The Simply Questions on (G ) Gas Pressure Feed Back
Main Question
is Does the VIC PCB require a ( G ) Gas Pressure Feed Back signal in or not from Cell pressure yo vic pcb?

If not need this signal 
I can change out pin on the matrix db 37
to a unused pin and mark G spare

The known Jobs for G signal
1 on off cell or circuit when pressure reached
2 linear scaling of production  duty width etc

Does seam odd Vic PCB has a Clearly marked G  pin on IO
and Matrix K11 has Clearly marked G

=====================================

The Ground Corrected
Gerber update here

That confused me as well.   I think it is a case where the schematics were written at different times and as things got added label was reused. 

The G from K2 is the low frequency digital signal and is used throughout the whole system.  But as a connection goes only to K11 as input.

The Gas Feedback input into VIC is a separate signal and is used to increase gas generation.  It is an analog signal that connects to the 741 on lower left of the VIC board.  According to others this was not on original VIC board but was added later.  This is on VIC Pin 1 GAS.FB

The signal G created in K21 is the high frequency Gated signal that goes to K4 (in K4 labeled GATED SIGNAL with picture of wave train).  This is the signal that appears on VIC Pin 17 labeled [G] - Do not know it it is used anywhere else.  You can see in the top of K21 schematic it is even labeled "GATED SIGNAL TO CELL DRIVER CIRCUIT" which is K4

The problem is on the latest VIC Matrix we tied the G signal on VIC Matrix board that was there all ready for K2 and K11 to the new 37 Pin connector for the VIC to the G on VIC Pin 17 and we should not have done that as they are different signals with same name. In trying to tie everything together we both forgot they are not the same signal. 

Actually the ON OFF signal from Gas Feedback Control Circuit is [K] and it goes to K3

I agree having signal with same name is bad but it happens all the time though not so much in Stan's circuits.

Yes you need to disconnect VIC Pin 17 from Matrix Board as it not used anywhere else that I have seen.  Better label would have been [GS] or some other label as his labels are not descriptive of function.  My guess Stan put it there for possible future use as it tells you the current operating frequency.

Hope this helps.  I did double check VIC Gerber to make should what I said about what is on VIC Pin 17 is correct.

I like your fix to the Ground that is correct way to do it as it does not rely on external source to fix it.

ok here is the Matrix  main board updated
with g trace to db 37 removed leaving only k2 to g k11

Dan

I am here working today and week end if any other things come to mind
on these.

Note

I separated from the GMS Matrix  from the
ECU  injector cards and distributor cards 
(including air gate intake offset control and  egr offset control cards)

The  Air gate intake offset control and  egr offset control cards  are obsolete now
as already in  all aftermarket ecu ems units like speediuno etc

So I am working on the mappings for the Injector Distributor
Matrix board that drive it so we understand it

  once we know
 flow we can join to normal ecu /ems triggers on aux pins out of ecu ems 
likely will end up being just injector cards with Trigger signal inputs as timing is alo on most ecu ems now
Separate thread so not mixed up here

Dan

The Gms is coming along nice ,
the ones not reviewed

The Power board
Safety Card
Gas feed back 

Dan,

I have spent some time looking at the power board as I was thinking about build it.  Looks pretty straight forward just did not need it yet and I would have to get a few parts I do not have.

Attached are  more details to not for the gas feed back cards

KGF1 on matrix main board 
we have 3 card version 1 , 2(from gms) 3 from les banki

Hammer Wolf
Nice. I'm reminded how a vacuum advance distributor works.......by just using the pressure drop at the intake manifold it automatically advances the timing to match load and engine speeds. The basic idea being you can take a simple signal DIRECTLY from some physical state of the engine at that time and AUTOMATICALLY adjust (in this case pulse with and duration) on the fly BY ITSELF by just feeding that signal through a simple algorithm.

I wired the version of VIC that I currently have to get ready to test when I get the missing Capacitors.  Most of the wires coming out of the VIC connector are in the new 37 pin connector on new version of board.  The 5 wires going to coils will still be needed.

I have modified this board to make it as close to new version as I could so I can verify changes works as expected.

The first picture shows the connections.  I am using the separate daughter board and I have not mounted it as I may need to take VIC board out to install capacitors and as the connections to daughter board are hard wired this will allow me to move it as well.  The connector strip on left will be used to connect to coils.  I have same connector on my test system so it will be easy to move coils to this system.   I have not yet connected the wires to it, again as I may need to disconnect them when I install capacitors. (My test system is behind in the pictures.) 

Second picture I zoomed out to show more of the system.

Third picture is the back view of the VIC Matrix and boards I have completed.  Other boards installed have already been tested and are working. They will be used in testing the VIC.

Hi Earl
The Matrix is looking great
I am checking boms for newest matrix and vic now

i see you have , you own power  board in ,
and have mounted k8 k2 k3 and safety jump on the safety slot on
Dan

I keep looking at power board as I am planning on building but not sure of what the valve of the some of the parts.  SCR, shunts and blocking diodes.  Board is straight and should be easy to build.  Until then the prebuilt adjustable voltage regulators work for what I am an doing.

power board

garb bom attached for reference 
Dan

Dan,

I was studying the power board as I started to build it have couple of questions/ comments.  Was there a reason Stan did not just use a 7810 in instead of the 317T and SCR?

Stan's power card has a fail over capability build in.  It starts on the side (right) with fuse and if fuse fails it can be switched to second side (left) by using the on/off switch on the board (front panel).   Now my other question/comment.  The VIC matrix board will only support this if there are jumpers from the top half terminal screws on the VIC Matrix board to lower half terminal screws as there are no traces for this function on Matrix board. 

The flip side of this is there is no12 V input power to the side of the board with the fuse.  Again if jumpers where in place this would not be a problem.

In my testing I by passed all this by providing 12, 10 and 5v from an external source, I did find I needed to connect to lower set of screw terminals as they are the ones that go to safety card.

The both shunts on the board have an output line to 37 pin connector and to unlabeled terminal screws.  Other side of shunt is connected to 12V input.  Expect it was intend to be current sensor but they are currently not hooked up.

I was studying the power board as I started to build it have couple of questions/ comments. 
Was there a reason Stan did not just use a 7810 in instead of the 317T and SCR? possibly due to age of components
or amp rating at that moment in time we do not know if he ran from mains also with this power supply

---------------------

Stan's power card has a fail over capability build in.  It starts on the side (right) with fuse and if fuse fails it can be switched to second side (left) by using the on/off switch on the board (front panel). 

YEs we thought same and made 4 ways for fail safe on matrix 2 hard traces and 2 jumps
the  extra power points there are for if for some reason we  blow up 1 or 2  set of traces 1 or 2 side of power board
we can revert and jump for the extra i put them the only for back up.  some thing that may prove to be very handy if
it is you only fuel source and you need to re route power on the fly. . 

if any changes needed let me know
Dan



 Now my other question/comment.  The VIC matrix board will only support this if there are jumpers from the top half terminal screws on the VIC Matrix board to lower half terminal screws as there are no traces for this function on Matrix board.

Yes this Board is a Swiss army knife it was created to enable people to see and use the cards
we managed to preserve through many peoples hands and efforts , it was and is designed as
the engineering test bench just as Stan Wanted so we keep that general theme and fought to
go a bit over board with giving people space and options to jump things around
if needed , as if we advance 1 or more board we may find a reason to have extra power jumped around
color screen, sensors or new section to any one board etc

The flip side of this is there is no12 V input power to the side of the board with the fuse. 
Again if jumpers where in place this would not be a problem.

In my testing I by passed all this by providing 12, 10 and 5v from an external source,
I did find I needed to connect to lower set of screw terminals as they are the ones that go to safety card.

The both shunts on the board have an output line to 37 pin connector and to unlabeled terminal screws.
again not needed as vic has its own power in  it is a extra redundancy

  Other side of shunt is connected to 12V input.
 Expect it was intend to be current sensor but they are currently not hooked up.

mostly the matrix has a lot more than needed we did that intentionally  as we have new systems that could if needed run from it
for example if we have a modern pdm power distribution control and safety prior to main power into matrix
we could run a ecu or Arduino  touch panel in replace of resistor knobs and run them with software,
goal was to plumb the Meyer work and enable it to be modernized or at very least understood and connected to modern things in a step process , with out this being done people has zero chance of doing what we are doing together now
Yes it could be very much  simplified   we could delete power card safety card  , but some times we find things that meyers did for a reason so we wanted to keep the  things close as possible to his culture and planned design flow he had  in buggy so we have a chance to discover why when how and preserve the legacy for re discovery .
Ultimately it is a Engineering model and test bench ,

it is good to rebuild safety card and power card so it cements the visions that were left by Stan, some times we look at these things 1000's of time before we realize why he did it in the way he did.

Note also the Matrix pcb was sized to fit in the same size box as the 8xa/9xa box, yes it could be tiny smaller etc but we design edit for big large font  kid bench top  type replications ,

miniaturization and  modernizing can be done from these engineering models . lucky we have the time to put in place the step stones for people most in history of Meyers try jumping  ahead to fast using digital and other things and can never see how things work.  Everything is easy when you have the example to improve on but with out it we can see for 20years people could not connect the dots to create the matrix so it is important to keep the general theme so kids people or other can start at a higher  less stressful level from day 1 .

Dan

Ok, kind of what I thought and as I found out for lab setup it is easy to by-pass power card by using a couple prebuild 317 board and hooking up to to terminal screws and still use safety card.  I was building power card just to see what he did and half of it is a redundant route. I agree there seems to always be a reason why he did something.

reviewing  this more we have to remember that the safety jump card is there to power the rails.

so the power cards
Stan's power card has a fail over capability build in.  It starts on the side (right) with fuse and if fuse fails it can be switched to second side (left) by using the on/off switch on the board (front panel).   Now my other question/comment.  The VIC matrix board will only support this if there are jumpers from the top half terminal screws on the VIC Matrix board to lower half terminal screws as there are no traces for this function on Matrix board.

The flip side of this is there is no12 V input power to the side of the board with the fuse.
 Again if jumpers where in place this would not be a problem.
I am reviewing power  trace adjusts before making v2 of this board

Dan

notes
For those following

Stanley A Meyer Original Vic Matrix main board power card

Thanks for posting pictures,   I remember seeing back side but never looked at front side.  I was looking for picture when I was trying to figure out in he used small or large capacitors and also size of diodes.  I can also see he just used a wire for shunt which was another question I had. 

FYI I used 1N4005 for diodes as larger diodes leads were too big so if bigger ones are need drill hole will need to be larger.

Throttle Control Thoughts

I have reached a point in my testing where I want to be able to better control the voltage level of the analog signal.  So far, I have been using the Offset control in L9 (Voltage Amplitude Control Circuit).  While that works it does not provide a good indication of actual offset level.  While Gain is another control, I believe its function is to set an upper limit. Looking at the front panel both controls use locking pots so it apparent that they are intended to be set then not changed.
 
Today I took another look to see what Stan is changing in his circuits to change the signals.  He sets a reference signal in K2 (Variable Frequency Generator) that goes to K11 (Digital Control Means) this signal is used to generate a new pulse train which varies based on the need for gas, throttle control.  I believe what is changed is gate size (have not built circuit to verify this for sure but gate side is one means of changing gas production).  The output of K11 is fed to both K3 which produces the actual gate base and K8 which produces the analog signal.  The pulse frequency does not change but duration of pulse is tied to pulse size from K11.   K8 is triggered on falling pulse to keep analog signal in sync with gate.

With this you would think the Digital Control Means is the primary control for gas production, this true within limits.  The limits for actual gas production is controlled by the Gas Feedback System as it has override control of the system to keep too much gas being produced and it can also produce more to keep pressure up even if Digital Control Means does not request it.  It does this by controlling both the gate size and the analog voltage level as both control the amount of gas produced.

It does this by raising both if more gas pressure in cell is needed and lowering both if gas pressure in the cell is high.  Now there are some restrictions in the process.

Lowing Gas Tank Pressure

While it can reduce the level of the analog signal this does not override the level set by throttle control.  But the gate size it produces will override the gate size produced by Digital Control Means system.   The reason this is true is the 2 signals are merged in K3, Gate Generator, using an AND function so new gate will be the smaller of the inputs. The smaller gate will produce less gas.  Finally, if pressure in tank is still too high the Gas Feedback will send a signal to K3, Gate Generator, to turn off cell.
Raising Gas Tank Pressure

If the pressure in the tank is too low the Gas Feedback system can ask for more gas to be produce than being requested by Digital Control Means.  While it can increase the gate size this will not override the size set by Digital Means, again the AND function set it to smallest size.  But the voltage level on signal [j] can be increase and this will override the operating level of the running value for [J], as long as it is higher.

Dan a couple of things from the above.

Not positive about base frequency not changing.

Still not sure if level of signal [J] is being other changed except by Gas Feedback system.  If it is do not see input for it on schematics for it.  I feel like I am missing something.

One thing for Matrix board is the M1 output from GAS FEEDBACK on top of schematic. This is another case same signal name, but it will require another trace for it to work.  Separate input into AND function on K3 gate generator.  Current K3 board has input wired for this.

Note:  It is also possible that the M1 interface is not being used and that cell off function took is all that is needed.   

Noted the K11 and Gas Feed Back

I build a conversion card to allow TPS sign in from pedal or sensor into the k11
to replace k7 to make it easy for uptake to modern cars

Gas Feed back looks to be very useful card we  have  3 versions

1 Form schematic KFB1
2 From picture  KFB2 on gms ronnie made one we recreated  it close as possible from pictures
3 Les banki version KAFB3 a linear scaled one. 

All fit the Main board Matrix Slot

NOTE VIDEO TPS attached
 
attached

One thing for Matrix board is the M1 output from GAS FEEDBACK
on top of schematic.

This is another case same signal name, but it will require another trace for it to work.

 Separate input into AND function on K3 gate generator. 
Current K3 board has input wired for this.
Note:  It is also possible that the M1 interface is not being used and that cell off function took is all that is needed.   

noted
Pretty sure m1 currently goes to the k8 ,
if another trace is required please show where >

The are 2 outputs from K11 Digital Means card the come from the same point one labeled M and M1 same signal.  M goes to K8 Analog Voltage Generator and M1 goes to K3 Gate Pulse Frequency Generator.  This keeps everything in sync and you have these traces on Matrix board.

Now there is another M1 in the Gas Feedback Schematic top right of center it goes to Full Cell Pressure Gage.  It is this M1 signal I was questioning.  Actually I am trying to understand how the the Digital Means and Gas Feedback work together at this point.. My comment right above is miss leading the way it is written.  It should have say the Gas Feedback M1 signal may not be use in later versions.  Thing at bothers me about this M1 going to K3 is it is not in sync with rest of system.  It may just be a case that there was a planned use for this when schematic was drawn than did not work out.

The reason I built the schematics into boards as I wanted to see what the signal really looked like at each point.  I also wanted to know what the controls did to the signals. For example in K3 I found that the gate signal cannot be larger than 75hz as signal flat lines after that.  This is a system limit that is no documented anywhere that I read.  This also means analog signal cannot be higher than 75hz and gate pulse are less that 75hz.

Main reason I have not yet build the Digital Means and Gas Feedback as they are operating controls that I could get around by using the manual controls. Also do not have a cell so gas pressure was not an issue yet though I am being to thing that piece is critical to have a working cell.  Again you could do this with manual controls but Stan's Gas Feedback system should tell you what limits he set.  Even picture of gage tells you it low pressure as gage only goes to 15 psi.

Note:  One thing we need to keep in mind is we are looking at an evolving system and schematic are a point in time.

Bottom line I do not thing you need another trace on Matrix board.  I think we have already added one for Gas Feedback into VIC.

One way to look at both Digital Means and Gas Feedback is they are the automated controls on the system.

Yes Agreed with those descriptions

Dan

Earl just for your notes

as we removed the k8 voltage control from being a daughter board sitting on top k11
we converted analogue voltage control k8   to a db 37 on main board to allow easier
management and testing servicing ( as the original was pretty wonky

We than made the Tps card to become the new daughter board
 for the k11 since we have space alittle

so intention is new  tps    interface card  is mounted on top k11

here is a pic shoring the ribbon connect , I have done it in this way  to show a
step from old to new allowing people to see how to get k11 connected to a modern car tps and  ecu /ems
of coarse once we test and finish we can reduce size , i just did not want to change anything with stand k11 until
we left the bread crumbs for people to follow

of coarse  once these tested 
version 2 can be merged  1 card db37 to reduce assemble size and assemble mistakes /questions

Dan