In my test system I had build K8 as a separate card as I needed that piece.  Thanks for the picture it is a big help show what your are doing. 

Dan,

I decided to compare the Gas Feedback Control Card to the schematic in figure 11.  I found several places where they do not match.  What I did was compare every path on schematic and matched it to trace/value in the Gerber Files I used Gerber_gas (2).   It will take me a like while to put what I found it a format that can be followed.  At this point just notes and marked up copy of schematic.  I also want to check documentation on 4046 and 4047 as some of the inputs are not labeled on schematic but there appears to be some errors with both.

This just to let you know I found some differences.

One big item is the pin numbers on HCF4046 on schematic are not right for starters the VCC and GND supply pins are wrong.  Pin 8 is Vss but that is the ground pin (negative supply) pin 16 is Vdd the positive supply.  I sure of this as I hooked them up wrong in my test system  and burned out the chip, (note; same Chip used on VIC board in PLL mode).  Mode of use here is VCO and only some of the pins are used.

While I found what look like errors most of it makes sense until I got to A26 HCF4047 I included pin functions and hook up for different configuration in attached word document. The capacitor and resistor and output look like this is the right chip but everything else looks wrong include no power to chip VDD and ground.

For now I put my comments in attached Word document as that was how a created them.  I can extra them and post here but that will take additional time.

Ok Thanks I will try editing the changes now  and post update

Dan

Gas Feed back Circuit updated here
I have tried to carefully make the changes in word document

if i missed any let me know i correct asap

Dan

Dan,

Changes you made look good. 

We still need to provide power to pin and ground to 4047 they are missing.
1) Pin 3 should go to pin 1 through Capacitor (not Resistor)  just switch input to pins 1 and 2
2) Pin 3 should go to pin 2 through resistor (not capacitor) just switch input to pins 1 and 2

Looking at table in word document and schematic which shows two inputs I believe the rest should be
3) Pins 4, and 14 should go Vdd +10V  (pin 14 is chip Vdd supply)
4) Pins 5, 6, 7 and 9 should all go GND  (pin 7 is chip ground)
5) Pin 10 is output (current trace is OK) 
6) Pins 8 and 12 are inputs from 4001
This is from the Function Terminal Connections table in the word document I set from the 4047 Data Sheet and is from the Retriggerable Line.

The other thing I just noticed is VDD and GND are missing from the 4001 chip and all the 471 chips A34, A37, A38, and A39.
For 471   VDD is on Pin 7 and GND is on Pin 4
For 14001 VDD is on Pin14 and GND is on Pin 7

Missing GND and Supply lines is one problem with working with a Schematic as these are left off to make circuit easier to read.  I avoided this problem when I did my test system as I redrew circuits to do layout and used the chip pinout for each chip.  FYI there are cases where you do not need them on a 741 chip but it is saver to put them in.  When I did my review of this board I forgot to look for them.

I will try to mark up the 4047 connections and will post later.

I had plan on building at least the lower have of circuit as I want to see what the 11/12 output looks like to make sure this input is the correct on for the VIC card.  I am going to assume when I test this that Voltage Output Transducer is a voltage level.  It should be fairly easy for me to make changes I need for this part of the board that I have.

Fix to A38

I was going to modify my board so I could do some testing and need to add this trace.
I was double checking Gerber to make sure I did correct one and notice we added connection from 6 to wrong pin on A38 it should go to Pin 2 and NOT Pin 3

I am almost done building lower half of the card just need to add this missing trace and the missing power and grounds to 741. 

Been busy doing hardware work.  Installed a few capacitors that arrived on VIC board, hardwired patch into my test system and started to build part of the Gas Feedback board so I could test the lower half.

It appears the lower half is the interface with the pressure sensor and K8.  The break point is the limit switch.  The upper half appears to circuits needed to drive what I assume is a digital pressure gage.

The pictures below show the lower half with components installed.  The back side shows the jumpers I installed to provide power (red) and ground (green) to 741.  The only other change is is the jumper between pins 2 and 8 of A38.  Only change I made to upper side is to provide power to and ground to 741.  As I do not plan on using that part of board for my initial testing have not yet made any other changes to upper half of board. 

Using 37 pin breakout board I have already tested that all the board outputs and inputs appear on the correct pins of the 37 pin connector.  I also verified that jumpers I installed made the proper connections as I installed them.  Good thing I check from front side as I got first power jumper I installed on wrong pin.

To get ready for the testing I did a couple of tests on K8 to find out more about [6].  At that point in circuit it is around a 200mv analog signal with about a 5 volt dc offset.  I did try applying a 2v DC offset to signal to see what would happen and signal jumped to 10 volts.  I will look at this some more during my testing of the Gas Feedback card.

In my testing I am going to make the assumption that the Voltage Output Transducer provides a voltage between 0 and 10 Volts (VEE).  It also looks like if it is below 2v the PRESS OFF SET raises it to at least 2 volts so 741 can process signal.

I will report with I find.

ok great I am making corrections for this gas feed back card as you mention

also notes on building out the auto start and autofill and tps  card I make 2 pc of each
will send

note the sensor below is from lez banki not same Meyer Sensor as this circuit for auto start  just on off
Auto start – simple circuit which activates the remote control for 3 seconds to start the generator when the set gas pressure is reached
This is a New Feature we added to the Main Board Matrix it allow cell to pressurize fuel rail before engine start
We merged onto the board db37 and added the twin tank and water pump auto fill and balancer
in casw you have to measure cell level for capacitance or water tank level and control refill pumps
and or have a cascade tank ( main tank fill little tank above cell ) or tank balance such as a plane or catamaran

Description

Generator auto-start circuit description.
This design is for electric start generators which are supplied with remote controls.
(Note: It could also be used with electric start generators WITHOUT remote control BUT would need additional, rather complex circuitry.)
The idea is simple: When the preset gas pressure is reached, the generator (engine) starts automatically.
Since all the electronic engine management control facilities in this design are already in place, this optional circuit which performs the auto- start function is very simple indeed!
Operating conditions are as follows:
After powering up the entire system, gas (HYDROXY) pressure rises. When it reaches the pre-set limit, the pressure regulator circuit generates a control pulse. The VERY FIRST pulse will SET the LATCH. Its output goes HIGH and remains HIGH. (Until power is turned OFF. At power-up, everything is RE-SET.)
Now, the LATCH ignores ALL further control pulses. As its output is DC coupled to the ‘Clock’ input of the ONE-SHOT, a SINGLE pulse with a set time constant is generated.
For the duration of the pulse, a MOSFET (which drives a relay) is turned ON. The relay contacts are wired across the remote control’s ON-button. (Pulse duration depends on the time required by the remote control to start the engine.)
The circuit is based on a 4013 dual D-type F/F (Flip-Flop). The first section is a LATCH and the second is used as a ONE-SHOT pulse generator which drives a MOSFET & relay.
It works as follows:
At power-on, LATCH IC1A is RESET by C2 (0.1u) & R3 (1M) and the ONE-SHOT (IC1B) is RESET by C3 (220n) & R5 (8M2).
When power is applied to the electrolyzer, gas pressure starts to build up. As it reaches the pre-set pressure level for the first time, a positive control pulse is generated by the pressure regulator circuit. (The design provides both positive and negative going control pulses.)
The very first control pulse (applied to pin 6) SETs the LATCH IC1A.
(Once the LATCH is SET, all subsequent control pulses are ignored.)
The output (pin 1) of the LATCH (IC1A) is DC coupled to the ‘Clock’ input (pin 11) of ONE-SHOT IC1B. Before the first clock pulse arrives at its clock input, its Q output (pin 13) is LOW. As resistor R5 (8M2) is connected between its Q output and RESET, its RESET input (pin10) is also LOW. Since its D (Data) input (pin 9) is connected to the + supply rail, its output goes HIGH during the positive going transition of the pulse to its clock input (pin 11).
The output of ONE-SHOT (IC1B) is now HIGH while its RESET input (pin 10) is still LOW, current starts to flow from the HIGH output, through R5 (8M2), to the RESET input.
When the voltage reaches the RESET threshold, the ONE-SHOT RESETS (its output snaps LOW) and its pulse is terminated.
The entire cycle just described is a strictly ONCE ONLY event!
Only when the generator is stopped and re-started can the above cycle be repeated.
The circuit can be turned OFF or ON in order to select MANUAL or AUTO- START.

2 parts to circuit
1 auto fill 2 tanks 2 pumps ( 2 sensor (can be water ultrasonic) 1 for each tank or 1 for cell 1 for mini tank ) 2 color screen
2 auto start simply on off pressure switch either 2bar or a 6 bar on fuel rail or on cell

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/communication-wireless-development-tools/8430812/

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/remote-control-systems-kits/6729035/

https://www.conrad.com/p/mater-pressure-switch-xp600-g18-2-up-to-6-bar-1-change-over-1-pcs-583782
Dan

Hi Earl

Attached is the Next update for gas feed back V2

PLEASE CHECK IF I GOT ALL RIGHT

I started testing board today and have a couple of things I wanted to tell you about.  One the led outline on left middle just to left of 10 input is facing the wrong way.  Flat side is negative and it should be on the left.  This LED comes on when cell is over pressure.  (Traces OK just a silk screen change).

The 10/11 input is 0V to start and K about 8.5V both appear to be flat line.  Then when cell goes over pressure K goes to 0V and 11/12 goes to around 10V.  This means that it can NOT be the GASFB input to the VIC card.  (This is one of the things I want to verify as we put a trace on VIC MATRIX to this connection I am pretty sure now that is wrong)

Still looking at [6] connection the way it is if this is connected the analog output of K8 flat lines.  Still checking this.

Starting to get a feel for what the pots on lower side do.  But I did get the [K] signal to switch state as I mentioned above.  And I was able to move limit setting around.  I did put the 4.7k in like the schematic called for on the Limit Pot.  Did notice that it gives you a very narrow range to work with.   

I am in the process of documenting things as I do testing.  But everything in lower half appears to be working.  With exceptions I mentioned above.

I will check Gerber.

ok noted,

Section 1

re the input  terminal position for db 9 matix mainboard
which  pin do you want the  line to ?

Section 2
also if you have some word changes on silk
 please post edit on this pic
normally i just edit in ms paint

and I will update both so noted

Dan

Dan

First Picture shows LED need Flat on Left side - so it gets installed properly - traces are OK with that change

Second Picture is remove the line from 11/12 output in GSF1 section of Matrix board to VIC board.  We added this line as I though this was where the GasFB input came from.  Looking at Gas Feedback card and with my tests this is definitely wrong so we should remove this trace.  Now I have no idea where GASFB  signal comes from.

NOTE:  The 11/12 is not in the proper format for use on the VIC board.  Not sure where it or if it used but it could be used to signal that tank is over pressure to another system.

The [6] signal is not currently connected other that to the screw connector on GSF1 section of Matrix board.  I would leave it that way. Note: I had to use jump from Manual/Run switch on K8 to get [6] signal to GSF1 for testing.  Note sure it is even needed I will do a few more test to verify.  Could be this was a planned use that did not work out.

so what pin is the out
of gas feed back card
and what is that signal is it linear scaled or on off?

Dan

http://www.omega.com/pptst/PX176.html

here is part
data sheet attached

Note is is not clear if he used this pcb 1 or the pcb 2

Dan

Point is the input to the VIC card GASFB must be an analog signal similar to [J] and [11/12].  I plan on doing more testing on this interface and the [6] input to figure 11 to know for sure exactly what is going on. 
 
[11/12] looks more like an on/off signal which is either 0V off or 10V on.

That could be Voltage Output Transducer input on left of Figure 11 as input into reset of circuit is a voltage level.  From testing I have done so far (just getting started)  there seems be about a 5V range in limit.  Still checking range and found I need to use offset to raise level but I am early in testing that.

I am documenting testing but so most notes.  I do have screen shots of [k] and [11/12] when they change state.

What I do not see in the schematic and testing so far is anything to generate a signal based on low pressure. 

It would sure have been nice to to have some documentation that state clearly the purpose of each signal.  For example I can speculate that [11/12] is the correct GASFB signal and that the 10V offset does no matter as [K] killed the digital signal and Stan added this interface to keep the analog signal on cell to maintain the conditioning of water.  What I do plan to do is turn off the DC offset of scope and take a closer look at [11/12] is see if the analog signal is present.

I post the [k] and [11/12] transition photo's later do not have them on computer yet.  They will also be in test report I am writing as I go along.

Dan,

I looked at the version 2 Gerber update.  Data trace look good.  Still mission power to several chips.  See picture below

ok noted i do now

Also Note  We have a On off pressure switch in the auto start ( a non meyer board) 

So i guess the main goal here is see what signal the Vic card needs and which line is out to vic pcb on the gas feed back
that is the main job of this gas feed back card

There is another  v2 card from meyers it is harder as we have not got a circuit diagram
 but since you have studied this v1 so much you may see which is better and or what is goin on in v2 as it
was only discover from estate photos and ronnie had a crack at replicating it
I post here

Gerber where we are up to on version 2 attached

Dan

So we have

1 Version 1 GFB from schematic  ( working on it now )
2 Version 2 GFB from Estate phot and from ronnies effort  tried and 50%

3 Add on new a Gas Fb on / on the auto start card to control turning engine on once fuel rail has pressure ( does not connect to meyer circuits only power on main board.

Suggest we see if we can document and  understand version 1 and if we can get away with using it
to feed the gas signal to vic

it may have been a simply on off safety
where as version 2 make be a linear scale pressure signal

Pressure regulator module – decides the desired pressure ‘scale’ (PSI, kPA or whatever), Sets and displays the pressure limit and continuously monitors and displays (on the control panel) the actual pressure.

Dan

I looked at them briefly I appeared to have same basic gas feedback function and then repeated some of it over again.  Could not tell with a quick glance if it was all part of gas feedback function or he was using same board to drive different displays as it looked to me it was the display drivers that were repeated.

For example I notice 4046 used different pins but not necessary a problem as resistor in pin 12 for example is optional.  It is also possible he added the lower limit functions.  I started to look at [6] and [11/12] this morning.  Turns on the PTP level of [6] is only about 200mV and gets lost in noise by the time it reach [11/12] but then I am using a jumper and it almost gone by the time it reach GSF1. 

I have sort of reached conclusion that he was trying to some things that did not work out.  I see this with K8 where he set idle  limit and GAIN.  I have not been able to figure out out how he got a changing signal into board.  I look more like he read level and used somewhere else. For example I tried a couple of different ways to raise level of [6] none of which worked and using [6] without amplifying does not appear to work either.   

I will finish version 1 though that will take some time as I will need to order 4047 turns I have several 4046 as I order extras after damaging ones I had.

Do have one question do we know what the limit selector is?  Look like a switch but not sure if it is manual or meant to be automatic.  One of the things I am looking at is levels going to pins to see if it could be magnetic switch.  Is there a front panel view for this board?

  I have not been able to figure out out how he got a changing signal into board.

I feel that the sensor specification pdf i posted above  may be part of it
=================================
Do have one question do we know what the limit selector is? 
i feel it is for the high or low pressure of cell  L/H for example 2 bar versus 4 bar
Look like a switch but not sure if it is manual or meant to be automatic.

 One of the things I am looking at is levels going to pins to see if it could be magnetic switch.
 Is there a front panel view for this board? yes here


IN drawing below they have a Fuel Cell Pressure  A GAUGE ( from the part i listed above
and than it also show a GAS PRESSURE INPUT 

 

these diagram are looking to be for version 1  done by forum members

In addition, the gated pulse frequency generator may be operatively interconnected with a sensor that monitors the rate of gas production from the cell and controls the number of pulses from the resonant frequency generator sent to the cell in a gated frequency in a correspondence with the rate of gas production.



The sensor may be a gas pressure sensor in an enclosed water capacitor resonant cavity which also includes a gas outlet. The gas pressure sensor is operatively connected to the circuit to determine the rate of gas production with respect to ambient gas pressure in the water capacitor enclosure.Thus, an omnibus control circuit and its discrete elements for maintaining and controlling the resonance and other aspects of the release of gas from a resonant cavity water cell is described herein and illustrated in the drawings which depict the following:

some of the mappings here

Thanks,   I think I have most of the lower half figured out but did find another issue.  I could not get [K] to turn of the cell.  It look like traces going to K3 (Gate board) are all correct.  When low I am reading [K] to be 0.75V.   On K3 signal is suppose to pull input to AND gate low.  It does not do that only thing I have done so far is verify the traces. 

I use that mapping all the time.  One of the more useful references.