Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.

~Russ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #100, on August 29th, 2012, 04:06 AM »Last edited on August 29th, 2012, 04:07 AM by ~Russ/Rwg42985
This post has to do with the story about magnetic induction fraud...

See here:

http://pesn.com/2012/08/24/9602167_Noble_Gas_Plasma_or_Aluminum_Ring_Electromagnet/

I did some tests.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTq10QwUh0g&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 My conclusion is this is not the answer... Lol  

Time will tell if it works or not. Hope soon...

TinMan

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #101, on August 29th, 2012, 06:03 AM »
Well which unit do we build.The john or bob popper?
One has some flash electronics and frequencies,while the other just seems to discharge a large current into the cylinder useing caps and good old mechanical relay's.
There is only one way to find out if its legit-and that is to build the darn thing.
What i see so far on both side's is two brothers at war.
One saying the others machine dosnt work,and the other putting out vidios saying that the device your going to build will explode and take your eye out.

So one has kits for sale,so you can build and see it work for your self-but has never shown a working modle.
And the other brother showing a working modle-but not willing to give full build details.

Man-anyone for hot dogs???

~Russ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #102, on August 29th, 2012, 07:13 AM »Last edited on August 29th, 2012, 07:19 AM by ~Russ/Rwg42985
Quote from TinMan on August 29th, 2012, 06:03 AM
Well which unit do we build.The john or bob popper?
One has some flash electronics and frequencies,while the other just seems to discharge a large current into the cylinder useing caps and good old mechanical relay's.
There is only one way to find out if its legit-and that is to build the darn thing.
What i see so far on both side's is two brothers at war.
One saying the others machine dosnt work,and the other putting out vidios saying that the device your going to build will explode and take your eye out.

So one has kits for sale,so you can build and see it work for your self-but has never shown a working modle.
And the other brother showing a working modle-but not willing to give full build details.

Man-anyone for hot dogs???
HOD GOGS!!! i want one!

ok tin man...

you asked.. here is my answer as stated before.

ALL collected Information i'm posting here from both brothers.

like i say im not for one or the other... and here is why:

READ THE PATENTS. then you will see that there both on the same track...

Patents attached to this post: http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=659&pid=7170#pid7170

so i look i see i test and i show...

by the end of it they may and a war for each other... but im just soaking up information and i'm going to apply it to my research...

READ the patents. look at whats round, TEST TEST TEST... :)

be calm tinman! lol i know this is all thronging you around! lol

Manny blessings to all! ~Russ
RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #103, on August 29th, 2012, 09:54 AM »Last edited on August 29th, 2012, 06:25 PM by ~Russ/Rwg42985
Guys, looks like I'll be deleting some of the prior posts. Please see this new video from Bob.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gh6JVLu3OIs

Bob as I stated before I was curious for the edits and you came back with this video.  Like I said I am against no one. You're not going to be able convince everyone. Trust me you may as well stick to your research continue doing what you're doing keep posting videos and people can judge how they wish but don't worry about it. if you don't share information ( videos) it will be lost forever. And all your hard work will be gone.  

I hope you continue making videos and continue making progress. Many thanks to you Bob, I also respect that you were trying to make a public announcement on these popper kits. I think you made a good point and people should be extremely careful and aware of what's going on

Tinman, don't know what you said but bob did not like it. Sorry to here about what ever happen. I'm not sure what it was. I was at the other end of an email that I had nothing to do with and bob got nasty. But he did apologize as he did not know who to trust. Looks like the same thing just happend.


As i stated before. Until I test this for myself it will always be up in the air. And then even after I test it and may not get it to work. That doesn't mean it doesn't work it just means I don't have that enough knowledge to make it work

That's the way I see most devices

 My thought on fraud is. If you're all talk and no show sort of like someone else we know you probably are a fraud. If you have a whole bunch of working devices and you show them but nobody can replicate it doesn't mean your fraud ( bob )it just means that nobody else has the correct knowledge to get it to work. You never know who is and who isn't a fraud. But like I say that you try it yourself you won't know

Update video today. It's been a little crazy lately...

~Russ

KevinW_EnhancedLiving


~Russ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #105, on August 30th, 2012, 02:17 AM »Last edited on August 30th, 2012, 02:47 AM by ~Russ/Rwg42985

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_tllzthsOQ

Newest update from me...

Also

i was talking about the radioactive stuff...

well here is my thoughts on why it is the way it is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_decay

"Most of the helium produced on Earth (approximately 99% of it) is the result of the alpha decay of underground deposits of minerals containing uranium or thorium."

on the subject of the helium being used in the process the thorium will replace it... HUMMMM

so what i have learned is alpha radiation will help ionize the gas:

"Americium-241, an alpha emitter, is used in smoke detectors. The alpha particles ionize air between a small gap. A small current is passed through that ionized air. Smoke particles from fire that enter the air gap reduce the current flow, sounding the alarm."

so in this case we all ready are helping the gas start the ionizing process... this way we can use less voltage. and replacing the Helium that may be consumed ( in the patents it stated that the helium is being used but the other gasses will compensate for the losses) , or the alpha radiation will re place the lost helium atoms... ??? im starting to see why this gas mix may last forever...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium
"thorium-232, which undergoes alpha decay with a half-life of about 14.05 billion years."

think about it... lol crazy stuff. that tinny bit of radiation will keep the gas in stable state for a long long time... too cool.

~Russ

more on rubidium:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubidium

"Rubidium has been used for polarizing 3He, producing volumes of magnetized 3He gas, with the nuclear spins aligned toward a particular direction in space, rather than randomly. "

"Rubidium has also been considered for use in a thermoelectric generator using the magnetohydrodynamic principle, where rubidium ions are formed by heat at high temperature and passed through a magnetic field.[32] These conduct electricity and act like an armature of a generator thereby generating an electric current."

"One of the main uses is in myocardial perfusion imaging. The very short half-life of 76 seconds makes it necessary to produce the rubidium-82 from decay of strontium-82"

now we know why we can use strontium-82 instead of rubidum-82 ???
but theses are different than strontium-38 i beleave...  

ah i see that strontium-82 is a radioactive isotope of strontium-38...

FaradayEZ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #106, on August 30th, 2012, 06:31 AM »Last edited on April 12th, 2013, 06:11 AM by FaradayEZ
I don't believe Dr. Dr. John provides any anodes or cathodes  so I guess you don't need to worry about this aspect anyway. You will need the five gasses in lab bottles and xenon is pretty ***** expensive, You will need to buy regulators for the tanks, syringes, non-coring needles, and septums for injecting differing percentages of gas.  Digital pressure gages are a must.

My presentation at the tesla show was all about the so called "popper" The main purpose was to 1) prove that Dr. DR. John was lying about us being a fraud and using air power and 2) that it is a total adiabatic process and so far unexplainable.  I have to get back to work. From how we work and what we do I still see no way for him to produce any power but I wish you luck.

Bob

~~~~~~~~

Great work Bob, hat's of to you and your brother.

Still i think it strange that you say "we are a profit business.." Cause in this way the dr.dr. is running with a part of it and selling licences and maybe ruining the whole thing due to being a scamm?? And you take years and years...

You must know the world is in dyer need of the papp engine.... and how many years are you planning to live of it in wealth? If you're scared for your old age then come live with me, you'll have food and a roof over ye head..

So the point is... make it open source and stop holding the world hostage..

Another question.. if i see the video with Allen... then i see that in the beginning of the video the electrode's are fired and also give of a kind of plasma burst? more light and a soundburst sow..what's up with that? Can the engine run with normal air?

Sorry about me being straight to ye, still hoping you'd give an awnser to this.






 




~Russ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #107, on August 30th, 2012, 05:14 PM »
Some
Ore thoughts on alfa radiation and Helium

Thorium 232 is the isotope we are playing with

http://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=555
Quote
You are correct: Alpha Particles are the same thing has Helium ions with a 2+ charge.

The alpha particle is indeed unstable and will react with almost any material in order to obtain the 2 electrons needed to fill its s orbital.

Alpha particles doesn't react chemically to form an ionic bond, as you are thinking. It merely steals the electrons, via a Coloumbic force. The victim, if you will, is left with a 2+ charge and is said to be ionized (or more likely there are two victims, each with a 1+ charge). That's one reason why alpha particles are called "ionizing" radiation. If the particle that is left with a 2+ charge is in the air, the affect is farely harmless. But alpha particles do severe damage in your body, because ionizing one of the atoms in DNA, an enzyme, an amino acid, a protein, a sugar, or another bioactive chemical will severely alter its reactivity.

So, to answer your question, Helium itself is a noble gas. Alpha particles are not helium atoms, but rather helium nuclei. Compounds with covalent or ionic bonds to helium have not yet been prepared, because elemental Helium is inert.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO8VDf_rCXo&feature=youtube_gdata_player



Rubidium standard:

Just thought this was interesting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubidium_standard

? 6 834 682 610.904 324 Hz


Jeff Nading

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #108, on August 30th, 2012, 08:43 PM »
I found this on the wiki, about helium, interesting to say the least, especially the underlined part. :cool:

Helium is the least reactive noble gas after neon and thus the second least reactive of all elements;[38] it is inert and monatomic in all standard conditions. Because of helium's relatively low molar (atomic) mass, its thermal conductivity, specific heat, and sound speed in the gas phase are all greater than any other gas except hydrogen. For similar reasons, and also due to the small size of helium atoms, helium's diffusion rate through solids is three times that of air and around 65% that of hydrogen.[5]
Helium is the least water soluble monatomic gas,[39] and one of the least water soluble of any gas (CF4, SF6, and C4F8 have lower mole fraction solubilities: 0.3802, 0.4394, and 0.2372 x2/10−5, respectively, versus helium's 0.70797 x2/10−5),[40] and helium's index of refraction is closer to unity than that of any other gas.[41] Helium has a negative Joule-Thomson coefficient at normal ambient temperatures, meaning it heats up when allowed to freely expand. Only below its Joule-Thomson inversion temperature (of about 32 to 50 K at 1 atmosphere) does it cool upon free expansion.[5] Once precooled below this temperature, helium can be liquefied through expansion cooling.
Most extraterrestrial helium is found in a plasma state, with properties quite different from those of atomic helium. In a plasma, helium's electrons are not bound to its nucleus, resulting in very high electrical conductivity, even when the gas is only partially ionized. The charged particles are highly influenced by magnetic and electric fields. For example, in the solar wind together with ionized hydrogen, the particles interact with the Earth's magnetosphere giving rise to Birkeland currents and the aurora.[42]

CuriousChris

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #109, on August 31st, 2012, 03:37 AM »
I just got to watch Bobs new video

First an apology. I am sorry Tinman you took the brunt of the unfair abuse from Bob. Its not your fault. If anyone should have been abused it was me.
Please accept my apologies for leaving you in that position.

Russ I am impressed with your workshop. but I am surprised while you proved that a magnetic field could effect aluminium in a dramatic fashion, you ruled out a coil as a possible source of energy. That does not make sense to me. Your coil is also a flat rodin coil. a rodin coil is a toroidal coil. that means the majority of the flux is actually inside the toroid, being flat changes the field shape and may even push the field outside the coil. not really sure. being an open weave coil I don't imagine its very efficient. but that's not the point. the field itself is not focused in the core like a solenoid. Please apply the right hand rule from your basic electrical theory.

The point is even though you used a very inefficient design (for the purpose) you actually got an impressive result. Therefore I don't see how you can claim a conclusive result from a very inconclusive test.

Again I ask. Where does the energy come from. please read my second post again. the energy must come from somewhere. I know most people want it to magically appear out of nowhere, but nothing in science has ever pointed to a net positive gain of energy. So even if the rhoner machine works as described it cannot get more energy out than put in. As the only energy put in is the electrical energy then the device cannot produce a positive result. and a well built electric motor is a far better way to convert electrical energy into motive energy.




~Russ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #110, on August 31st, 2012, 04:21 AM »Last edited on August 31st, 2012, 04:23 AM by ~Russ/Rwg42985
Quote from CuriousChris on August 31st, 2012, 03:37 AM
I just got to watch Bobs new video

First an apology. I am sorry Tinman you took the brunt of the unfair abuse from Bob. Its not your fault. If anyone should have been abused it was me.
Please accept my apologies for leaving you in that position.
i agree, i am also sorry tinman, Chris, there was a lot of people doging on bob, its was more than one person, some of witch are not even here on this site. i mean i was the one that brought up the question in the first place about the edit... what a mess. my apology to all involved who got there feelings hurt.
Quote
Russ I am impressed with your workshop.
lol my mess... :)

that's the "inside lab" you should see the "out side lab" lol
Quote
but I am surprised while you proved that a magnetic field could effect aluminium in a dramatic fashion, you ruled out a coil as a possible source of energy. That does not make sense to me. Your coil is also a flat rodin coil. a rodin coil is a toroidal coil. that means the majority of the flux is actually inside the toroid, being flat changes the field shape and may even push the field outside the coil. not really sure. being an open weave coil I don't imagine its very efficient. but that's not the point. the field itself is not focused in the core like a solenoid. Please apply the right hand rule from your basic electrical theory.

The point is even though you used a very inefficient design (for the purpose) you actually got an impressive result. Therefore I don't see how you can claim a conclusive result from a very inconclusive test.
those tests were for my thoughts only. i had some questions and wanted to see what would happen. only way to find out was try it... and others wanted to see them so i posted it.

im not saying one can not make it work. you can see that it is possible to make magmatic induction move a piston. i never stated could not. however i did indeed state my thoughts on wes's thoughts that bobs device works on theses coils and magnetic induction... non sence. the energy needed it redicules and things get really really hot at those energy levels... again these are my conclusions.  you dont half to agree wit me. :)

i voiced my opinion that bob was not using magnetic induction.

Rodin coil or normal coil. dont matter to me for this simple test. my tests actually proved me wrong from what i originally thought, so if anything it made me think it could be done. lol
Quote
Again I ask. Where does the energy come from. please read my second post again. the energy must come from somewhere. I know most people want it to magically appear out of nowhere, but nothing in science has ever pointed to a net positive gain of energy. So even if the rhoner machine works as described it cannot get more energy out than put in. As the only energy put in is the electrical energy then the device cannot produce a positive result. and a well built electric motor is a far better way to convert electrical energy into motive energy.
most inventors have theory's of how there device works, but truth is, most inventors have know idea.  in this case, we have a working device, at this stage till others replicate it spend billions of dollars on research we will never know...

i will tell you this, we are using radioactive elements. now these are verry verry low levels. BUT. its still there. so if the system is 90% efficient then we get that 20% from radioactive elements then that explains it. lol i dont know. 110% :)

think about it, how dose a nuclear power plant get its own power to keep it self running? 24 hrs a day 7 days a week? wait what? is that not more out than in? self sustaining?  that's impossible where dose the energy come from?

so,again im not going to convince you of anything just pointing out some facts and my thoughts.

i dont think the energy comes from anywhere. all energy is free flowing and moving at all times. never being created nor destroyed.  we just need to find a way to intercept it use it while its " flowing" and off we go...

EX. wind, EX solar, EX nuclear. ECT

something that is radioactive is constantly giving off energy. if you know how to use it your good.

see this for example. :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_battery
Quote
"The terms atomic battery, nuclear battery, tritium battery and radioisotope generator are used to describe a device which uses energy from the decay of a radioactive isotope to generate electricity. Like nuclear reactors they generate electricity from atomic energy, but differ in that they do not use a chain reaction. Compared to other batteries they are very costly, but have extremely long life and high energy density, and so they are mainly used as power sources for equipment that must operate unattended for long periods of time, such as spacecraft, pacemakers, underwater systems and automated scientific stations in remote parts of the world."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator
Quote
"Life span
90Sr-powered Soviet RTGs in dilapidated and vandalized condition.

Most RTGs use 238Pu, which decays with a half-life of 87.7 years. RTGs using this material will therefore diminish in power output by 0.787% of their capacity per year. 23 years after production, such an RTG will have decreased in power by 16.6%, i.e. providing 83.4% of its initial output. Thus, with a starting capacity of 470 W, after 23 years it would have a capacity of 392 W. However, the bi-metallic thermocouples used to convert thermal energy into electrical energy degrade as well; at the beginning of 2001, the power generated by the Voyager RTGs had dropped to 315 W for Voyager 1 and to 319 W for Voyager 2. Therefore in early 2001, the RTGs were working at about 67% of their original capacity instead of the expected 83.4%[13].

This life span was of particular importance during the Galileo mission. Originally intended to launch in 1986, it was delayed by the Space Shuttle Challenger accident. Because of this unforeseen event, the probe had to sit in storage for 4 years before launching in 1989. Subsequently, its RTGs had decayed somewhat, necessitating replanning the power budget for the mission.[citation needed]"
23 years at 470W... then the because of the half life drops to 392 watts... and so on...  is the free energy??? no we are just using the energy coming off of this element and " getting in its way" using it for electricity...

dose this help? i dont know what else to say. lol

Have a good day ALL ~Russ

CuriousChris

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #111, on August 31st, 2012, 05:15 AM »
Sorry Russ I am very aware of nuclear energy. I actually came here as an aside, my current interest is LENR low energy nuclear reaction. Sadly its looking pretty unconvincing at the moment, but an Italian physicist Celani is doing some very good and honest work. I hope he can produce the goods. This is how I know of Micheal McKubre and why I am so disappointed in him.

Nuclear energy is a very powerful source of energy. Of those you have fission, fusion and decay. RTG's use decay, some radioactive isotopes slowly break down releasing their energy. If Bob is using either fission (rapid decay) or normal radioactive decay then he is killing himself and anyone who comes into contact with his device. As you know thorium's half life is 4.5 Billion years, so slow it can't power anything... (Thorium reactors are a very promising technology. something that should have been developed many years ago).

Current theory says fusing cannot happen at low temperatures (energy). of course LENR is all about that. but there is nothing in the Papp motor that points in that direction.

Did you take note in the remade video that Bob releases pressure in the chamber by letting the syringe 'back off' to achieve near atmospheric pressure. Take a careful note of the speed that happens at. Think about that and you will see that what I said about the syringe is in fact correct and your hypothesis that the small diameter of the needle would prevent the vacuum from sucking in the syringe when first inserted.

I am also sorry to see you have not received your kit. I would refrain from buying any noble gases until after you have the kit. Perhaps Bob could volunteer some gas?

~Russ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #112, on August 31st, 2012, 05:28 AM »Last edited on August 31st, 2012, 05:36 AM by ~Russ/Rwg42985
Quote from CuriousChris on August 31st, 2012, 05:15 AM
Sorry Russ I am very aware of nuclear energy. I actually came here as an aside, my current interest is LENR low energy nuclear reaction. Sadly its looking pretty unconvincing at the moment, but an Italian physicist Celani is doing some very good and honest work. I hope he can produce the goods. This is how I know of Micheal McKubre and why I am so disappointed in him.

Nuclear energy is a very powerful source of energy. Of those you have fission, fusion and decay. RTG's use decay, some radioactive isotopes slowly break down releasing their energy. If Bob is using either fission (rapid decay) or normal radioactive decay then he is killing himself and anyone who comes into contact with his device. As you know thorium's half life is 4.5 Billion years, so slow it can't power anything... (Thorium reactors are a very promising technology. something that should have been developed many years ago).

Current theory says fusing cannot happen at low temperatures (energy). of course LENR is all about that. but there is nothing in the Papp motor that points in that direction.

Did you take note in the remade video that Bob releases pressure in the chamber by letting the syringe 'back off' to achieve near atmospheric pressure. Take a careful note of the speed that happens at. Think about that and you will see that what I said about the syringe is in fact correct and your hypothesis that the small diameter of the needle would prevent the vacuum from sucking in the syringe when first inserted.

I am also sorry to see you have not received your kit. I would refrain from buying any noble gases until after you have the kit. Perhaps Bob could volunteer some gas?
.

I did not say that the vacuum would not pull the syringe in. I stated that it would take some time.  And did you see the rate at which it pushed it back out? That's what I was trying to tell you.

If you want to know what I'm doing please watch my update video I posted and read all the posts I have on this thread. Seems like we keep having miscommunication or something. I'm done trying to convince and or make a point as it seems like sometimes you're not open to my opinion.


Wait and see. Then we don't need to go back and forth.

Do the experiment prove me wrong. Until then sit back relax and wait until I come to my conclusions on my own test.

~Russ

FaradayEZ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #113, on August 31st, 2012, 11:16 AM »Last edited on August 31st, 2012, 11:34 AM by FaradayEZ

Wait and see. Then we don't need to go back and forth.

Do the experiment prove me wrong. Until then sit back relax and wait until I come to my conclusions on my own test.

~Russ

Hi Russ,

Hope you get that kit soon..grrrr :@

Some thoughts... If Bob was very precise in following the papp way of making the engine.... then can it not be that some things are extra..are not that important?
(papp was a person who build poohaa around it.. also said by the dr.dr. guys i thought)

I guess so... easiest way to find out.... if you would be able and welcome to play some with Bob's engine.

Maybe to try it with only helium gas
Maybe to try it without the alpha ray's ?

It's much easier working the way back with something that already proofed it works.

And that it does is clear to me from the start.  :angel:

Greetings,

Erik

(and no magnetic hocuspocus.. no room in the thing for it)


Another thing of concern is.. how can Bob be helped in regards to his investors? is there a lawyer in the room? ;)






Jeff Nading

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #114, on August 31st, 2012, 12:06 PM »Last edited on August 31st, 2012, 12:08 PM by Jeff Nading
Russ, what would you think about building a Papp engine from scratch. Use an old style A/C Eaton or York compressor from a junkyard, it's all aluminum - cylinder, piston and crankcase. It can be hermetically sealed, charged with noble gas using the Freon gauges you have, or needles. The best part of it is that the plasmatic energy can be converted to mechanical energy. The head can be replaced with the electrode setup for firing it off and the piston could use Teflon rings. It's all there, just has to be modified a little. :cool::D:P:

k c dias

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #115, on August 31st, 2012, 01:47 PM »Last edited on August 31st, 2012, 02:00 PM by k c dias
Quote from Jeff Nading on August 31st, 2012, 12:06 PM
Russ, what would you think about building a Papp engine from scratch. Use an old style A/C Eaton or York compressor from a junkyard, it's all aluminum - cylinder, piston and crankcase. It can be hermetically sealed, charged with noble gas using the Freon gauges you have, or needles. The best part of it is that the plasmatic energy can be converted to mechanical energy. The head can be replaced with the electrode setup for firing it off and the piston could use Teflon rings. It's all there, just has to be modified a little. :cool::D:P:
Jeff,

I like it! The compressor idea is one better than I am using. :)  I am starting with a B&S 5 hp horizontal shaft engine, bore 2-9/16", stroke 2-7/16".  The cylinder is also aluminum.  I am hoping I can get the crank seals working well enough to hold a vacuum.  Your compressor will have the proper seals for this!

Right or wrong, I plan on providing a small port (1/8" or so) to connect the crankcase to the cylinder when the piston is at BDC.  The port can be positioned to enter the cylinder just above the top sealing ring, ie. not a straight open shot to the plasma chamber.  Vacuum the whole thing down, and fill crankcase and all with the gas, allow the pressure to equalize at every BDC position, no worries about loosing or gaining pressure past the sealing rings to the air in the crankcase.

There will be an issue of oil contamination (with or without the port) what are your thoughts about using silicone oil?

kcd
Oh, i more thing, I (pretty much) have the controller in the bag. :D
I'm using (multiple) Microchip PIC's.

kcd

PS
Dose "code" and "/code" work for this site??

FaradayEZ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #116, on August 31st, 2012, 02:08 PM »
Quote from Jeff Nading on August 31st, 2012, 12:06 PM
Russ, what would you think about building a Papp engine from scratch. Use an old style A/C Eaton or York compressor from a junkyard, it's all aluminum - cylinder, piston and crankcase. It can be hermetically sealed, charged with noble gas using the Freon gauges you have, or needles. The best part of it is that the plasmatic energy can be converted to mechanical energy. The head can be replaced with the electrode setup for firing it off and the piston could use Teflon rings. It's all there, just has to be modified a little. :cool::D:P:
Hear hear..sounds like a plan!

And Jeff will probably sell ye this old beauty for only an arm and a leg ;)

But staying safe like Bob is using heavier metals... and you don't need to seal the inlet and outlet when using a pipe and a piston. Just shoot it through the roof.. if it works it is certainly worth that party!!
Checking the principle is enough to get more people started. The simpler, the better.

And if ye say why don't you do it..you're right.. i should be finding a workspot etc. to check these things out myself. It's that i recently checked a lot of utube and through you found this forum and already saw the papp stuff b4 and was convinced about it.
What scare's me is the electronics, following courses on MIT and utube i still think its a new and complicated world to me.

So i'm the turtle cheering on the hare?

Keep on trucking...

Erik






k c dias

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #117, on August 31st, 2012, 02:41 PM »Last edited on August 31st, 2012, 02:48 PM by k c dias
Some more notable design criteria from John P. Rohner’s Patent Application Publication US 2011-0113772 A1, published 19 May 2011, patent pending at the time of this post (31 Aug 2012) Of course, the complete application should be read for a more thorough explanation. - kcd  


The cylinder is constructed of a non-ferrous material.

The cylinder head and piston are constructed of a Ferro-magnetic material.

At TDC, the cylinder head and the head of the piston form a toroidal transition chamber.

The toroidal transition chamber is provided with a mirrored finish to increase the efficiency.

Around each cylinder are three coils; the supplemental coil, the cylinder coil, and the transition coil. In the preferred embodiment, only the cylinder coil and transition coil are used.

The supplemental coil is most preferably 220 turns (in the range of 100 to 500 turns), of 20 gauge wire and is approximately 20 centimeters long.

The cylinder coil is most preferably 600 turns (in the range of 200 to 900 turns) of 18 gauge wire and is approximately 15.0 centimeters long.

The transition coil is most preferably 80 turns (in the range of 50 to 100 turns) of 18 gauge wire and is approximately 4.5 centimeters long.

At TDC, the cylinder coil is located completely below the head of the piston and the transition coil completely surrounds the transition chamber.

The cylinder coil acts as a magnetic field generator on the interior of the cylinder.

The transition coil also acts as a magnetic field generator on the interior of the cylinder, but is primarily focused to generate a predetermined magnetic field within the expansion chamber when the piston is near TDC.

(Again, in the preferred embodiment, only the cylinder coil and transition coil are used.)

A ionization generator, such as a radio frequency generator coupled to a high frequency antenna is provided to act on the gas within the transition chamber.

The antenna is preferably constructed of 18 gauge wire most preferably 8.1 centimeters (in the range of 5.0 and 10.0 centimeters) in length wrapped 60% around the transition chamber at mid point within the toroidial structure.

[Note: The cylinder bore is not cited in the specification of the application.  But given the antenna description above, the bore is on the order of 3.4 in. diameter. – I could be wrong. - kcd]

An initiator system is a high voltage coil or multiple coils such as "coil on plug" spark coils, such as those known in the art, provided with a 55 KV output sufficient to generate a arc of 140 KV and long enough duration to induce transition of the ionized gas mixture within the transition chamber.

[Note: These look like Ford (2 wire) ‘coil on plug’ coils (2005 Ford escape, 3.0 liter engine) (Duralast #1458) – I could be wrong. - kcd]

An initiator system, such as four high voltage coils and an arc return element are secured to the cylinder head  The arc return element, which is a 0.6 centimeter diameter copper screw, also extends through the cylinder head into the expansion chamber. An alternate to this is to use an aluminum post with a small pod at the end within which would be strontium or a similar accelerant.

Provided on the cylinder head is a refueling port.

Also on the cylinder head is a system sensor. The sensor is an insulated length of 18 gauge copper wire that protrudes 2 mm into the transition chamber.

A sensor, such as those known in the art, is coupled to the crankshaft to indicate the position of the piston relative to the TDC position.

In this embodiment the 8-bit microprocessor can control 24 lines.

[Note: I believe that this particular processor described in the application is a Silicon Labs C8051F541 – I could be wrong. - kcd]

The battery is preferably between 9-38 VDC.

The first converter converts voltage from the battery to 12, 24, 36 or 48 VDC.

The second converter is digital programmed variable, configured to convert voltage from the battery to 6 to 48 VDC as desired to control the speed voltage used by the engine electromagnetic coils for operation of the variable speed of the motor and to accommodate various fuel mixtures wherein.

The radio frequency generator is coupled to the ECS, allowing the ECS to be programmed to generate various radio frequencies for use as speed changes and to accommodate various designs of the motor, fuel mixtures.

The second selector/buffer and ECS are coupled to a high voltage controller, which in turn is coupled to the four high voltage coils.  The ECS also controls the power and frequency of the RF signal generated by the radio frequency generator to accommodate motor design, desired speed and fuel mixture requirements.

When it is desired to operate the motor, the expansion chamber is evacuated and the ECS is programmed using the debug/program interface to operate as follows: The ECS actuates the valve to dose the expansion chamber with fuel until the pressure within the expansion chamber is approximately one atmosphere.

The fuel may be any desired combination of the noble gases: helium (He), neon (Ne), argon (Ar), krypton (Kr), xenon (Xe), and radon (Rn).

One fuel mixture known in the art is a combination by volume of
35.6% helium,
26.2% neon,
16.9% argon,
12.7% krypton
8.5% xenon.

While radon may be used, it is inherently unstable and may cause an undesirably large release of energy. Similarly, hydrogen may be used in the mixture if it is desired to speed up the reaction or generate additional power as may be the case with larger displacement engines.

The ECS begins the excitation cycle by supplying the variable or "speed" voltage to the supplemental, cylinder and transition coils creating an electro magnetic field, so that the north pole of the electro magnet over the cylinder is on the same end as the high voltage electrodes.

The change in voltage to these coils "squeezes" the fuel within the cylinder, compressing the fuel mixture within the cylinder to the center and presetting the ionic form of the lighter gases. By varying the voltage supplied to the coils the ECS controls the speed at which the motor operates.

As the piston reaches ~5 degrees from TDC, the ECS actuates the four high voltage coils, initiating a simple high voltage, 100 KV, arc within the expansion chamber.

At the same time, the ECS initiates the addition of 2.05 to 47.12 MHz radio frequency (RF) energy into the expansion chamber by providing the radio frequency generator with 12 volts at 8.2 amps (~ 100 W) to introduce RF energy into the expansion chamber via the high frequency antenna.

As the piston reaches ~45 degrees past TDC, the ECS increases or decreases the voltage applied to the (cylinder coil?) as desired to either speed up or slow down the reaction within the cylinder.

Note: this does not agree well with information posted on pesn dot com:

“At about 155 degrees after TDC, before the piston reaches bottom dead center, the containment coil(s) voltage is reset back to the resting voltage state. This is done to release the linear pressure internally within the Cylinder and allow the plasma state, which is nearly done expanding, time to finish. The majority of the power transfer is already done.”

The specific expansion coefficient is a variant of the gas mixture. Expansion for the fuel mixture listed above is about five times its original volume.

For example, if the plasma was to touch the interior of the cylinder, it would lose the ongoing ability to expand and would immediately retract, so the buffering is important.

As soon as the sensor indicates to the ECS that ignition has occurred, the ECS disables voltage to the four high voltage coils as the transformation to a plasma has started.

[Note: The ignition coils have a power-on-dwell (or charge) time. I currently use 3.5 milliseconds (I have observed current saturation in the primary winding after 4.0 ms) The coils ‘fire’ once the power is removed from the primary, and continue to ‘fire’ as long as the voltage in the primary continues to oscillate (L-C tank) until the secondary voltage drops to the point it can no longer jump the gap.  If we allow 4.5ms before reapplying another 3.5ms recharge, (8ms total), then, at 1000 RPM, the next firing would be occurring 48 degrees of rotation later (or 43 Deg after TDC) A second firing is futile.. – I could be wrong. - kcd]

When power has decreased by 50%, the ECS disables voltage to the radio frequency generator. The power and wavelength of the RF energy within the transition chamber also dictates the speed of operation of the motor.

At or about BDC, the ECS removes the speed voltage from the (transition coil?) and places a recharge voltage on the three coils, if needed, for collapse.

Note: this does not agree well with information posted on pesn dot com:

“At about 17 degrees after TDC the ionization voltage provided to the reaction chamber electromagnetic coil is reduced to the resting state voltage as it is no longer needed either. The plasmic transition will continue for an instant more in the PlasmERG motor. In the Papp there may not be an equivalent. The [original] Papp chamber magnetics are very complex and difficult to simplify for explanation. In that motor several coils are switched in order to maintain a control element overall.”

If, at any point the ECS detects a decrease in energy output of the motor, the ECS triggers the valve to provide additional fuel into the expansion chamber through the refueling port.

As the RF frequency goes up, the power required to excite the fuel goes down.

I hope this info helps if there is anyone else out there cutting metal or writing code on this project. - kcd

Jeff Nading

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #118, on August 31st, 2012, 03:03 PM »
Quote from k c dias on August 31st, 2012, 01:47 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on August 31st, 2012, 12:06 PM
Russ, what would you think about building a Papp engine from scratch. Use an old style A/C Eaton or York compressor from a junkyard, it's all aluminum - cylinder, piston and crankcase. It can be hermetically sealed, charged with noble gas using the Freon gauges you have, or needles. The best part of it is that the plasmatic energy can be converted to mechanical energy. The head can be replaced with the electrode setup for firing it off and the piston could use Teflon rings. It's all there, just has to be modified a little. :cool::D:P:
Jeff,

I like it! The compressor idea is one better than I am using. :)  I am starting with a B&S 5 hp horizontal shaft engine, bore 2-9/16", stroke 2-7/16".  The cylinder is also aluminum.  I am hoping I can get the crank seals working well enough to hold a vacuum.  Your compressor will have the proper seals for this!

Right or wrong, I plan on providing a small port (1/8" or so) to connect the crankcase to the cylinder when the piston is at BDC.  The port can be positioned to enter the cylinder just above the top sealing ring, ie. not a straight open shot to the plasma chamber.  Vacuum the whole thing down, and fill crankcase and all with the gas, allow the pressure to equalize at every BDC position, no worries about loosing or gaining pressure past the sealing rings to the air in the crankcase.

There will be an issue of oil contamination (with or without the port) what are your thoughts about using silicone oil?

kcd

Oh, i more thing, I (pretty much) have the controller in the bag. :D
I'm using (multiple) Microchip PIC's.

kcd

PS
Dose "code" and "/code" work for this site??
Hi Kc, I think your idea will work as well, I was just thinking like you said the compressor already has the seals needed. The valve plate [reed valves] can be removed easily, so most of it is already built. I don't know about the oil yet, silicone might work or some synthetic, don't know if it would have a reaction or not, need to research that. The plasmatic reaction should only be in the cylinder though, not much heat so the silicone could work. The compressor would need a small flywheel or could even be a generator to bring the piston back up after firing, so to me, it would be a two stroke engine, fire and compression.  :cool::D
RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #119, on August 31st, 2012, 03:14 PM »
Quote from FaradayEZ on August 31st, 2012, 02:08 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on August 31st, 2012, 12:06 PM
Russ, what would you think about building a Papp engine from scratch. Use an old style A/C Eaton or York compressor from a junkyard, it's all aluminum - cylinder, piston and crankcase. It can be hermetically sealed, charged with noble gas using the Freon gauges you have, or needles. The best part of it is that the plasmatic energy can be converted to mechanical energy. The head can be replaced with the electrode setup for firing it off and the piston could use Teflon rings. It's all there, just has to be modified a little. :cool::D:P:
Hear hear..sounds like a plan!

And Jeff will probably sell ye this old beauty for only an arm and a leg ;)

But staying safe like Bob is using heavier metals... and you don't need to seal the inlet and outlet when using a pipe and a piston. Just shoot it through the roof.. if it works it is certainly worth that party!!
Checking the principle is enough to get more people started. The simpler, the better.

And if ye say why don't you do it..you're right.. i should be finding a workspot etc. to check these things out myself. It's that i recently checked a lot of utube and through you found this forum and already saw the papp stuff b4 and was convinced about it.
What scare's me is the electronics, following courses on MIT and utube i still think its a new and complicated world to me.

So i'm the turtle cheering on the hare?

Keep on trucking...

Erik
Hi Erik, I going to keep the a/c compressor I have and try it when I have the time. I have soooooo many projects going and sooooo many things I still want to do, a life time is not enough time. Keep up the research, this helps everyone, thanks Jeff.:D

FaradayEZ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #120, on August 31st, 2012, 03:35 PM »Last edited on September 1st, 2012, 04:58 AM by FaradayEZ
Thanks kcd,

Some note's on keeping it simple.. <<>>

The cylinder is constructed of a non-ferrous material.

<< witch one would do if you want influence from the magnetic fields surrounding it... but the coil is not needed in Rob's example's..>>

The cylinder head and piston are constructed of a Ferro-magnetic material.

At TDC, the cylinder head and the head of the piston form a toroidal transition chamber.

<< so vortex like directing the plasma expension... ok but also something for later?>>

The toroidal transition chamber is provided with a mirrored finish to increase the efficiency.

<< as so for now we cann do away with a lot of the coils..
Around each cylinder are three coils; the supplemental coil, the cylinder coil, and the transition coil. In the preferred embodiment, only the cylinder coil and transition coil are used. The supplemental coil is most preferably 220 turns (in the range of 100 to 500 turns), of 20 gauge wire and is approximately 20 centimeters long. The cylinder coil is most preferably 600 turns (in the range of 200 to 900 turns) of 18 gauge wire and is approximately 15.0 centimeters long.
The transition coil is most preferably 80 turns (in the range of 50 to 100 turns) of 18 gauge wire and is approximately 4.5 centimeters long. At TDC, the cylinder coil is located completely below the head of the piston and the transition coil completely surrounds the transition chamber. The cylinder coil acts as a magnetic field generator on the interior of the cylinder. The transition coil also acts as a magnetic field generator on the interior of the cylinder, but is primarily focused to generate a predetermined magnetic field within the expansion chamber when the piston is near TDC. (Again, in the preferred embodiment, only the cylinder coil and transition coil are used.) ....end of the coils..>>>

A ionization generator, such as a radio frequency generator coupled to a high frequency antenna is provided to act on the gas within the transition chamber.

<< Ok, alpha particles or RF exitement may be needed in some form.. maybe using a resonance frequency of the gas? >>


<>

The fuel may be any desired combination of the noble gases: helium (He), neon (Ne), argon (Ar), krypton (Kr), xenon (Xe), and radon (Rn).

<<So as long as they are noble...so again keeping it simple..try the 93% helium from the partyshop?? (would love it if Rob could tell us if he ever tried other cheaper gas)>>

Only when its becoming a real engine then the timing etc. and the rest of the info comes into play

Greetings..

Erik, Holland

xxzeropiontxx

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #121, on August 31st, 2012, 04:41 PM »
Quote from FaradayEZ on August 31st, 2012, 03:35 PM
Thanks kcd,

Some note's on keeping it simple.. <<>>

The cylinder is constructed of a non-ferrous material.

<< witch one would do if you want influence from the magnetic fields surrounding it... but the coil is not needed in Rob's example's..>>

The cylinder head and piston are constructed of a Ferro-magnetic material.

At TDC, the cylinder head and the head of the piston form a toroidal transition chamber.

<< so vortex like directing the plasma expension... ok but also something for later?>>

The toroidal transition chamber is provided with a mirrored finish to increase the efficiency.

<< as so for now we cann do away with a lot of the coils..
Around each cylinder are three coils; the supplemental coil, the cylinder coil, and the transition coil. In the preferred embodiment, only the cylinder coil and transition coil are used. The supplemental coil is most preferably 220 turns (in the range of 100 to 500 turns), of 20 gauge wire and is approximately 20 centimeters long. The cylinder coil is most preferably 600 turns (in the range of 200 to 900 turns) of 18 gauge wire and is approximately 15.0 centimeters long.
The transition coil is most preferably 80 turns (in the range of 50 to 100 turns) of 18 gauge wire and is approximately 4.5 centimeters long. At TDC, the cylinder coil is located completely below the head of the piston and the transition coil completely surrounds the transition chamber. The cylinder coil acts as a magnetic field generator on the interior of the cylinder. The transition coil also acts as a magnetic field generator on the interior of the cylinder, but is primarily focused to generate a predetermined magnetic field within the expansion chamber when the piston is near TDC. (Again, in the preferred embodiment, only the cylinder coil and transition coil are used.) ....end of the coils..>>>

A ionization generator, such as a radio frequency generator coupled to a high frequency antenna is provided to act on the gas within the transition chamber.

<< Ok, alpha particles or RF exitement may be needed in some form.. maybe using a resonance frequency of the gas? >>


<>

The fuel may be any desired combination of the noble gases: helium (He), neon (Ne), argon (Ar), krypton (Kr), xenon (Xe), and radon (Rn).

<>

Only when its becoming a real engine then the timing etc. and the rest of the info comes into play

Greetings..

Erik, Holland
i talked to the man that brings our gas for our welding he told me that  ( he.)  is getting real hard to get  there is a short supply    

Jeff Nading

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #122, on August 31st, 2012, 08:23 PM »
Quote from Jeff Nading on August 31st, 2012, 12:06 PM
Russ, what would you think about building a Papp engine from scratch. Use an old style A/C Eaton or York compressor from a junkyard, it's all aluminum - cylinder, piston and crankcase. It can be hermetically sealed, charged with noble gas using the Freon gauges you have, or needles. The best part of it is that the plasmatic energy can be converted to mechanical energy. The head can be replaced with the electrode setup for firing it off and the piston could use Teflon rings. It's all there, just has to be modified a little. :cool::D:P:
Well guy's I found out this a/c compressor has two pistons not one.:(

FaradayEZ

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #123, on September 1st, 2012, 04:35 AM »Last edited on September 1st, 2012, 05:02 AM by FaradayEZ
Well guy's I found out this a/c compressor has two pistons not one.:(
~~

Ok Jeff, that makes it more complicated, but

As i think on, on the test we should see/do... i think we don't need perfect pistons or high resistance vacuum or teflon rings.

Rob uses atmospheric pressure!

(and they used some acryllic ? tube in older video's to see the flash)

So i think the difficulty is....how do you exite a noble gas into the state that an arc wil give the expansion? (and not using heat) Solving this is proving the Papp engine's concept. (if we get the poweroutput also)

Building an engine then is using already known technology

Also in being complete on the case, we need to calculate on the Rob piston test video... we assume that there is more output then input.. but that side also needs to be stated and seen and calculated.

Greetingss..

Erik

Proof the concept first... and focus on the real problems

Jeff Nading

RE: Let's build A "Popper" Noble Gas Engine AKA Ppap Engine.
« Reply #124, on September 1st, 2012, 05:41 AM »Last edited on September 1st, 2012, 05:42 AM by Jeff Nading
I came up with another idea, instead of using an A/C compressor we could use an air compressor, some have one 3" aluminum piston, aluminum cylinder and crankcase, just need to make sure it doesn't have a steel sleeve and both ends of the crank are supported with bearings.:D