nice work loving the description
will update asap so

if any other  please send as you find i am working on k11 tps

i show  option for board mount variable resistors

Dan

Posted: February 15th, 2021, 11:02 PM

From Ronnie some while back

https://youtu.be/95ykCn96iXY

https://youtu.be/dHbLp9SA2Bs

Notes from Stan Put here for reference 

Dan,

Not sure where you are on making Gerber changes to Gas Feedback card.  In you have not made the Fix pin 11 input change Last one I sent above  you do not need to but if you have already made it that OK as well as either fix will connect it to ground.

I found another problem we need to fix that will make that change not necessary (Ok if you did it ).  Turns out there is another error in schematic the pull up resistor (to VCC) in 4001 is wrong it is actually a pull down resistor to ground.  Which means we need resistor connected to ground not +12v.  I send a  mark up later Gerber later.  With this change 4001 works.  Added 4001 to my 4046 breadboard to test it now does what I expected.

I will document all this in test section of document I am writing as it explains why the schematic value is wrong.

At this point next step is put 4047 in breadboard to test it as it is easier to make changes if I need to.

Yellow lines remove power connections
Red line add 4046 power back
Green connect 10K resister to GND so that whole path is now grounded through 10K resister

FYI Pin 8 of 4046 use to be connected to this path -  We removed it and connected it to GND by a different path optionally we could reconnect pin 8  lower left of long green line bottom trace as this is part of line path above and remove trace we added to ground to clean things up a little.  Second picture show this optional clean change.

noted making changes

Dan I hope you noticed I forgot to reconnect the power line where I cut it left side.

please mark all on images so we have change to follow many changes Dan

please post where you want connect power on a pic please.
i try complete all today

I added the missing power reconnect to first picture above its red line in circle just forgot to put it on.

Dan,

I now have tested in breadboard the changes we have made from 4046 through 4001 and 4047.
First picture is the bread board setup I used for testing.  I started on left 4046 and work my right.  Tested 4046 then added 4001 tested it then finally 4047.   I have already verified interface from A34 741 feeding 4046 works.

Second picture shows 4046 output from pin 9 blue trace and 4001 pin4 yellow trace - about 1 volt drop out 4001

Third picture shows 4001 output from pin 4 yellow

Still working on 4047 but then 4001 stopped working not sure why yet.

ok noted this too

I did get 4047 working had one side of resister connected to wrong pin.  4047 is a simple inverter that also drops voltage to 10-volt level as it is on 10-volt supply. I did check output of both pins 10 & 11 and they are inverted from each other.  This is the way it should work. 

Dan,

If you have not yet done the last set of up dates where don't do them.  If you have I will sort it out.

Turns out we do need +12 volts to resister going to pins 5 & 6.  I will post screen shot showing what happens so signal.  Basically the capacitor turns 50 percent square wave into into a spike at same frequency.  You only get that spike if capacitor is there and resister is to 12V.  But thing that messed me up this also only works correctly when the 4047 is hooked up.  My initial testing of 4001 did not have 4047 in system.  I have seen where some components do not work right without load in some of the other circuits. 

After connected resistor  on 4047 to pin 3 instead of pin 4 on bread board the 4047 worked, so we got that layout right.  I now can check 4047 output again the signal.  Turns out 4001 does not work properly as configured without a load on pin 4.   I was able to make 4001 work in a lightly different configuration but not with capacitor in system.  As Stan usually did things for a reason so I figured capacitor needed to be there just could not make it work the way I thought it should. (I expect a square wave but kept getting a flat line)

With 4001 configure as in schematic including Resister to pins 5 and  6 I have both 4001 and 404 now working.  The output of 4001 is just not what I expected.   The 4 picture below show the same signal at different points.  I used the input from 4046 on pin 1 of 4001 as reference signal CH1 Yellow in all the pictures.

First picture shows pins 1 and pin 3 of 4001 (output of first nor gate pin 3 is input to second nor gate)

Second picture shows 4001 pin 1 and 4047 pin 11 - normal output of 4047   Notice spike signal and not square wave same frequency.

Third picture shows 4001 pin 1 and 4047 pin 19 - which is the inverse of pin 11 as it should be

Fourth picture shows 4001 pin 1 and 4001 pin 4 the output to 4047 - notice only 2 spikes and the seem to be random which why I thought 4001 was not working.   This is with resistor to +12V.  If resistor is tied to ground the output of 4047 flat lines.

The spike signal must be needed by the display gage and explains why the 4001 is configure as it is.  The 4047 is configured as an inverter and it also lowers the voltage level of signal to 10 volt logic levels.

Still need to test the output amplifiers to the gage.

The Matrix Edit for power Area

I have made the last jumper  on the Db 37

PLease check all accounted for .

Dan

The Gas Feed Back Card  Edit for power Area
 Please check all accounted for .

Dan

Dan,

I did some more testing this morning to check the Input to Q17, the 2N3904 NPN transistor that is the final active component on the card.  Not much I can do other than check it is getting correct input as it is configured to pull down the signal M1 in the Fuel Cell Pressure Gage.  The resistor with missing value will depend of signal level.

Checked the input to Q17 a 2N3904 NPN Transistor.  Test was done from breadboard using 4046. 4001 and 4007.

Q17 is configured to pull down to GND the signal M1 that come from Fuel Cell Pressure gage.  As there is no signal beyond Q17 I captured the input to the base of Q17.

Goal here was to see what the input to Q17 looked like.  I was using a breadboard version of 4046, 4001 and 4047 as I had it working and can access all the pins for testing.  So, input to Q17 came from pin 11 of 4047 on breadboard.

Picture 1
CH2 - Blue is the output of the 4047 pin 11 (at this point from breadboard)
CH1 – Yellow is the input to Q17 base (Note scale is 1v)

 Picture 2
Repeated test except I moved 4047 back to socket on Gas Feedback card so input is now from pin 4 of 4001 on bread.
CH2 - Blue is the output of the 4047 pin 11 (at this point from Gas Feedback Card)
CH1 – Yellow is the input to Q17 base (Note scale is 1v)

I also put 4001 back in board and got same results.  Tried 4046 which did not work I expected that as I have a problem with wiring for it have not yet fixed.  But I did put input into pin 4 of 4046 so I now have a working board from that point out.

 I did check VEE and all the VEE points are connected.  Do have a question for you.  Is plan to provide VEE to Voltage Output Transducer and Fuel Cell Pressure Gage from Gas Feedback Card?  If so we need to connect VEE to 10V input.

Have not looked at Gerber Files yet as I wanted to finish above testing first. 

great to see the scope shots nice work 

Dan

Dan,  Now that I see what he is doing I took a quick look at his original board.  What he has done is duplicated the displace driver circuit in upper half of schematic multiple times.  All you need as an input is a voltage level to drive the VCO in the 4046 then you can adjust frequency to drive the display.  It is is in right range it could go directly to 4046 or you can use a 741 to offset it. Can not say what they are without knowing what input is from.  However, if you look on one edge of the board it says STATIC FILL.

Kind of typical of Stan's circuits if you find something that works you reuse it.

Earl

ok ,
So some questions and Notes   so people see what is occurring , Ver 1
on the Version 1 Gas Card from Schematic which we are error testing for placement on matrix main board for testing and use to effect k2k3 and vic. as cell pressure changes  ( this could be a on off but more likely a linear scale)
and whilst doing so provides  the option for progression of understanding of the features and options. to than progress
with stans/ronnies ver 2  and les banki's ver 3

Version 1 made from schematic   Current work focus
1 Ver 1  Is this a simply on off. output ? to stop production once pressure reached
2 Ver 1 does it have a linear rise on this ? to scale voltage up?  ( similar les banki ) ver 3 ) pic attached
to raise lower voltage and on off , ( remember stan said it never turns off 100%) 
3 did he simply replicate the on off? or does it have a linear signal to  matrix?

Version 2  replicated from estate photos
1 You Mention Static fill this is where i see it mentioned this card   version 2 does than mean version 2 is filling water and doing gas pressure ? if so we have made a better card on matrix call auto start auto fill.
so we may only need the gas control  or at least understand it if on off or linear control.  in version 2
2 did he simply replicate the on off? or does it have a linear signal to  matrix?


Version 3 made and adapted to matrix db 37  by Les Banki /Daniel 
1 Picture attached
2 This card is purely linear to control  scaled power to cell so not meyer design but adapted and shown as a progression knowledge point.

This Note is important as we have drawn each card with matching db 37 in out to match the matric main board to allow learning testing and advancement. So to achieve a working replication and detail notes for advancing or simplifying by have  install 3 card which can be swapped use which will eventually all work and may equal 1 final card which incorporates all the features show across all three, out of which i can see if there is a static water fill, than that can be omitted.

Dan

Here are bom's for the k11 and sensor convert daughter board. TPS
Object is to maintain same basic Meyer for study

Start on Matrix main board bom audit here

Dan

Please review gas fb ver1  gerber i sent

to ensure we got all changes done correct
as I will try order some new due to so many changes

Dan

Matrix board looks good.

The picture below shows the fixes needed to return 4001 traces to +12V  and to fix 4046 GND traces broken when we made that patch.

I have the board working with these changes.  I did have a wiring error in 4046 connections which I fixed and it is now working. Had wiring to Pin 5 landed in wrong place.

After I put 4046 back in board I found I had used pot with wrong value in breadboard changes the frequency output.  Path is correct and I had correct value on the board.  Still do not know what the correct frequency should be as it depends on what the Fuel Cell Pressure gage needs.  Adjustment pot on 4046 provides a huge range.
Only other thing left is unknow value pull down resistor going to M1 connection.

Sorry in delay in getting this back had a fuzzy head and wanted to void making errors.

Second picture connects +10V power to VEE - Need if board is providing this power

ok great working on it
Dan

Dan,
I mentioned above I had the wrong pot on pin 11 of breadboard when I was doing testing but right value on board.  So I went back and verified board was working an it is.  Turns out the 100K resistor on pin 12 is an offset resistor.  (Verified this with testing and by looking at data sheet for 4046).   If my case the 100K resistor is slightly under 100K and shifts output up 294hz.  Then when I apply 5V input as base out A37 I get get a 1Khz signal out 4046.  As you raise voltage to 10V is raises output frequency 50khz and input signal to Q17 final amp on board was also the same frequency.   Note:  The function of the capacitor and resistors on pins 11 & 12 can be used to set what every frequency you want out of 4046.

This tells me that Stan most likely had a gage that used a input in the khz range and it changed 1 for every 1hkz increase in frequency.

With this testing I have tested the complete path from Voltage Output Transducer Output to output on top half of board including all the changes we have made to that part of board.

Only thing I have not yet done and I am not concerned about is to change connections of [K] and [11/12] to 37 pin connector and test board on Matrix.  I will do that just to verify those change do work though I have verified paths with jumpers to Matrix board.  I will also finish up the test/analysis document and post it.  Most of that is also already written.