Very cool Art, thank you Jeff.:cool::D

Hello again Zerwell

Oops sorry about that Chuck! I’m laughing about my misunderstanding and I hope you can also? :D

I thought you meant you were one of the licensees for Inteligentry. :blush:

Keep up the good work it is much appreciated.

element 119

Quote from k c dias on September 13th, 2012, 12:24 PM

The more I think about this plasmerg-supposed-to be-public-domain-but-is not-popper-kit, the more I get pissed off!!

I may be building a John type engine, but as of now, I'm joining the Bob team!

A note to Mr Bob Rohner:  You may already have a controller for your 2 cylinder engine, or maybe it still needs to be made.  Either way, I have a controller, of my own design, that is fully adaptable for 1, 2, 4 cylinders, a separate MPU for each subsystem (makes programming much more straight forward) that may suit your needs.  I will post the schematic and code here for everyone to use and modify to suit their own needs.

kcd

-/* KC - It sounds like you have a good start on building a controller. While that may work great, I think a better approach may be done by defining common pieces that everyone can buy openly. For example, a Raspberry PI is cheap and has a lot of free support. The group could develop plug in m0dules, such as spark and hall sensors to plug this. That would save everyone from building and testing their own controller. What processor are you using?  

k c dias, nice work man!!!

chuck, All,
 
FYI, when we sent money to get the "popper kit" we did not sighn an agreement, when we (chuck)  revived a kit we did not sighn an agreement,

but (from what i understand) the kit is " coppy right" so there for its was a shafty move on inteligentry side. "everything here is in the public domain" ha...

Please do not making a big deal about this here on the form, this forum is for researchers to gather and help one another. please keep nasty comments about john/inteligentry to a minim. this is not the place to post those comments.

those who are building a "Popper kit" please keep posting as if it works... then cool. lets see it and post what you can...!


~Russ

Quote from meccanojoe on September 13th, 2012, 01:21 PM

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on September 13th, 2012, 03:45 AM

Chuck only has a popper kit. Under the agreement of the information that you receive from the kit you're not allowed to share it as it's semi disclose for use of purchaser only..

Chuck is doing a wonderful job and he is trying to open source the information. Unfortunately that's not going to happen.  i stated this in the video.  you'll see right now,


Please see my latest update video. Here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Efw9SJzlhOw

I need everyone to go here and make a vote:

please answer the poll here:
http://rwgresearch.com/open-projects/the-papp-noble-gas-engine/


Also got the test replica done. And, the piston! This turned out surprisingly well and I'm extremely happy with it here are some photos this is not yet in the video I just got done with that...

Hello ,
           just watched your video thanks for posting update . About putting epoxy on glass view port , I would not recommend this as I suspect you will get outgassing and contamination when you go to vacuum out cylinder .. (if you put epoxy inside cylinder)

                                                             Joe.

                                                                                       Joe.

russ you got this stay with bob it will cost less money and less headaches  just my op.

got the buckets done:

use 1/8" pipe to 1/4" tube fittings, cut off the 1/4 tube side, driled and taped the brass to except the 1/4" rod, then the buckets will " seal" as the AL is taperd pipe thread...

cool. works really well!

[attachment=2217]

thx

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on September 14th, 2012, 04:36 AM

got the buckets done:

use 1/8" pipe to 1/4" tube fittings, cut off the 1/4 tube side, driled and taped the brass to except the 1/4" rod, then the buckets will " seal" as the AL is taperd pipe thread...

cool. works really well!

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nice going Russ!!
I see you also have a gas mixture, and you have a frequency for the RF (what i was searching for...) Hoping it does the job.

(if you would use them) Do the alpha rays go through the metal of the buckets?

And how well is your compression/vacuum on the piston and cylinder? Should ye do a duration test first?
Like placing the piston up and put a weight on top and in the morning measure if it has dropped somewhat?


(Hmm now i go ahead of.."first get the first pop done.." 100% seal is for the engine, not for the test)

Quote from FaradayEZ on September 14th, 2012, 05:35 AM

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on September 14th, 2012, 04:36 AM

got the buckets done:

use 1/8" pipe to 1/4" tube fittings, cut off the 1/4 tube side, driled and taped the brass to except the 1/4" rod, then the buckets will " seal" as the AL is taperd pipe thread...

cool. works really well!

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nice going Russ!!
I see you also have a gas mixture, and you have a frequency for the RF (what i was searching for...) Hoping it does the job.

(if you would use them) Do the alpha rays go through the metal of the buckets?

And how well is your compression/vacuum on the piston and cylinder? Should ye do a duration test first?
Like placing the piston up and put a weight on top and in the morning measure if it has dropped somewhat?


(Hmm now i go ahead of.."first get the first pop done.." 100% seal is for the engine, not for the test)

The rubidium will react with the aluminum to the point where it probably will react a little bit. Alpha radiation is the type from thorium and rubidium , it probably will not make it through the bucket but it still there for a "purpose that is not really known"...  stated from Bob
Ah yes,

Update 7 video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6w1m1S2DftI

As far as pressure / vac test...

10 hrs it dropped from -28 to about -26 so on the vac side of things... Its good! And really the gas is more prone to externail gas gettin in... So a pressure test is not really nessacery.

A new seal may help and the bottom glass port is cracked... May be where the leek is...

Also the fittings holding the eletrods and such are not over tight... I can still Move the eletrods even while it's tight... So all in all I'm happy with it!!!


Thx ~Russ

As far as pressure / vac test...

10 hrs it dropped from -28 to about -26 so on the vac side of things... Its good! And really the gas is more prone to externail gas gettin in... So a pressure test is not really nessacery.

A new seal may help and the bottom glass port is cracked... May be where the leek is...

Also the fittings holding the eletrods and such are not over tight... I can still Move the eletrods even while it's tight... So all in all I'm happy with it!!!


Thx ~Russ

~~~~~~~~

Yes, i think so too, it looks good enough to do the job.

(and maybe some form of resin (not hardening) can be used to seal the spaces between the plastics and the metal? electrodes )

One thing that is of importance now i think.

Papp was afraid of outside contamination.. that means that it won't work if the amount of outside i.e. normal air or vapors from other sources become a certain percentage.

So if i was doing a first test (with some people alongside?) i would try to make damned sure that there is little to none normal air left.

You have a relatively big chamber. If you pump the air out...how many air is then still left in? There must be some spreadsheets on the net on that.

So maybe i would give it, after vacuuming, a short puff of mixture and then vacuum it again, so some normal air remains will be extra drown out.


And also, if you don't get a pop the first time.. you have to know what things are to relay on (like the gas being ok) and what things you can (need to) vary.

Anyhow..exiting times Russ!!

Russ,

SWEET JOB on the Bopper!!!! (that's a Bob Popper)

kcd

Quote from k c dias on September 14th, 2012, 01:15 PM

Russ,

SWEET JOB on the Bopper!!!! (that's a Bob Popper)

kcd

Lol yes I was going to make a new name like a bobopper! Lol

Yes bob-opper lol

Respect! ;)

~Russ

Quote from BobN on September 13th, 2012, 05:23 PM

-/* KC - It sounds like you have a good start on building a controller. While that may work great, I think a better approach may be done by defining common pieces that everyone can buy openly. For example, a Raspberry PI is cheap and has a lot of free support. The group could develop plug in m0dules, such as spark and hall sensors to plug this. That would save everyone from building and testing their own controller. What processor are you using?

BobN,

I just looked up what a Raspberry PI is.  Sounds very cool, but not one that I have programmed B4, and I'm not sure I am ready to learn new tricks.

I am using a Microchip PIC12F683 - a small 8 pin microcontroller, (MCU) or actually I should say I am using several of them.  These chips are less than $2 each and program in a $50 or so PICKIT kit using a USB port.  My one cylinder controller uses 5 of these chips, may need 6, don't know yet until I get my cylinder coils wound this weekend.  

Anyway, here is the layout.  

The first chip is simply configured as a comparator, ins and outs available on external pins - this one captures the one-per-rev pulse from the magnetic flywheel sensor.

The second chip takes the signal from the first chip, runs a timer to time the interval between pulses, and sends out a 'cly0' pulse that is 135 deg before TDC, a 135 degree advance notice if you will.  It also takes in a 0 to 5v analog signal from a throttle position sensor (TPS), and outputs an analog voltage (PWM out with R/C filter) that is the difference between the TPS value and the calculated speed of the engine (speed demand signal).  2.5V is a speed match, above 2.5V is a speed up signal, and below means slow down.  There is also an output to an LED to indicate that the cranking speed is sufficient (too slow overflows a register), and also a Ignition on/Reset switch input.

If someone is interested in running 2, or 4 cylinders (1 or 3 more output pins needed), then the same program (with very minor modifications) can be put in a PIC16F688 (14 pin) or a PIC16F690 (20 pin) MCU.

The third chip takes the 'cly0' input and fires four HV spark coils simultaneously.  It factors in a charge time, or dead time, for the coils, and has a speed dependent look up table for a user defined spark advance  curve.

The forth chip takes the 'cly0' input and the speed demand signal.  It too can factor in a dead time, if it is needed, and has two speed dependent look up tables for a user defined advance and pulse duration.  It also puts out a 0 to 5v analog signal (filtered PWM, calculated from the speed and the speed demand signal) to ultimately control the RF frequency, or VCO.

The 5th and/or 5th and 6th chip(s) will do much the same as the forth chip above, except control the advance, duration and voltage for the cylinder coils.

Most of this work is done, or at least in my head to do.  I will provide the schematic, and the .asm and .hex files for programming the chips.

My reasoning for using separate MCU's is to make the separate subsections truly separate - there are no intertwined programming gotchas where one change unintentionally affects three other things.  It is also well commented so others can understand, make there own changes to the timing, etc. and quickly explore what are the best parameters for running this thing as an engine.

Buy the programmer, the chips, assemble a small board and go!

kcd

Quote from k c dias on September 14th, 2012, 02:33 PM

Quote from BobN on September 13th, 2012, 05:23 PM

-/* KC - It sounds like you have a good start on building a controller. While that may work great, I think a better approach may be done by defining common pieces that everyone can buy openly. For example, a Raspberry PI is cheap and has a lot of free support. The group could develop plug in m0dules, such as spark and hall sensors to plug this. That would save everyone from building and testing their own controller. What processor are you using?

BobN,

I just looked up what a Raspberry PI is.  Sounds very cool, but not one that I have programmed B4, and I'm not sure I am ready to learn new tricks.

I am using a Microchip PIC12F683 - a small 8 pin microcontroller, (MCU) or actually I should say I am using several of them.  These chips are less than $2 each and program in a $50 or so PICKIT kit using a USB port.  My one cylinder controller uses 5 of these chips, may need 6, don't know yet until I get my cylinder coils wound this weekend.  

Anyway, here is the layout.  

The first chip is simply configured as a comparator, ins and outs available on external pins - this one captures the one-per-rev pulse from the magnetic flywheel sensor.

The second chip takes the signal from the first chip, runs a timer to time the interval between pulses, and sends out a 'cly0' pulse that is 135 deg before TDC, a 135 degree advance notice if you will.  It also takes in a 0 to 5v analog signal from a throttle position sensor (TPS), and outputs an analog voltage (PWM out with R/C filter) that is the difference between the TPS value and the calculated speed of the engine (speed demand signal).  2.5V is a speed match, above 2.5V is a speed up signal, and below means slow down.  There is also an output to an LED to indicate that the cranking speed is sufficient (too slow overflows a register), and also a Ignition on/Reset switch input.

If someone is interested in running 2, or 4 cylinders (1 or 3 more output pins needed), then the same program (with very minor modifications) can be put in a PIC16F688 (14 pin) or a PIC16F690 (20 pin) MCU.

The third chip takes the 'cly0' input and fires four HV spark coils simultaneously.  It factors in a charge time, or dead time, for the coils, and has a speed dependent look up table for a user defined spark advance  curve.

The forth chip takes the 'cly0' input and the speed demand signal.  It too can factor in a dead time, if it is needed, and has two speed dependent look up tables for a user defined advance and pulse duration.  It also puts out a 0 to 5v analog signal (filtered PWM, calculated from the speed and the speed demand signal) to ultimately control the RF frequency, or VCO.

The 5th and/or 5th and 6th chip(s) will do much the same as the forth chip above, except control the advance, duration and voltage for the cylinder coils.

Most of this work is done, or at least in my head to do.  I will provide the schematic, and the .asm and .hex files for programming the chips.

My reasoning for using separate MCU's is to make the separate subsections truly separate - there are no intertwined programming gotchas where one change unintentionally affects three other things.  It is also well commented so others can understand, make there own changes to the timing, etc. and quickly explore what are the best parameters for running this thing as an engine.

Buy the programmer, the chips, assemble a small board and go!

kcd

Kcd
Good stuff!

Do you have the gas or plan on ordering some?

Thx!

Russ are you planning on going “ live “ with your first testing of the Popper? If so please update count down. :P

I think there may be a lot of us that want to see the first pop or attempt at a pop.

Hats off to you so far! You have done a really great job of building the stuff.

Looking forward to the pop testing. :D

element 119

Quote from element 119 on September 14th, 2012, 06:19 PM

Russ are you planning on going “ live “ with your first testing of the Popper? If so please update count down. :P

I think there may be a lot of us that want to see the first pop or attempt at a pop.

Hats off to you so far! You have done a really great job of building the stuff.

Looking forward to the pop testing. :D

element 119

I have been having Internet problems. So of they get out there and fix it I will let you know, won't know anything for a bit...

Keep you posted!

Thx ~Russ

Quote from k c dias on September 12th, 2012, 01:19 PM

This is a very interesting read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashtube

Was curious if there were any statements about an increase in pressure during operation.  And well.......

"A major factor affecting efficiency is the amount of gas behind the electrodes, or the "dead volume". A higher dead volume leads to a lower pressure increase during operation."

"Flashtubes operate at high pressures and are known to explode, producing violent shockwaves."

If this has been known about xenon flash tubes, WHY can't folks (Dr. Feynman, et al) wrap they little heads around the Papp engine??  Poo!!!

kcd

I have been trying to stay quiet but the "little heads" faux pax needs attending to.
 
Of course Feynman knew. Why do you think he pulled the plug.

If you have a gas/plasma in a contained area that is rapidly heated. What do you think is going to happen? Add to that too much energy, a poorly designed glass envelope or any number of 'failure modes' and you get a firecracker.

The important thing to note is the energy expended by that shockwave is less than the electrical energy input into the flashtube. The rest being expended as heat and electromagnetic waves (light).

In other words don't mistake an exploding flashtube for some sort of overunity device.

I am bemused by the following comment from zerwell "the kit is worth a lot more than the $350...just in intelectual property alone"
I hope that he is not talking about how to get a spark plug to fire. That IP has been common knowledge for rather a long time.

'CuriousChris'

I have been trying to stay quiet but the "little heads" faux pax needs attending to.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Big headed Cris,

You think we here like people who put others down as little heads?

Troublemakers should stay quiet and trol somewhere else

Eazy and chris, all,

Let's move on.

Don't want to give any a bad mark on these forums.

Play nice, move forwerd,

" dont have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all", I don't want to start removing posts. Havent ever so far, but I will start to keep things positive...
 
Manny blessings and read the forum rules if you have problems with theses thoughts,

~Russ

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985'

Right ye are,

And if making free energy is sometimes difficult then look at a Geet engine
to see that 100% is possible already.

[url

http://youtu.be/dW0moXn9y9U[/url]

even police... http://youtu.be/MUgUF5M3FTI   (well..HHO)

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on September 14th, 2012, 05:13 PM

Do you have the gas or plan on ordering some?

Thx!

Well...  I started drafting a letter to the Vatican explaining what I needed and why, while all along apologizing for my request.  Then I realized, the gas I need is spelled P a p p!!

I'm glad I caught my mistake in time and saved myself the embarrassment of actually sending that letter!!  What was I thinking!!:-/

I do have argon.  I recently scrounged some helium (the real stuff, not balloon grade) and I have an old tank of neon that may or may not have leaked out in the past ten years.  I suppose that I should try the correct mix, but I am also interested in exploring other mixes as well.  I cant help thinking that there may be a cheaper alternative with less or no Kr and Xe.

Since getting helium is the main problem, and I have that now, I have considered ordering just a Kr + Xe mix and blend that to taste with the other three.

That's the long answer.  The short answer is I'm not sure what to do gas-wise yet.:huh:

kcd

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on September 14th, 2012, 06:11 AM

Quote from FaradayEZ on September 14th, 2012, 05:35 AM

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on September 14th, 2012, 04:36 AM

got the buckets done:

use 1/8" pipe to 1/4" tube fittings, cut off the 1/4 tube side, driled and taped the brass to except the 1/4" rod, then the buckets will " seal" as the AL is taperd pipe thread...

cool. works really well!

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nice going Russ!!
I see you also have a gas mixture, and you have a frequency for the RF (what i was searching for...) Hoping it does the job.

(if you would use them) Do the alpha rays go through the metal of the buckets?

And how well is your compression/vacuum on the piston and cylinder? Should ye do a duration test first?
Like placing the piston up and put a weight on top and in the morning measure if it has dropped somewhat?


(Hmm now i go ahead of.."first get the first pop done.." 100% seal is for the engine, not for the test)

The rubidium will react with the aluminum to the point where it probably will react a little bit. Alpha radiation is the type from thorium and rubidium , it probably will not make it through the bucket but it still there for a "purpose that is not really known"...  stated from Bob
Ah yes,

Update 7 video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6w1m1S2DftI

As far as pressure / vac test...

10 hrs it dropped from -28 to about -26 so on the vac side of things... Its good! And really the gas is more prone to externail gas gettin in... So a pressure test is not really nessacery.

A new seal may help and the bottom glass port is cracked... May be where the leek is...

Also the fittings holding the eletrods and such are not over tight... I can still Move the eletrods even while it's tight... So all in all I'm happy with it!!!


Thx ~Russ

The Reason to use alpha radiation/ionization.

Alpha radiation is an ionized helium nucleus, a helium atom without its two electrons that occasionally comes out of the nucleus another atom at high energy. This is called a double ionized helium atom. This ion has a positive charge and when it flies through the air, it leaves a trail of ionize air along its flight path. That flight path is limited to only a few inches. It doesn’t take much resistance to slow this particle down so that it will reacquire its two electrons and become ordinary helium.

But the path of ionization that this particle leaves behind can becomes a “leader” for an electric spark to follow in the same way that a scratch on the surface of glass will provide a weak point or path that the plate of glass will follow when it breaks during bending.

A leader is a hot, highly conductive channel of plasma that plays a critical part during dielectric breakdown during the formation of a long electric spark.

This ionization track is like a vapor cloud that a jet plane leaves when it flies at high altitude but only very much smaller.

The ionization leader becomes a very thin short circuit that the spark will follow as it finds its way from a cathode to an anode.

The function of alpha radiation in the papp process is to reduce the electric voltage that is required to jump across a spark gap.

Because he does not use alpha ionization, this is why J Rohner says he needs 400K volts to jump his spark gap and the original papp design which uses radioactive alpha ionization needs only 40K volts.

The bucket design is not effective.

In your bucket design, the alpha particles will  be almost completely blocked by the metal of the bucket.

A better design is to affix a large grained thorium powder (5 micron) to an aluminum or copper ribbon substrate so that one side of the powder grain is exposed to the air.

Radioactive powder is very dangerous.

It is important to firmly attach the particles to the substrate so they do not fly around during handling.

Nano-sized powder grains are extremely dangerous because the alpha radiation will cause the nanopowder to evaporate and fly around in the air.

Always use a large micro-grain sized powder and a perfect particle breathing filter when working with alpha emitting powders. Breathing just a few grains of this fine powder without particle filtration will eventually kill you if they get inside your body.  

The Reason for a powder.

Alpha radiation is self-shielding, which means that alpha particles only emit from the surface of an element. It cannot get through any depth of the thorium metal so a powder will maximize the surface area of the thorium.

Welding the particles to the substrate.

Thorium has a high melting point, If the copper or aluminum ribbon substrate is heated to just below melting point, the thorium powder will weld to the surface onto the ribbon.

Checking to see if you alpha emitting device works.

Whatever your design will be, you can check the effectiveness of your design by placing this device into a cloud chamber to see if the alpha particles are becoming airborne.  

A cloud chamber is cheap and easy to build.

A commensal radiation counter is also effective but relatively expensive.

Rubidium is dangerous if it vaporizes.

Do not use rubidium because it melts(103F) at too low of a temperature and it might explode when exposed to  air or water.








.

Quote from CuriousChris on September 15th, 2012, 03:32 AM

I have been trying to stay quiet but the "little heads" faux pax needs attending to.
 
Of course Feynman knew. Why do you think he pulled the plug.

If you have a gas/plasma in a contained area that is rapidly heated. What do you think is going to happen? Add to that too much energy, a poorly designed glass envelope or any number of 'failure modes' and you get a firecracker.

The important thing to note is the energy expended by that shockwave is less than the electrical energy input into the flashtube. The rest being expended as heat and electromagnetic waves (light).

In other words don't mistake an exploding flashtube for some sort of overunity device.

I am bemused by the following comment from zerwell "the kit is worth a lot more than the $350...just in intelectual property alone"
I hope that he is not talking about how to get a spark plug to fire. That IP has been common knowledge for rather a long time.

CC,

You do make a very good point here, and I do appreciate you response.  It's like the old TV show 'Point and Counter-Point' - it keeps things interesting!

So hang around and keep up the good work!

Sincerely,

kcd

Thanks for the informative post Axil and Kc, good job guy's.:cool::D

Quote from FaradayEZ on September 15th, 2012, 07:56 AM

'CuriousChris'
I have been trying to stay quiet but the "little heads" faux pax needs attending to.

Please re-read the post I was referring to in my comment before you attribute blame.

But I do apologise for being confrontational. I sometimes get short when on forums I see people attribute something complex to something simple. While I think Feynman made a huge mistake, its not because he has a little head.

Quote from Axil on September 15th, 2012, 10:33 AM

The Reason to use alpha radiation/ionization.

The bucket design is not effective.

Radioactive powder is very dangerous.

The Reason for a powder.

Welding the particles to the substrate.

Checking to see if you alpha emitting device works.

Rubidium is dangerous if it vaporizes.

Some excellent points Axil.
Particularly about the buckets, I had wondered myself how they could play into the effect if the contents are sealed.

Russ do you do this fulltime? because your work is exceptional and must take a significant amount of time. just reverse engineering the dimensions is a gem.

Quote from CuriousChris on September 15th, 2012, 04:23 PM

Quote from FaradayEZ on September 15th, 2012, 07:56 AM

'CuriousChris'
I have been trying to stay quiet but the "little heads" faux pax needs attending to.

Please re-read the post I was referring to in my comment before you attribute blame.

But I do apologise for being confrontational. I sometimes get short when on forums I see people attribute something complex to something simple. While I think Feynman made a huge mistake, its not because he has a little head.

Quote from Axil on September 15th, 2012, 10:33 AM

The Reason to use alpha radiation/ionization.

The bucket design is not effective.

Radioactive powder is very dangerous.

The Reason for a powder.

Welding the particles to the substrate.

Checking to see if you alpha emitting device works.

Rubidium is dangerous if it vaporizes.

Some excellent points Axil.
Particularly about the buckets, I had wondered myself how they could play into the effect if the contents are sealed.

Russ do you do this fulltime? because your work is exceptional and must take a significant amount of time. just reverse engineering the dimensions is a gem.

If you read the patents, the inventor stated that the helium is consumed... This may me such little Helium that the thorium may emit just enough to keep the gas stable... That was My thought on it. (see earlier posts)

Chris, i work a full time job including long hrs and weekends, have 2 kids, ( 2&3 year old), volunteer at my church as much as I can and try to keep wife happy, keep the forums up and running, keep my webpage up and up try to respond to my email (have about 1000 emails in my in box i havent goten to respond to) make my videos and keep my self sane! Lol im what you call "dedicated" lol

Oh a did I mention the 100's of YouTube comments and messages? Lol

It helps to be surrounded by people that are just as decatated, hence why I hate to see people have conflicts on here, I respect everyone has opinions but I still got to keep it some what positive! ;)

I'm quite the eazy going guy, Do what you got to do, give and be givin, help and be help, know one can do it alone, it's about team work! If one thinks that they can do it alone... They probably have an EGO problem... Just stating the facts... And most of those people don't fit in well here on these forms.

This is since... Healthy debates On the subject at hand is the way things get done!

Statements directed "at" a person is not helpfull. Lol this applys to all (not directing this at you Chris)

Blessings to all!

~Russ