess that the same goes for Russ. But then the question is..where is the border of open source?

Without direct copying one still can in one's own words describe what one is doing?

The Papp patents are already public domain, so only the things that Dr.dr. does really different, and are claimed in his patents, are the things he can sue on.

We need someone who knows a bit more about this, because it will become more important for an open source organization to know how to stay within the law.

Otherwise we get scared into ways and can't even do a project like building a popper etc. And what about me being in a different country.

And what about if chuck loses the manual?

We must not become holier then the pope :angel:

Some more photos:
1) 1/4" Parker Yor-Lok stock panel mount coupling, and modifications to the same.
2) Fittings installed in head (aluminum), will be using 1/4" PTFE hollow noodle (not pictured) in the fittings as an insulator for the electrodes and RF lead.
3) Bottom view of head, note glass port (1/4" x 3/4"), not epoxied in yet.
4) Piston with aluminum piston extension.
5) Piston bottom view.
6) Drilling the equalization port.
7) Completed port (0.100" dia.)
8) Port extended up the cylinder wall to vent above the top piston ring in the bottom dead center position.
9) Aluminum cylinder extension.
10) Cylinder extension epoxied and pressed on.
11) Cylinder head in place.

More to come when available.

Enjoy,

kcd

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on September 13th, 2012, 03:45 AM

Chuck only has a popper kit. Under the agreement of the information that you receive from the kit you're not allowed to share it as it's semi disclose for use of purchaser only..

I need everyone to go here and make a vote:

please answer the poll here:
http://rwgresearch.com/open-projects/the-papp-noble-gas-engine/

Russ, I'll make my vote here:

NO offense to Chuck, but if you go through with the receipt of the plasmerg popper and sign the agreement (for information that was reported by Dan Glover (several times) in the video to be PUBLIC DOMAIN) of non-disclosure, then you become quite USELESS to the rest of us here.  That statement may be a bit selfish on my part, but we are all here to help anyone that want's the info to take it.

Just my opinion, I could be right.

kcd

PS.  Poo!  I thought this was going to be a separate post!

Quote from k c dias on September 13th, 2012, 11:21 AM

Some more photos:
1) 1/4" Parker Yor-Lok stock panel mount coupling, and modifications to the same.
2) Fittings installed in head (aluminum), will be using 1/4" PTFE hollow noodle (not pictured) in the fittings as an insulator for the electrodes and RF lead.
3) Bottom view of head, note glass port (1/4" x 3/4"), not epoxied in yet.
4) Piston with aluminum piston extension.
5) Piston bottom view.
6) Drilling the equalization port.
7) Completed port (0.100" dia.)
8) Port extended up the cylinder wall to vent above the top piston ring in the bottom dead center position.
9) Aluminum cylinder extension.
10) Cylinder extension epoxied and pressed on.
11) Cylinder head in place.

More to come when available.

Enjoy,

kcd

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on September 13th, 2012, 03:45 AM

Chuck only has a popper kit. Under the agreement of the information that you receive from the kit you're not allowed to share it as it's semi disclose for use of purchaser only..

I need everyone to go here and make a vote:

please answer the poll here:
http://rwgresearch.com/open-projects/the-papp-noble-gas-engine/

Russ, I'll make my vote here:

NO offense to Chuck, but if you go through with the receipt of the plasmerg popper and sign the agreement (for information that was reported by Dan Glover (several times) in the video to be PUBLIC DOMAIN) of non-disclosure, then you become quite USELESS to the rest of us here.  That statement may be a bit selfish on my part, but we are all here to help anyone that want's the info to take it.

Just my opinion, I could be right.

kcd

PS.  Poo!  I thought this was going to be a separate post!

Wow, that's some very nice work KC.:cool::D:P

The more I think about this plasmerg-supposed-to be-public-domain-but-is not-popper-kit, the more I get pissed off!!

I may be building a John type engine, but as of now, I'm joining the Bob team!

A note to Mr Bob Rohner:  You may already have a controller for your 2 cylinder engine, or maybe it still needs to be made.  Either way, I have a controller, of my own design, that is fully adaptable for 1, 2, 4 cylinders, a separate MPU for each subsystem (makes programming much more straight forward) that may suit your needs.  I will post the schematic and code here for everyone to use and modify to suit their own needs.

kcd

Quote from Jeff Nading on September 13th, 2012, 12:08 PM

Quote from k c dias on September 13th, 2012, 11:21 AM

Some more photos:
1) 1/4" Parker Yor-Lok stock panel mount coupling, and modifications to the same.
2) Fittings installed in head (aluminum), will be using 1/4" PTFE hollow noodle (not pictured) in the fittings as an insulator for the electrodes and RF lead.
3) Bottom view of head, note glass port (1/4" x 3/4"), not epoxied in yet.
4) Piston with aluminum piston extension.
5) Piston bottom view.
6) Drilling the equalization port.
7) Completed port (0.100" dia.)
8) Port extended up the cylinder wall to vent above the top piston ring in the bottom dead center position.
9) Aluminum cylinder extension.
10) Cylinder extension epoxied and pressed on.
11) Cylinder head in place.

More to come when available.

Enjoy,

kcd

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on September 13th, 2012, 03:45 AM

Chuck only has a popper kit. Under the agreement of the information that you receive from the kit you're not allowed to share it as it's semi disclose for use of purchaser only..

I need everyone to go here and make a vote:

please answer the poll here:
http://rwgresearch.com/open-projects/the-papp-noble-gas-engine/

Russ, I'll make my vote here:

NO offense to Chuck, but if you go through with the receipt of the plasmerg popper and sign the agreement (for information that was reported by Dan Glover (several times) in the video to be PUBLIC DOMAIN) of non-disclosure, then you become quite USELESS to the rest of us here.  That statement may be a bit selfish on my part, but we are all here to help anyone that want's the info to take it.

Just my opinion, I could be right.

kcd

PS.  Poo!  I thought this was going to be a separate post!

Wow, that's some very nice work KC.:cool::D:P

KCD,

No offense taken.  The option is: Buy your own popper Kit!  By the way...nice work.  Good pics.  Thanks for sharing.

Chuck

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on September 13th, 2012, 03:45 AM

Chuck only has a popper kit. Under the agreement of the information that you receive from the kit you're not allowed to share it as it's semi disclose for use of purchaser only..

Chuck is doing a wonderful job and he is trying to open source the information. Unfortunately that's not going to happen.  i stated this in the video.  you'll see right now,


Please see my latest update video. Here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Efw9SJzlhOw

I need everyone to go here and make a vote:

please answer the poll here:
http://rwgresearch.com/open-projects/the-papp-noble-gas-engine/


Also got the test replica done. And, the piston! This turned out surprisingly well and I'm extremely happy with it here are some photos this is not yet in the video I just got done with that...

Hello ,
           just watched your video thanks for posting update . About putting epoxy on glass view port , I would not recommend this as I suspect you will get outgassing and contamination when you go to vacuum out cylinder .. (if you put epoxy inside cylinder)

                                                             Joe.

                                                                                       Joe.

Quote from Jeff Nading on September 13th, 2012, 12:08 PM

Wow, that's some very nice work KC.:cool::D:P

Quote from zerwell on September 13th, 2012, 01:07 PM

By the way...nice work.  Good pics.  Thanks for sharing.

Chuck

Jeff, Chuck,

Thank you, glad to help!

kcd

Quote from Jeff Nading on August 1st, 2012, 04:52 AM

How about setting up an Arduino mega to run this engine, I think it would also need hall effect transducers
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_effect_sensor
for timing of motion, to fire the electronics at the right time. They say their engine will produce 180 HP, 2 cylinders, I think that could be doubled or close to it with four cylinders, would produce at least 300 HP, enough to move a car or light truck, 6 cylinders would be better yet. An aluminum block, virtually no heat involved, no radiator, no water jacket or pump. I see this really taking off. Wish I had the money to become one of the engine builders, what a trip that would be.:cool::D:P

The main drawback to using this process with an ICE is the reaction time of gasoline, which the ICE works very well at 25% efficiency, that being the limit due to its design, not its fuel application. (one power stroke drives the other three strokes.) The boxer engine improves on that by exerting opposing forces in a sequential fashion. This still uses a cranking motion that increases power loss,not gainful. A rotary engine, on the other hand, if designed properly, will increase efficicacy if the intake and compression strokes are eliminated as my new design, the Rotary Radial Turbine does. There is only a power stroke AND exhaust stroke occuring at any instant. The vanes recede into the rotor following an ecentric curve on the casing of the engine. This curve allows the intake charge to be exposed to a plasma discharge,then expel the previous expended charge thru a check valve on the exhaust port positioned ahead of the vane as it is propelled by the exothermic reaction of the process. If a magnetically inert sheild were used in the area of the combustion area of the process, it would repress the heat generated from the plasma discharge to be transfered to the outside containment walls,thereby containing the heat and conversion to more kinetic work potential. My newest design takes advantage of this principle, making over 320hp in current testing. I have used some PaPP principles, and some Stan Meyer guidelines in designing my present engine layouts and designs. Recycling the gasses is no big feat,as exhaust gas recirculation has been around since the 70's. I have been using water recirculated to form methane from natgas as a fuel, as well as methyl based fuel alternatives.( Low to no pollution) Most of what is used in the papp process is already explained in modern science and not a mystery. I can only imagine this the reason for its repression by all parties involved. so far..John tried to patent the process, and it hasnt been challenged in court(by Papp? He's dead.) Bob,I guess, is attempting to draw investers,(not a bad idea..)but most investers demand a prototype, not a model, which most dont understand, they just want something to produce and a patent and business plan to move forward. If bob or john can put together a working engine, it would be beneficial for all to do so. If I may suggest, there are sites like kickstarter on the web,who have much success in promoting the research and development of world changing elements for the good of everyone. They have raised millions(yes, MILLIONS)for things as redundant as a new type of watch(pebble)by letting donors be first in line  for a working product.artinvegas..